Up next in 10
In the latest episode of CIty AM’s Boardroom Uncovered, Pizza Express CEO Paula MacKenzie delivers a frank assessment of business challenges under the Labour Party government.
She describes the government’s approach as “unbelievably harsh” in how it treats large-employing firms, especially in hospitality.
The industry, she says, was already reeling from the pandemic and now faces rising taxes and National Insurance burdens that threaten jobs and growth.
MacKenzie also reflects on how the last Budget’s increases were “brutal” and unexpected, and shares how in her early working life hospitality offered first jobs to many young people - a reality she fears may be undermined.
With a backdrop of wider sector stress - including slide in values and losses at major chains - this episode explores what business leaders are facing and what they hope from the upcoming Budget.
#business #economics #pizza #news
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0:00
I then just literally start to imbue the
0:02
brand. My office at home is painted the
0:04
Pizza Express blue of restaurants.
0:05
So almost the Daniel Day.
0:06
Look at me like she's incredibly woo.
0:08
How does one go from fgging fried
0:10
chicken to flogging pizzas?
0:12
But this is the ultimate question. I
0:13
learned this from coaching. So I'm going
0:14
to save you £10,000 worth of therapy at
0:16
this point. It's just unbelievable to me
0:18
that the Labour Party clues on the has
0:22
taken such a harsh stance around
0:24
businesses that employ people. Pizza
0:26
Express was in the news for all the
0:27
wrong reasons. Getting fined by the
0:29
government for not paying some staff the
0:31
minimum wage. Rather unacceptable, isn't
0:33
it? Prince Andrew and what happened in
0:36
2019? Pizza Express woking absolutely
0:38
everywhere getting slated. How do you
0:42
attempt to repair a company's reputation
0:46
when they've been hit by a PR storm
0:48
that's absolutely not of their making at
0:50
all?
0:51
I do love that you've dug up every pizza
0:53
story.
0:54
The PR in in the corner is sweating, I
0:57
think. Hello and welcome to another
0:59
edition of City AM's Borum Uncovered
1:01
with me, John Robinson. My guest for
1:03
this episode is Paula McKenzie, the CEO
1:05
of Pizza Express. McKenzie started out
1:07
at EY before taking on roles at Diagio
1:10
GSK and Innocent Drinks before leading
1:12
KFC in the UK. Since joining Pizza
1:15
Express in 2022, she's been attempting
1:17
to turn around the chain, which has had
1:19
its fair share of troubles. So, can this
1:21
high street icon return to the heights
1:23
of the past while battling the harsh
1:25
economic challenges the restaurant
1:26
industry faces? Without any further
1:28
delay, let's dive in.
1:30
Well, Paula, thank you very much for
1:31
coming on board recovered. It's great to
1:32
have you here.
1:33
It's great to be here. You're welcome.
1:34
I suppose the first question, the point
1:36
I have to start with is this. What on
1:38
earth is the profit markup on the dough
1:40
balls?
1:42
That's outrageous. What a question. God,
1:45
how much do you love a dough ball?
1:46
Love a dough ball.
1:47
Right. They're just such a
1:48
crowd-pleaser. It's one of the joys of
1:49
this job. Wherever I go, people
1:50
invariably have a dough ball based
1:52
question. Uh, of course that's, you
1:54
know, trade secret. Uh, no, no, totally
1:56
trade secret. Um, but fun fact for you,
1:59
we make our own dough balls. I mean, we
2:01
make our own dough. So, we have our own
2:03
factory up in Oxfordshire. Uh, our
2:05
bakery, no less. And that's where
2:07
everything comes from. Uh, and all dough
2:09
balls are produced in every single
2:10
restaurant every single day.
2:11
The person who came up with that as a as
2:13
a menu item is genius.
2:15
Is absolute genius cuz you're just
2:17
printing money. Surely
2:19
it's not quite like that. Our food and
2:20
drink team will be delighted. And and
2:22
another fun fact for you, we now have a
2:23
whole dough ball's menu essentially.
2:25
There is so much innovation to be had
2:27
from the you know the humble dough with
2:28
all the like the condiments and things
2:30
on the side.
2:31
Well, so like at Christmas you'll be
2:32
able to have snowball dough balls, if
2:34
you can say that. See, I just said it.
2:35
Snowball.
2:36
Snowball dough balls. And we even have a
2:38
snowball dough bble. That's
2:40
I've made you laugh.
2:41
Say that 10 times fast.
2:42
Snowball do bble.
2:45
So yeah, they are iconic for Pizza
2:47
Express, right? And it is the gift that
2:48
keeps on giving. You're right. Um but
2:50
that's cuz they're so moorish, right?
2:52
And
2:52
okay, the plain adobo you eat with
2:54
garlic butter, but don't forget like our
2:56
pizzas are hand crushing garlic into
2:58
butter every morning.
2:59
Um and the sweet variety that has like a
3:01
white crema dip and a salted caramel
3:03
dip. And you can even have them in the
3:05
shape of a Christmas tree and so I'm
3:06
hungry now. I know. I'm going to make me
3:08
drool, too.
3:10
What is your uh Pizza Express order? Do
3:12
you have a go-to whenever you go and uh
3:14
I do
3:14
inspect the the restaurants? Well, if
3:17
you're if you're genuinely doing a food
3:18
test, you should order a margarita
3:20
because the plainer the pizza. No,
3:21
genuinely I love that. Everyone's
3:23
laughing. No, no, you're looking for
3:24
certain things and if you eat a
3:25
margarita, you can really taste the
3:26
quality of the cheese, the quality of
3:28
the pata, the quality of the dough. Um,
3:31
and you should lift up um your base. So,
3:33
let's just say say it's a classic or
3:35
actually. And the underneath should look
3:37
like a leopard. So, it should just be
3:39
that nice mix of kind of light light and
3:40
dark spots. That's what you're looking
3:42
for is a leopard base.
3:43
Well, there we go. You learn something
3:44
new every day. But I'm not a margarita
3:47
eater really. My my 16-year-old self was
3:49
a luren lover. So like ham, mushroom,
3:52
olives obviously. And I would say the
3:55
not 16-year-old Paula is a padana lover.
3:58
She always has been.
3:59
Okay. And do you have an idea of who the
4:01
typical Pizza Express diner is? For me,
4:04
it's like first restaurant that maybe
4:06
you go to. You got a little bit of money
4:07
when you're younger and you've graduated
4:09
maybe from Nando and you're going up to
4:10
that next level and that's that's Pizza
4:12
Express.
4:12
Oh, that's so funny. Um, the truth of it
4:15
is it's everyone. Yeah. And and I don't
4:17
want to be like, oh, it's everyone from,
4:19
you know, birth to 100 type thing, but a
4:22
quarter of the UK population of adults
4:24
will eat in a Pizza Express every year.
4:26
When you actually think about that, a
4:28
quarter of all adults, so that's like
4:29
all age groups. Um, yes, we've done the
4:32
thing which is, you know, segment our
4:34
our consumer base, our customer base
4:35
into there's six archetypes, honestly,
4:38
and we've got like pen portrait names
4:39
for each of them. and families
4:41
predominantly are the main stay. But
4:43
what we find is even once kids are like
4:45
there's the empty nesters, they've left
4:47
home or even they're multigenerational
4:48
eating like grandparents and we've got a
4:50
pen portrait name for her. She's called
4:52
Michelle. We're popular with all of the
4:54
groups. Yeah. And then I still get, you
4:56
know, I get two-year-olds who who, you
4:58
know, they they love garlic butter and
5:00
dough balls, just like we were saying.
5:01
And I have 92 year olds who want to
5:02
spend their birthday with us. Um, but
5:04
like you say, there's a lot of like
5:06
first dates at Pizza Express. There's a
5:08
lot of proposals. There's a lot of
5:09
marriages. It goes all the way through,
5:11
honestly.
5:12
Absolutely. You've been in the job since
5:14
2022.
5:14
I have. Not long. Really?
5:16
Not long, relatively speaking. What
5:17
attracted you to to running Pizza
5:19
Express?
5:20
Oh gosh. It's a brand I have always
5:22
loved. So, um, 16-year-old Paula loved
5:25
Pizza Express. She was at boarding
5:27
school. This is the honest truth. And it
5:29
can be quite a lonely place being at
5:30
boarding school. And I remember thinking
5:32
Pizza Express just is the the place that
5:34
I felt really kind of safe and I loved
5:37
it. And there was something about the
5:38
marble tabletop and the way the pizza
5:40
was served and the crystal glass. So she
5:42
obviously had a taste for nicer things
5:44
but also food um that she just really
5:47
enjoyed. And and I always asked my
5:49
parents to take to take me there. And
5:51
all of those memories combined was when
5:53
someone then knocked on my door in 20,
5:55
you know, 2021 and said, "Paula, they'd
5:57
really like you to run Pizza Express."
5:59
There was something really like
6:00
goodness, you know, uh that's a brand
6:03
that I really reckon I can do something
6:04
with. So
6:04
So you got headunted.
6:05
I did. That's got to do something for
6:07
the ego, isn't it?
6:08
I don't I don't look at it like that.
6:11
Um, they got to ask someone, right?
6:13
I guess so, but you could just apply
6:15
for sure. Actually, recently we did this
6:17
really fun thing called who would like
6:18
to be our CEO.
6:20
CEO. I know it's good, right? Yeah. So,
6:22
we've had a lot of applications for
6:23
that. Um, and Fred was the winner. So,
6:25
uh, congratulations Fred. But no,
6:27
someone comes asking, right, based on
6:29
your experience and
6:31
top top level, you're not applying on
6:32
LinkedIn.
6:33
No, you're really not. No,
6:34
no. This is just a completely different
6:35
world.
6:36
Yes. And and I guess it's based on of
6:38
course it has to be on your experiences
6:40
and what you've done.
6:40
And that experience of course was partly
6:42
running KFC.
6:44
Well, that's right.
6:44
In the UK. How does one go from fgging
6:47
fried chicken to flogging pizzas?
6:49
I mean, that's your words, not mine. All
6:50
right. I worked for Yum Brands for 11
6:53
years. I ran KFC UK and Ireland for
6:55
five. Um, it is a phenomenal company and
6:58
a phenomenal brand. And you can see it
6:59
in my career and my my history and and
7:01
back to my, you know, drinks days. I
7:03
started off life at Dagio. I was at
7:05
Glaco Smith Klein with Ribina Holix
7:07
Lucasade. I was at Innocent Smoothies.
7:09
Then I fored into food etc etc and I
7:13
have just loved brands building brands.
7:15
Love food and drink. It's something that
7:17
you can always talk to anyone about like
7:18
literally anyone. And so I had this
7:20
phenomenal run of things including
7:22
running the UK business at KFC and I'd
7:24
done that then for 5 years. So of course
7:26
you can go again for year six, year
7:27
seven etc. But you just I'm the kind of
7:30
person and just in that story actually
7:31
about boarding school you'll see it
7:33
repeating patterns. You know I'd done
7:34
five years at a girls comprehensive
7:36
school and then I swed it up because I
7:38
was bored and it's the kind of same
7:40
thing you know at KFC I'd done that GM
7:43
the general manager role for five years
7:45
and I was like I can go again but at the
7:47
same time someone came knocking with an
7:48
opportunity. So
7:49
that's that story. Yeah, I suppose if
7:51
you got that opportunity that's piqu
7:53
your interest, it's difficult to turn
7:55
that down when you've been doing that
7:56
job for 5 years or so. And leading KFC
7:59
in the UK and Ireland, do you get given
8:01
the secret to the 11 herbs and spices?
8:03
Yeah, I was asked this question a lot
8:04
back in the day. You don't actually. You
8:07
know more than you know more than the
8:08
average person. It is kept under lock
8:10
and key in a briefcase. Uh it's called
8:12
Slend. You get quite close, but no,
8:14
there's only about two or three people
8:15
in the whole of KFC that know the secret
8:17
esplend.
8:18
It's mixed herbs and Tesco, isn't it?
8:20
I'm not even commenting for all the
8:21
reason.
8:21
I'm going to say it. I'm going to say it
8:23
is.
8:24
Peter Express is one of those iconic
8:26
brands. You see it up and down the
8:28
country. When taking on a job leading a
8:30
company like that, does that weigh on
8:32
you the responsibility?
8:34
I guess it does, but I don't overthink
8:35
it, if that makes sense. I am gravitate
8:38
to and I'm drawn to brands and
8:39
businesses that I truly love. So, just
8:42
like I told you about going for a Pizza
8:43
Express when I was 16, and that was just
8:45
true of my whole life. the authentic me
8:47
also, you know, drunk innocent
8:48
smoothies. Um, went for a KFC fillet
8:51
burger. There's just a truism to the
8:53
choice of roles that I want to do. Pizza
8:55
Express has such a relevance for like
8:57
customers for their whole lives. I was
8:59
just like, let's just show this thing in
9:01
its full glory. That's what I felt like
9:02
it wasn't doing its best job of. Let's
9:04
just see what we can do uh to shine a
9:06
light on that. And then you said the
9:08
responsibility and iconic does it weigh
9:10
heavy.
9:11
I don't overthink it. And then I think
9:13
I'm a bit like an immersive actor. Like
9:15
I have to just absolutely immerse myself
9:17
in the brand. Yeah. You have to go back
9:19
through its archives, through its
9:20
heritage, through its history. And
9:21
there's so much richness to that at
9:22
Pizza Express. You can even see I'm like
9:24
wearing all blue today.
9:25
Very on brand.
9:26
Yeah. But I I literally I then just
9:28
literally start to imbue the brand. My
9:29
office at home is painted the Pizza
9:31
Express blue of restaurants, etc., etc.,
9:33
because it helps me really feel it in a
9:36
kind of rich way.
9:37
So almost the Daniel D.
9:38
Look at me like she's incredibly weary.
9:40
No, no, not at all. Not at all. But I
9:42
was going to say Daniel Lewis.
9:43
The Daniel J.
9:44
of CEOs
9:46
slightly. I think you have to be you
9:47
have to be obsessed with your brand and
9:49
business more than anyone else that
9:50
walks this planet.
9:52
Interesting. It's time for some
9:53
quickfire questions now. Paul, are you
9:54
ready?
9:54
Yeah, go for it.
10:00
What was your first job?
10:02
Oh, criy. Actually, a paper round.
10:04
So was mine.
10:05
Okay.
10:05
I didn't like the Fridays because it was
10:07
the local paper day. Bag doubled.
10:09
That's exactly all of that. They were
10:10
quite heavy and there were certain dogs
10:12
in certain houses and it was all a bit
10:14
horror stories.
10:15
This is like PTSD.
10:16
I know. I know.
10:18
Who inspires you?
10:19
Oh gosh, so many people. I love that
10:22
sense that you're the average of the
10:23
five people you surround yourself with
10:25
most. So I hang out with some really
10:27
really talented people at work um on our
10:29
board on other boards I sit on. Uh I go
10:32
to restaurants and I get inspired by the
10:34
leadership that are different people. So
10:36
yesterday I think we said this just
10:37
earlier like I was in Worththing and
10:38
Arendor two cracking managers two
10:41
totally different uh Poppy in Arendor
10:44
who's about 24 um and seeing her
10:46
flourish as running you know a
10:48
multi-million pound business ultimately
10:50
and then Mike in Worththing with 20 plus
10:52
years experience man and boy Pizza
10:54
Express I don't know these leaders are
10:55
really inspiring we've all just got
10:57
different train sets so um yeah I get
10:59
inspired all around me
11:01
if you had to appoint a celebrity to
11:03
your board who would it be and why? Oh,
11:04
I love that. It would have to be someone
11:06
who'd made me laugh, I think.
11:10
Oh gosh, I actually haven't thought who.
11:12
Um,
11:13
so comedian maybe.
11:14
Yeah, a comedian.
11:17
But Steven Fry or somebody, you know,
11:18
with with with brains on them as well.
11:20
Yeah. Yeah, Steve Fry would be a good
11:22
one.
11:22
Yes. Just cuz keeping it fresh and
11:23
mixing up and bringing humor is what you
11:25
need, you know.
11:26
Maybe he's a Pizza Express fan as well.
11:27
We
11:28
Well, there's all sorts of people who
11:29
are Pizza Express fans. Yeah. Mark's
11:31
wearing including et, etc., etc. What's
11:33
the best thing about your job?
11:35
Oh, the best bit about my job,
11:38
you get to make it up, if that makes
11:40
sense. So, um, you've got a mandate,
11:42
you've got a mission about what you have
11:44
to do, but ultimately what you think is
11:46
important is what the organization will
11:47
do. That's the ultimate test of how good
11:50
you are, right? It really is, right? You
11:52
kind of like
11:53
make or break, do or die by your
11:55
actions. And if if you're frustrated
11:57
with something or something's not going
11:58
as you would want it to, you've got no
12:00
one else to look at than other than
12:01
yourself and go, "All right, what have I
12:03
done that's made it that way?" Or, "What
12:05
conditions of success haven't I set?"
12:07
So, I think it's brutally and honestly
12:10
um the most challenge you can set
12:13
yourself. It's like trying to scale
12:14
Everest and you know, you've got to do
12:16
it with 10,000 people or whatever
12:18
and
12:20
ovals and what's in your rucks sack
12:21
including you know, your product. But
12:23
that's a very serious point which is,
12:24
you know, I chose to leave Pizza Express
12:26
because it's one of those few brands. It
12:28
has that um you can name check what
12:30
pizza is you would eat in a Pizza
12:32
Express. And now there are other brands
12:34
that have that for sure,
12:35
but there's many brands that don't have
12:36
that. And if you've got that, you were
12:39
you were making fun that it was like
12:40
money in the bank, but it's at least
12:42
it's something. It's a brand equity to
12:43
build on. And not all jobs and not all
12:45
brands would have that. So very
12:46
deliberate choice. Let's talk about the
12:50
challenges that the hospitality
12:51
industry's faced in the UK. It feels
12:54
like it's been unrelenting for the last
12:56
five or six years now. It must be
12:59
incredibly challenging.
13:01
It has been really difficult, hasn't it?
13:02
And I never wallow. You can probably
13:04
hear it from the kind of person I am. I
13:05
just don't wallow in that at all.
13:07
And of course, I joined Pizza Express
13:09
summer of 22, but of course, the the
13:11
sector had been really, and I'm not
13:12
going to use exaggerated language, but
13:14
somewhat decimated by COVID as well. at
13:16
least the QSR, the quicks service
13:18
restaurant industry got open, but but
13:20
casual dining and, you know, hospitality
13:22
at large was really shuttered a lot by
13:24
that. And then candidly, you know, I I
13:25
studied economics at university, so I
13:27
feel like an economist by training. It
13:29
it's just unbelievable to me that the
13:31
Labor Party, you know, clues on the on
13:33
the has taken such a harsh stance around
13:37
businesses that employ people at large
13:39
and people at scale. and a paper round
13:42
was my first job, but my first job when
13:44
I was then 16 or so was bar work like a
13:46
lot of people's first job,
13:48
restaurants, waitering, waitressing,
13:50
etc. And you know, to be almost taxed
13:53
through the NIC contributions and
13:55
everything else, it's just really hard
13:57
when actually most people's first foray
13:59
into employment is in some kind of
14:02
hospitality venue. I was going to ask
14:03
about the 2024 budget because that
14:05
raised factors across the board for
14:07
No, that was brutal for us candidly as
14:09
it was for everyone in the sector um and
14:11
unexpected and I'm not saying anything
14:12
that anyone else in in the sector
14:14
wouldn't say. Uh it really was tough but
14:16
again it makes you stronger. Tough times
14:18
this is why I just level for it. I don't
14:20
really like wallow in the is it tough.
14:22
Uh great businesses and it's that famous
14:24
quote you know tough businesses get
14:26
stronger or you know tough times make
14:27
people we will get stronger and we have
14:30
got stronger. Um, and you see that play
14:32
out in the
14:33
What have you had to do to mitigate
14:34
those increases in taxes?
14:37
You really try and focus about what the
14:38
customer values. So for me, it starts
14:41
with food and taste. And I'm just that
14:43
kind of leader. I will never sacrifice
14:45
on the quality of the food. It's just
14:46
not in my DNA. So you don't see us do
14:48
shrinkflation or anything like that. But
14:51
you will have seen and it's it's widely
14:52
reported that prices have to rise to
14:54
cover the cost inputs that one has.
14:55
Whether that's the food, whether that's
14:57
the people, whether it's the rent, the
14:58
rates, all all of those things. We just
15:01
try and candidly just try and make sure
15:02
that we're charging a fair price for the
15:04
thing that you're getting and that
15:05
customer still feels that's value for
15:07
money and we track our value for money
15:09
scores maniacally. But those are the
15:11
kind of things you are trying to take
15:13
out cost where it doesn't do anything
15:15
you know be more efficient and put put
15:17
the things that the customer values in
15:19
front of them.
15:19
There's so much competition these days
15:21
not just chains as big as Peter Express
15:23
but independent places as well.
15:25
That's right.
15:25
But then the cost of living is going up.
15:28
People are going out for dinner less.
15:30
It's costing more to go out for dinner.
15:32
So, people are making those choices
15:34
really specifically about where to go.
15:37
Is it how do you attract somebody to to
15:39
how do you persuade a family or a couple
15:42
to choose Pizza Express instead of to
15:44
going somewhere else when everybody's
15:46
costs are going up and and they're going
15:48
to be footed with a with a huge bill
15:49
afterwards?
15:50
It's that well, it's not necessarily a
15:51
huge bill, candidly. like there's a
15:53
value equation of what is it worth to
15:54
you, you know, and I really we obsess
15:57
about what is the overall bill and and
15:59
we, you know, we we monitor that
16:01
incredibly actually when you see grocery
16:03
prices going up as well and you know
16:05
that you're going to have to cook that
16:06
meal or whatever at home and what what
16:08
is it reasonable to pay for for someone
16:09
to do that and serve you and delight you
16:12
and have a lovely maybe moment with a a
16:14
family, a friend, etc., etc. Uh we think
16:17
we're priced really competitively for
16:18
that and you see that off us able to
16:20
offer um really great offers,
16:22
promotions, rewards. We have the
16:25
industryleading loyalty app. So the
16:27
Pizza Express Club, we have nearly 4
16:29
million people. When you actually think
16:30
about that, that's huge and it's because
16:33
we started so long ago. So we have the
16:34
Pizza Express Club and within that we're
16:36
able to offer people offers and then
16:38
make that that bill at the end um not as
16:42
shocking as you may think. If that makes
16:43
sense. You said that prices have had to
16:45
go up.
16:45
They have. Yeah.
16:46
Are you expecting prices to continue to
16:48
rise?
16:49
What I've learned on these things is to
16:51
stay with consumer expectation and like
16:53
not go crazy. But if you hold it back
16:55
too far, then your input costs are just
16:57
it's just, you know, coming up and and
16:59
you've got nowhere to go. So yes, they
17:01
have to go up, but I hope just a little
17:03
bit. Again, we're quite good at managing
17:04
our inflationary cost input side of it.
17:07
But yes, let's things haven't been as
17:09
bad as they were in 20, you know, 2022
17:12
to 23, etc.
17:14
I'm sure.
17:15
I suppose all eyes at the moment are on
17:17
the budget. So, this is coming out just
17:18
a few days before the budget.
17:20
Indeed.
17:21
Do you have a wish list? I appreciate,
17:22
you know, by this time people are
17:24
watching this and listening to this,
17:25
your homework is going to be marked
17:26
pretty damn quickly. But do you have a a
17:28
wish list that you'd like Rachel Reeves
17:30
to focus on?
17:31
For all the right reasons, I'm not going
17:32
to comment too much. I just hope that,
17:34
you know, all the council that very
17:35
great organizations like the British
17:37
Retail Consortium, like UK Hospitality
17:39
have lent in to say, look, enough's
17:41
enough when it comes to sectors that
17:43
employ a lot of people. I really hope
17:45
she's listened to that
17:45
because a lot of people have said that
17:46
tax rises are inevitable. I feel that
17:50
people guests on the show over the last
17:51
year have said that the tax rises in the
17:54
2024 budget has just massively hit them.
17:56
You just said they battered Pizza
17:58
Express. Is there a part of you that's
18:01
worried that there's going to be even
18:02
more tax rises for businesses?
18:04
Yes. I don't think I said battered Pizza
18:05
Express, but they've been tough. Look, I
18:08
think she may well do tough things
18:10
again. Yeah, we all then are in the same
18:12
boat, though. We all have to roll with
18:13
it. I'm just hoping here, this is like
18:15
having a crystal ball, isn't it? We're
18:16
sitting here recording this before that
18:18
she takes heed to some of that. Yeah.
18:20
Let's see.
18:20
Yeah. Okay. Very answered there. The PR
18:24
in the uh in the corner is sweating, I
18:26
think. Let's talk about pay. Pizza
18:29
Express was in the news for all the
18:30
wrong reasons in the last few days as
18:32
we're recording. Getting fined by the
18:34
government uh for not paying some staff
18:37
the minimum wage.
18:39
It's rather unacceptable, isn't it?
18:41
So this was years ago just to put it
18:42
into perspective. Like absolutely years
18:44
ago um and actually before my time too,
18:47
not to just um
18:48
of course
18:49
and I think there was hundreds of
18:51
businesses literally.
18:52
Yes. Very well known. It's not just
18:54
Peter exc
18:57
the gas was one of them. Holland and
18:58
Barrett there names.
19:00
Yes. For real technicalities around
19:04
nuances to do with whether it's uniform
19:06
or changing times or any of these
19:07
things. Um it's really not the place to
19:09
go into like detail that was sorted the
19:12
moment they became apparent and all
19:13
those individuals were made good. So I
19:16
think this is just a good lesson. If I
19:17
just hover up to 50,000 foot for
19:19
everyone. It's a good lesson in the
19:21
government really needs to make sure
19:22
that it's its legislative its
19:24
legislation at its, you know, in the
19:26
micro is super clear. Yeah. Because
19:29
there's no way hundreds of businesses
19:31
are trying to do the wrong thing. We're
19:32
absolutely not. We're like completely
19:34
wedded to doing the right thing.
19:35
Spotlight.
19:36
Oh, 100%. When you're the category lead,
19:38
you're always in the spotlight. So, we,
19:39
you know, we were speaking about that
19:40
almost half an hour ago.
19:42
But genuinely, good reputable businesses
19:44
are always trying to do the right thing.
19:45
It's just not in our interest to do
19:46
anything but. So actually that everyone
19:48
fell foul of these kind of minutia it
19:50
just shows you it wasn't clear. We all
19:52
thought we were doing the right thing
19:53
and then a moment it became apparent
19:54
we're not doing the right thing. Right.
19:55
Well we make it good. So
19:57
I've got genuinely nothing more to say
19:59
on it than that's kind of what happens.
20:01
But that's why the team really try and
20:03
get so close to the government all these
20:05
bodies to try and make sure that on new
20:07
legislation let's take new one at the
20:09
moment you know HFSS highfat salt sugar
20:12
is everyone's super clear because the
20:14
government isn't making it as clear as
20:16
they could sometimes and none of us are
20:17
trying to fall foul of anything.
20:19
Yes. You're not trying to hide anything
20:20
I suppos
20:22
your your argument. Yeah. You're too
20:23
you're too in the spotlight to try and
20:25
put something under the rug and don't
20:27
pay these guys%. Okay. Interesting. I
20:30
wanted to touch on this point as well.
20:32
Everybody knows Pizza Express. We've
20:33
talked about this during the interview.
20:35
Sometimes a company, any company will be
20:38
in the news for negative reasons, but
20:40
nothing to do with them. It's not their
20:42
fault. They've not done anything bad.
20:44
They're just in the news. I mentioned
20:46
this because of Prince Andrew and what
20:49
happened in 2019. Pizza Express woking
20:52
absolutely everywhere getting slated.
20:55
Nothing to do with Pizza Express. You
20:57
haven't done anything wrong. I'm not
20:58
trying to say that that's the case. My
21:00
question is this. How do you, and you
21:03
weren't there at the time, I appreciate
21:04
that as well. How do you attempt to
21:08
repair a company's reputation when
21:11
they've been hit by a PR storm that's
21:13
absolutely not of their making at all?
21:15
Yeah, I do love that you've dug up every
21:18
Pizza Express story.
21:20
Let me go again to 50,000 foot. You
21:22
can't legislate or kind of mandate for
21:25
anything that anyone is going to say.
21:26
Yeah. You know it is freedom of speech
21:29
and people can say anything on on any
21:31
brand.
21:32
So it is best just to rise above it
21:34
candidly and then just go this stuff
21:36
happens. It's like weather. Yeah. Like
21:38
there's storms and there's you know
21:39
there's sunshine periods and there's
21:41
stormy periods and just rise above it.
21:42
We are Pizza Express. We have been here
21:45
since 1965. I hope we will be here in
21:48
2065. And sometimes people say things,
21:50
you know, and you just have to roll with
21:51
it. So
21:53
that is what it is really.
21:55
Yeah. Yeah.
21:56
It's, you know, sometimes companies are
21:58
in the in the news because they've done
21:59
something wrong and and they're being
22:00
held to account. It must be difficult. I
22:03
couldn't imagine being in any business
22:05
that's in the news and they've got
22:06
nothing to do with it. It must be
22:09
such a stressful period and you think,
22:10
"Oh no, what you know, how are we going
22:12
to get out of this
22:12
experience? It's it's not actually after
22:14
a while just because these things
22:16
happen. I think you have to expect that
22:18
in any, you know, 365 days a year
22:21
decades things happen." Yeah,
22:23
I'd panic. I think that's probably why
22:24
I'm not running a business.
22:25
responsibility of it. Yeah. I think when
22:26
you lead um industryleading brands um
22:29
and you know I've run you know many
22:31
you're in the pop culture, you're in the
22:33
public vernacular. You're top of mind of
22:34
what people say.
22:36
I'll be sitting on a train and somebody
22:37
will say something about Pizza Express
22:38
and I take my headphones off because I'm
22:39
like oh what are they saying? You know.
22:41
Yes.
22:41
So it's just you know we're a household
22:44
name so these things happen.
22:45
These things happen. Okay. Final
22:47
question Paul. I like to end the
22:49
interview on on this. What does it take
22:51
in your opinion to be a good CEO?
22:55
Well, you have to love what you do. I
22:56
mean, it absolutely underpins and starts
22:59
with that. Um, and I think you have to
23:01
love you have to be curious. That's the
23:03
that's the number one quality I would
23:05
say of a great CEO is just always
23:07
curious. And that's curious for what
23:09
your customers want, what they're
23:10
telling you, what people in your
23:12
business are up to. Are you interested
23:14
in in them as humans? Are you interested
23:17
in how something ticks? What makes it
23:19
work? What makes it doesn't work? All of
23:21
that. Like if you're innately curious
23:23
and you like fixing things and putting
23:25
things together and growing things, but
23:28
I think that stems from curiosity,
23:29
you'll be a great CEO.
23:30
Brilliant. Paula, thank you very much
23:32
for coming on board.
23:33
You're welcome.
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