Up next in 10
Interest rates look set to stay higher for longer, putting more pressure on borrowers – including the country’s biggest borrower, the government. The Bank of England’s MPC's decision to hold interest rates also hampers Andy Burnham's drive to solve the youth unemployment crisis. Chief Reporter, Ali Lyon joins to explain.
Meanwhile, Andy Burnham has given his second sit down interview since becoming Prime Minister and said business needs to lean in more to solve the jobs crisis - we're joined by Jimmy McLoughlin who interviewed him.
Plus: the electric Ferrari Luce proves its doubters wrong as it smashes its sales target.
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0:00
Hello and welcome back to Business as
0:02
usual with me, Martin Kimber,
0:03
>> and me, Simon Hunt. Coming up on the
0:05
podcast, the Bank of England hampers
0:07
burners job drive as the MPC votes to
0:10
hold interest rates again.
0:11
>> Andy Burnham asks businesses to lean in
0:14
a bit more to help solve the youth
0:16
unemployment crisis and says barriers to
0:19
providing work experience to young
0:20
people are largely imagined. Plus, why
0:23
the controversial electric Ferrari luche
0:26
could now be a collector's item.
0:28
Interest rates look set to stay higher
0:30
for longer, putting more pressure on
0:32
borrowers, including the country's
0:34
biggest borrower, the government. A
0:36
growing number of the Bank of England's
0:38
MPC, that's Monetary Policy Committee,
0:40
voted in favor of raising interest
0:42
rates, three this time versus two back
0:44
in June, suggesting things could be
0:46
headed in the wrong direction for
0:48
inflation. Of course, six MPC members
0:51
still voted for a rate hold. Our
0:53
financial afficionado and chief reporter
0:56
Ali Lion joins us in the studio now.
0:58
Alli, we've heard from the BOE governor,
1:01
Andrew Bailey. What about the governor
1:03
from the north, Andrew Bernham? What
1:05
will he make of this?
1:06
>> I think he'll be disappointed but not
1:09
that surprised. Uh to recap, Bank of
1:12
England opted to hold interest rates at
1:15
3.75%.
1:17
This is the fifth consecutive meeting uh
1:21
that they have decided to hold. Um and
1:25
bear in mind uh what has happened since
1:27
then. Cast your mind back to December,
1:29
the last time they changed bank rates.
1:32
Um and we have seen inflation come right
1:35
down. But we have also seen uh the
1:37
outbreak of the war in the Middle East.
1:39
Um and ever since then, the bank has
1:42
basically been walking this enormous
1:44
tight rope. On the one hand, uh we are
1:47
seeing as I said price the speed of
1:49
price rises fall. um we are seeing this
1:53
really quite concerning disintegrate
1:54
disintegration of the labor market,
1:56
unemployment up, wage rises down,
2:00
vacancies up. But then on the other side
2:03
of that coin, we've got everything going
2:05
on in the Middle East, much higher
2:07
energy prices, and at the moment that
2:10
hasn't quite filtered through into our
2:11
economy, but MPC members are very, very
2:14
concerned that eventually it will.
2:16
reading through um some of the
2:17
commentary from the different MPC
2:19
members. And by the way, I think it's
2:20
great that they now publish that because
2:22
it's tremendous fun for journalists to
2:23
see where people disagree with each
2:25
other.
2:25
>> Um there are a lot of members on the
2:27
committee doing what the young people
2:28
refer to as 67s in their commentary. You
2:31
know, they're saying, well, on the one
2:33
hand this, on the other hand, that you
2:34
know, there are some signs that
2:36
inflation's going the wrong direction,
2:37
some signs it's going in the right one.
2:39
We're waiting for the consensus to build
2:42
in the data before we decide what to do
2:44
next. So is there is I mean the thing
2:46
underscores it all is is the uncertainty
2:47
of it all.
2:48
>> Yes. Uh a lot of uncertainty. Uh the the
2:51
sort of big thing that people are unsure
2:55
about uh in disagreement about is is
2:58
just quite how much of the initial
3:00
energy shock um which we are seeing
3:03
through higher energy uh prices and
3:06
energy bills come through now with the
3:08
the uh higher energy price cap. um just
3:11
how much of that will filter through
3:13
into the sort of real economy. Uh that's
3:15
the thing that you know gets gets MPC
3:18
members and rate setters really worried.
3:19
Do we see not just uh some a little bit
3:23
of price pressure in supermarkets, but
3:25
do we see me and you going to our editor
3:28
and saying, "I need a price rise to help
3:30
afford [laughter]
3:31
to help afford my higher rents or my
3:33
higher my higher bills." um do we start
3:37
seeing companies then raise their prices
3:40
in what's called the rage price spiral
3:42
because everyone's got higher wages. And
3:45
that's that sort of doom loop inflation
3:47
effect that we saw in 2022 that is
3:50
looking less likely just because of sort
3:52
of complicated things like the broad
3:54
supply of money um and uh and sort of
3:57
the that that slack in the labor market
3:59
that we've got that means that we can't
4:01
go to our bosses and ask for wage
4:02
prices. They'll just fire us. Um,
4:04
[laughter]
4:05
>> speak yourself.
4:06
>> Just very very very briefly, Alli, why
4:09
does why do higher interest rates result
4:11
in depressed um employment? Why why is
4:14
it harder to get people into work when
4:16
interest rates are higher?
4:17
>> Lower interest rates is basically like
4:20
this sort of release valve that gets uh
4:22
that gets given to a company, could get
4:24
given to a household uh through your
4:27
mortgage. Um and obviously if you're
4:29
paying less for for your loans, paying
4:32
less for um sort of the the rolling over
4:36
loans that you've got already uh already
4:39
existing, then immediately you've got a
4:41
bit more money to play with to give to
4:43
to staff um or to spend on investment.
4:47
And so that is genuinely the intention
4:49
of having interest rates higher is to
4:52
stop businesses doing these things to
4:54
stop households spending so much money
4:56
and cooling down the economy. Um and
4:59
then obviously once you lower it you
5:01
want to get the economy firing up a bit
5:03
more and keep those price rises at 2%
5:05
that Bank of England target. Then all of
5:08
those things happen in reverse.
5:09
>> Great explanation. Thank you very much
5:11
Alli. Um the easy jet takeover turns out
5:14
it's still up in the air. Okay,
5:17
>> I've learned from you, Simon. Uh, and
5:19
not yet a done deal.
5:21
>> There's still time for fight or flight.
5:23
[laughter]
5:24
>> Um, so yeah, all eyes will be on, uh,
5:27
RNS, the sort of London stock exchanges
5:30
new system, uh, on Monday evening
5:33
because that is the deadline for Castle
5:36
Lake, this American private equity
5:38
company to what's called put up or shut
5:42
up in a really nice phrase of sort of
5:44
stock exchange jargon. um whereby
5:47
>> sugar come up with that [laughter]
5:49
>> whereby they basically have to to tell
5:52
EasyJet and tell the stock exchange
5:53
whether they are going to match uh more
5:56
lucrative offer that EasyJet got uh
5:59
earlier this month from Apollo big scary
6:02
American private equity juggernaut um to
6:05
buy EJet off the stock market.
6:08
Currently, um, EJET have said that
6:11
they're minded to accept an Apollo offer
6:14
for5.7 billion pounds that came through
6:17
earlier this month. The Apollo offer
6:19
itself trumped an earlier offer from
6:21
Castle Lake uh, slightly lower. Um, and
6:25
yeah, Castle Lake are being incredibly
6:28
tight-lipped. I've been on the phones
6:29
for quite a lot of this morning trying
6:30
to work out what's going on. Incredibly
6:32
tight lipped about how they're feeling.
6:35
um and Apollo are also being very
6:37
tight-lipped on um just how much they're
6:40
willing to get into a bidding or should
6:42
Carson Lake um get uh decide to to go
6:46
toe-to-toe with them.
6:47
>> Finally, Alli, before we put up and shut
6:49
you up, if you [laughter] if you'll
6:50
forgive,
6:51
>> uh the Ferrari Luche uh better known to
6:54
our listeners as the Apple mouse on
6:56
wheels. How has that now become a
6:59
collector's item?
7:00
>> Well, no one suppose still we still
7:02
don't really know to be honest. Um,
7:04
Ferrari raised a huge amount of eyebrows
7:07
uh a couple of months ago with the
7:09
launch of its new EV company, a EV car
7:12
as you say called the Luche. It got an
7:16
absolutely awful reception at the time,
7:18
>> including by Martin on this podcast.
7:21
Yes.
7:21
>> Shares, but including by investors as
7:23
well. Shares in Ferrari, it's very rare
7:25
that a launch is that market moving.
7:27
Shares in Ferrari dropped 8% in that one
7:30
session. Um but uh if a report in a a
7:34
lesser financial newspaper is to be
7:37
believed uh uh on Thursday, um they're
7:41
already flying off the shelves. Um this
7:43
EV car has already surpassed what
7:47
Ferrari thought it would do in sales
7:49
just in a couple of months for the year.
7:51
Um and uh it sort of left some uh some
7:56
uh markets commentators, one of whom sat
7:58
to my left with a bit of egg on their
8:00
face, but also [laughter]
8:03
>> also markets commentator. That's
8:06
fantastic.
8:06
>> Um but also uh the former chair, a guy
8:10
by the name of Luca Cordiero. Um
8:13
apologies to our Italian listeners.
8:15
>> I mean, that was better than I did the
8:16
other [laughter] day. um and who called
8:19
for it to be stripped of its prancing
8:22
horse badge. It was such an abomination.
8:25
>> We should listen to the man uh uh a very
8:28
very very uh prestigious uh supercar
8:30
maker.
8:31
>> Well, thank you very much for that.
8:32
Alli, before we let you go, Simon,
8:35
>> this is not the only program that you
8:37
do, is it? You also do other bits of
8:40
broadcast.
8:41
>> Um one of them being GB News. And the
8:44
other day you woke up at in the dead of
8:47
night.
8:47
>> Yeah.
8:48
>> To speak to them and uh you did an
8:50
excellent hit explaining uh why
8:52
inflation [snorts] is is going to wreak
8:54
havoc on
8:55
>> Andy Bernham's spending priorities. And
8:58
and this Alli is how he was thanked.
9:02
>> Okay, Simon, thank you so much. Simon
9:05
Hunt there, the city editor uh for City
9:08
AM.
9:10
Right, moving on. I think now or is
9:12
always that hour we don't have any
9:13
breaks. Still not got used to the fact
9:15
that we have two hours without any
9:17
particular breaks. Um were you surprised
9:19
to see that how young that magazine
9:21
editor looks? [laughter]
9:23
>> Did you know that we have magazine
9:24
editors which are 15 years old? No,
9:27
Simon [laughter] has did a brilliant
9:27
job. I'm sure he's not 15. He just
9:29
looked it
9:29
>> really.
9:30
>> Uh well I mean it's quite a weird
9:33
experience for me as you can probably
9:34
[laughter] imagine but I'll take it as a
9:36
as a compliment complimenting my
9:38
youthful looks. I'm also not entirely
9:41
sure that Steve Denine, the amazing
9:43
editor of City AM magazine, will
9:46
[laughter] be overly pleased to hear
9:47
that Beverly Turner thinks that you've
9:48
taken his job.
9:51
>> Uh, thank you very much for coming in,
9:52
uh, Alli and well done, Simon. Really
9:55
nice hit on GB News. [laughter]
9:57
>> Uh, coming up after the break, Andy Bham
10:00
says that barriers to getting young
10:02
people work experience are largely
10:03
imagined by business rather than being
10:06
real. We'll be joined by his latest
10:08
interviewer next. Andy Bernham has said
10:11
that barriers to getting young people
10:12
into work are largely imagined rather
10:15
than well real. In only his third
10:18
sitdown interview, the prime minister
10:20
asked business to lean in that bit more
10:23
to the youth unemployment challenge, but
10:25
did not rule out diluting employment
10:28
rights to help young people get on the
10:30
career ladder. Let's take a quick listen
10:33
to what he said. I would always be open
10:36
to looking again at any regulations that
10:40
made that harder. But I um have had a
10:42
big drive in my previous role as mayor
10:45
of Greater Manster around 45day
10:47
workplacements. Now
10:49
>> they were an innovation of the last
10:50
conservative government, but they were
10:52
one I was very happy to support, indeed
10:54
proud to support because I think they
10:58
>> found a solution to the work experience
10:59
issue that this country's never found
11:01
before. and I got my team to get on the
11:05
phone and ring all the big players in
11:07
Greater Manchester to say, "Right, we
11:08
need more of these placements for young
11:10
people." And last year we got a thousand
11:12
extra placements just by persuasion.
11:15
>> Um, and I think sometimes the barriers
11:18
are imagined rather than real.
11:20
>> In some professions, law, financial
11:23
services, there maybe is a challenge in
11:25
having a 16 to 18 year old within the
11:27
environment. But I think there are
11:28
always always solutions. I understand um
11:32
the nervousness, but I am as prime
11:34
minister going to be asking uh the
11:37
business world just to lean in that bit
11:39
more to the youth unemployment
11:41
challenge. Now, the man doing the
11:43
questioning was Jimmy Mclofflin uh host
11:45
of the Jimmy's jobs podcast. We are
11:48
incredibly delighted to have you in the
11:50
studio. Thank you very much for coming
11:51
in. Pleasure
11:52
>> on the big day that the that the that
11:54
the interview drops. So, congrats on
11:56
that. Firstly, how do you set up an
11:58
interview with the prime minister? You
11:59
ask him for logistics reasons [laughter]
12:01
or yes, Simon, write this down.
12:04
>> Well, they just text me on Sunday
12:06
morning just being like, you know, would
12:08
you be around potentially this week to
12:10
interview the prime minister?
12:11
>> And you were like, I'll think about it.
12:12
>> I was like, you know, second sit down
12:14
interview. So,
12:15
>> second because he did Coonsburg and he
12:16
did uh
12:17
>> he did Gary Lker as well, but Lica was
12:18
before he was PM, right? So,
12:21
>> I'm taking this as uh as the second one,
12:23
but it all happened very fast
12:25
essentially like we were in 48 hours
12:27
later and we'd done K star a year ago
12:29
and I think to be fair to the number 10
12:31
team, they have been getting on the kind
12:32
of video podcast side of things for a
12:35
little while now. Of course, I was in
12:36
Downing Street 10 years ago. We didn't
12:38
even have a full-time photographer there
12:39
when I was there. So, I mean, these are
12:41
jobs of the future, the amount of team
12:43
they've got now doing the video side of
12:44
things. So, it's quite extraordinary to
12:46
see that. But, yeah, I was um keen to do
12:48
it. and he's done a lot of work in
12:50
Greater Manchester when it comes to jobs
12:51
and as you heard in the clip, you know,
12:53
he's often called business leaders to
12:55
try and get them to employ more young
12:57
people. Bit different to do that when
12:59
you're prime minister, but you know, it
13:01
is an interesting example of how much he
13:03
cares about it.
13:03
>> So, it falls to me to ask the rude
13:05
question. At least that's what it says
13:06
in the script. So, so [laughter] bear
13:08
with me, brace yourself. Obviously, you
13:10
are a very talented podcaster. We see
13:12
that from the from the numbers that your
13:14
podcast get. I mean, if our podcast was
13:16
doing anything close to that, we'd be
13:18
pretty happy.
13:18
>> You've only just started, right?
13:20
>> But but uh you are no Andrew Neil, and
13:23
it's not your job to be Andrew Neil
13:24
either. Your job is to, you know,
13:26
broadly have a have a conversation with
13:28
the people you interview rather than
13:29
interrogate them.
13:31
>> And there has been chatter the past few
13:33
weeks about uh Andy Burnham avoiding
13:37
scrutiny of the press, avoiding
13:39
interviews with newspapers, with
13:40
broadcasters. So, does it say something
13:43
that you were one of the first people he
13:45
interviewed, sorry, that you were
13:47
interviewed by him?
13:49
>> I mean, I think it does. I mean, to be
13:51
fair to him, he did do Laura Coonsburg
13:53
before and that was a much more kind of
13:54
grilling on kind of international
13:56
affairs. Would you take calls from
13:57
Vladimir Putin, etc. Um, and it would
14:00
have been very easy to him for him just
14:02
to have done a five-minute stand up with
14:03
us poster visit that he was doing in
14:05
Derby, ironically, which where I'm from
14:07
on Tuesday. But I think it is a certain
14:10
amount of scrutiny of where you've got
14:12
to sit down for 25 minutes as the prime
14:13
minister and take softer questions. Like
14:16
it is different. You know, David Frost
14:18
when he did it in the early 90s would
14:20
often get more out of people by kind of
14:22
like softly loosening them in. I mean,
14:25
we're not going for the killer line.
14:26
That is absolutely right. Like I'm not
14:28
going to catch the kind of prime
14:29
minister out on it. But it it is
14:31
interesting with this. We did Tony Blair
14:33
18 months ago and in the Tony Blair
14:35
interview he sort of came out quite
14:37
strongly against how much we were
14:38
spending on mental health as a society
14:40
and that made big waves at the time. So
14:43
I think it's it's a different type of
14:44
scrutiny. Yes, it's not Andrew Neil the
14:47
the kind of hard ball style of things. I
14:50
still think there's a real place for
14:51
that in politics actually like and I
14:53
think we'll we'll see a bit of a
14:54
comeback with it. One of the things that
14:56
we haven't got yet in the UK, just to
14:58
speak about podcasting landscape, is in
15:00
the States, you've got the kind of likes
15:02
of Rogan and Lex Freeman doing sort of
15:04
three-hour interviews. At the moment,
15:06
nobody's really doing that in the UK.
15:08
Um, you know, we got 25 minutes, good
15:09
for a prime minister. Um, but I I think
15:12
it'll be interesting to see where the
15:14
landscape goes in that because actually
15:15
sitting down with someone for three
15:16
hours, even if it is a soft
15:18
conversation, is quite hard, not what a
15:21
politician is used to. The other thing I
15:23
would say about Andy Bernham and the
15:24
reason why I think he's good at both the
15:26
short form and the long form and he's
15:27
got similarities with Donald Trump and
15:29
Nigel Farage in this which you probably
15:31
wouldn't mind me saying but they have
15:33
been doing this for a long time. Right.
15:34
All of those people have been involved
15:36
in public life in some way for 30 years.
15:38
So they're just very good at
15:40
communicating. I think it was one of Kia
15:41
Star's challenges actually was that he
15:43
hadn't actually been in politics. I
15:45
mean, yes, he'd been a communicator as
15:46
director of public prosecutions, but he
15:48
hadn't been in that sort of space of
15:50
where he was just used to talking it. I
15:52
think it's one of the reasons Bern's
15:53
quite good is that he has just done lots
15:55
of this.
15:56
>> There is something very populist about
15:57
him quite similar to Trump and Farage
15:59
that I've noticed in terms very good
16:01
communicator, speaks in broad brush
16:03
strokes. I mean, I'm going to come on to
16:05
the vibes thing a bit later. Um but
16:08
>> I think I I would also just say I mean
16:09
to add to what to what you've said is um
16:12
there maybe there is a certain degree of
16:14
entitlement among the Westminster lobby
16:16
journers where they think well it's it's
16:18
up to me and about five other people to
16:20
do all the questioning and no one else
16:21
should and if if anyone else gets that
16:23
job that's that's a
16:25
>> a sign of avoiding scrutiny. Uh and and
16:28
there was a feeling of that also when he
16:30
talked about number 10 north as though
16:32
there were just no journalists in the
16:33
north who would be able to to do that
16:35
kind of scrutiny. So uh you know it is I
16:38
suppose partly a recognition that the
16:40
media landscape is a bit more diverse
16:42
than it once was.
16:43
>> I think that's absolutely true.
16:44
>> Now come back to that clip. Um I thought
16:48
it was very instructive actually. You
16:49
know a lot of people in the business
16:50
community are going to watch that and
16:52
fear the worst that you know he thinks
16:55
the hurdles to getting young people into
16:57
work are imagined. Yes.
16:58
>> Rather than real. You a business
17:00
director in Downing Street. You know
17:02
what do you think? I mean, is he right
17:04
that actually business owners and people
17:07
who run businesses are just imagining
17:08
these problems?
17:09
>> No, I don't think he is. I mean, he was
17:11
talking about work shadowing
17:12
specifically, and I'm looking forward to
17:14
this clip or the clip of the interview
17:16
going out on LinkedIn and seeing what
17:18
people react to it, [laughter] right?
17:19
Because I think you're going to get a
17:21
lot of push back. Feral.
17:22
>> Exactly. Feral that it is quite hard to
17:24
sort of do work shadowing and so on. And
17:26
I enjoyed the way he said, you know, we
17:28
had 16, 17 year olds come in and they
17:30
would stand over my shoulder and get
17:31
proper work experience. It's like, yeah,
17:33
that's fine as great a mayor of
17:34
Manchester. I'm not sure you're going to
17:35
be able to do that when you PM and
17:36
you're going to be having slightly
17:37
different documents that you're uh
17:39
reading. Um, but I think there is a
17:42
there is a real challenge about just how
17:43
much it costs to employ people. Like
17:44
we've talked about this a lot with um
17:46
what Rachel Reed's brought in with
17:48
Nicks, but also the increases in
17:50
national minimum wage, etc. You're
17:52
basically looking now at spending almost
17:54
£100 on somebody per day in there, which
17:57
is a lot at the age of 18 just to
18:00
essentially be learning the ropes. Um,
18:02
you know, that basically works out now
18:04
an entrylevel person on the kind of
18:06
minimum wage almost cost the business
18:08
£30,000. Like that that is a big
18:11
basically a 40% increase over the last
18:12
five years.
18:13
>> That's a third space membership.
18:15
[laughter]
18:15
>> No, it's it's it's it's not
18:17
insignificant, right? like um
18:19
particularly when there's so many other
18:20
cost pressures on businesses as well at
18:22
the moment. So I think there there will
18:24
be some challenges around it. But I can
18:26
also totally see how he you know he
18:29
calls for sort of like he would look at
18:30
it if there were problems and so on. So
18:32
we may well be collecting the response
18:34
to our various LinkedIn posts and uh
18:36
sending them to him. One of the uh
18:38
charges that's leveled against Danny
18:40
Berner, which you you pick up on in the
18:41
interview with him is that people regard
18:44
him as a sort of career politician
18:46
that's never had a a proper job, never
18:48
had a you know a proper job in the in
18:50
the private sector. And I suppose there
18:52
is something quite different about or
18:55
some something quite valuable about
18:57
having experience of being an employer
18:59
to have some people that you are
19:01
responsible for which is quite different
19:02
from you know working in politics where
19:05
there are loads of public sector jobs
19:06
that kind of guaranteed and you don't
19:08
have that same level of responsibility.
19:10
So it is true to say that he lacks that
19:12
experience
19:12
>> completely and I have to say I wasn't an
19:14
entrepreneur before I worked at Down
19:16
Street. I was the entrepreneurship
19:18
adviser and so on. Very interested in
19:19
the area. am now an entrepreneur and it
19:21
is completely different when you're
19:23
approaching the end of the month and
19:24
you're looking at your kind of bank
19:26
statement. Have you got enough to pay
19:27
everyone? Can you pay people and
19:29
suppliers quickly as well? Um yeah, it's
19:31
a completely different kind of game
19:33
changer and you know you realize the
19:35
kind of stress that it it brings on it
19:37
and I think yeah it's definitely a
19:39
challenge but we haven't really had an
19:40
entrepreneur ever as prime minister. Um
19:44
so it it is just one of those strange
19:45
things. It is one of the things that I
19:47
think might change in our politics. give
19:48
you a quick prediction for the future
19:50
>> is in the last 20 years because of the
19:52
internet it's become much easier to get
19:55
rich in your kind of 20s and 30s
19:57
potentially and you have a lot of
19:59
entrepreneurs now that have built very
20:00
successful businesses and are perhaps
20:02
exiting in their mid30s
20:04
>> whereas it used to take a business
20:06
leader potentially that you know till
20:08
the age of 50 to kind of build that
20:10
wealth
20:10
>> I think it will be interesting to see
20:11
whether you get some more of those
20:13
people kind of come into politics
20:14
actually now um and actually I think the
20:16
mayor will it's quite an interesting
20:18
root for some of them. So, that's one to
20:20
watch.
20:20
>> Jimmy, thank you very much for coming in
20:22
and congratulations on a big scoop.
20:24
Jimmy, the Jimmy from Jimmy's job,
20:26
Jimmy, [snorts]
20:27
thank you very much.
20:28
>> Thanks very much, guys. I love the show.
20:30
>> Well, that's just about all we have time
20:31
for today. Thank you very much for
20:32
listening to Business as usual.
20:34
>> And don't forget to subscribe to CityM's
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daily newsletter and of course to
20:38
download our free app. It's got
20:40
everything those expensive news apps
20:41
[music] have, except ours is free. We'll
20:44
be back in your podcast feeds next week
20:46
on Tuesday at 6 a.m. But for now,
20:48
bye-bye.
20:49
>> Goodbye.
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