Up next in 10
Reality TV star Spencer Matthews has told City AM he doesn’t mind replacing alcohol with extreme fitness challenges, and that replacing alcohol with exercise can only be a good thing.
The entrepreneur who recently released a new range of zero-alcohol cocktails, said he’d swap his old unhealthy routine for the new one any day.
However, he stopped short of endorsing the ‘longevity’ movement, saying it’s a “waste of time”.
Watch the whole interview with Life & Style Deputy Editor, Adam Bloodworth.
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0:00
Do I think longevity's kind of nonsense?
0:01
>> I was going to say, it's a big word to
0:02
bring up at [laughter] this point.
0:05
>> But it's kind of I just think it's
0:07
I love lifting weights. I love the
0:08
feeling of lifting weights. I love I I
0:10
generally have fallen fallen in love
0:11
with being healthy.
0:13
I think which is, you know, something
0:14
that
0:15
I would urge anyone to you know, I've
0:17
been drastically unhealthy. You know,
0:19
where literally running 1 km would have
0:22
put me in really a really bad way. You
0:25
know,
0:27
walking up a flight of stairs would have
0:28
had me just absolutely sweating through
0:30
my shirt.
0:31
Um
0:32
and you know, just eating horrendous
0:34
food all of the time just to kind of try
0:36
and feel better from you know, the
0:38
amount of alcohol that you drank the day
0:40
before.
0:41
Um and so I've I've done all that, you
0:43
know, I hope I don't sound preachy. I I
0:45
I just I you know, I've I've I've been
0:47
really unhealthy and obviously I'm quite
0:49
healthy now.
0:50
Um
0:52
and you know, I just think there's
0:53
there's few things that are more
0:54
important than health. It's the kind of
0:55
top of the Sorry, it's like it's the
0:57
base of the pyramid surely.
0:59
You know, like it's very hard to be
1:01
you know, a vibrant entrepreneur, a
1:04
great dad, you know, a good a good
1:06
friend, you know, a nice husband if you
1:08
if if the base is not there.
1:11
>> So no So doesn't sound like there's any
1:12
longevity products in the in the works
1:14
from you then anytime soon.
1:16
>> I'm not I'm not
1:17
I don't
1:19
I don't want to live forever, I don't
1:22
think. I think when my time's done I'll
1:24
I'm very happy to clock out.
1:25
>> Uh strong.
1:26
>> Yeah, I just [laughter] I don't I don't
1:28
have any desire to to live till I'm 110
1:32
or whatever. Like I I appreciate the
1:34
work of you know, Brian Johnson and I
1:35
think it's really interesting.
1:37
But
1:38
I see him as someone who's kind of
1:41
almost wasting his life to live longer.
1:43
I don't I don't really understand it.
1:45
You know, I would love to live a really
1:46
full life full of experiences and
1:50
hopefully build some really interesting
1:51
stuff. Hopefully experience a lot of
1:52
success, you know, and hopefully be able
1:54
to spend loads of time with my kids.
1:56
>> All right, are we cracking these open or
1:57
>> Let's.
1:58
>> Yeah, what have we got here? Tell me
1:59
what we've got.
1:59
>> Uh so so these are CleanCo's new canned
2:02
cocktails. We've got we've got four
2:03
coming to market in the UK pretty soon.
2:05
We launched them in the States uh next
2:08
week. I'm flying over to New York on
2:09
Monday uh for the Brooklyn Bar Covenant.
2:12
Uh but you have a Clean Gin and Tonic, I
2:15
have a Clean Margarita. We've also got
2:17
Clean Mojitos uh and Clean Italian
2:19
Spritzers, which is kind of your
2:21
>> Aperol Spritz, but of course Aperol is a
2:23
brand, so we've called it the Italian
2:25
Spritz.
2:25
>> Cheers.
2:26
>> Cheers, mate.
2:27
>> Nice to spend time with you.
2:31
>> Delicious, if I don't say so myself.
2:33
>> The idea behind the company in the in
2:35
the first place was was to deliver kind
2:37
of sophisticated
2:38
ways of enjoying an alcohol-free uh
2:41
variant of a kind of famous cocktail
2:44
without any of the
2:46
uh alcohol, you know, or in this case
2:48
calories. You know, to to get to this
2:49
formulation's taken us nearly 2 years
2:51
for it to be, you know, virtually we we
2:53
can legally call it calorie-free. I
2:55
think, you know, if you have 100 mils of
2:56
it, there are a couple of calories in
2:57
there.
2:58
Um but, you know, sugar-free,
3:00
calorie-free is uh massive selling point
3:03
particularly for the US, you know, our
3:04
competitive market in the US is uh
3:06
is nowhere near that, you know, so so
3:09
we're kind of a stand-alone proposition
3:11
over there
3:12
uh in this space, which of course to us
3:14
is very exciting.
3:15
>> And what are the kind of biggest
3:16
challenges you face right now with
3:17
taking an alcohol-free ready-to-drink
3:19
tinny to market? I mean, I suppose
3:21
people still sort of throw around the
3:22
words, you know,
3:24
the bottle was I suppose both more in
3:26
the sort of
3:27
spirit world, sort of people saying £40
3:29
is a lot of money for a bottle. But in
3:31
this world, you've got kind of oh it
3:32
just doesn't taste quite like alcohol,
3:34
you know,
3:35
what are the biggest challenges you're
3:36
facing at the moment in sort of bringing
3:37
out there?
3:38
>> Yeah, just kind of, you know, we we've
3:39
we probably faced bigger challenges in
3:41
the past. Nowadays, I think it's it's
3:43
pretty acceptable, right, to to to drink
3:45
alcohol-free. I think um you know,
3:48
moderation is is incredibly normal
3:51
Um
3:51
uh and and what, you know, many people
3:53
strive for. I think that
3:56
um
3:57
it's it's it's a really interesting
3:59
time. It feels like more of a movement,
4:01
you know, the alcohol-free movement that
4:03
than a niche, you know, it certainly
4:04
used to be. When I first changed my
4:06
relationship with alcohol, there was a
4:07
lot of explaining that came with that.
4:09
I'm not drinking tonight. You had to
4:10
have all kind of reasons for for not
4:12
drinking. Um kind of came with with a
4:15
negative stigma, you know, one of the
4:17
few things actually where, you know, if
4:19
you if you if you choose to make a
4:20
positive change in your life, it's met
4:21
with negative uh stigma was is drinking,
4:25
particularly in this country. Um now I
4:28
think it's far more acceptable, you
4:29
know, you hear it from almost everyone,
4:31
you know, I'm not drinking today, I'm
4:32
not drinking this week, I'm just taking
4:33
a bit of time off it, you know, I think
4:34
it's become widely accepted. So, the the
4:38
the general kind of skepticism is is
4:40
less than it used to be. I think when we
4:41
launched in 2019, it there was there was
4:44
a lot of explaining that came with it,
4:45
you know, this sort of tastes like gin
4:48
if you mix it with tonic, you've got
4:49
yourself something that kind of will
4:50
remind you of a gin and tonic, but, you
4:52
know, it's far fewer calories than it
4:53
actually had some alcohol in it at that
4:55
stage. So, I think our first-ever ad was
4:58
like you'd need 36 of these to have one
5:00
gin and tonic, and, you know, it was all
5:01
kind of interesting, but it was uh
5:04
difficult to fully wrap your head
5:05
around. And, you know, the some of our
5:07
competitors and the fact that we have so
5:09
many competitors now is incredible,
5:11
right? Because it just shows that
5:12
there's real demand for this style of
5:14
product and that people are really
5:15
backing alcohol-free generally. Um
5:18
but, you know, the the the there's a
5:20
wide range of prices. Our spirits are
5:21
are 17 pounds uh unless they're
5:23
discounted here in this country. So, but
5:25
we do have some competitors up at kind
5:27
of 30, 40, and, you know, I think
5:30
it I I think it's great to have a wide
5:32
range of uh of of prices and variety in
5:35
any market. It gives people choice,
5:36
right? Like our our main point is that
5:39
we we want to deliver a crisp,
5:41
sophisticated cocktail without any
5:43
compromise on choice or or on choice or
5:45
social experience when it comes to
5:46
alcohol. And I think, you know, um
5:49
with access to podcasts and platforms
5:51
like this and, you know, things for for
5:53
free nowadays,
5:56
it's it people are far more conscious of
5:59
their health and ways that they can be
6:01
healthier. And I think a really obvious
6:03
one really and, you know, I'm not
6:04
bashing alcohol. I've got nothing
6:05
against alcohol. I enjoy a glass of, you
6:08
know, wine every so often or a beer with
6:09
my with my pals, but um you know, I have
6:12
to say if it's it's pretty rare. I think
6:14
that
6:15
it's uh
6:17
peo- people are generally more aware of
6:20
alcohol and and, you know, what it does
6:22
to the the body and mind.
6:24
>> And what's your hack if you're going out
6:25
cuz I think we've we've all been there.
6:26
You talk about moderation. We're all
6:27
sort of trying to get somewhere where we
6:29
drink a bit less and we live a healthier
6:31
lifestyle or we're all aware that seven
6:32
not six, five, four nights of drinking a
6:34
week is
6:35
bad, right? Um but
6:38
if you go to a pub, we've all been
6:39
there. You try to have that night off
6:41
and they're sort of saying, you know,
6:42
there's that sense of camaraderie, isn't
6:44
there? I'll Oh, you see their face drop.
6:46
Oh, you're not drinking. I for one I
6:48
really struggle with that on a night
6:49
where I'm not drinking. Um sometimes I
6:51
hold firm and I feel really proud of
6:52
myself, but I suppose I need a tip.
6:55
Everyone needs a tip. You drink probably
6:57
a lot less than I do. What's your tip?
6:59
What If I'm in the pub and I want to
7:00
swerve that alcoholic drink, how can I
7:02
get around it? What can I say? What's my
7:03
line?
7:04
>> Pooh, I
7:05
>> What's your line?
7:05
>> For me for me I need to make the
7:07
decision before I leave the house and I
7:09
need and I try and stick with it. You
7:11
know, I I think it's uh
7:13
I have a mechanism called a tipping
7:14
point, you know, where you know, not
7:17
singling people out. There's just
7:18
certain people that I won't drink with.
7:20
Not not to be rude to them, but I you
7:23
know, I have some great friends that
7:25
just love drinking, love love staying
7:28
out and you know, that's good for them.
7:29
It doesn't affect them in the way that
7:30
it used to affect me.
7:32
Um but I know, right, that if I go for a
7:34
pint with that particular person or that
7:37
particular group that I'll probably end
7:38
up drinking more than I want want and
7:40
I'll probably end up going home later
7:42
than I want to go home, and I'll
7:43
probably end up it'll have a knock-on
7:45
effect into my training and things that
7:48
I care about, right? So,
7:50
so for me, I try and make my mind up,
7:53
you know, before I go anywhere. And if
7:54
I'm going to a pub to see some people,
7:56
I'll I'll be quite I'll be quite clear
7:59
with with myself before I get there.
8:01
Also, I think, you know, I'm thankfully
8:02
I'm 37 years old. I'm not really at the
8:05
stage where I have friends who are, you
8:07
know, actively trying to twist my arm,
8:09
you know, ordinarily if I just say,
8:11
"Listen, I'm I'm I'll come, but, you
8:13
know, I'm not going to drink." Nobody
8:15
usually has a has an issue with that.
8:17
The other day I was with I was with a
8:19
friend I didn't intend to drink, and he
8:21
had a a pint, and kind of there was a
8:23
bit of a
8:24
"You know, you're going to make me drink
8:25
on my own" type of thing. And, you know,
8:27
I ended up having a a beer with him. And
8:29
I don't think I don't again, I don't
8:31
think there's anything moderate moderate
8:32
drinking is fine. I think when you take
8:34
somebody like me
8:36
who has an addictive nature and who's
8:39
quite competitive deep down even when it
8:41
comes to drinking.
8:43
Like, you know, I'm I'm competitive in
8:45
running, I'm competitive in business. I
8:46
used to be I used to be a competitive
8:48
drinker, right? So, it's kind of it's
8:50
uh I just need to be fully aware of, you
8:54
know, what I have coming the following
8:55
morning and, you know, what my
8:57
responsibilities are as a parent and
8:59
person. And, you know, I don't mean to
9:00
sound boring, but, you know, it is
9:03
easier, I think, when you have a full
9:04
plate, you know, when I've got three
9:06
kids, a fourth on the way, um a loving
9:09
relationship with with with, you know,
9:11
someone I like I think is my best
9:13
friends, you know, and
9:15
you know, for for me to go off and and
9:17
drink a lot would be um kind of selfish.
9:20
It would just get in the way of of
9:21
things. I wouldn't be able to pull my
9:22
weight in the way that I'm supposed to,
9:24
right? So, it's it's actually easier for
9:25
me nowadays to to not drink than it used
9:27
to be when I had, you know, no kids and
9:30
not much going, you know, I used to be a
9:33
used to be on television and and, you
9:35
know, more so than I am now, I suppose,
9:37
and
9:38
um you know, there would be quite long
9:41
breaks, I suppose, between shows, and in
9:44
those breaks, I would I would just have
9:46
time on my hands, and for somebody with
9:49
a mind like mine,
9:50
um
9:52
boredom
9:53
is is is a a trigger, if you will, you
9:56
know, I you know, when I have nothing to
9:57
do, which is pretty rare nowadays, I
9:59
think, well,
10:01
may as well have a drink, you know? So,
10:04
I find that having goals, in my case, or
10:07
you know, very like precise things that
10:09
I'm focusing on at work, uh
10:12
or you know, a a particular training
10:14
plan in place is very helpful for me.
10:17
>> Okay, so it's so maybe text the group
10:19
chat first, get ahead on the car on the
10:21
car on the way there, yeah, you know,
10:22
tonight I'm not drinking, cuz actually
10:24
it's weird, it sounds like a small
10:25
thing, but actually it's huge, isn't it?
10:27
Cuz there's that difference between
10:28
getting there and letting someone down
10:29
in person, and the feeling of having
10:30
someone there who's maybe
10:32
going to feel let down, versus getting
10:34
ahead and actually saying, just FYI, I'm
10:35
not drinking tonight.
10:36
>> Yeah. I think alcohol means different
10:38
things to different people, you know,
10:39
most people have
10:41
a probably a an okay relationship with
10:43
alcohol, you know, my people in my
10:45
family all drink alcohol, but not
10:48
they're not very regularly, they
10:49
certainly don't abuse alcohol, you know,
10:51
I'm the only person in my family that
10:53
abused alcohol, you know, so
10:57
um
10:58
there's there's literally I don't see
10:59
anything wrong at all with
11:01
going for a glass of wine, you know,
11:03
even
11:04
pretty regularly, just for me, that's a
11:06
slippery slope. So, I think my friends
11:09
and my surroundings understand that as
11:11
well, they know, right, that if I if I'm
11:13
at a football match, I went to Fulham on
11:15
for the first time. Has anyone been to
11:17
Fulham? The The Craven Cottage? It's
11:19
amazing. I'm not a football person, but
11:21
I think
11:22
I think I support Fulham, by the way.
11:24
It's like it's it's it's like
11:26
my friend messaged me, cuz he knew my
11:28
family were away,
11:29
and he messaged me, and he said, um "Do
11:31
you want to come to the Fulham game?"
11:33
And I was like, "Oh, no, I'm I'm not a
11:34
you know, I I don't I'm not a football
11:36
guy." And he was like, "Have you been to
11:38
Craven Cottage?" And I was like, "No,
11:39
I've not." And he was like, "Oh, you
11:40
you'll probably really like it." And we
11:42
did, it was fantastic. I don't know why
11:44
absolutely nothing to do with [laughter]
11:45
the question, but you know, if I was
11:47
filling my time with
11:49
you know, really fun things like that
11:51
all of the time, I think it yeah, as
11:52
mentioned, it would be a slippery slope.
11:53
It's part of the reason I created
11:54
CleanCo in the first place, and why it
11:56
was the
11:57
um you know, I I
11:59
I abused alcohol or drank heavily on on
12:02
a daily basis for many years. I used to
12:04
be a city trader.
12:05
I I then I ended up working at Icap as a
12:08
broker.
12:09
You know, not to go into specifics, and
12:10
again, I'm not trying to demonize the
12:12
culture, but I mean, it was
12:14
heavy drinking culture, just normal. And
12:16
that was fine, it was great fun. I
12:18
didn't even realize it was problematic.
12:20
Um
12:20
but you know, my sleep would have been
12:22
just non-existent, so badly affected. My
12:25
work would have really suffered. You
12:26
know, I would have probably been
12:27
operating at 15% capacity. You know, and
12:31
like, you kind of feel like now looking
12:33
back at it that that was
12:35
fun, but you know, in my opinion, I
12:37
probably wasted a bit of time there, you
12:40
know, drinking every day. And so, you
12:42
know, when I met Vogue, who who's just
12:44
um an amazing woman who's you know, very
12:47
driven, works incredibly hard, um there
12:50
was a there was a there was a disconnect
12:53
between the two of us. You know, we were
12:54
dating early days, but she was just
12:56
super busy, plate completely full,
12:58
shooting documentaries on you know,
13:00
prisons in America, and I was just kind
13:02
of like not really doing much. And it
13:04
shone a bit of a light on my behavior.
13:06
And I just thought, you know, if if I
13:08
don't want to lose this person, I should
13:09
I should really make an effort to just
13:11
be better, do more. So, I stopped
13:14
drinking, didn't drink for
13:16
I think it was like 2 and 1/2, 3 years.
13:18
Wasn't really like counting the days or
13:19
anything, and created CleanCo quite
13:21
early on in that process, cuz I realized
13:22
there wasn't too much
13:24
um in the way of like a good cocktail if
13:27
you weren't drinking. It was kind of
13:29
like diet coke or alcohol-free beer and
13:32
you know I can I can only have
13:34
a couple of those before I feel a bit
13:35
bloated or whatever. Again, I think
13:37
alcohol-free beer is fantastic, but I
13:39
was always more of a cocktail person. So
13:40
that was kind of the beginning of the
13:41
brand.
13:43
Sorry, I can I'm a podcaster so I can
13:44
just talk.
13:45
>> No, no, no, please.
13:46
>> [laughter]
13:47
>> I'll let you ask me some questions.
13:48
>> No, no, no, it's good. It's we're
13:49
talking it's interesting you talk about
13:50
boozy lunches and and kind of you know
13:52
your past about or kind of the idea of
13:54
the fact they're still I think you
13:55
mentioned this are very entrenched,
13:56
aren't they? And I think there's this
13:58
idea that as you say lots of people are
14:00
drinking less, but it's still present
14:02
and correct. I mean you go out in the
14:03
city the the reality today is that deals
14:05
are done on the I mean still done over
14:08
boozy lunches and and it's still so
14:10
essential to relationship building.
14:12
>> Yeah.
14:12
>> How do you as a founder, how do you
14:14
negotiate that and and what's your
14:15
advice to your your staff and and the
14:18
people that you work with about you know
14:20
how how how do you work around in in in
14:22
those parameters?
14:23
>> Well, I mean we all drink.
14:25
You know, we're not we're not we're not
14:26
we're not as we're not a sobriety
14:28
company. I Having said that, we don't
14:30
all drink. You know, just sorry James
14:31
Shilcock who's our
14:33
incredible
14:34
kind of GM of the entire brand is is a
14:36
sober person. I was sober for a period.
14:38
I'm I'm also sober most of the time.
14:41
But you know, we're not we're not really
14:43
trying to attack drinking culture.
14:46
Drinking culture is a huge part of who
14:47
we are. You know, every most people I
14:50
think the latest stat shows something
14:52
like 92% of people that buy CleanCo also
14:56
drink alcohol. Uh you know, Gen Z is
14:58
zebra striping, you know, which which
15:00
means if you if you're unfamiliar with
15:02
the term, it means you know, you're
15:02
having one alcoholic drink, one soft
15:04
drink, one alcoholic drink, one soft
15:06
drink. So you know, in theory you're
15:07
there for the same amount of time you're
15:08
getting half as
15:10
um inebriated. Uh drunk or or whatever.
15:14
I don't know why I tried to come up with
15:15
a fancy word.
15:16
>> [laughter]
15:16
>> Uh but it's come up with fancy words.
15:18
>> Yeah, yeah, but it but it's kind of you
15:19
know, I I don't think we're we're not
15:21
trying to change drinking culture. We're
15:23
we're trying to exist alongside it and
15:26
give people choice without without
15:29
uh negatively standing out for the wrong
15:31
reasons. You know, it used to be
15:33
you know, if you if you were the kind of
15:34
person that would go out for for drinks
15:37
with your friends and and you didn't
15:39
fancy a drink, you couldn't really fit
15:41
in. When I first went sober,
15:44
you know, say everyone was on
15:45
margaritas,
15:46
I'd have like an orange juice
15:49
or something. So, all of a sudden you
15:50
just look like a kid, you know? Or like,
15:52
you know, this this positive choice is
15:54
making you stand out negatively in a
15:57
group. You'd almost be better off having
15:59
lime juice with some fizzy water or
16:01
something that looks like a margarita.
16:02
So, part of the original idea was kind
16:04
of how can we create
16:06
like a margarita that is really good,
16:08
you know, that doesn't have any alcohol
16:10
in it because most mocktails and I I I
16:12
personally
16:14
have a vendetta against the word
16:16
mocktail cuz it's, you know, sounds like
16:18
a joke. Doesn't it? You know, mocktail.
16:20
>> else. Oh, you can't call it
16:21
>> Yeah, I I and it's and it's like full of
16:23
sugar usually and and the way in which
16:25
mocktails, you know, gain their flavor
16:27
because obviously alcohol
16:28
uh being a base of ethanol, you know,
16:30
adds quite a strong kick of flavor to to
16:32
to a drink, you know? People obviously
16:34
familiar with with what an alcoholic
16:35
drink tastes like. So, when you remove
16:37
that, uh the flavor profile of a juice,
16:40
you know, is is very different to to a
16:42
to a to a cocktail. So, you're
16:44
ordinarily left with something that
16:46
feels like a big compromise. Like, in
16:48
the early days of veganism, for example,
16:52
um
16:53
it was quite difficult to to to to make
16:56
healthy decisions around food uh
16:59
without, you know, having a huge
17:01
compromise. So, say you fancied a
17:03
cheeseburger, but you didn't want to eat
17:04
red meat. Uh you know, there's there was
17:07
nothing for a long time. And there was a
17:08
nut roast, which is obviously just, you
17:11
know, completely not the cheeseburger
17:12
that you're looking for. Uh then there
17:14
was, you know, veggie burgers.
17:16
Um then, you know, all of a sudden there
17:18
was Impossible Meat Burgers and bits and
17:20
bob Beyond Burgers and, you know, I even
17:23
like I've I've never tried to be a
17:24
vegetarian, but I had a Beyond Meat
17:25
Burger once and I was kind of quite
17:27
blown away by it. I thought, oh, this is
17:29
kind of like a cheeseburger. So, if I
17:31
was
17:32
uh, looking to be healthy and not have
17:33
red meat, uh, back when that was thought
17:36
to be healthy,
17:37
um, you know, you you you you could have
17:39
an option of something that sort of made
17:41
sense, right? And that was again in the
17:43
early days of CleanCo what we were
17:44
looking to do for the for the for the
17:46
mocktail.
17:46
>> Mhm.
17:47
>> Yeah, yep, yep. And it's interesting
17:49
obviously there are two sides of this,
17:50
you know, coin. You know, there's you
17:52
you are
17:54
think you're pro drinking, you think
17:55
drinking's great. And yet it feels to me
17:57
and anecdotally conversations I have
17:58
with other journalists that there is a
17:59
big kind of
18:00
silent, uh, sort of
18:03
taboo topic in England which is that I
18:05
think actually alcoholism is way more
18:07
widespread amongst, you know, everyday
18:10
life than actually anyone's really
18:11
willing to acknowledge. You know, I've
18:13
certainly got friends including myself
18:15
included so you get to the Thursday, oh,
18:16
got to spring for a pint. And let's
18:18
maybe dive into that a little bit more
18:20
and do you think there is, you know, an
18:22
undiagnosed sort of addiction issue sort
18:25
of way more widespread in in the UK that
18:27
needs to be spoken about in a more
18:29
broadly and in in more of a punchy way?
18:31
>> I certainly don't want to be the person
18:33
to do that. And and I I don't I don't
18:35
feel that I'm,
18:36
uh, you know, a credible professional
18:38
who who can who can talk to that really.
18:41
Um,
18:42
I I I agree with you, you know, I I
18:45
think it doesn't take it doesn't take
18:46
much right to lift the hood on alcohol
18:47
and realize that alcohol is is bad for
18:49
you. You know, alcohol
18:51
um,
18:52
permeate it is is, you know, one of the
18:54
few toxins in the world that can
18:55
permeate through cells, right? So, that
18:56
means it's it's fat soluble, right? So,
19:00
without, you know, getting into too much
19:01
data, when you drink alcohol it travels
19:03
through your whole body, you know,
19:04
damages your cells, it damages your
19:06
skin, it damages your brain, it damages
19:08
your organs, you know, it it it it it it
19:11
head to toe, you know, it's it's uh
19:14
different to smoking in that sense even,
19:16
right? And you know, of course alcohol
19:17
causes millions of deaths a year. You
19:19
know, so you of course it is dangerous.
19:21
But I think it's it's so embedded in
19:24
um
19:25
culture, and not just British culture,
19:26
that you know, reversing
19:29
um that it is is certainly it's
19:31
certainly not our job. Uh but you know,
19:34
I feel that as a as a company we we
19:36
wouldn't want to take a stance against
19:39
the thing that we're we're looking to to
19:42
provide options against. You know, it's
19:44
I think it's quite an essential part of
19:46
of what we
19:47
do. I think
19:49
you know,
19:50
coming out with with almost obvious
19:52
statements that alcohol is dangerous is
19:54
is not
19:55
that beneficial to me as a person or
19:58
founder.
19:58
>> Mhm. Okay. It's interesting you say it
20:01
feels obvious cuz I sort of I feel like
20:02
there is still a huge taboo around
20:04
acknowledging acknowledging the
20:05
alcoholism that exists in the UK. But I
20:07
would sort of researching for this piece
20:09
is interesting you're doing this
20:10
fascinating Channel 4 documentary on,
20:12
you know, am I a psychopath, which is so
20:14
taboo breaking and so and that's and
20:16
that's so fascinating. And you know, I
20:17
wonder alcoholism's this incredibly
20:20
interesting topic about whether you're a
20:22
psychopath. I mean, those are words that
20:24
are hard to even say out loud because
20:26
it's there's so much taboo around them
20:27
and there's so many topics that are
20:28
still so I think I think I wonder does a
20:31
you know, as a founder how much you feel
20:33
your role is in shaping and changing
20:35
people's mindsets around these
20:37
absolutely these topics that are
20:38
shrouded in in secrecy.
20:40
>> So on like on psychopathy?
20:42
>> Yeah. Or or alcoholism?
20:43
>> Well, psychopathy but then also just
20:44
this idea of being a taboo breaker. It
20:46
>> I think the word I think the word
20:47
alcoholic is quite dangerous in itself.
20:49
I think I think many people are able to
20:51
to go for that pint that you said that
20:54
you might crave on a Thursday, have
20:56
three, four pints, and not you know,
20:59
have their wheels fall off in a way
21:01
that's going to damage their their life,
21:02
you know. I'm sure my my brother
21:04
wouldn't even mind me saying, you know,
21:05
my my brother weekends will drink red
21:08
wine, you know, several glasses of red
21:11
wine, watch a film, go to bed. He's
21:12
still up in the morning with his kids.
21:14
He operates really well. You know, I
21:16
think
21:17
alcohol had a a really adverse effect on
21:20
me.
21:21
You know, so
21:22
it was quite easy for me to to look at
21:25
that as a leading problem of why my life
21:30
wasn't turning out the way I wanted it
21:32
to. Um for some people it's it's a
21:34
little bit more blurred than that. And
21:37
you know, to some people alcohol is
21:38
probably less dangerous than it is to
21:40
others. I think of the word alcoholic
21:42
and I imagine somebody, you know, face
21:45
down in a pool of vomit or you know,
21:47
somebody sleeping on a park bench. And
21:49
of course,
21:50
how is how is one defined as an
21:53
alcoholic? Like my opinion on alcoholism
21:55
is if alcohol is affecting you in a way
21:58
where it is getting in the way of your
22:00
life and affecting those around you who
22:02
love you,
22:03
then you know, perhaps you should be
22:05
drinking less.
22:06
It also, you know, if you're the kind of
22:08
person that is thinking, I think I'm
22:10
drinking too much,
22:12
then you probably are. You know, people
22:14
who
22:15
people who don't drink too much don't
22:18
think they drink too much, you know,
22:19
ordinarily. And some people I'm sure
22:21
drink too much and don't think they
22:22
drink too much. But But you know, if
22:24
you're if you're if you're waking up
22:26
with a bit of a sore head and you know,
22:29
you've missed a bit of a part a big part
22:30
of your morning
22:32
and you're thinking, God, you know, I'm
22:33
finding myself in this position
22:35
a few times and I kind of wish I wasn't,
22:38
then you know, my advice to to you would
22:40
would be, you know, perhaps take some
22:42
some advice that I that I took once,
22:44
which was, you know, I went and saw I
22:45
went and saw someone. Not everyone needs
22:46
to go and see someone and they told me,
22:48
you know,
22:49
um I think alcohol's definitely getting
22:51
in the way in the way of your life. Um
22:54
you know, try try not drinking for 7
22:56
days. Doesn't sound like much.
22:58
And I think most people listening to
23:00
this would probably go, yeah, I could go
23:02
7 days without a drink." But actually,
23:04
it's quite, you know, it's it's it it is
23:06
quite a it's a it's a step, you know,
23:08
most people will probably have drink or
23:09
two at least in a week.
23:11
>> [gasps]
23:12
>> Um
23:13
so that for me was quite a nice
23:14
milestone. I tried that and then of
23:16
course came back to the guy and he said,
23:17
you know, try another week and and then
23:19
try another week and you know, that
23:21
wasn't the beginning of the the kind of
23:22
full sobriety, but just just having a
23:24
few days off is really helpful. And I
23:27
think, you know, it's it's really
23:28
difficult in the British summer
23:30
particularly, you know, people getting
23:31
married all the time and it's sort of
23:32
sort of like, you know, you walk past
23:34
the pub corner and everyone's sat in the
23:35
sun and it looks fantastic. Beer gardens
23:37
have never looked more beautiful and you
23:38
know, all of a sudden you're you're
23:39
telling yourself, "Well, why not?" You
23:41
know, and again, it's
23:43
it's a it's a reason, you know, for for
23:46
these for these canned cocktails, you
23:47
know, I I personally as somebody that
23:49
loves a cocktail, if I have one of these
23:51
Clean Gins and Teas or if I have a Clean
23:52
Margarita or a Clean uh Italian Spritz,
23:55
I kind of get that slight feeling of
23:58
uh you know, I can I'm I'm having a I'm
24:01
having a nice drink, you know, which I
24:02
wouldn't get from a diet Coke. So, you
24:05
know, it's it's part of just existing
24:06
with it, I think.
24:08
You know, trying to tackle the the the
24:10
the culture head-on is uh
24:12
yeah, again, it's, you know, there are
24:14
people who who who um
24:17
whose mission is is to do that and I I
24:19
think it I think it's I think it's a
24:20
super valid thing to do, you know, and
24:23
and by just I don't think it's my place.
24:25
>> On those busy summer days, have you ever
24:26
done that thing where you get two Beck's
24:28
Blues and pour them into a pint and so
24:30
it looks like a pint sort of thing?
24:31
>> Yeah, yeah.
24:31
>> Have you ever done that?
24:33
So it's sort of a Yeah, you have?
24:34
>> Yeah, yeah, or two two bottles of
24:35
alcohol-free beer in a pint.
24:37
>> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so you've
24:38
done that. So you've done that.
24:38
>> Yeah, no, I have. I have. Yeah,
24:40
>> Yeah, and is that kind of cuz there's a
24:41
whole thing about that kind of making
24:42
people feel part of something, right? I
24:43
mean, can you talk a bit about that that
24:46
idea and how how holding a pint is sort
24:48
of this
24:49
is you know,
24:50
part of British culture that just
24:53
yeah, I mean, talk a bit about your
24:54
experience of that moment. When did you
24:55
do that?
24:56
>> No, I did that just because I I wanted
24:58
to I like holding a pint as opposed to a
25:01
bottle, I suppose. But, I think, you
25:03
know, we just to go back to what we were
25:05
talking about before with with regard to
25:07
what do you say to groups of people, you
25:10
know, who expect you to drink.
25:13
Um I think if you're holding a drink,
25:16
people usually leave you alone, right?
25:17
So, if you if you if you if you got a if
25:18
you got a pint of Lucky Saint, you know,
25:21
and it perhaps didn't say Lucky Saint on
25:23
it. Luke Bose's brand, you know, Lucky
25:25
Saint, the the zero alcohol, fantastic.
25:27
Uh the the beer. Um you know, but like
25:30
even a Heineken zero, a Guinness zero,
25:32
um
25:33
I was recently in in Ireland, had a had
25:35
a couple of Guinness zeros at a bar
25:37
where at a pub where everyone was
25:39
drinking Guinness.
25:41
And I knew that people
25:43
I knew that I would be expected to to
25:46
drink Guinness cuz I was it with with an
25:48
Irish crew and we were and I would just
25:49
quietly have my
25:51
Guinness zeros. And I actually said to
25:53
the barman in this particular instance,
25:54
I was like, "Can I just have it in a
25:55
normal pint glass, you know?" Cuz cuz it
25:57
just it may it makes it just easier then
25:59
you hold it and you have half of it and
26:00
you you're like all of a sudden you're
26:01
just drinking with everyone. And so so
26:03
it is it is like there are times when I
26:05
think it makes sense and I had a
26:08
>> It's good for them, right? Cuz
26:09
>> Yeah, I
26:10
>> you pass and also, you know, you get
26:11
away with it.
26:12
>> Yeah, I mean, of course you could also
26:13
spin it out to people and go, "I'm not
26:14
drinking." But, you know, it's almost
26:15
easier to just fly under the radar
26:17
sometimes.
26:18
>> Yeah, life's hard where you don't every
26:20
you know, as an alcohol-free person,
26:21
you're fighting that battle every single
26:22
time you go to the pub. And actually, if
26:24
you can get away with it, then why
26:26
[laughter] not just why not get away
26:27
with it?
26:27
>> Yeah, it is funny though, isn't it? That
26:29
it's uh that it is still considered
26:31
taboo. You know, I did a post about that
26:33
on LinkedIn the other day just saying,
26:35
you know, announce that you're not
26:36
drinking in a in a pub and see how
26:38
uncomfortable it makes people. It's um
26:41
you know, you would you don't get that
26:43
with other
26:44
um
26:46
toxins or substances, right? Like if
26:48
somebody, you know, was a was for
26:50
argument's sake a drug addict and they
26:52
were going to say, "Hey, look, I'm going
26:53
to give up drugs." Everyone would go,
26:56
"Thank god. That's great." You know, but
26:58
like
26:58
anyone going like, "Hey, listen, I'm
27:00
going to run a marathon, and you know,
27:01
for the next 6 months, I'm not going to
27:03
drink." Everyone goes, "What?"
27:05
You know, it's it's kind of it's it's
27:06
strange.
27:06
>> I think we've established why though,
27:07
right? I mean, there's a Yeah, but we we
27:09
won't we won't backtrack, but there's a
27:11
there's a Yeah, there's a lot of people
27:12
out there that that that have have
27:14
personal challenges around that.
27:16
>> Of course.
27:16
>> Um And then, I mean, it's interesting
27:18
that you obviously you've just done your
27:19
big Snowden challenge, haven't you? And
27:21
I mean, I I wondered to what extent, you
27:23
know, and this is purely me speculating,
27:24
but I'd love to hear more about this
27:26
from your your perspective, you know,
27:28
how do you get high these days if you if
27:30
it isn't if it isn't on booze? And to
27:32
what extent has has have these, you
27:34
know, high octane challenges sort of of
27:36
replaced that?
27:38
>> Yeah, I mean, when I first started
27:39
taking on big challenges, uh people
27:42
would just say, "Well, you know, you're
27:43
now addicted to to this, you know,
27:45
you've just you've swapped booze for
27:48
for running." You know, and I I mean, I
27:50
would say, "Thanks." You know, I think I
27:53
I personally think that that's a that's
27:55
a trade I'd make every day. You know, if
27:57
if I had if I had perfect willpower,
28:00
which of course I don't, I would make
28:01
that trade every day.
28:03
Um
28:04
and, you know, just moving away from
28:07
I'll come back to to Snowden and Project
28:09
Seven and the 30 marathons or what what
28:10
whatever, you know, that you'd like to
28:12
speak about in terms of challenges, but
28:14
there's something really beautiful and
28:17
deeply satisfying about kind of chipping
28:19
away at a goal, and in particular, a
28:21
running goal. Um
28:24
you know, I interview people as well. Um
28:26
and I I interview athletes mostly,
28:28
runners in fact, usually. Um and they
28:32
all have such an interesting take on why
28:36
running is special to them. You know,
28:38
Hugo Fry was talking about It's actually
28:39
really difficult, you know, nowadays to
28:42
feel like your career is progressing in
28:45
a meaningful way. Like if you just have
28:47
a he I think he worked in marketing. He
28:49
he he just said, you know, you can go
28:51
years before you get a promotion or
28:53
anything and it's kind of like you sort
28:55
of feel like you're just plateauing all
28:57
the time. In his case, he said,
28:59
"When you give yourself to running
29:01
and you you you train in a specific way,
29:03
you know, you've got all these lovely
29:05
ledges that you can climb and it's quite
29:06
a personal thing." Steven Scullion said,
29:08
you know, the quiet satisfaction of
29:10
chipping away at running goals is
29:12
is um
29:13
something that stays with you forever.
29:15
You know, he said you can you can build
29:16
a business and you can sell a business
29:18
and you can be rich and then you have
29:19
the money and then you spend the money
29:23
and then, you know, what do you have?
29:24
Things, you know? And that's great.
29:26
Listen, I'm
29:27
I'm as materialistic as the as the next
29:29
bloke, right? So, things are, you know,
29:31
whatever. But but it but there is
29:34
something incredible about working
29:36
really hard towards achieving a goal in
29:38
running and noticing your health and
29:42
your fitness
29:43
getting better and better and faster and
29:46
stronger. Like it it's really it's
29:48
really addictive. Like and I I love it.
29:51
Like and I would
29:52
that feeling. I was high this morning,
29:54
right? That feeling. Don't use that as a
29:56
headline, right? But I I I was
29:58
I I had a session this morning
30:00
that saw me do like a 3K warm-up and
30:02
then three sets of 3K, all progressive
30:05
whilst like paying attention to heart
30:07
rate. All quite like nerd stuff that I
30:08
would have considered really nerdy,
30:10
right? Like a year ago even. But
30:12
Steven's very kindly helping me, you
30:15
know, get faster at the moment. We're
30:16
working together.
30:17
And um
30:19
and just the satisfaction of kind of
30:20
pulling off that session, which is very
30:22
similar to a session that I did three
30:24
weeks ago, but my heart rate was about
30:26
10 beats per minute lower, you know, for
30:28
this for the same session. So, I I can
30:30
physically see like, "Wow, that was
30:31
easier and I was faster and my heart
30:33
rate is the heart rate is lower." And
30:35
like little things like that, just
30:37
chipping away at that is is is giving me
30:40
so much joy. And I'm not training more
30:43
than I would ordinarily train. I'm just
30:44
training smarter, training better. And
30:46
and and I'm I'm kind of really falling
30:49
in love with the science of of running
30:51
and understanding like what Steven talks
30:53
about. When Steven was talking to me
30:55
when I interviewed him about running, it
30:57
was like so inspiring. Everything he
31:00
said, he was like a wise old owl. You
31:03
know, everything he said I was like, "I
31:05
would love to feel that way about
31:07
running." Like cuz running to me is
31:09
something that I do. It's not something
31:11
that I feel, you know, it's not
31:13
something that is a part of me. And you
31:15
might think it is, but it's kind of not.
31:16
It hasn't been until recently.
31:18
Um but I kind of get it now.
31:21
And it's it's it's really changing
31:22
stuff. I think it making me a better
31:25
better father, better person. Like like
31:27
I'm I'm wanting to go to bed earlier.
31:29
I'm wanting to get up earlier. I'm
31:30
wanting to get my day organized better
31:32
so that I can squeeze in this run that I
31:33
want to do. Everything about it is
31:35
having this positive knock-on effect
31:37
into my life. So, to answer your
31:38
question of how I get high, like I I'm
31:40
kind of
31:41
enjoying that process more than possibly
31:44
any challenge I've ever done cuz
31:46
I've always looked at challenges before
31:48
that as a right, we're going to do this
31:50
big banging thing. And, you know, we're
31:52
going to try and raise as much awareness
31:53
and as much money for this cause as
31:55
possible.
31:56
Um and that's fantastic and I look back
31:58
at the they'll probably be the best
32:00
times, you know, outside of my family
32:03
life um
32:04
that that that I will ever experience,
32:06
you know, these incredible challenges.
32:08
But they have a they have a goal and the
32:10
goal needs to be met. Whereas, you know,
32:12
what I'm doing with Steven is kind of
32:14
it's just life. Like it's just uh you
32:17
know, how do you become better at
32:18
something? Well, you follow these
32:20
parameters and you
32:22
you approach it with discipline. And,
32:24
you know, when I meet someone who's an
32:25
amazing runner, tells me a load about
32:27
that person, you know, you're probably
32:30
goal-driven, you know, really into your
32:32
detail, you work really hard, you give
32:35
yourself to things, you care about
32:37
stuff, You know, it it's tells me a lot
32:39
about a person. Even like something like
32:41
a marathon time to me like, "Oh, you run
32:43
a marathon in 3 hours 40." Like, I know
32:46
quite a lot about you straight away.
32:49
>> So, there's been a lot of that you've
32:50
transferred into sort of your founder
32:51
space and your and your work space. I
32:53
mean, what Is there anything else
32:54
specifically that I mean, you're talking
32:55
a lot about your personal life, but I
32:57
mean, you it's been helping you manage
32:58
your diary, helping you kind of like
32:59
keep keep on top of stuff at work as
33:02
well, right?
33:02
>> Yeah.
33:02
>> Yeah.
33:03
>> I just think it's non For me, it's
33:04
non-negotiable. You know, it's And it's
33:06
not a case of
33:07
you know, I think
33:09
you know, we
33:10
People that do marathons and challenges
33:13
sometimes come under a bit of fire for
33:15
like, "Well, you know,
33:16
how can you spend so much time on this
33:19
thing when you have a family?"
33:21
To me, it's as important as as business
33:24
and and anything else that I do, you
33:25
know? And if I felt that it was having a
33:26
negative effect on my family, I'd do my
33:28
absolute best to change it, you know? I
33:30
don't I'm not under that impression, you
33:32
know? Um
33:33
I think that um
33:36
doing difficult things is is is great.
33:38
It's really good practice. You know,
33:40
like people talk about ice bathing and
33:43
it managing your stress for the day
33:45
because you get in and your body is so
33:46
shocked from the freezing cold water
33:48
that, you know, all of these endorphins
33:49
are released and all this dopamine is
33:51
released and and all of a sudden, you
33:52
know, your stress levels are lower
33:53
throughout the day. I have no idea if
33:55
any of that is is true, but what I what
33:57
I do know is that you know, by doing the
33:59
difficult thing and ramming your day
34:01
full of stuff, but getting the the the
34:02
hard thing done early, you definitely
34:05
have a a real sense of achievement in
34:07
your day, you know? And I've had
34:09
all kinds of times in my career where
34:11
I've felt like I'm not good enough or
34:14
I'm not
34:15
>> What's the thing you hate the most about
34:16
your working day? What do you What's the
34:17
thing you do first to get it over and
34:18
done with?
34:19
>> Well, in the morning.
34:20
>> Yeah.
34:21
>> I I I I I do love uh
34:24
I love lifting weights. So, like I'll
34:26
lift weights three times a week. So,
34:27
Monday, Wednesday, Friday kind of are
34:29
the are the days that Vogue will take
34:31
the kids to school, I'll do the other
34:33
the other days and uh and in the morning
34:35
quite early I'll go to the gym and I'll
34:37
lift weights. I find that um I mean it's
34:40
now considered a a massive marker of
34:43
longevity, you know, um musc- muscle
34:45
mass and so there's nothing to do with
34:47
why I do it. Uh also I think longevity
34:50
is kind of nonsense to be honest.
34:51
>> going to say it's a big word to bring up
34:52
at this [laughter] point.
34:54
>> But it's kind of I just I just think
34:55
it's uh I love lifting weights. I love
34:57
the feeling of lifting weights. I love I
34:59
I generally have fall- fallen in love
35:01
with being healthy. I think which is,
35:03
you know, something that
35:05
I would urge anyone to do. You know,
35:06
I've been drastically unhealthy. You
35:09
know, where literally running 1 km would
35:11
have put me in really a really bad way.
35:15
You know,
35:16
s- walking up a flight of stairs would
35:18
have had me just absolutely sweating
35:19
through my shirt. Um
35:22
a- and I and you know, just eating
35:23
horrendous food all of the time just to
35:25
to kind of try and feel better from, you
35:27
know, the amount of alcohol that you've
35:29
drank the day before.
35:30
Um and so I've I've done all that. You
35:32
know, I hope I don't sound preachy. I I
35:34
I just I you know, I've I've been really
35:37
unhealthy and obviously I I'm quite
35:38
healthy now.
35:40
Um
35:41
and you know, I just think there's
35:42
there's few things that are more
35:43
important than health. It's the kind of
35:44
top of the uh sorry, it's like it's the
35:46
base of the pyramid surely.
35:48
You know, like it's very hard to be,
35:51
you know, a vibrant entrepreneur, a
35:53
great dad, you know, a good a good
35:55
friend, you know, a nice husband if you
35:57
if if the base is not there.
36:00
>> So no so doesn't sound like there's any
36:02
longevity products in the in the works
36:04
from you then anytime soon.
36:05
>> I'm not I'm not like
36:07
I don't
36:09
I don't want to live forever, I don't
36:11
think. I think when my time's done I'll
36:13
I'm very happy to clock out.
36:15
>> Uh strong.
36:15
>> Yeah, I just [laughter] I don't I don't
36:17
have any desire to to live till I'm 110
36:21
or whatever. Like I I appreciate the
36:23
work of, you know, Bryan Johnson and I
36:25
think it's really interesting.
36:27
But
36:28
I see him as someone who's kind of
36:30
almost wasting his life to live longer.
36:33
I don't I don't really understand it.
36:34
You know, I would love to live a really
36:36
full life full of experiences and
36:39
hopefully build some really interesting
36:40
stuff. Hopefully experience a lot of
36:42
success, you know, and hopefully be able
36:43
to spend loads of time with my kids. And
36:45
you know, I I that's
36:47
what I would like to do.
36:48
>> And as a founder now, what does success
36:49
look like? I mean, you obviously had
36:51
lots so far in your career in many
36:52
different ways. But I mean,
36:54
that changes and evolves as you
36:56
you know, you go on. I mean, what what
36:57
does success look like right now?
36:59
>> We want to help as many people make
37:01
positive decisions around alcohol as as
37:02
we can through interesting, delicious
37:05
products that, you know, could make a
37:07
difference to to people. Uh we recently
37:10
um Southern Glazer's Wine Wines and
37:13
Spirits, the largest distribution
37:14
company in America, recently took a
37:16
pretty large stake in our business. Um
37:19
obviously our our new relationship with
37:21
them is going to open doors that we
37:24
can't open over in the States. Um
37:27
you know, really looking forward to
37:29
driving that volume through them.
37:32
Um
37:32
you know, it's going to make a
37:33
tremendous difference to to our to our
37:36
US business, um for sure.
37:39
>> [sighs]
37:39
>> Uh
37:40
you know, I'm not trying to sound like a
37:41
monk, but what do we mean by success?
37:43
You know, in terms of CleanCo, um you
37:45
know, I I would really love uh
37:48
for for us to to, you know, be present
37:50
on as many shelves as possible, drive as
37:52
much change and awareness as we possibly
37:53
can. Uh you know, be in the hands of
37:55
people who who can enjoy a clean
37:57
cocktail for the first time and many
37:59
more after that.
38:00
Um terms of personal success, you know,
38:02
I want to I want to
38:05
uh be happy and healthy, you know? I
38:08
think I think it you know, it's bit bit
38:09
of a boring answer, but I think when you
38:11
are happy and healthy, it's a nice
38:13
feeling, isn't it?
38:14
>> You were asked a boring answer because
38:15
it's a good
38:16
>> Well, you can be you can be, you know,
38:17
as rich as can be and you can build your
38:19
business and sell it for a billion
38:20
dollars. If your wife and kids have left
38:22
you by that point, then you know, you
38:24
I I'd I'd probably choose uh
38:26
to hold on to them.
38:27
>> Yeah, and it's certainly there's a lot
38:29
of it feels like there's a lot of sort
38:30
of exploitative tangents of the
38:31
longevity space in there, isn't it? But
38:33
we won't go any further into that. Just
38:34
just quickly
38:35
>> I find the longevity thing hilarious,
38:36
but anyway.
38:37
>> Yeah, yeah.
38:37
>> Just anyway.
38:38
>> Yeah, no.
38:39
Yeah, what of what about it?
38:41
>> No, just I I just you know, this desire
38:43
to kind of live forever is strange. I
38:45
just I you know.
38:46
>> Yeah.
38:46
>> Even my friend Bear Grylls I think
38:48
recently came out with I I want to live
38:49
till I'm
38:50
>> 200.
38:51
Like some old tortoise.
38:52
>> What are you going to be doing when
38:53
you're 200? Honestly.
38:55
>> Maybe having a great time. Those
38:56
tortoises look like they're pretty
38:57
happy.
38:57
>> They they look they look you know, they
39:00
look wise old things as well.
39:01
>> Did you see that recent misinformation
39:02
that fake news around that one that had
39:04
died, the world's oldest tortoise? And
39:06
it actually it's still here.
39:07
>> No, it's around. Yeah, no, it was just
39:08
joking.
39:09
>> So, it was just joking. Longevity works.
39:11
Um just two final things. Um let's talk
39:14
a bit about I mean, you've obviously
39:15
this company was 7 years old now, right?
39:17
7 years old.
39:18
>> Yes.
39:19
>> What would you say I mean, obviously
39:20
you've worked in other
39:21
fields of uh
39:23
entrepreneurship, but is there what's
39:25
the biggest lesson you've learned so far
39:26
as a as a founder?
39:29
>> Oh, wow. The the the you know, growth is
39:31
certainly not linear. You know, we've
39:33
had our
39:34
problems like like any startup. I think
39:38
yeah, again not to sound like our friend
39:39
Bear Grylls, as long as you don't give
39:41
up, you know, and you try and find
39:43
a route forward,
39:45
then you know, there usually is
39:48
there usually is another door. You know,
39:50
I think I think entrepreneurs need to be
39:53
tactile for sure. You know, like like
39:55
you know, the the plan that you set out
39:57
is very rarely what happens is in my
39:59
experience. I'm sure there are far more
40:01
successful
40:03
founders than me that have just you
40:04
know, gone straight from A to B, but
40:06
certainly for us it's been
40:08
it's been
40:09
a kind of beautiful journey. Um
40:14
biggest lessons
40:16
I don't not sure really, Just, you know,
40:18
I guess authenticity in in what and what
40:20
you're trying to build remains kind of
40:22
paramount at its core. I find that when
40:24
we're raising money in particular,
40:27
um you know, an authentic reason and
40:30
story for doing something beats data,
40:33
you know, usually. I think people invest
40:36
in people really. I know I do.
40:38
Um
40:39
you know, if if I if I'm looking to
40:40
invest in someone,
40:42
uh looking them in the eyes and trying
40:44
to understand whether or not they can
40:45
actually pull off the thing that they
40:46
think they're going to do is pretty
40:48
important. You know, like
40:50
we'll see decks sometimes and it's just
40:53
you know, we've done 500k this year and
40:55
you know, in 3 years time we're going to
40:56
be doing 100 million and it's like
40:58
okay, uh you know, how are you going to
41:00
do that? Uh it's it's a it's a difficult
41:02
thing to to to fathom, but I think, you
41:04
know, the founder for me is um
41:08
ordinarily where I put my money.
41:10
>> Cool. Thank you so much. And I know it's
41:12
obviously you know, you've sort of
41:13
distanced yourself from reality TV past
41:15
and it's something that you know, feels
41:16
very much in the past now, a decade ago.
41:19
But I mean it's interesting with the
41:20
alcohol connection. I mean well, it's
41:21
tangential completely, but I mean I just
41:23
wondered, you know, just a final thought
41:25
on you know, as you know, as someone
41:27
who's now in charge of managing
41:28
businesses and managing people, what you
41:30
think the route forward is for it? I
41:32
mean recently
41:34
thematically there's been issues with
41:35
contestants being plied with alcohol so
41:37
that they can be, you know, looser and
41:39
more kind of TV ready and obviously the
41:41
the horrible stuff the allegations
41:42
around Married at First Sight in the UK.
41:44
Um yeah, I just wondered, you know, if
41:46
you were taking the reins of these
41:47
shows, what would you do as a founder to
41:49
to make them better and more ethical?
41:52
>> The obvious answer is, you know,
41:53
contestants on shows shouldn't be
41:55
drinking alcohol. I think it I think it
41:56
I think it warps the way you you think
41:59
and engage and interact with people. I
42:01
certainly look back at some of my scenes
42:02
on Made in Chelsea and wish that I
42:04
wasn't drunk.
42:05
Uh but you know, I'm not
42:07
again, not placing blame on on on
42:09
anyone.
42:10
Um
42:11
but you know, when when you're filming
42:13
something that is going to be viewed by
42:14
potentially millions of people,
42:17
um I think if you look back at it,
42:19
you know, once it once it's come out,
42:20
you'd probably you'd probably hope that
42:22
you were of sound mind when you were
42:24
recording that scene.
42:26
Um
42:28
so, you know, it's not as
42:29
straightforward as that again, and I'm
42:30
not in that the position to be able to
42:32
to to help really, but yeah, I I think
42:34
that, you know, as mentioned, I
42:36
certainly I was never plied full of
42:40
booze against my just to be clear.
42:42
Uh I was a very willing participant, uh
42:45
but I kind of I I do look back at, you
42:47
know, some scenes that I see of myself
42:49
sometimes and go, "Wow, you know, I
42:52
really wish I was sober then."
42:53
>> And obviously the booze was fairly
42:55
free-flowing in terms of if you wanted
42:56
it, you know, it was there. Producers
42:58
would have it ready.
42:59
>> I think we would pay for our own drinks
43:00
a lot of the time as well, you know. I
43:02
don't think, you know, I I I understand
43:04
the angle, not that you're is coming
43:05
from you, um but, you know, we were
43:07
never
43:09
put in positions that we didn't want to
43:10
be in necessarily with alcohol. Uh of
43:13
course there were there was the odd
43:14
scene that you'd rather not be a part of
43:16
at all,
43:17
>> [laughter]
43:17
>> but
43:18
but that's just the nature of the show.
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