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Should the Tories be afraid of Nigel Farage's Reform UK? | The Editor's Interview
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Mar 11, 2025
The Editor's Interview sees City AM's Editor-in-Chief Christian May grill leading figures from the City, business and Westminster. In this episode, we see top Tory Andrew Griffith MP grilled by City AM Editor Christian May on the threat posed to the Conservatives by Nigel Farage's Reform UK; mistakes made by the Tories during their 14 years in power; Labour's growth agenda; and Kemi Badenoch's leadership. In a wide-ranging and lively discussion, the Shadow Business Secretary insists that his party is on the right path back to power and says that Labour's changes to employment law undermine the government's claim to be pro-growth. Get more of City AM 👇 🌐 http://www.cityam.com X(formerly Twitter): http://twitter.com/CityAM Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/cityam Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/city_am LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/company/cityam Produced by: Christian May, Emmanuel Nwosu, Joseph Curay Teneda #news #politics #opinion #business #interview #conservative #conservativeparty #tory #reform #reformuk #labour #labourparty #keirstarmer #rachelreeves #nigelfarage #uk #uknews #ukpolitics #ukbusiness
View Video Transcript
0:00
I don't think you get many points to be blunt calling in the regulators and asking The Regulators where you're going
0:05
to get growth from that's just another government by another flavor it's like asking a Convention of traffic wardens
0:12
to run the British Grand Prix is it possible at all for this to become a country again that enjoys a 2.5% Grace
0:17
rate yes how can it be done look I think cuz you didn't hand over a country enjoying a 2.5% Grace rate everyone was
0:23
a bit guilty of signing up to targets without having thought through the Folly of a single point moment in time Target
0:31
that was a bit arbitrary it was a bit arbitrary and it was a Folly and it was a conservative prime minister who did it well it was consensus In fairness so it
0:38
was but it I mean that's no defense of Madness is it how can you possibly ride enough horses to get over the line are
0:46
you scared of Reform UK I'm not no I'm I'm not scared um I'm
0:53
I'm very Focus hello and welcome to the editor
0:58
interview with uh me Christian May here at City uh my guest today is the conservative Shadow business secretary
1:05
Andrew Griffith who has enjoyed an illustrious career in the private sector prior to entering politics had a good
1:11
run in government now finds himself in opposition and uh specifically finds himself here in the cityam studi so
1:17
Andrew thank you very much for joining us here at City pleasure I'm a reader I'm a fan it's great to be here well you
1:22
can come again um we've got a lot to talk about um your brief as it stands now is of critical importance it feels
1:29
to me as if the only story in town has been or should have been uh business confidence
1:34
and and the economy business conditions since uh I would say since the budget but actually I'm sure we'll come on to
1:41
the fact that sentiment began to turn before the budget given how relentlessly gloomy um the government was on entering
1:47
office but we'll we'll get to that let's um just ease in a little bit because my first question for you really is as I
1:54
mentioned in the introduction you enjoyed a serious career in business prior to going into politics do you miss it yeah I miss it in some ways I mean I
2:01
don't look I don't regret it um I'm I was very lucky I did have a a great run
2:07
in business you don't always get to leave you know on a high as it were and we did well for our shareholders our
2:13
employees uh and the company was is was left in good stewardship um and then I
2:19
was looking for something to do as a second career if you like um and always believed in the values of public service
2:26
and if we're honest by goodness me you know we need more businessmen and women of all flavors and people from different
2:32
walks of life in Westminster because the challenge is that whoever our rulers are
2:37
you know that they have to deal with uh are very significant so you know I miss some of the attributes of business uh
2:43
it's lovely to be here in your wonderful offices at the heart of the square mile in the city where so much great work is
2:50
done people come uh and you know create new organizations put deals together all of those wonderful things and it's one
2:57
of the sectors that we're formidably good at as a country um but you know no looking back I've I've made a decision
3:03
to to go into government and public service and as you say there's a really big job of work to be done even from our
3:09
Vantage as the official opposition to this government we'll come on to life in opposition but I just want to pick up on
3:15
uh on London as a whole London is two cities the city of Westminster the city of London um where does your heart lie
3:21
the city the square mile or Westminster they're very different worlds well can I be really honest I mean the intersection
3:27
between those two is what interests me and and business you know businesses across the country small and large the
3:32
sort of the Third Leg of that but it's that intersection where everything good happens all of the problems in society
3:39
we're not going to solve how to give ourselves longer lives and better quality of Health Care without the
3:46
benefit of the private sector we're not going to be able to get the infrastructure that we need as a society
3:51
without mobilizing private Capital so I hope it doesn't sound TR but it's the intersection that interests me how do
3:57
you make Westminster understand business uh and capital make make those work
4:02
better and sometimes the other way around how do you explain to business you know why politicians make the
4:09
decisions they do what are the things that hold them back we probably yeah there's an entire industry devoted to
4:15
helping business under St Westminster um one of the things you've been quite critical about the current government is
4:20
the lack of of business experience around the cabinet table um and you might sort of pick apart different
4:26
governments and say traditionally people who serve in in in t cabinets maybe have had a career in business first perhaps
4:32
to a greater extent than than their labor counterparts how much of a problem do you really think that is well it's a
4:38
real problem if they don't then listen and and I try and be ecumenical and and you should play the ball not the man or
4:44
woman um but what business have been telling me over this seven or eight
4:50
months now that government has been in is that they're not listening they're not course correcting when they make
4:55
mistakes so if you think particularly the National Insurance rise it really hits some sectors of the
5:02
economy Hospitality retail in particular lots of part-time workers the change in
5:07
threshold is doing real damage um now a good government a listening government
5:13
whether it's from their own internal Knowledge from their own background before politics or even as professional
5:19
politicians who haven't done anything outside uh should be listening to business uh trying to make some
5:24
corrections and yet here we are just just under four weeks from when that bites you know 40 billion pounds of tax
5:31
hitting the economy and and I don't hear you may but I don't see any change of
5:36
Direction the government sort of you know put blinkers full on and it's sailing Straight Ahead into the iceberg
5:42
I I think that's that's where the difference really matters we'll come on to some of the government particular policies you mentioned National
5:48
Insurance obviously there's the employment rights reform um and there are some other big issues for for the business Community um but just picking
5:55
up on on uh the the extent to which the government has listened or not not listen um sometimes I like to sort of
6:02
play this little thought experiment was I think to myself if if if somebody said to me before the election here are a
6:08
handful of policies that one of the major parties is going to do they're going to push on a Major deregulatory Drive they're going to push for growth
6:15
Above All Else they're going to haul in all of the bureaucrats and regulators and and rip out the obstacles to
6:21
economic activity they're going to build another runw he throw they're going to go big on nuclear energy which party do
6:27
you think is responsible for these policies I might have said sounds like a Tory party Manifesto to me of course
6:32
none of those things were really in the Labour party Manifesto nevertheless they are I welcome them they you know if I
6:38
think about what the government's doing the things that excites me about the government are all longer term
6:44
initiatives what do you think accounts for this huge gap between the government coming in and then suddenly almost six
6:51
months later unveiling all of the things I just listed as their Central agenda
6:57
look well first of all words are cheap so so it is good that the government are talking about all of those things for
7:02
sure and by and large they enjoy our support when they do so particularly on uh regulatory reform you will know from
7:09
my own work as former city Minister I was pushing very hard the duty of growth on Regulators at that point their
7:16
position was to oppose it so fantastic that they're now going ahead and and get the point on on that um look I think
7:23
they probably and I'm not a commentator I'm a participant I think they probably scared themselves a bit uh we have seen
7:30
that very significant downgrade to growth more figures actually out from the British Chamber of Commerce recently
7:36
downgrading their expectations of growth I think we'll see that from the obr the ifs has been calling that out so I
7:43
suspect that the government have come in they certainly trash talked the economy
7:48
when they didn't need to uh the budget the adverse almost unanimous uh reaction from business um
7:56
has probably scared them a little bit and now we are them talk about growth I don't think you get many points to be
8:03
blunt calling in the regulators and asking The Regulators where you're going to get growth from uh that's just
8:08
another government by another flavor it's like asking a Convention of traffic wardens to run the British Grand Prix
8:15
right if you want if you want to know how to grow the economy it is business that grows the economy it's business
8:20
Risk Takers private Capital they're the people that hire they're the people that make decisions to invest um and and
8:27
that's where you should be listening uh I think there's a little bit of work to do there but I'm trying to be as as as balanced as I can uh and it's good that
8:35
people are trying to tackle some of these long seated issues big one holding us back you know people talk about
8:41
planning there's this whole Corpus of judicial review that just chills
8:46
everything in government it makes it interminably slow it's why there are so many consultations now a government of
8:53
lawyers should be perfectly placed we we tried to reform it and and did run into the sand a bit on that and and you you
8:59
know regrets one has many um but you know that would be a perfect thing for a government led by lawyers to pick up and
9:06
actually bit like Nixon to China go really hard on reforming judicial review you'll give your full support the Tory
9:12
party's full support to the current government's efforts to succeed where you failed so all of these areas of
9:18
planning reform I prefer to think of carrying on things that were unfinished Christian but well I'm sure if that's
9:24
how if that's how you want to I think a lot of people would would point to a number of areas in which the last government failed um and and governments
9:30
after about 14 years of course inevitably start to run into the sand as you put it but you know all these
9:35
blockers on on on planning Etc and I know the argument about Tory home counties and not wanting to build quite
9:42
as enthusiastically as Angela Rena for example he doesn't have to worry about so many constituencies in that territory
9:47
I get those arguments but there's no denying that you know the the landscape that this government forget what party
9:54
they are this government came in and looked around and said well we can't get anything done in this country there now seems to be this extraordinary consensus
10:00
that we can't get anything done in this country hard to argue with that it's hard to argue hard to argue with that
10:06
slow for people you follow theic the state's pretty expensive yeah but follow the logic you know you have to say well
10:12
who's been running the country for 14 years how how do you account the the the malaise um when we come on to specific
10:19
things about look how do you get things done why are things so slow why is it not working for people if we're being
10:24
ecumenical the malaise has gone on for decades the the increasing risk of version of a large public sector the ple
10:32
the proliferation of regulators I think the government set up you know they've talked about putting growth duties on
10:39
Regulators they've talked about even changing some of the tone at the top of regulators 100% on board with that right
10:45
100% supportive of that however at the same time they've also set up about 50
10:50
at the last count new Regulators there's another one coming next week the regulator for fairer work or something
10:57
so you know it it is important to walk the walk as well as talk the talk coming
11:02
from business into Westminster and I use this phrase a lot but words are cheap it
11:07
is ultimately the actions right we got some good talk on planning reform goodness me London needs to build this
11:14
is one of the great Global cities but the the level of house building
11:19
dwellings in this great capital city is poultry you know it's just desol um and
11:24
that needs to change that's where the homes that we most need is uh should be
11:29
but as of now all we've got are words there isn't yet a planning Reform Bill
11:36
and it's the again Dr to be to Paran but it's the labor mayor of London he didn't need a new bill didn't need legislation
11:42
he's got all the planning Powers already has had them for many years those are
11:47
the things we need to crack so it's interesting to consider you know labor government that traditionally or by
11:53
instincts is probably more comfortable with spending more um more comfortable
11:58
looking after public Services if you like um that comes into office at a time when the economy I mean the economy is
12:05
is not growing the economy You could argue has been shrinking parts of it have been shrinking since the Labor
12:11
budget last October but the problem is bigger than that and you talk about Malay over decades and I do appreciate
12:17
you know we can't have this conversation without being mindful of the pandemic and you know hundreds of billions of
12:23
pounds of cost associated with that the energy shocks and War Etc but even you
12:28
know mve back prior to those events you talk about a Malay that's set in we are
12:34
a country now that you know what turns a bad day into a good day is if the growth
12:40
forecasts are are 1% not 0.9% can we possibly be satisfied with
12:45
that how is it I mean is it possible at all for this to become a country again that enjoys a 2.5% Grace rate yes how
12:52
can it be done yes look I think CU you didn't hand over a country enjoying a 2.5% grow rate no and as I say I mean we
12:59
haded over a country that was growing not shrinking we're now in a per capita recession but but I don't disagree with
13:05
your basic premise that the the big issue is how do you get good proper growth how do we get our mojo back if
13:11
you like I think that's particularly true of the city of London a financial center you're not bluntly going to grow
13:17
the UK economy anyway unless you've got that big engine of growth uh here in London doing its job and allocating
13:24
Capital to businesses um and I think it's on a number of levels I think you do need
13:29
that real sea change amongst Regulators I don't want to go too back in the past but the the the Blair right Revolution
13:37
did some good things it brought people into sort of The Wider orbit of government with arms length Regulators
13:43
who had experience from other walks of life including from business but it also
13:49
put them Beyond Democratic control and accountability so that there were limitations on my ability as City
13:55
minister to actually you know really move the DI on the risk appetite of
14:01
regulators um to to get them fully on board with reforming some of the rules
14:06
in city of London that had been holding us back uh and the risk aversion that had been prevalent really since 2008 so
14:13
so one of the things we've got to do and people like K we talk about rewiring it sounds quite dull but actually it's
14:19
really important to get the the wiring of how democratic government works and delivers for people because when people
14:26
get frustrated with governments including the one that I was part of until last July the frustration wasn't
14:32
necessarily the policies you know people wanted safer streets they wanted us to control the borders they definitely
14:38
wanted more economic growth they wanted more homes uh for their children and grandchildren the issue wasn't that we
14:43
were trying to do the wrong things by and large the issue was that they didn't feel many cases rightly that we were
14:50
delivering so it is a it's a delivery issue as far as I'm concerned and you need to change how governments operate
14:58
and deliver yeah well we will come on to what Cammy Bok Tory party is is all about but before that let's just stick
15:05
on the issue of The Regulators again it's fascinating to me that it doesn't really matter which party it is but it is particularly interesting that a labor
15:10
government has come in and said we are held back by the regulators and we need to we need to get them out of the way
15:16
somebody put it to me in the city the other day while still creating new ones whilst creating new regulations F somebody in the city put it to me the
15:21
other day that you know with the exception perhaps of some individuals at the top nobody really goes to work in a regulator because they they want to
15:27
unleash growth and rip up red tape so I think it's it's it's it's ambitious to say the least for the government to call
15:33
Regulators in and basically just say be more growthy um if you want to rewrite
15:39
the regulator's Mandate this is a job for an act of parliament isn't it you know the the fca's Mandate the cma's
15:45
Mandate was set down CMA came into existence under the last conservative government it was an act of parliament
15:51
if you want to open that up and change its remit then do so and do it properly it's is it is it sufficient whether it's
15:58
you doing it you know your last job as City minister or the current government simply saying to them help us out we
16:04
want you to be a little bit more if you want to change their remit change their remit is that what you're you mean by a
16:10
proper rewiring I think the the the restoring Democratic
16:16
accountability is important so so our elected ministers can can choose to make
16:21
more decisions including decisions on on Personnel at the Top If that's an impedance
16:27
um there there is a piece about setting the right remits now you know without getting too technical for your viewers
16:34
as you know remit letters are often sent annually they're certainly sent once every Parliament so there's a lot that
16:40
one can do without having to go all the way back to Parliament and passing primary legislation there are remit
16:45
letters for all of the financial Regulators uh and for most of the economic Regulators there's a lot that you can do and you're right it is
16:53
absolutely clear in my view that it is politicians who need to take ownership and responsibility uh for that but then
16:59
the organizations need to get on board properly as well uh and the leadership needs to either fully sign up to that or
17:06
or or get out the way um and you need the organization to to strive properly
17:11
not passively resist um or just be caught by pass momentum and I understand
17:16
what it's like to work in some of these organizations you know you sometimes feel understandably you get whipped if
17:23
anything goes wrong and that's what drives that culture of risk aversion we the leaders true of leadership in any
17:30
organization need to accept that risk need to own that risk so the organizations can get on and do the
17:36
things that we are seems to be that seems to me the area that I'm not sure this government has fully thought
17:41
through and in their traditional sort of um you know slightly formal way the the
17:48
heads of The Regulators are trying to make that point I mean the the chairman of the FCA wrote in City not long ago um
17:54
in in quite candid terms that he he really wants government to understand what it is they're asking for here if
18:00
you want us to have a you know more of an interest or a bias towards risk you
18:06
need to appreciate what that might mean and I think what they're basically saying was the next time Mrs miggins in
18:12
Cardiff Falls victim to a Facebook scam you know don't come crying to us but now I'm sure they would dispute that that's
18:17
the kind of Regulation they're going to get rid of but what they're talking about is saying are you are you fully aware of what you're asking of us to do
18:23
there will be more failure there will be more difficulty if the upside is that there's more growth and more Innovation
18:29
then we need to have that conversation do you think that do you think the country is is is participating in that conversation because it's as it's a
18:35
cultural mindset as much as it is a remit letter yeah there's a there's a big there's a big cultural piece um I
18:42
think the answer is you have to explain what those trade-offs are right again you know there's no use having lots of
18:49
talented politicians in Westminster who never actually surface what the different tradeoffs are if you want more
18:55
economic growth and you want people off welfare into work do not pass a 225 page
19:02
employment bill that will drive people to not take a chance on that next employee if this then that very very
19:10
clear and that is the role of good leadership in any organization and it should be the role of good leadership uh
19:16
from Westminster now there's other bits you know every executive in an
19:21
organization daily makes those risk tradeoffs they don't all need an overly defensive mandate letter to sort of
19:28
point you know Point having the bottom drawer to point to they they do that as a natural activity um and one of the
19:35
things that our Regulators would benefit from is more practitioner voices you know I was very very keen whenever
19:41
making uh public appointments to regulatory bodies to bring in practitioners because they find those
19:47
trade-offs much more natural than if you've come up solely through a you know regulatory or a public service
19:54
background you know there can be a tendency for defensive regulation
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and if you you can't get you know specific sign off then it's much better to not approve the next Innovation you
20:06
know to not take a chance on a new product uh or a new market entrance just in case you might get criticized later
20:12
okay one area before we come on to the politics one one area that I think the
20:17
wind is really moving um is Around the Net Zero debate Future Energy debates uh
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it's it's pretty Flagship stuff for this government or certainly Flagship stuff for Ed Millan there seems to be all sorts of rumors as to the extent to
20:31
which expensive Flagship as well rumors as to the extent to which he's he's still taking the cabinet with him uh on
20:36
this journey um but we are beginning to see the market individuals individual
20:42
firms and people really starting to make their own decisions about this in a way where the consensus uh was all even just
20:49
three or four years ago was was absolutely in this direction you know perhaps best uh seen in BP's great uh
20:55
you know commitment to um basically ceased to be an oil and gas company uh
21:01
and we've also now seen them completely uh turn around on that and say actually I'm sorry we're we're going to put an
21:07
end to a lot of our um investment in Renewables and we're going to refocus like our Rivals have started to do on
21:14
oil and gas again because that's where not just where the money is but that's that's what needs to be achieved and and
21:19
there are other ways in which we see that debate shift we see a lot of banks have started to quietly sometimes not so
21:24
quietly pull out of Industry groups on sustainable Finance Etc I think you add all these things together there does
21:30
appear to be you know what the internet would refer to as a Vibe shift um i' be interested if your thoughts on the
21:36
extent to which you see that in Westminster it might be the sort of last hold out for for enthusiasm in this direction but do you detect that do you
21:43
think that there is a sort of movement back from from some of the earlier enthusiasm in this way and if so is it is it is it just economic reality yeah I
21:51
look I do absolutely see that Vibe shift or that pivot um and you know I think a
21:57
number of things have have happened obviously the changing geopolitical situation has alerted people to uh you
22:03
know what actually extended Supply chains look like and some of the tradeoffs uh embedded within that the
22:09
very high cost we have in the developed world the highest cost in the UK of
22:14
industrial energy electricity Supply that that you cannot you know we are de-industrializing as a consequence of
22:22
that uh and I think that has been seen as well if you look at the the impact on our competitiveness uh as a consequence
22:29
frankly others have not moved so embedded in assumptions that prior generations of of politicians had made
22:37
were both the development of Technology adoption curves and and I know even in
22:42
my old Lake TV Land you know trying to trying to exactly predict consumer adoption cycles of new technology or the
22:50
uh the way in which technology would scale and the cost would reduce uh is a bit of a mugs game and and everyone was
22:56
a bit guilty of signing up to targets without having thought through the Folly of a single point
23:03
moment in time Target that was a bit arbitrary it was a bit arbitary and it was a Folly and it was a conservative
23:09
prime minister who did it well it was consensus In fairness so it was but it I mean that's no defense of Madness is it
23:16
as I say I mean I'm not excusing myself either from the fact I wasn't there in Parliament when that happened I'm not
23:22
sure I would have you know had the same foresight either so full full culpability um but it was certainly the
23:27
case that everybody and other parties were egging the country even at that point to go even further and even faster
23:35
now that is if you like a there's a wedge there um the conservative party
23:40
does not think it is wise to continually attack companies that are engaged in
23:45
hydrocarbons today but might be transitioning uh to other sources of energy in the future or to turn our back
23:52
on the North Sea with I think 3.3 billion pounds of extra barrels of
23:58
extractable reserves uh right under our metaphorical feet uh at a time when we
24:03
have both energy in security and high energy cost so so there is a diversion you know I couldn't calibrate exactly
24:10
where everyone is on that but but my party recognized and and within my brief
24:16
it's really important to me that as we come forward with strategies for business as the government publishes its
24:22
own industrial strategy which keeps getting pushed back but we're promised um that we absolutely recognize you've
24:28
got a be competitive uh in energy costs just as you have in other in other factors speaking of being competitive
24:35
let's take a moment to consider the state of opinion polls across the country um it's it's really quite
24:42
interesting to note the extent to which the Reform Party Nigel far's party or reform UK as they're called uh is now
24:50
quite often seen at the top of national opinion polls and I know I know all you know perfectly aware of kind of
24:55
politicians responses and answers about polls being a snapshot and only one poll matters and it's four years away Etc how
25:01
much does it weigh on your mind though and on the on the mind of your party and your party leadership and colleagues
25:06
that reform UK is a real problem for you look I think it's not unhelpful sorry
25:13
it's not um unhealthy that politics is a competitive domain people have put forward their ideas uh their their
25:20
people um and what their vision of the country is and it's not a huge surprise to me Christian that only really a few
25:27
months after you know an election where we were kicked out of government um the
25:32
surprising Factor if you like is that after only seven or eight months this government is already deeply unpopular
25:39
they've turned a very low mandate at the last general election into a ceiling not a floor um and people are therefore not
25:46
immediately going back to option A and hunting around and seeing if there's another option C that maybe they should
25:52
think of TR as well now the controllable look what can we do in that what what can I do what do I worry about is are we
25:58
presenting a more united front people don't vote for parties that are at war with themselves so are we as the
26:04
conservative party now United all pulling together I think we are the story you're not able to write is of
26:10
division within the conservative party and can we and it will take time in my view can we show that we are a credible
26:18
opposition which is sort of the position in our constitution where you audition to be a credible government now a lot of
26:25
that's you know I won't say backr stuff but I'll be in Parliament with my colleagues fighting line by line for
26:31
business on the employment Rights bill next week we were doing that on some other bills earlier this week you know
26:37
you don't always see that you definitely don't see that on sort of the five minute clip of pmqs but that if we do
26:43
that systemically and well is sort of our AUD our audition to say people
26:48
didn't give us their trust last July but as they look to where they want their country to be led going forward they're
26:55
willing to do so again and give us a hearing to the ideas that we will formulate is that the plan to see off
27:02
the Electoral threat of Reform UK to say we will just qu quietly competently show
27:08
ourselves and reveal ourselves to be a sensible Choice again um because that is a strategy another strategy just talked
27:14
about is coming to some form of accommodation with them and the debates that I keep you know having or hearing
27:20
or picking up on or overhearing with around Tory circles is we need actually to you know refind and re-energize the
27:27
kind of Cameron Osborne Southern kind of floating libdem demographic and others
27:33
saying are you mad you know look what Boris achieved in the red W this is where we need to go how can you possibly ride enough horses to get over the line
27:41
are you scared of Reform UK I'm not no I'm I'm not scared um I'm
27:48
I'm very focused we are very focused as a party on on doing our best best job so
27:55
who's the Coalition gets you over the line who are the voters don't be too glip but but look at sky there were only
28:01
two forms of customer existing customers and potential customers and in a what
28:07
we'd all acknowledge is a more volatile political situation uh where the UK faces some really real challenges you
28:14
know how do we pay for the fact we're all living longer how do we pay for our expensive Health Care System where there
28:20
are more wonderful things that we can treat to give people a good quality life how do we pay for an increasing defense
28:28
budget where the money over many years has been harvested and then rearmed into welfare and other things these are
28:34
really big I don't think many people sit in particular boxes on the political spectrum they just want answers they
28:41
want a they want a competent government that's going to above all else grow the economy because otherwise we are going
28:48
to continue to slip down the GDP per capita League tables we are not any
28:54
longer sadly one of the top 20 countries in the world for GDP per capita there
28:59
are forecasts out there that say that per capita income is going to exceed
29:04
that in Poland Poland is going to exceed that in the UK you know these are really really big issues so I think there's
29:10
more than enough for us to be getting on with the electorate will make their choice I remember days when ukip won
29:17
national elections I can just about remember the sdp you know that were in
29:22
their moment they had a moment and they were they were riding very high none of those are controllable variables for KY
29:28
Bok for us as Shadow cabinet members the controllable variable and there is a bit
29:34
it's not just doing it in the back office it's coming out and putting ourselves under your scrutiny uh to
29:39
explain what we're doing can you see a position down the line where however informally the conservative party comes
29:46
to some sort of accommodation with reform UK with a View to a loose Coalition after the next election uh I
29:55
look I can I can see perfectly foreseeably a scenario where the government not
30:00
withstanding good intentions you know not withstanding some of the things uh that are good that we might support them
30:06
nevertheless because they haven't fully assimilated some of the things that held us back from what we were trying to do
30:12
for example International laws for example holding us back I can perfectly envisage a scenario without being
30:19
delusional uh whereby we get back into office with a significant majority alone
30:25
at the next election that is after all sort of What reversed itself at the last
30:30
election a government elected in 2019 with one of the highest ever majorities
30:36
that then clearly turned into uh a a very significant majority for another single party
30:42
so I'm going to hold on to that idea I'm not going to talk about other parties I'm going to talk about ourselves and if
30:49
we have the right plans for the challenges that the economy and the country face you know why wouldn't
30:55
people vote for us well right but the uh I tell you this conversation would have infuriated reform UK because their
31:00
position is that uh you know they should be the ones being asked would they Dain to come to an accommodation with the
31:06
conservatives would they allow you to come to an accommodation with them well as I say look it's a competitive domain
31:12
I don't go out my way to criticize any other party I'll criticize the government where I think they are doing
31:17
something wrong because it's their hands on the wheel today um but our job is just to to be the best that we can be
31:25
and and you can't operate in a democracy and believe passionately that democracy is the best form of government uh and
31:31
then say people shouldn't have other choices okay we'll just have a quick chat about the Tory party and then we'll end with a quick look at the spring
31:37
statement coming up um you know I hear and I read occasionally I write all sorts about um
31:45
what Camy badok is doing um and this is your opportunity to tell us because I'm a little confused sometimes you know the
31:52
idea initially we heard was no policy announcements take our time rebuild the right to be heard slowly build trust
31:58
maybe start talking about policy in a few years but but you know I put it to you that actually what your lot is is
32:05
facing is learning for some people for the first time how to do opposition and
32:10
how to be in opposition and you know some people would also say that by opposing policies You Are by nature of
32:17
the ACT you know putting putting a policy position in your own pocket so it's not really credible to say we're
32:23
not going to start coming out of policy so but I'm interested in the idea as Kem has said that she wants a very
32:29
substantial Battle of ideas she wants to totally look again at what the state does how it does it how it's funded so
32:35
how's that process going uh well it's early days um I think the government's been in what eight months now this
32:42
opposition sort of in under K's leadership has been about four months so pretty pretty early days um and lots to
32:48
do look I think you're you you're right and you're wrong on policy if you like I
32:53
mean the first thing you know my my version of this is your principles then you hang underneath those principles
32:59
policies you know big areas that matter to people and then you've got more detailed plans and even the people to
33:05
execute them underneath um and we we're sort of still at the principles and policies layer um but I I think it has
33:13
been misheard if people thought that there was no policies and that there'd be this sort of period and then suddenly
33:20
you know Vatican like smoke coming out and suddenly they'd all be there at once I don't think that was ever said um and
33:26
we do have some policies as you're right um you have to have a view as to what you would do differently on for example
33:33
things like the vat on Independent education uh we're very clear we will reverse that uh the family business
33:40
death tax and the family farm death tax uh again we have a clear policy um
33:46
within you know what what we will be able to do that reverses that on day one
33:52
of the next conservative government and you're right there'll be there'll be other measures as we uh go and oppose
33:57
specific things that the government are doing and there'll be other things that we will support the government um I think most mostly on foreign policy not
34:05
the disastrous chos Island deal uh but on most areas of Pol of foreign policy
34:11
you know there's a cautious support for the government I really hope they'll get in the room on trade for example so long
34:18
answer but it's not as binary as no policy um what km's done I think really well so far is clearly stabilize the
34:26
ship and and coming off the back of you know our biggest ever defeat it seemed
34:31
to me perfectly within the realm of contemplation that the remaining 121 of us would form an orderly firing squad
34:37
and finish the job um and that hasn't happened and Kem has United you know all
34:43
of those leadership candidates that were willing to serve in a c in a shadow cabinet you know draw the different
34:48
wings of the party together we are working I think well the story you're not writing is about disunity um we're
34:55
starting to discuss where we'll be on policy we'll be starting the work of that policy formulation and it'll be a
35:02
little bit you know I can see it would be damned if you do damned if you don't if we sort of suddenly rushed out a
35:07
whole slew of policies people would say these guys haven't taken any time to reflect they're not listening you know
35:14
maybe those policies would get out of dat anyway quite quickly before uh any election was in contemplation so we're
35:20
going to take our time and some people will say well where is it come on yeah fair enough I want it all tomorrow but
35:26
there is an election coming how big a test to the local elections um look all elections are a
35:32
test but they're their low turn now they're from a high base so the last
35:38
time these particular configuration of uh local councilors were contested uh
35:43
the party was in a very different place as a I believe a postco sort of Bounce which which was a phenomenum at that
35:50
time so you know I think you've got to contextualize everything rather than try and read too much into one particular
35:56
set of Elections I'm sure you would yeah um let's just end with a quick look at the spring statement um CD readers
36:04
viewers listeners will will know um we've kept a very close eye on on the reality that that the chanc is going to
36:09
face at the spring statement and indeed it's no surprise that I consider a lot of the difficulty that she's going to
36:15
find herself in to be of her own making and you know not that I want consensus to break out between the two of us but I
36:20
dare say you would agree with that but what are you going to be looking out for in particular in the runup to that we've obviously got OB forecasts to consider
36:28
um and then the fiscal headr room debate and the consequential public spending or
36:33
indeed uh tax Rises to consider how are you going to be approaching that uh well first of all even even going into that
36:42
it is not too late to change course on any of the measures that have got us where we are so you know businesses are
36:50
are frantic actually trying to balance the books and work out what they're going to do on headcount uh because of
36:56
the National Insurance rise that's that's just a month away but a month's a long time in politics and there's still
37:01
chance for the chancellor to change course or to offer some amelioration or mitigation uh of that um so when you are
37:09
in a hole stop digging and and yet I I would say that the government is still
37:15
digging they're still barreling ahead with all of those changes uh and they're aiding and abetting that with
37:21
legislation likely employment Rights bill which is hundreds of pages of extra
37:26
red tape for employers that will chill our otherwise relatively flexible labor
37:32
market it's a bill that's got all sorts of things that Tony Blair and Gordon Brown never tried to relitigate we've
37:38
got a pretty decent balance I think between workers rights perfectly legitimate role of trade unions but also
37:46
uh what actually helps people into employment so first thing between now and then stop digging see if you can
37:53
reverse some of the measures you've already put in place that have crushed growth in the economy and certainly shove the employment Rights bill
38:00
business would really welcome that you know u-turns are you know they're embarrassing for one day in politics but
38:07
but that would make a huge difference to business confidence to British businesses I don't think there's a single business in in this country um
38:15
that thinks the employment Rights bill is good for for for them or what they're doing um on the spring statement you
38:22
know the the chancellor needs to be very clear now that there is significant capacity to cut um the state spends you
38:30
know the the less productive part of the economy spends 1.5 approaching 1.5
38:36
trillion a year it was always naive and we said at the time that running that level of spend with only hedum of 9.9
38:45
billion you know and others the obr themselves observed that was one of the lowest ever levels of hedum um so the
38:51
chancellor made her own fiscal rules and now it looks like she's going to miss even the new ones that she made up up um
38:58
so a bit of self-awareness would be quite good from the chancellor the you know bit of humility do you think it's
39:04
going to come down that closing that Headroom Gap is going to come down to spending cuts or do you think there's going to be some tax Rises either now or
39:11
in the Autumn and my second question on that is that this government will pursue one assumes any cuts to public spending
39:18
with regret uh or at very least sort of badged as a sort of Reform whereas you think correct me if I'm wrong just
39:25
Discerning a slightly kind of um different you know philosophical ideological perspective which is
39:30
actually the state needs to shrink full stop never mind doing it in in March because you need to to hit your rules
39:37
actually I'm a philosophical conservative and for the United Kingdom to compete against other you know fast
39:44
growing Nations that are delivering better for their citizens you know there is a point where you have to get back to
39:50
the level of spend of the government and and restore that back to the productive sector whether it's removing burdens of
39:57
business fewer maybe better Regulators um or just having less dead weight in
40:03
the in The Ruck suck as we try and run that Global race um so I think you know you can talk about growth and supply
40:11
side reform and governments are good at talking about what others should do about what planners should do for
40:17
example government itself you know could do a lot of Supply sod reform it could have fewer people it could make faster
40:24
decisions so I think that would be a good in all circumstan es now the fact is that I think that it's going to be
40:29
forced upon the chancellor and had she been able to go after Public public
40:35
spending cuts in the first place you wouldn't have had to have big Rises the National Insurance increase it's 25
40:42
billion gross but it actually only raises about 9 billion for the government after it's sort of roundt
40:48
tripped what it pays on its own employees um and so if you'd gone after
40:54
cutting public spending in the first place you wouldn't be in the mess that she's in now all right we'll have to
41:00
leave it there Andrew Griffith Shadow Secretary of State for business thanks very much for joining us here at C a.m.
41:06
okay
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