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We are talking Brand Manifestos with Anna Bolton
Anna's website for brand manifestos: https://www.brandmanifesto.co/
Anna's main business website: https://conversioncopyco.com/
Show Notes courtesy of Anna: https://www.brandmanifesto.co/articles/brand-manifestos-messaging-matters
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hey everyone welcome to the messaging matters show i'm your host todd jones the about page
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guy whatever i come up with this week and uh so
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if you're joining us and i have watched the couple previous shows it's kind of like we're talking about messaging every
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company i think has um your message matters which is why it's called the messaging message matters
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show and uh so what i like to do is get friends experts
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um very smart people on the show to talk about an aspect of
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messaging uh for your company i believe that it's good for all companies to
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pay attention to their message so today i am pleased to have anna bolton on
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and um we are going to talk in just a few minutes about
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brand manifestos so anna if you wouldn't mind introducing yourself to our audience
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sure yeah sorry it's so dark for anyone who's actually watching um
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yeah so i am a conversion copywriter and after uh about about seven years of uh working
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conversion copy content marketing i specialized um in e-commerce
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so b2c brands primarily but but i have a long history of working with you know course creators service providers b2b
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companies and um as part of that i um you know i started writing
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uh brand manifestos so the brand manifesto is is not specifically for e-commerce that's my conversion
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copywriting business but um it's kind of a spin-off thing that i was really interested to develop
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and um and just to offer to all sorts of companies that that feel they have a manifesto with it
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let me ask you this real quick um you you consider yourself a conversion
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copywriter for e-commerce or dtc direct to consumer or both
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yeah i would say both like i'm trying to figure out what the um you know what the search volume
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advantage is on either but but generally speaking of ecommerce like a lot of my clients they're also available in
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retail stores you know across the country so yeah it's primarily about b2c products
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um yeah um i i had your questions about the difference between d to c
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direct direct-to-consumer and e-commerce and i remember [Music]
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getting a little bit of a clarification from kaylee moore who's in that space as well
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and um my understanding um i want to say that
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you could correct me if i'm wrong about this and please do but direct to consumer and e-commerce like e-commerce
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is direct to consumer but not all directors consumer is e-commerce is that correct
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or i have it backwards i think it is backwards yeah so i think it's like uh d to c is e-commerce but not all
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e-commerce is d to c like right you know my first my first client natural com canada they're
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i work on some of their e-commerce stuff but um they're in retail stores so they're not only direct consumer they
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also have um they're also a wholesale company right okay that claire well
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i'm sure i'll forget it but the next time i ask you or somebody so uh but anyway uh but you work mostly
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with b2c brands and they can do either or in that regard totally totally and i think like d2c has
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been sort of a trend i'm usually not on top of trends so i noticed them a little bit late but um but now you know a lot
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of ddc brands are realizing that it makes sense for them to have a storefront because like shipping is really expensive um people want the
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consumer experience of physical presence lots of people just like shopping in person don't know who those people are
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but uh so yeah yeah yeah
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that going forward is gonna be interesting to see uh obviously my mom's generation and probably even down to my
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generation it's like you know shopping you know i mean she was always the ladies like the do
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shopping therapy or whatever and they like to hunt for bargains and whatnot so there's an element of that still exists
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and i am curious to see you know the younger generation um
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they're they're totally fine with e-commerce and shopping online that kind of thing and my niece is kind of a mix because she's
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like i don't know she's like 23 or 4. and she does both
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quite regularly and now that she has a one-year-old you know
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she has to do both sometimes you can't leave the house as much as she maybe she'd like it and uh sometimes she's out
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at target looking for something for for him so um but before we move forward real quick
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if there's anyone watching feel free to say hey in the chat and i think we have one watching so um we
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want to put on a show for them and uh so let me ask you this um
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there there's three questions i want to ask before we get going in brandon manifesto so um this is just fun so what
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is your favorite drink your favorite dessert and your favorite song
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oh okay okay you know what favorite is really hard but i'll tell you what i almost always drink now it's funny i was
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talking someone the other day about this how when i first uh like felt like an adult say the beginning of
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university i felt that like my signature adult drink was was like a merlot and
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like at that point wolf blast was like the really fancy thing to drink like if
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you were having some wolf blast merlot you were like pretty grown up anyway but then over the years and i
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remember too like i wouldn't i wouldn't drink white wine then because i felt like it was like the old the old lady drink and now i pretty
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much drink white wine you know it doesn't stain my teeth anyway so so there's you know some white
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wine consumption going on here but um favorite dessert i'd like just anything
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super super dark chocolate i would say at this stage and um what was the last favorite song
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yeah um okay actually it's probably like probably something by
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nina simone yeah but which one i don't know maybe like
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uh you know what actually i have to say that i don't i have very little like
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room in my life right now to listen to music because i'm either here working or like kids are talking so
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um yeah so that's the closest i can get something minding us about yeah you know um
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i don't if somebody asked me that question i'd probably go blank and it probably depends on when you asked me the question right
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because i get i get a little bit of ocd like it's actually been diagnosed um so song gets hooked in my head and in
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fact a lot of those songs if you get the digital jukebox those songs sometimes
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will show up in the email because they're hooked in my head they won't go away um but i was telling you before we
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jumped on i was like trying to relax a little bit so i had the youtube up and i was listening i had some blondie going
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back to the 70s and 80s um my turn and then uh irene kara and
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there's one song if i had a song that would be considered a manifesto for me oh yeah um
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van halen right now and the version on youtube where they're
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singing it in toronto believe it or not uh with sammy uh is the one i've heard it on the radio
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is doesn't have the same energy that it does in the concert
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setting uh so um it it's just all about it's really an interesting story you know i like
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stories it's really an interesting story because uh eddie uh van halen had written some of the music
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separately from sammy writing the lyrics and apparently they were working on at
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the same time in different studios and sammy could overhear him and he ran in there and said that's it
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and they put the lyrics and the song together and it's a very powerful song about starting right now don't wait for
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tomorrow so in some sense it's like a a manifesto
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yeah of sorts for me and um so yeah i don't know what i mean you know and i'm i'm very eclectic like
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you know i'm listening to classic rock one day and country the next day and
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maybe some r b from when i was younger um you know uh stevie ray von blues you
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know i mean you know i just kind of anyway that's how i am so i'm familiar
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with a lot of the stuff you're listening to either because my mom was really into blues or orbs like my generation or
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something but but you know what it's funny because uh my my kids who are like eight and 11
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year old boys love this one song that is kind of a manifesto song too kind of it's a piece trained by kat
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stevens it is so funny jam out to it and it's really actually
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like there's something about the syncopation we've decided it's like impossible to sing along to but you just feel like yeah everything's
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gonna be okay like the peace train is coming yeah yeah
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yeah well and the oj's had the love train right so there's between kat
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stevens and the ojs we got the peace and love train okay let's move into uh brand manifestos and
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i you know i looked through your extensive notes and i'm like okay we can't do all this
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but we can talk about some so the first thing is uh how would you
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describe and or define a
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brand manifesto yeah so it's it's a distillation of what
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your brand believes in and what you're here for but it's uh customer facing so it's a marketing asset unlike say
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like a vision mission or purpose statement it is meant to be like a piece of advertising
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um yeah so that's my basic definition so
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i i think it's you brought vision mission statement because those are things that a lot of um
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of um companies use how would you see
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the difference between a manifesto and a vision mission statement
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yeah i mean i i believe that the manifesto is an articulation of the vision and the mission and the values
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but also what we talk about as the big idea um it's a distillation of a lot of different messaging elements that like
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frankly i don't think we need to get too kind of doctrinaire about because often people they can be confusing for people
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people are like do it well i don't have this helmet do i need this element and um and there are quite a few elements
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right so uh big idea is one we talked him you know through our notes and our exchanges
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around having like the customer um the customer's enemy which is an element of positioning
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um you know and then again like you said the vision which is you know the end that you want to achieve the mission
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like how you're achieving it for who the values um you know what you live by all
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of that can be packed into a manifesto but again it's customer facing where
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sometimes um these sometimes say like vision mission values are
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more for your employees your staff your partners right and they often have less sort of artistry they're more corporate
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yeah i would agree with that um the division mission does sometimes i mean i
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think kinder hall talks about the value story we should talk about four stories in her book um stories that stick
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and one of them is the value story well that's essentially what the mission and vision statement is right what is our
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company's value story um so yeah there's there's a there's a
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subtle difference but you're right it's it's uh more mission mission and vision
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can inform like the brand manifesto but it's really more for
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internal so in the i'm sorry go ahead no just what you were just saying about kendra
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hall just sort of um reinforces how i feel now about like we all put
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different kind of labels on things and create our own frameworks and methodologies and
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um but there are many ways to like skin the cat of your brand
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yeah so um i wanted to bring that up um
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could you talk about in the notes that you know they may not always be called brand manifestos
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and um can you talk a little bit about that explain what you're talking about
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yeah like not everybody can not every company is going to want to have on their page like our on their website our
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manifesto um not every brand comes out with the kind of like full page ads
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where you would run like an apple think different manifesto type ad but they want to
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infuse some of the like the provocation the inspiration of a manifesto into their messaging so
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depending on the type of company the type of website you might leave it into their about story um you might put it on
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their homepage if you're doing something like kind of problem agitate solution or even like a core you know service page
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or like what we do kind of thing so um yeah it just really depends on on the scenario how you want to use it but
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you don't have to call it a manifesto if you don't want to yeah and that kind of brings up another um
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question point that i was gonna to make um not really make but ask you about because
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um in another setting the the manifesto thing came up and um it was a different
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you know they were they were freelance consulters like consultants like you and i but they weren't conversion
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copywriters and they brought up the whole negative connotation obviously because
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so many um diabolical people
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write manifestos these big ideas if you will how do you help a company or do you even
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get get past that negative connotation you say this is something that would be good for you
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forget the negative yeah so i think that's very um
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you know very much like depending on what has happened in the news cycle and and the point in time and people have
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fairly short memories like before what happened in um one of the most recent big shootings uh in america
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people were not talking about manifestos that way like you know i don't know like the unabomber
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had maybe been the last um mentally unstable person to write a manifesto and that was a long time ago
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right like when was the universe long time yes like the 90s maybe
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yeah so long time yeah and like generally speaking when um
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someone nefarious writes a manifesto or like mentally ill nobody really reads
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them because they're they don't make they're incoherent and they're too long so
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i think that those fade from consciousness fairly quickly um yeah
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yeah i think um you know it's understanding that people would um
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be a little hesitant because of that um but there there are also examples of
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manifestos that maybe a little bit more of a positive spin if you will um out there as well
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and i i like that you say you don't really have to call it a brand manifest i i choose to call them brand manifestos
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or business manifestos just to add that to the word manifesto to keep people
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from going oh you know is he saying i need to no i'm not saying you need to do that at all yeah you know uh
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so um that is um that's why i tend to call it brand manifesto
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um yeah so [Music] and there are some really interesting if
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anyone cares to just google like the atlantic um manifestos
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there's a really interesting article in the atlantic this bunch from a bunch of years ago about like what makes a
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manifesto some of the characteristics with some examples and you know like artists have been writing manifestos for
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uh since maybe the early 20th century if not before and they can be pretty wild too
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so yeah yeah um i i am
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i can see you talk about artists musicians i don't know if you're talking about musicians
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but artists in general but when you think about musicians every musician every band every performer tends to have
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what they call a signature song yeah okay there's a whole wikipedia entry on you
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know and i'll look through some of those they go that's not their signature song their signature so i actually have a
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strong opinion about what's their signature song but it's just kind of interesting and um
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so one of my favorite examples of all time is mark cohn who wrote walking in
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memphis that is exactly what that song is and the story behind it he went to
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memphis he was have basically having a creativity you know having a hard time writing and he was looking for
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inspiration and he actually goes to memphis because that is
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one of his greatest sources of inspiration from music and he walked all these things he talks about in the song
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he does yeah you know graceland and uh all that stuff and then he comes out and makes
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this song which you know i don't even know another mark comes on be honest with you but that is his signature song
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and i think there's a lot of that that you see with artists in general so you said in in the notes that
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it there's a long history of manifestos in business i guess not just in culture
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and art but in business can you talk a little bit about that you talked about something from i think 1909
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oh uh oh oh oh oh are you talking about um so you're talking about the walt whitman
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poem that i just i referenced or no i think i was looking at an article that you sent and they talked about something
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from 1909 but it does go back a long way though right yeah yeah it goes yeah and
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maybe you know the examples that i think of are more contemporary for sure
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um but yeah i think like you know when i think of why for example artists are so
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attracted to the manifesto it is because of something you know we discuss in the notes and that's because a manifesto
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captures this like you know someone at the you know the tipping point between destruction and
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creation right so there's something that you and that's what artists are interested in right there
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it's out with the old right and it's in with the new and what they want to create so
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um you know when they write for example i don't know there's like a futurist manifesto like i believe that was one of
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the big art ones or like the romantic manifesto um so you know they um they're ushering
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in this new new vision um so it's yeah it's very emotional it's
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very um it's meant to inspire people provoke action change the way people think which is why i also
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uh tied in you know in my own mind with the big idea um
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a brand's big idea because it often performs the same function um yeah
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yeah i think it's a big part of positioning as well totally yes yes
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exactly exactly yes one of the most recent positioning courses i took through cxl um it was all about like
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what is the change that's uh under you know underfoot and how are you going to
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like how are you the helper you know the heroes the heroes right in that journey to cope with whatever is
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changing in the industry yeah yeah and and so there's
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you brought this up in the notes and as well but the there there's just like
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it's teetering on a line between negative and positive right i mean you can go because it can be
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pretty negative you know you know because you're you're feeding off something that's negative there's this problem in
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the industry whatever industry i'm in and i'm here to change that yes and
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but you know is is there a bouncing act to be made is it can can you keep your
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companies from going too far negative when you uh work on a manifesto
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yeah like i think a lot of companies are actually oversensitive to saying anything negative so i i doubt that when
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it comes to like a real company like a corporate environment i doubt that the risk is that they will go
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too negative because there are too many people who are trying to filter that out right which is why you see so much um
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like bland corporate messaging uh that never addresses the problem right
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um but then you say say you um you know go down the food chain a little bit to some of these scrappier
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d to c brands um they can be very upfront about what's wrong in the industry because that's kind of their
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bread and butter like they exist to fix the problems in whatever market um
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so i don't know like say harry's you know everybody always talks about harry's shave dollar shave
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so that's why i think like razors were too expensive why are they so expensive it's just a razor so they're used to that and you look for
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those kind of beats and you see them in um like the harmon brothers ads i don't know if you ever watch those videos like
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squatty potty purple mattress murphy's ladder uh there are a bunch of them but
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oh chat books i mean like they're amazing and they they take some beats also from like say um
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infomercials and infomercials were very very overt and hilariously dramatic
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about like what was broken with whatever you know they'd be like oh my god like tupperware like it's so difficult
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you know so um hey my mom raised a family on tupperware or whatever like i didn't really watch
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those infomercials but but they were not afraid to go negative about whatever they were replacing so and then when you
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get down to people like us like entrepreneurs and digital marketing content course creators coaches
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sometimes i do think then you get too negative because you're you can you see
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some people going like too negative in their message because they're they have no other filters right they're like
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we're having a bad day and we we just put it out there and um so so yeah you do have to get that
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balance because i think um in a manifesto like you need to make it very clear what needs to change and why
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and unlike say in a big idea where you're or positioning a positioning exercise
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positioning statement where you might be saying this change is happening let's make sure that we survive this change in
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in a manifest so you're saying this change needs to happen and this is like how we're going to be better as a result
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of like how we respond to you know how we create this change so it's more active but then yeah i think
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that you need to like really be uh conscious of and test
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um how much of the positivity is remembered versus the negativity because um you know like say in relationship
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studies it's like i don't you have to have like 10 positives for every one negative interaction because
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the negative kind of has a heavier emotional weight than uh the positive
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so so yeah there's like probably there's definitely an art and there may be a science if you can test people's
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reactions uh to balancing those two so one of the things you brought up and
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this kind of is the segway one of the things she brought up in the notes was the type of companies that a brand
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manifesto is good for maybe it's some that they aren't good for um sounds like it might not be the best
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exercise for a corporate brand unless they have that kind of a personality
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yeah i think you know like the the first manifesto that i wrote was is
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you know was for a kind of corporate company like the kind of company that has uh blue chip clients and you know serves
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like fortune 500s um and yeah they're a service-based b2b business and
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just through you know like when you're in that research phase and you're um interviewing your clients and and you're
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getting you can kind of hear you can hear the manifesto or i did so i just said to the
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marketing team like i think they have a manifesto within and it was like um
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it was a kind of no revision situation and it's fairly like it's fairly you know bold and different and
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not corporate and they have it there's a whole page for it so it can happen
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now they're not like an ibm but yeah well who would be better for you had you
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made it you said a certain phrase in the notes i can't remember something like change something what was the word you
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use for the type of businesses that would be good for manifesto
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yeah so really any kind of business that is um you know excited about wants to be part
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of wants to drive change in their industry um and that might sound general but if
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you you know think about the people in your circle or even you know yourself if you run a business
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that is not not everyone wants that right like a lot of people um are more change averse they are like hesitant
26:59
around change they don't want to be at the forefront of change so you know for those people they might
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want more of the kind of like like the uh if you think of archetypes more of the like every man archetype uh the like
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you know the buddy next door kind of um branding and a manifesto just doesn't fit there
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so one of the things that was and maybe i was misreading what you were saying but i thought this was kind
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of interesting you hinted that manifesto is kind of wax poetic
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you know they they you what was the word you you use a certain word but basically is poetic
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in some ways when they're actually written um so can you talk a little bit more about
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that yeah yeah i think i said they use poetic devices and yeah these poetic devices
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all the time and copyrighting like alliteration and imagery and um some of the other terms that i can never
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remember but but they're like there um but i do think this is kind of your like
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like it should be an art piece it should be if you could take out a full page add if you you know uh could spare a whole
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page on your website to make a statement then you want it to be memorable and some of these like poetic
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devices make things more much more memorable um and they roll off the tongue they're interesting to read
28:29
yeah yeah i can see that and some some that i've seen when they're
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actually written they they play around with the size of the lettering and
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yeah it's really interesting and i in the first time i ever heard about a brand manifesto business manifesto was
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hanneke jerusa matt i never say her last name yeah a copywriter from the uk and she
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wrote about it and she wrote one as well and it was it was she does these little doodles really but they are they're
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drawings illustrations and um she used her skills to
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to make it basically make a artistic representation of her manifesto i thought really cool that she did that
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yeah very memorable too because that's kind of what she's known for she's known for her little illustrations that she does
29:20
for herself for her blog post which is really interesting so
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everybody you like when you pointed that one out to me a while ago i was like why didn't i find this and it's because she
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calls it a business manifesto and i'm only searching for brand manifests right
29:36
right yeah yeah though so you got brand you got business i don't know if there's another word for
29:41
it but those are two and then of course some people just call it a manifesto in my mind they're all the same am i i
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mean except for manifesto for life purposes but when you're talking about business context they're the same
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and it does it matter how you actually search in you know the search engine
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whether you pull it up and i think i've used about every different term that you can use that that i'm
30:07
aware of and and i think i think some of those articles you shared with me i had come across at some point maybe one of them i
30:14
had not so what can we i'm sorry go ahead
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well no like and it can be a book like uh you know i have the win without pitching manifesto here which is i just
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want to make sure that we get in this show that um i probably wouldn't have even thought of manifestos if i hadn't
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first come across blair ends win with our pitching manifesto so that's an entire book with like 12 uh
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declarations of the uh win without pitching firms so yeah my friend steve has written one
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oh yeah it's called the freelancer manifesto
30:53
cool so uh 11 big ideals to stand out and thrive um
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so that's awesome okay i don't remember when he put it out um was the 2019 is a copyright on this
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one i'm not sure if there's no edition and uh so yeah um and you know there's
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some other ones i have a another one by a friend uh about legacy and it's not really says
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manifesto but there's obviously some part of manifesto i think a lot of people when they write a book when they
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write their signature work there's that word again i think it turns out being kind of their manifesto if you will
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i likened it to draw you know drawing a land line in the sand putting your steak in the ground
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it's the same mentality and is um
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is it possible for us to over complicate it oh i'm sure yeah i'm sure like i think
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it takes a lot of discipline to stay on point with any messaging but i think that
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um like a really good manifesto comes from maturity so we all like in our youth have strong
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opinions about you know what needs to change and stuff but um yeah i think a manifesto is like a little further down
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the line when you really have perspective you have like hard-earned perspective that's when a manifesto can
32:18
become really interesting um like blaren's he you know his manifesto was written after i don't know
32:23
maybe 20 years working with the agencies um and then you like
32:28
you're not so full of maybe ego at that point and you're just in you you're
32:35
more purpose-driven in some cases in a more measured balanced way
32:42
yeah so if a company says you know i want to explore this manifesto thing
32:48
what do you tell them to do and do you offer a service to help companies
32:55
with that i do i do yeah so i guess i would tell them to go to my website
33:01
brandmanifesto.com and i have a download which is a readiness checklist
33:07
um and then i have a longer version of that uh as the blog post right now it's the one blog post but it's a big blog
33:13
post um with you know like these signs to see if you're ready and you know if you think you're mostly there then we
33:20
can hop on a call and talk about um you know how i can help so there are a couple of ways or there are a few ways
33:25
you can do it right like you could work with uh you could work with me or someone like me
33:31
to consult with you to bring out the ideas that you want in your manifesto so that's more of a brand messaging
33:38
consulting exercise you know it could involve facilitating discussions you
33:43
know between your team members um so the ideas come out and then maybe there's someone in your team who wants to write
33:48
it right um that could happen uh or you know you want to hire someone like me for the entire process but
33:57
um but you really do need the writer to be involved in
34:03
like the deep messaging work the deciding what needs to be in the manifesto and a writer who knows what
34:09
needs to be in a manifesto right so it's my best advice
34:15
well good deal i'm going to make sure we put your website link in the show notes so people
34:21
can find that i do recommend downloading the checklist i have actually done that um i was actually a little surprised
34:28
about what she said so let that be a tease if you want and um i thought it was good don't get me
34:34
wrong i was i was taking it back like yeah she's right but anyway um
34:40
did i make it did i put up too many barriers to a manifesto no i wow i don't think so i think
34:48
you know that checklist is good for the most part for anybody doing messaging of any kind really but um i
34:54
think you you know it's kind of a wake-up call it's like um well i've been having conversations with
35:01
people and the the you know you're a copywriter and
35:06
i'm a copywriter and what i what i've learned is that the biggest problems we have really go back
35:12
to messaging oh yeah and um you know you don't have a copywriting
35:18
problem you usually have and somebody actually put that on linkedin the other day very good post and um it's like well
35:25
that's what i'm learning and what what the good copywriters end up doing
35:31
i mean i would say the good company a different breed of copywriters they end up helping that do more with helping
35:38
people with their messaging you know and oftentimes they turn it over to the team to finish the work but
35:46
copywriters can help and as i say messaging matters so
35:51
uh it does matter and but you know it's it's also a evolution
35:57
when you just start your business you're not the same place you are 10 years later you know and
36:03
so um yeah anyway well todd i just want to add to that
36:08
something that i don't know if you subscribe to cxl's newsletter conversion excel that
36:14
pep layer sent out something and i was like oh my gosh you're so right so it's kind of like i can't remember off the
36:19
top of my head how he sees the um hierarchy or kind of like the the levels
36:25
of steps that you have to take so if copywriting is like really you know it's really at the it's one of the final
36:31
steps and then you have saved brand messaging you have like you need to have like a
36:37
point of view before that you need to have positioning and then before even that
36:43
you need to have strategy how are we going to win in what market and it's
36:48
like honestly todd you will work with someone who you just thinks me i think needs copywriting and you will find out
36:55
that like the success of the project rests on whether or not they have business
37:00
strategy right or positioning so it's really hard to like draw a line around that stuff
37:06
9 out of ten times that's probably you're probably right and i just put a video out the other day and i think it
37:13
did surprise some people but like and this is a oversimplification on
37:18
my part but like there's three phases of copywriter very much oversimplification number one research
37:25
number two strategy and number three writing and even with writing you have editing
37:31
copy editing so even that's kind of split up a little bit and i think it just maybe that help
37:37
other people understand a little bit that you don't just go straight to the copywriting you've got these other
37:44
parts to it so it's a little bit of an oversimplification maybe but as long as you have the circle that
37:51
goes back after like after the copywriting say there's testing but you make that just like research that's just research right yeah
37:59
yeah that's post delivery research i guess those are things that
38:04
you know um there's always got to be
38:10
the feedback loop i guess you might say you know and um some people are better at that than
38:16
others but it's definitely uh again it's an evolution the whole thing's an evolution so
38:22
um well i could talk to you for probably three hours and
38:28
neither one of us could do that so um but i really appreciate you coming on and talking about brand manifestos
38:35
my pleasure it's great to catch up after ages and ages so yeah thank you thanks for your questions
38:43
very good um one more time before people before we uh sign off where can people find you and how they can get in touch
38:50
with you to learn more about your product yeah so my original my conversion copywriting website is quite
38:56
easy to find because if you search conversion copywriter like i'll be right there up at the top it's
39:01
conversioncopyco.com and you can get in touch through the contact page or just follow me on social
39:08
stuff maybe linkedin and uh it's anna bolton and then for brand messaging i
39:14
also made it super easy uh bran sorry friend manifesto it's brand manifesto
39:20
dot co um and yeah there's a contact form there too if you want to get in touch yeah
39:25
very good and also make sure you sign up for email newsletter download that checklist so you can get on our email
39:31
newsletter and learn more as she progresses in this journey
39:36
thank you so much for coming on tonight and giving up a brief moment of your
39:42
tuesday night to hang out with me that was super fun okay thanks todd
39:47
we'll talk to you soon