Up next in 10
City AM's Opinion and Features Editor, Alys Denby, and political commentator, Cai Wilshaw, pick over this week's Prime Minister's Questions.
With both leaders speaking to different audiences, did anyone come away from that having learned anything?
Let us know in the comments who won this week's!
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0:00
Hello Kai, thanks so much for joining
0:01
me. Thank you. Are you wondering why
0:04
we're here? Uh just a little bit, yeah.
0:06
Well, I thought it might be good if
0:08
you're a Labour supporter, right?
0:09
>> I am indeed for my sins.
0:11
>> And I'm a proud conservative. I thought
0:13
we should watch PMQs together and talk
0:16
about it. Excellent. It's been an
0:18
exciting one. Do you think Keir
0:21
Starmer's going to get Badenoch's down?
0:23
That is terrible. [laughter] That is
0:25
terrible. Have you been working on that?
0:27
No, I I just I just came up with that. I
0:29
Yeah, maybe. She's been better recently.
0:31
>> Mhm. She's been doing well. Yeah. What
0:34
topics do you think she's going to go
0:35
on?
0:36
I think I'd hope she goes on Iran, but
0:39
she's not on Well, on strong ground
0:41
there.
0:42
Yeah, and she didn't get a chance to
0:44
really go in on the Mandelson stuff that
0:45
came out last week. So, I imagine that's
0:48
where she'll want to focus, but you
0:50
never know with her. She sometimes
0:51
misses her moment and goes on something
0:54
a bit old that that doesn't react to
0:56
what's happened that day. So, I'm not
0:58
sure. Yeah, sometimes she kind of
1:00
pursues a slightly niche
1:02
Badenochian culture wars vibe when
1:05
actually everyone else is talking about
1:06
something else. I mean, are there big
1:08
things that are happening that she could
1:09
go on? There's this huge meningitis
1:11
outbreak. Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty
1:13
shocking, and I don't know that any of
1:15
them really know what to do about it
1:18
other than the health secretary. You'd
1:19
hope the shadow health secretary.
1:21
But, it's not really broken into
1:23
national discourse yet. We're just all
1:25
following the news, right? Yeah. Anyway,
1:27
speaking of meningitis,
1:28
weird segue.
1:30
>> [laughter]
1:30
>> I got you some popcorn, but I thought we
1:32
probably shouldn't share a big bucket.
1:34
Amazing. Um Just just for for germs'
1:37
sake.
1:38
>> Yeah, exactly. Yeah, hygiene.
1:39
>> I mean, I don't know if you've been at
1:40
the chemistry club in Kent.
1:42
>> I have heard. Okay, so should we watch
1:44
this first question?
1:45
>> Yes, let's. Good popcorn.
1:46
>> try to avoid scrutiny on the Mandelson
1:49
files by releasing the documents
1:51
immediately after Prime Minister's
1:53
Questions last week?
1:55
So, let me ask him now.
1:57
Did the Prime Minister personally speak
2:00
to Peter Mandelson about his
2:02
relationship with the convicted
2:04
pedophile Jeffrey Epstein before
2:07
appointing him as our ambassador to
2:09
Washington? Prime Minister.
2:10
>> Mr. Speaker, let me start where I must.
2:12
This was my mistake in making the
2:13
appointment and I have apologized to the
2:15
victims of Epstein and I do so again.
2:18
The government is complying with the
2:20
humble address in full. But we are also
2:22
continuing to support the police in
2:25
their investigation. The matter of
2:27
process was looked at by the independent
2:29
advisor on ministerial standards. It's
2:31
clear the appointment process wasn't
2:33
strong enough and that's why I've
2:34
already strengthened it.
2:36
But it was my mistake, Mr. Speaker, and
2:38
I have apologized for it. She should
2:40
follow suit and apologize for a gross
2:42
error of judgment in calling for the UK
2:45
to join the war in Iran without thinking
2:47
through the consequences.
2:50
What do you make of that?
2:51
I mean,
2:52
he gives all these
2:55
boring answers. And the problem with
2:58
that, usually that's okay, right?
3:00
Especially from him. The problem I think
3:02
at the minute you've got is that all the
3:04
leaks in government mean that everybody
3:06
in that chamber
3:08
knows much more detail about the process
3:10
of Mandelson's appointment.
3:11
>> Mhm. And it just makes him look like
3:14
he's hiding something when I think
3:16
actually what he's trying to do is hide
3:17
behind process and let that
3:20
do its course. Yeah, I mean, that's his
3:22
style, isn't it? It's It's always kind
3:23
of rules and process before actual
3:25
decision-making in principle. Yeah. I
3:28
suppose what I feel watching this is
3:29
just a bit of disappointment in him
3:31
because I think this is such a huge
3:33
scandal and I think
3:35
in any other circumstances this would be
3:37
a resigning matter. Because as you say,
3:39
we know now, these leaks make it very
3:40
clear that not only did the Prime
3:44
Minister appoint Peter Mandelson knowing
3:45
he had this
3:47
association with a convicted pedophile,
3:49
but that he also didn't go through
3:50
proper vetting procedures and that he
3:53
was also shown highly confidential
3:55
information before he was properly
3:56
vetted. So this is all, you know,
3:59
serious just insult to the British
4:02
people.
4:04
But really the biggest story now is
4:06
Iran. He's right.
4:07
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's the thing,
4:09
right? I think when you see a PMQs that
4:12
focuses on political scandals that have
4:15
been going on for weeks,
4:17
I think it's off-putting and sort of a
4:18
plague on both your houses. Yes, because
4:20
even though you can accept that it's
4:22
really important and that it's pretty
4:24
disgusting how this all came about, but
4:27
equally now
4:29
the story is very procedural and is
4:32
waiting on other papers to come out.
4:35
And in the meantime, you've got a live
4:37
war happening all across the world where
4:39
actually the leader of the opposition
4:41
and maybe the real leader of the
4:43
opposition, Nigel Farage, have got it
4:45
totally wrong.
4:46
And so I get where he's trying to go
4:48
with this, but it sort of is a weird a
4:51
weird dichotomy, I think, watching
4:53
watching that first question. Yeah, they
4:54
seem to be talking to different
4:55
audiences.
4:56
>> Yeah, and at cross-purposes.
4:57
>> Um and I and I do think you're right. I
4:59
do I do think that Kemi did get this
5:02
wrong. I mean, I remember when it all
5:04
started, my sort of natural instinct, I
5:07
guess, was that we should be standing
5:08
with America as our most important ally
5:11
bearing in mind that America is still
5:12
responsible for our own security here at
5:14
home. Iran is a threat to us here at
5:16
home. It exports terrorism, we know
5:17
that. Um but I do feel like increasingly
5:21
that
5:21
it's looking like it was the right
5:22
decision not to get actively involved.
5:25
Yeah, but to wait and see. Mhm. The rush
5:27
to judgment, I think, it says a lot
5:30
about our political culture. People are
5:31
really
5:33
I remember on the day that the Iran war
5:36
started kicking off,
5:38
there was all this I was about to go on
5:41
television, right? And
5:43
people were obsessed about how Keir
5:45
Starmer hadn't come out with a
5:46
statement, but the opposition leaders
5:47
had.
5:48
He eventually came out with a statement,
5:50
and what became clear is that he was
5:52
sending jets to the sky, clearly, to
5:54
delay. He was on account of maybe
5:56
talking to military planners, maybe
5:58
talking to the Ministry of Defence.
6:00
But everybody was focused on, "Oh, why
6:02
why hasn't he said anything? Why hasn't
6:04
he come out as quickly as the leader of
6:05
the opposition?" Well, the leader of the
6:07
opposition position isn't having those
6:09
briefings, doesn't have as critical a
6:10
role, and clearly
6:12
she what she thinks doesn't really
6:14
matter, either. I do think, to be fair
6:17
to to that perception that you talk
6:19
about, I think it is because Kier
6:20
Starmer has does have a history of being
6:21
indecisive and hiding behind process.
6:24
And maybe that is the right thing to do
6:25
in the heat of a war. But I do also
6:27
don't blame people for thinking that
6:28
he's dithering when he's got a history
6:30
of U-turns. Yeah. Yeah. And also,
6:32
there's plenty of British citizens out
6:34
in the Middle East who want that comfort
6:35
and clarity. So, I get that. But we're
6:37
talking about, you know, half an hour,
6:39
an hour's difference. Yeah. Yeah, you're
6:42
right. All right, let's watch the next
6:43
one.
6:46
Mr. Speaker, I know he doesn't want to
6:48
talk about the documents he tried to
6:49
bury last week. He's going to try and
6:51
talk about anything else, but he's not
6:54
going to get away with it. I asked him a
6:56
question, he did not answer. We know the
6:59
Prime Minister was warned about the risk
7:01
of appointing Peter Mandelson. This is
7:03
not about the process. He knew that
7:05
Mandelson stayed in Epstein's house
7:07
after Epstein had been convicted for
7:09
child prostitution. He knew that. So, I
7:12
will ask him again. Did he speak to
7:15
Peter Mandelson about this before the
7:17
appointment? Yes or no? Yes. Prime
7:19
Minister. Mr. Speaker, I've already made
7:21
clear that he was asked uh questions and
7:24
gave untruthful replies. The government
7:26
is complying with the humble address.
7:28
The process has been set out. The
7:31
independent advisor has looked at it,
7:33
and he said, quote, "The relevant
7:35
process for a political appointee was
7:37
followed." Now, obviously, this is a
7:38
question of my judgment, but what about
7:40
her judgment? She wanted to rush into a
7:43
war with Iran without thinking it
7:45
through. At the weekend, Mr. Speaker,
7:47
three three weeks in she said, "Oh,
7:50
there isn't a clear plan behind the US
7:52
strikes in Iran." That's the question
7:55
she should have asked at the start.
7:57
The decision to commit the UK to a war
7:59
is the biggest decision a Prime Minister
8:01
can take and she got it completely
8:04
wrong.
8:06
So, I think what I took from that is
8:07
when he says, "Well, what about her
8:09
judgement?" It isn't I mean, it's
8:11
literally there. It's what about her
8:13
judgement, because [clears throat] she's
8:14
not in charge of making this decision. I
8:15
wrote what about on [laughter] my notes.
8:17
So, we're on the same level here.
8:20
Um so,
8:22
again,
8:23
he's right, but he's not answering the
8:25
question there. He is just talking about
8:28
what complying with the humble address,
8:29
relevant process. I mean, no normal
8:31
person watching that will just go to
8:33
sleep. Yeah.
8:34
Yeah.
8:36
It's it's a
8:38
it's a weird one, because to be honest,
8:41
there's not much more he can say without
8:43
fanning the flames, right? And if that
8:45
is his one big goal, not give letting
8:48
slip something that's not public, and
8:51
loads of stuff is public that he's not
8:53
saying,
8:54
then there's he doesn't have a choice.
8:56
He's sort of boxed in. He's just trying
8:57
to get through it.
8:58
>> of knows that. Yeah.
9:00
I mean, for me in that particular
9:02
question, I thought Kemi came off
9:03
better, but so far who do you think's
9:06
winning? Are we calling it nil nil? I
9:08
think it's nil nil. They're They're not
9:09
having a discussion. They're having a
9:11
debate. They're talking about totally
9:12
separate things.
9:13
>> Yeah. And then they're going to clip it
9:14
up on social media afterwards,
9:15
presumably. Yeah, presumably.
9:17
>> That's how this works now, isn't it? I
9:18
think PMQs has become
9:21
a spectacle of everything that's sort of
9:23
wrong about British politics. I mean, I
9:25
slightly disagree with you there,
9:27
because I think you're absolutely right
9:28
that so much Commons procedure is just
9:30
an MP stands up, reads a question off
9:32
their page, clips it up for their own
9:34
social media, not doesn't even
9:36
necessarily show the answer. I think
9:37
PMQs is the one time in the week when
9:39
they actually do have a bit
9:41
of back and forth. And when it works, it
9:43
works. You know, it is the one bit of
9:44
kind of linear debate that people watch.
9:46
But only when they're reacting and
9:48
adapting what they're saying depending
9:51
on what they've just heard. And the
9:53
problem with both of them
9:55
is that they stick to the script. That's
9:57
really both boring and also not the
10:00
purpose of it.
10:01
Yeah, I mean obviously it's at its best
10:03
when you've got two kind of brilliant
10:05
debaters who are great on their feet.
10:07
You know, I think we would all say that
10:08
the sort of Tony Blair William Hague era
10:10
Amazing.
10:11
>> was just about the best. But do you
10:12
David David Cameron had his moments. He
10:15
certainly did. I still get the clips on
10:16
my social media. Do you get those? I
10:19
mean, I'm revealing quite a lot about my
10:21
algorithm, but yes, of course I do.
10:22
>> [laughter]
10:22
>> Obviously. Nostalgic, of course.
10:25
Uh all right, let's go from What are we
10:27
on now? Question number three.
10:30
I didn't hear an answer, Mr. Speaker.
10:32
And he's right. It is about his
10:34
judgment. He has repeatedly told us that
10:37
Peter Mandelson lied to him. But he
10:41
won't tell us if he actually picked up
10:43
the phone and spoke to Mandelson before
10:45
appointing him. This doesn't make any
10:47
sense. The Prime Minister told us on the
10:50
record, and I quote, "I believed the
10:52
lies he told me." If the Prime Minister
10:56
didn't speak to him, how can he say he
10:58
lied to him?
11:00
Mr. Speaker, the process is clear. It's
11:04
been looked at by the Independent
11:05
Advisor. And she asked me about the
11:08
process and judgment on appointments.
11:11
She appointed the Shadow Justice
11:13
Secretary.
11:16
He said last night that Muslims play
11:18
praying in public, including the Mayor
11:20
of London, practicing his faith,
11:24
are not welcome.
11:25
He described it as an act of domination,
11:28
straight from the Islamist playbook. If
11:31
he were in my
11:32
he'd be gone. It's utterly appalling.
11:35
She should denounce his comments and she
11:37
should sack him.
11:40
Okay, so what Kier Starmer was talking
11:41
about there is this tweet that Nick
11:43
Timothy, the Shadow Justice Secretary,
11:45
made yesterday.
11:48
It's a clip of Muslims praying in
11:50
Trafalgar Square, including as Starmer
11:52
said the Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan. He
11:54
said too many are too polite to say
11:55
this, but mass ritual prayer in public
11:57
places is an act of domination. It goes
12:00
on a bit.
12:01
Given their explicit repudiation of
12:03
Christianity, they certainly do not
12:04
belong in our churches and cathedrals.
12:06
I'm not suggesting everybody in
12:07
Trafalgar Square last night is an
12:08
Islamist, but the domination of public
12:10
spaces is straight from the Islamist
12:11
playbook. Trafalgar Square belongs to us
12:14
all. It's a national memorial to our
12:15
independence and our salvation.
12:18
Last
12:19
night was not like football match or St.
12:21
Patrick's Day parade celebration. It was
12:23
an act of domination and therefore
12:24
division and it shouldn't happen again.
12:27
What do you think of that? Yeah, it's
12:29
garbage. I think. Um
12:32
I think it's become very popular to
12:34
highlight things that are totally
12:36
reasonable
12:37
>> Mhm. and to act like they're an
12:40
increasing creep towards, I don't know,
12:42
a Sharia state or whatever some people
12:45
would like to have you believe. Um I was
12:48
just in a a debate last Saturday about
12:52
Muslim kids taking having
12:54
detention in lunchtime rather than
12:57
evening time if they're breaking the
12:59
fast at around the time that that
13:01
evening detention would be.
13:02
That was perfectly reasonable, set out
13:05
in the Education Act in 1996. You can
13:08
take public holidays off. You can take
13:11
religious holidays off. All sorts of
13:13
different denominations take advantage
13:14
of that special dispensation. And it's
13:17
being highlighted as something that's
13:20
new and dangerous.
13:23
And I think that's a new sort of
13:24
development that wasn't in our politics
13:27
at least a few years ago.
13:29
Yeah, I definitely agree with you that
13:31
there seems to be, especially on the
13:33
right, um a new sort of desire to
13:37
reassert Britain's Christian identity.
13:40
Yeah. And I guess that's what Nick
13:41
Timothy's getting at there when he says
13:43
that this public praying is specifically
13:45
a repudiation of Christianity in a
13:48
Christian country. I
13:50
don't agree with that at all. I think uh
13:53
especially London, we're a multicultural
13:55
city. Um Trafalgar Square has uh Easter
13:58
celebrations, it has Diwali
13:59
celebrations. I It doesn't feel
14:02
threatening to me at all.
14:05
Um
14:07
but some things
14:08
do. I mean, say
14:11
you know, the pro-Palestine marches
14:13
where sometimes you will see explicit
14:15
Hamas symbolism, that does feel like a
14:17
threat to me. Yeah. And one
14:21
I don't know if it's a threat that's
14:23
grown or if we are just feeling it more
14:26
acutely because we feel like we're like
14:29
just the world's a more dangerous place.
14:31
Yeah, I think the Palestine marches have
14:33
sort of
14:34
changed the discourse around this issue
14:37
because it was so because they've been
14:40
so pervasive
14:41
and so ever-present. Like, you can
14:44
literally see them on the streets almost
14:46
every weekend up until recently.
14:48
Um
14:50
and so lots of this is downstream from
14:52
that, I think. Um
14:54
so, maybe it is Yes, it's
14:56
the this stuff happens more often, but I
14:59
think we've also lost the ability to
15:01
differentiate between
15:03
things that have happened for decades in
15:05
the UK as a result of being increasingly
15:08
multicultural, and that includes all
15:10
sorts of cultures, by the way. Yeah.
15:12
Can't differentiate between
15:14
things like that and this sort of
15:18
a new demographic change that also is
15:21
complemented by these protests and so on
15:24
that makes it feel maybe
15:26
different to how
15:28
things that have previously been
15:29
happening. So, I sort of get how the
15:32
right
15:33
think that this is a much more present
15:35
threat.
15:37
But I I'm not sure that I buy the
15:39
argument.
15:40
I mean I feel very uncomfortable with
15:42
what sounds to me from Nick Timothy
15:44
there essentially quite a sectarian
15:46
argument that like we don't want to see
15:47
Muslim people praying on our street. I
15:49
find that very uncomfortable. But I
15:51
suppose what he might say in response to
15:54
your argument is that yes, maybe these
15:56
things have been going on for decades,
15:57
but they weren't going on
15:59
um
16:00
for decades previously. Do you know what
16:01
I mean? It's really only a phenomenon
16:03
that's happened the the the the ethnic
16:05
diversity of London in particular is
16:07
actually only a phenomenon known of the
16:09
late 20th century and therefore
16:13
you know, not not something that we need
16:15
to conserve forever. Yeah, but but
16:19
you're I think
16:20
the problem there is
16:22
the only reason you can find an issue
16:24
with it, I think, is if you have a
16:26
particular reading of Islam and the
16:29
threat that they perceive a majority of
16:32
Muslims to to pose, which is a different
16:35
reading to mine. I don't think that
16:37
these kind of things are threatening at
16:39
all. No, I don't see it that way. Um
16:41
I don't see it that way either. I'm not
16:43
sort of deep in uh
16:45
uh
16:45
the theology of Islam, but
16:48
>> neither am I.
16:48
>> Um but I I live in London and I live
16:50
alongside many Muslims and people of all
16:52
different faiths and most of the time
16:55
uh I think it's an example of great
16:56
success and I think I'm sad to see Nick
16:58
Timothy kind of smearing our city in
17:00
that way. Yeah, but it it won't nothing
17:02
will happen because I think this is
17:03
quite normalized. I think what you said
17:06
about that reassertion of a more
17:08
muscular political Christianity, if I
17:10
can call it that,
17:12
is a really interesting trend that we've
17:14
seen in the last I'd say a months,
17:16
actually. Because
17:18
we've always had quite a multi-religious
17:22
uh
17:23
politics. Or at least I say always, in
17:25
my lifetime. Um but Christianity hasn't
17:29
really had a
17:31
a brand, if you like, in politics. It's
17:33
not really been used in arguments as the
17:38
starting point. I.e.
17:40
we are a Christian country, therefore,
17:43
you know, all these, you know, this is
17:45
why we act in this way, or this is what
17:47
we think needs to be different. I think
17:49
you're starting to see that from both
17:50
the Tories, but also Reform. I think
17:52
particularly Reform. So, I mean, you say
17:54
it's in the past few months, I I've
17:55
probably moved more
17:57
in right-wing circles. Um but it's
17:59
definitely something that's been
18:01
bubbling up
18:02
um among the sort of the more
18:04
intellectual
18:06
types, so you see James Orr and Danny
18:09
Kruger types
18:11
um
18:11
certainly talk about the need for a
18:14
resurgence of Christian values. And I
18:15
think a lot of the kind of young men in
18:17
particular who are attracted to those
18:19
parties see it as a way of bringing back
18:21
both that sense of community, which I
18:23
think is really missing in a
18:25
increasingly atomized society. Um but
18:27
also, I do think it's of a piece with
18:31
uh certain ideas you see, for example,
18:33
in that Louis Theroux manosphere
18:34
documentary about wanting to return to
18:36
traditional gender roles.
18:37
So, I think on the one hand,
18:39
Christianity's great, we are a Christian
18:40
country, it would be nice if people
18:42
would go to church more often.
18:44
You know, our our king is also the head
18:46
of the church. Um none of those things
18:47
is deniable. But I think when it slides
18:49
into misogyny and anti-Muslim racism,
18:54
then it becomes sinister. Yeah. Yeah,
18:56
definitely. So, do we think Keir Starmer
18:58
won that exchange?
19:00
They're still both not doing great, in
19:02
my opinion. I mean, it doesn't make for
19:04
exciting telly, but
19:06
>> No, I know. We've managed to talk about
19:07
it for quite a while, when it was quite
19:09
dull.
19:10
>> [laughter]
19:10
>> What we on now?
19:12
four?
19:12
>> Question four? Okay.
19:14
He wants to talk about justice
19:16
secretary. His justice secretary is
19:17
abolishing jury trials. My shadow
19:20
justice secretary, my shadow justice
19:22
secretary
19:23
my shadow justice secretary is defending
19:26
British values. I know who I WOULD
19:28
RATHER HAVE SITTING ON THE FRONT BENCH
19:29
NEXT to me and it's not him.
19:35
But Mr. Speaker
19:36
Mr. Speaker
19:38
Mr. Speaker, this is important. He does
19:40
want to talk about anything else except
19:42
what I'm asking him. Three times I have
19:45
asked him if the Prime Minister spoke to
19:47
Peter Mandelson, three times he has
19:50
refused to answer. We can only assume he
19:53
did not speak to Peter Mandelson. From
19:56
the documents published, we know he left
19:58
the questioning of Mandelson's
20:00
relationship with a convicted pedophile
20:02
to two of Mandelson's closest friends.
20:05
One of whom was also friends with a
20:07
convicted pedophile.
20:09
Asking those questions should have been
20:11
his job. Why did he fail to do his duty?
20:15
Prime Minister Mr. Speaker, so her
20:16
position is that the shadow justice
20:19
secretary is defending British values.
20:23
When he says Muslims praying together in
20:26
Trafalgar Square are not welcome.
20:28
Mr. Speaker, even Tommy Robinson, I can
20:30
hardly believe I'm saying this
20:32
has said today that if the shadow
20:34
justice secretary had made these hateful
20:36
comments two years ago, the Conservative
20:38
Party would have kicked him out.
20:40
Now, Tommy Robinson isn't some sort of
20:42
moral signpost. He was pointing out how
20:46
much their party has changed. They're
20:48
more inclined to his views and he's
20:50
right about that. The fact that he's
20:51
sitting on her front bench shows she's
20:54
too weak and has got absolutely no
20:56
judgment.
20:58
I'm going to be honest, I've sort of
20:59
lost track of Kemi's line of questioning
21:02
on what questions Keir Starmer asked.
21:05
She sort of asked the same thing three
21:06
times but I'm not really sure what it
21:07
is. Well, did he speak to Peter
21:08
Mandelson personally before the
21:11
appointment?
21:11
>> Okay, I mean
21:12
>> And I think she's right. She says, "I
21:14
assume the answer's no." Yeah.
21:17
From reading the tea leaves from his
21:19
answer, given that it's so simple to say
21:21
yes, but also from what's publicly
21:23
reported, he didn't speak to Mandelson.
21:27
Which which is sort of two things. One,
21:29
it reinforces this idea that Keir
21:31
Starmer is just a sort of hands-off
21:32
Prime Minister, the likes of which we
21:34
haven't seen for a very long time.
21:36
Um and the second is he didn't, in his
21:39
judgment, think that everything he read
21:42
was important enough to pick up the
21:44
phone and have a conversation. I think
21:45
that is pretty damning. Okay, to be
21:47
honest, I think you explained that
21:48
better there than Badenoch has been
21:50
doing this line of questioning. Um
21:52
again, look, I think that
21:55
they both just want to talk about
21:56
different things where they think the
21:57
other is vulnerable. Um and I think the
21:59
British public is probably more
22:01
interested in how this war in Iran is
22:03
going to affect their own household
22:04
incomes. Yeah. Yeah. And And that's why
22:07
I don't like when she sort of says, "He
22:09
wants to talk about anything else." It's
22:11
not anything else, Kemi, is it?
22:13
It's a literal war that we're asking to
22:16
commit forces to halfway across the
22:19
world when we know the state of our army
22:21
and our navy
22:22
and our allies are piling in on Keir
22:26
Starmer's side, actually. Nobody's
22:28
committing to to fight Trump's war for
22:30
him.
22:31
It's pretty relevant. Yeah, it is. Oh,
22:34
and let's not forget that Kemi forgot to
22:36
ask her question there. But like
22:38
She thought she'd landed her killer
22:40
blow. I know, because but but when she
22:42
is angry about something, she is quite
22:43
compelling.
22:45
Um I I
22:45
She's She's defending Nick Timothy
22:47
there. That's her job, but you
22:49
Justifiably, I think,
22:51
uh cross about these plans to abolish
22:52
jury trials. But so agree that she
22:54
forgot her question.
22:56
It It sort of reminds me a bit of that
22:58
period
22:59
um
23:00
early on in Keir Starmer's premiership
23:02
when he kept forgetting that he was the
23:04
Prime Minister
23:05
and kept calling Rishi Sunak the Prime
23:07
Minister. I got I forgot about that.
23:09
When he was the leader of the opposition
23:10
at the time.
23:11
It's sort of quite quite quaint.
23:14
This they're both
23:15
finally settling into their roles. You'd
23:17
hope that they have by now. They're
23:20
Yeah, let's not forget they're actually
23:21
both sort of quite new to politics.
23:24
Kemi Badenoch was a elected in 2019.
23:27
Silly to dispatch box politics as well.
23:30
Yeah, absolutely. All right, let's keep
23:32
going. Next question.
23:36
The Prime Minister wants to talk about
23:37
my leadership. I'm shocked because his
23:39
former deputy has just fired the
23:41
starting gun on the race to replace him.
23:44
And I'll tell him one thing. She and I
23:46
both agree that this weak man should be
23:47
replaced by A STRONG WOMAN.
23:54
BUT I'M NOT FINISHED, MR. SPEAKER. I
23:56
have too much to say to him. There's
23:58
still
23:59
There is still There is still a lot to
24:01
ask. There is still a lot to ask about
24:03
the Mandelson files. There's still a lot
24:05
to ask. The Prime Minister knew that
24:07
Mandelson had kept up a relationship
24:10
with Jeffrey Epstein. The documents
24:12
released also showed he'd been warned
24:14
about appointing Mandelson. He claims he
24:17
was lied to. Mandelson had twice been
24:19
fired for dishonesty. So, why did the
24:22
Prime Minister believe Peter Mandelson
24:25
over the vetting documents? Prime
24:27
Minister.
24:27
>> Mr. Speaker, she asked about leadership.
24:28
When I see religious events in Trafalgar
24:30
Square, when I see Hindus celebrating
24:33
Diwali, when I see Jews celebrating
24:36
Hanukkah live, when I see Christians
24:39
performing the Passion of Christ, or
24:41
Muslims praying, that shows the great
24:44
strength of our diverse city and
24:46
country.
24:48
I've never heard her party call out
24:50
anything other than the Muslim events.
24:52
It's only when Muslims are praying. The
24:55
only conclusion is the Tory party has
24:57
got a PROBLEM WITH MUSLIMS.
25:02
UM SHE FORGOT her question again. Yeah.
25:05
>> [laughter]
25:06
>> Yeah, to do to do once is acceptable,
25:08
but twice I mean it's only quite funny.
25:11
It is quite funny.
25:11
>> And she'd sort of styled it out, but not
25:14
really. It was a bit awkward for a
25:16
moment there. Yeah, it was quite
25:18
awkward. Um I think she'll get away with
25:20
it. Um
25:22
I look, I think what I found frustrating
25:24
again there she's still going on about I
25:26
understand why.
25:28
Um and then Kier Starmer is coming back
25:30
with that the Tory party have a problem
25:32
with Muslims. Well, I think a reasonable
25:34
counter to that would be so does the
25:35
Labour party because we know that there
25:37
are several very high profile Labour MPs
25:39
including uh Wes Streeting who who have
25:43
tiny minorities and who at the next
25:45
election very likely face defeat by Gaza
25:47
independent candidates. Yeah. We know
25:49
that in many constituencies particularly
25:51
in Birmingham there are sectarian block
25:53
voting and we think we saw that in the
25:55
Gorton and Denton by-election as well.
25:57
Um
25:58
so
26:00
he's got a different kind of problem
26:01
with Muslims and he can attack the
26:03
Tories for it, but he's talking to his
26:06
own voters there. Yeah. Yeah, and and on
26:09
the right of UK politics right now,
26:12
especially in the commentator class,
26:14
you're starting to get quite a lot of
26:15
this analysis that says
26:18
Labour are doing this to appease the
26:20
Muslim block vote. Yeah. Um and that
26:23
goes on issues around the war in Gaza
26:27
for instance, but also things like this
26:29
sort of more softer cultural things that
26:32
as I said were previously acceptable,
26:33
but now are sort of being seen as
26:37
you know, the acceptance of how
26:39
prevalent those displays of religion are
26:43
are being seen as some sort of
26:45
like
26:46
complete acceptance and obeisance almost
26:48
by the Labour party because
26:52
it governs with such a slim majority in
26:54
certain key constituencies and that some
26:57
of those people sitting on the front
26:59
bench are so at risk. So, everything on
27:02
the right lots people see everything the
27:04
Labour Party does at the minute through
27:06
that lens.
27:07
>> Yeah. And I think so I was up in Gorton
27:09
and Denton, right? I think there were
27:11
lots of ways in which that shows where
27:15
the next general election is going to be
27:16
fought and definitely this issue is not
27:18
going away. I completely agree and I
27:20
think you're right. I think well we know
27:22
it's now a time of sort of five party
27:24
politics and I think it's going to be
27:28
a matter of of who can win over those
27:31
sort of factional voters and and Gorton
27:33
and Denton was a sort of weird coalition
27:35
of kind of rainbow, you know, green
27:38
voters and people who care very
27:40
passionately about Gaza kind of coming
27:41
together in a weird
27:44
coalition and and and I think you'll see
27:46
that in lots of seats like who can win
27:47
over Yeah. There is a few I think
27:50
there's a few seats where it make all
27:53
the difference.
27:54
And then in other seats, what I saw
27:57
there in Gorton and Denton was
27:59
tactical voting in real life. Like we
28:01
talk about it as a concept in politics a
28:04
lot.
28:05
But I met people at the doorstep who
28:07
were terrified of reform.
28:09
>> Yeah, so it's a stop voting
28:11
vote.
28:12
>> But they were paralyzed with indecision
28:14
about what to do about it and even on
28:17
the day I talked to some people who
28:19
said, you know, I'm going to make my
28:20
decision in the voting booth because I
28:23
simply don't know which way is right,
28:26
but I'm really scared of getting it
28:27
wrong. So, you think it was more a stop
28:29
reform vote than it was a hurray for
28:31
rainbows and Gaza? I think it's a mix of
28:35
both. Yeah. All right. Let's watch the
28:37
next one. This I think is the last
28:38
question. People say I am not
28:41
responsible for the answers. I've just
28:43
got to say that.
28:46
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It's a shame
28:48
he's not responsible for the answers,
28:50
either. The Prime Minister wants us to
28:52
believe that he is a serious leader, but
28:54
he doesn't do the work. He outsources
28:57
the decisions, and when things go wrong,
29:00
he blames the vetting, he blames the
29:02
chief of staff, he blames the cabinet
29:04
secretary, he blames anyone but himself.
29:07
This Prime Minister appointed Peter
29:09
Mandelson, but didn't bother to ask the
29:11
questions. If he cannot be straight with
29:13
the house on something as simple as
29:15
this, why should we believe a word he
29:17
SAYS ABOUT ANYTHING?
29:21
SHE TALKS about doesn't
29:22
3 weeks ago, she said we should rush
29:24
into war.
29:25
She didn't do the work. She didn't think
29:28
through the consequences.
29:30
Committing
29:32
our military to a war without thinking
29:33
through the consequences is the gravest
29:36
mistake a leader of the opposition could
29:38
ever make. And she comes back a week
29:39
later and says, "Oops, I got that one
29:42
wrong."
29:43
She's actually irrelevant.
29:45
And she's got no judgment. This is the
29:47
leader of the opposition who said I
29:49
should have empty chaired the most
29:50
important NATO summit in years. This is
29:53
the This is the opposition who said
29:56
Greenland is a second order issue.
29:59
And this is the leader of the opposition
30:01
who jumped into a war with Iran without
30:04
stopping to think.
30:06
On top of that this week, the failure to
30:09
condemn and sack
30:13
And I will repeat again, I'm not
30:15
responsible for the answers, but they're
30:17
certainly not opposition questions.
30:21
Mr. Speaker, add to that the failure to
30:24
condemn and sack the shadow justice
30:26
secretary for the poisoning and division
30:28
that he spreads. It's turning out to be
30:31
quite a month for the leader of the
30:32
opposition who claims she never makes
30:35
any mistakes.
30:40
Um Yeah. [laughter]
30:42
So, we had Lindsey Hall there kind of I
30:45
think implying that what Keir Starmer
30:48
had said
30:49
uh about the Tories having a Muslim
30:51
problem was slightly unparliamentary. Um
30:54
clearly a lot of barracking from the
30:55
Conservative benches that that was a
30:56
very offensive thing for him to have
30:58
said.
30:58
>> I didn't really get it, to be honest. I
31:00
think they were playing what I I think
31:02
we heard Priti Patel intervene there
31:03
saying, "That's offensive."
31:04
>> Oh. Um Brilliant. Brilliant. Just who we
31:07
want to hear from.
31:09
Well.
31:10
Um but again, I think that was just each
31:12
of them talking about completely
31:13
different issues, talking over each
31:14
other's heads. I think it was
31:16
interesting that Kemi said uh that he's
31:18
not a serious leader. Mhm.
31:21
Like a year ago, she would never have
31:24
put that out there because she was the
31:26
most unserious one. She was still having
31:29
all these teething problems. She wasn't
31:30
credible at Dispatch Box. Now, the fact
31:34
that she's able to say that and not be
31:35
laughed down at by the entire opposite
31:38
benches, I think that is quite
31:39
significant for her. They're both
31:41
getting into their into into their
31:43
respective furrows here. I mean, they're
31:45
punchy, but it's just a bit of an
31:47
unbecoming spectacle, frankly.
31:49
>> I think you're right, and I think
31:50
ultimately it speaks to what we were
31:51
saying about Gorton and Denton.
31:53
Everybody is talking to a faction.
31:55
They're not talking to the public at
31:56
large because I guess there is no public
31:58
at large anymore. There's no center
32:00
ground even if we maintain a sort of
32:02
mushy centrist position.
32:04
>> Mushy. Yeah, mushy indeed. Yeah, look, I
32:07
mean
32:08
I do wonder whether
32:11
people watching
32:13
do see the Tories as cos playing reform.
32:18
I do wonder whether those comments by
32:20
Nick Timothy are more similar to say
32:23
what Saira Khan had said about
32:25
about seeing black and brown faces on
32:27
television than anything that the old
32:29
Tory party would have said publicly.
32:31
Yeah, I think that's true. Though I
32:33
would question whether that's a question
32:35
whether that's cos playing reform or
32:36
whether that's where the voters are on
32:39
the right
32:39
>> and reflecting the nation you like.
32:42
Sounds very grand to say that.
32:44
Well, it's a good note to end on.
32:46
Well, what do we say overall scores on
32:47
the doors?
32:49
nil nil Yeah.
32:51
>> allowed to do that?
32:52
>> it's nil nil.
32:52
>> make the rules. It's our show.
32:55
Yeah. It was
32:57
it was quite boring.
33:00
Still notable like there's bits that
33:02
that I think
33:04
ones to watch out for. Tommy Robinson
33:05
being mentioned by Keir Starmer.
33:07
>> Starmer's a known man. That's a weird
33:09
one.
33:10
And then of course party politics came
33:12
into a little bit mentioning Angela
33:14
Rayner. Yeah. You know, that that would
33:16
usually be be where Kemi would go for
33:19
the attack. Yes, and where normally
33:20
she'd be you know, on stronger ground
33:22
there. But we feel like the war has
33:24
probably saved Keir Starmer at least in
33:26
the short term.
33:26
>> I think so. I think if Kemi was more
33:28
adaptable, she would have maybe gone for
33:32
Angela Rayner's speech last night which
33:35
has a lot in it to criticize Keir
33:37
Starmer for.
33:39
Plus some of the public reporting that
33:41
we've seen recently about his character,
33:43
his decision-making versus news from
33:46
last week. Yeah. As she said in the
33:48
written admission came out just just
33:50
after the last Prime Minister's
33:51
Questions. I agree.
33:53
Well, I think that is where we shall end
33:56
it.
33:56
>> Yeah. I wish I could say it's been fun.
33:59
>> [laughter]
34:00
>> It was very very fun anyway.
34:01
>> it was. Thanks so much for joining me.
34:04
This Kai who is a political commentator
34:07
and I am Alice Denby, opinion features
34:09
editor of City A.M.
34:10
And please this is a new show, so please
34:12
tell us what you think in the comments.
34:14
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