Up next in 10
Revolut’s customer service chatbot has charged customers a £55 break fee to cancel premium memberships after the neo-bank ditched major subscription perks. Senior City Reporter, Sam Norman has the scoop.
Meanwhile, Dairy of a CEO presenter, Steven Bartlett looks set to overtake Joe Rogan's audience on YouTube - we speak to Oliver Yonchev, co-founder of Bartlett's production company, Flightstory, about how the former dragon made it, and about Yonchev's new AI venture, Potentially.
Plus: we take you inside the new 24/7 cafe on Old Street for tech bros who like to work seven days a week.
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0:00
Hello and welcome back to Business As Usual, brought to you by Halkin, with me, Martin Kimber
0:05
And me, Matt Kenyon. Coming up on the podcast today, Revolut's chatbot charges customers to cancel premium memberships after shedding major subscription perks
0:15
The diary of a CEO looks set to overtake Joe Rogan's podcast audience on YouTube
0:20
We'll hear from the man who was there with Stephen Bartlett from the very beginning. Plus, one of our journalists takes us inside a cafe built for London's most ambitious and driven entrepreneurs
0:31
Well, we have got a packed programme today. Obviously, we will be taking you inside that London 24-7 Tech Bro Cafe
0:39
We'll also be bringing you, as we mentioned, an interview with Stephen Bartlett's former co-founder
0:44
We'll also ask if it's ever OK for a championship football club to sell the naming rights to its stadium stands on LinkedIn
0:53
I'm sure we'll have thoughts on that. But first, why don't we get inside? Before all this pudding
0:59
why don't we get inside the meat and potatoes of Revolut? Nick Stronsky's ever-scaling
1:05
potentially $1 trillion mega unicorn has gotten into a small amount of hot water this week
1:11
after customers lost key subscription perks. And there's also been a bit of a question around one
1:18
of its chatbots. Our fintech supremo luckily joins us here. That's Sam Norman
1:23
our senior history reporter. Sam, what's been going on here? Yes, I mean
1:28
it's a very interesting one, this case. I think customers, anytime they get any changes
1:32
of perks to their subscription plans, you're going to see that instant backlash. But what's interesting
1:36
with what happened here was there's been two big changes to one of our
1:40
Evolute subscription plans and that's they swapped one of their AI services
1:44
Perplexity, for ChatGPT. They gave them a warning on that at the start of August
1:47
for changes coming through in September, and another one where they reduced access
1:51
to WeWork offices. Now, there was no warning on this, and that's caused a lot of fracas, to say the least
1:58
Now, Revolut have argued there's different Cs and Cs. If you're going by their headline Cs and Cs
2:02
they say they give 30-day warnings, but there's different policies they're governed by
2:06
and also there's a WeWork element to this as well. But I think the most interesting part..
2:09
I love that we can still have business stories now with the WeWork element. There's always a WeWork element
2:14
There's always a factor. The interesting part here is, some conversations I've been having this morning
2:17
was some people have gone now to get a downgrade on their subscription plan
2:22
because they don't want to be paying for something that the perks are not there for potentially to suit them
2:26
And Revolut's charging them to downgrade. Now, when they've gone to their chatbot
2:31
It's an early break fee. An early break fee. And I think some of these have been done
2:35
depending on how long the account's been active. But these customers now being faced with this £55 break fee
2:40
to go back to the standard plan, basically, because the perks are not there that they want
2:44
now this has all come through their chatbot so when i've gone in discussions with revolute about
2:48
this this is apparently a mistake and they're doing this as a goodwill uh they're waiving the
2:52
fee now i think this raises a lot of questions i mean it's interesting because i think we live in
2:58
this society where we've all got some sort of frustration with having to do everything through a chatbot this is like one of the first times i've seen where the companies actually in their
3:05
statement have come out and said we actually apologize that this option was temporarily unavailable to some users does the chatbot have a name the chatbot does have a name so the chatbot's
3:14
name is Rita. That is an acronym for Revolut's Intelligence Troubleshooting Assistant. It's also my mum's name
3:20
Wow. That's actually what... Who sadly does not work for Revolut. I'm sure that Nick Stronsky
3:27
had your mother in mind. I'm sure. But Rita brackets Revolut's Not Kimber
3:33
has been causing a bit of trouble. I mean, if they're charging people..
3:37
It's a very... People are going to be upset if you're wanting to downgrade because
3:41
you're not getting the perk you want and then you're being told to pay when you weren't given the warning
3:45
Sam, so is everyone going to get their money back? Well, now I guess the route is you can opt out
3:49
of talking to the chatbot and get an actual Revolut staff member, I assume, who will take you through the process
3:54
They said this is available. To create Revolut, they have confirmed they will waive the break-off fee
3:58
considering all the backlash they've got to this. And I assume now they've said it was temporary
4:03
and unavailable from the chatbot. So I imagine they've adjusted the code. I would love it if you could put in a press request
4:08
with them and ask what percentage of users chose to speak to the human versus the chatbot
4:12
And I think at that point, a lot of AI company stocks will plummet because, yeah, we still prefer speaking to human beings
4:19
Speaking of human beings, those living in Britain aren't that much better off, according to the latest GDP figures
4:26
How about that for a segue? GDP figures out on Thursday. How's Rita feeling
4:31
Terrible. Cora's devastated. But potentially tough times ahead for the Chancellor towards the end of the year
4:37
Yeah, I mean, it's growth slowing at the end of the day. We had 0.6% in the first quarter
4:42
That's down to 0.4% in the second quarter. I mean, at the end of the day, I don't think it's too dreary on paper, considering we had the Iran war, the pretty much energy crisis
4:52
We had oil prices shooting up. So it's held up considerably well, considering these effects
4:58
But also, and I think we've discussed this a lot on this podcast, a lot of these effects are going to come through over time
5:03
Inflation takes a few months to come through. And then that resets how we look at interest rates
5:08
And then that resets how we look at GDP. So I think we're going to see these months trickle through
5:12
And at the end of the day, the Strait of Hormuz is still not open. It's not open. And also, do you think the economy has been artificially stimulated by factors such as
5:20
the heat wave, the World Cup? These are not once every year events, nor are they going to be events that are still
5:26
happening in October. Without a doubt. And we see this in retail spending data There been a boost in just day spending I think Barclays had some data out earlier this week where the world cup and the heat wave are literally named as factors to this as you said that not everyday things we can bank on and when these filters
5:41
when these things start to filter through properly and again these higher energy prices these
5:46
inflationary pressures and how the economy starts to adjust to that it's no surprise that the slow
5:50
down is going to come and i think when people are getting hit by this slow down they won't maybe
5:54
have those immediate factors to point to because they'll be like oh well this was months ago this was a year ago but it's it's just how long it takes to filter through one more thing to talk
6:02
to you about sam which championship football club is selling the naming rights to its stadium stands
6:07
on linkedin it has to it has to be our good friends at queens park rangers i i think this is
6:14
what a fascinating you know what i'm gonna come out and say on linkedin i'm gonna come out and say
6:19
i think this is fantastic i think it's great so it's it's been uh posted as as a as one of those
6:27
LinkedIn posts where one sentence is every paragraph. And it's like, this isn't a brand partnership
6:33
This is a reset. I'd like to think like, when you're screwing your LinkedIn feed
6:36
it's just pretty AI sloppy now. See, I look like that. I'm tuned in
6:41
It catches your eye. I think it's a great market for it. And to be honest, I don't know you guys
6:46
a lot of my screen time is spent on LinkedIn. So if I'm starting to- It's the modern Facebook, I think
6:50
I don't mind shopping for a stadium on there. A stand? You could have the stand
6:53
A little one. Just a little one. I couldn't afford the full thing, but you know. Just enough for a little box
6:57
in a buffet you go to watch tpr that'd do me so is that a case of it's just been put out to linkedin
7:03
with a post that says something along the lines of are you a successful liquid person within our
7:10
within our network who can put some of your liquidity into our well exactly i think about
7:14
it at the end of the day this is not your average facebook post like they are there are investors on
7:19
linkedin people get jobs through linkedin i think we do forget like for all the slot that is on there
7:23
it is a workplace but it's filled with people getting jobs people exchanging numbers
7:28
like actual business contacts Can I query I think you said AI slop earlier
7:31
and I agree with only half of that because I think there is a lot of slop on LinkedIn but I actually think
7:36
it's probably one of the less AI Really? I think people are just conditioned
7:39
into writing on a certain way on LinkedIn because it's one of those platforms which there is an established
7:44
so called professional style of writing on LinkedIn and people are just
7:48
constantly copying each other and it's in a way that I'm sure that AI is copying that style
7:52
I'm delighted to announce that I have sent another email. I like to do a thrill to announce
7:56
That's my favourite. But also, I think, you know, people love the emoji structure as well
8:02
like line emoji, line emoji. I was quite a fiend for that
8:06
when I was recapping my stories for the week. I'm glad you can be so positive. One final question
8:10
on this final topic. Do you think this could be the start of more things to come
8:14
where we see this more as an M&A platform? An M&A platform
8:19
Wouldn't that be fun? But I mean, it takes a bit of the excitement away
8:23
when every journalist, when we can all just see it go on LinkedIn. What's the point in you or any of us at that point
8:29
That's a great note to leave. What is the point in any of us just download LinkedIn? Sam, what's the point in you
8:34
But also, thank you so much for joining us. I do think that every time I go on LinkedIn, what is the point in me
8:37
All right. Thank you very much, Sam. That's very kind of you to come in
8:42
Coming up after the break, we take a peek at the new 24-7 remote working cafe
8:47
for the tech bros. But first, Stephen Bartlett's diary of a CEO
8:51
looks set to overtake Joe Rogan's YouTube audience. We'll speak to the man who was there with Bartlett
8:56
from the very beginning, right after this. Your office says a lot about your business
9:01
Halkin's serviced offices sit in London's best locations, designed to a standard you'd expect from a five-star hotel
9:09
with service that goes the extra mile. Discover Halkin. Prime addresses, exceptional workspace design
9:16
award-winning service. Now, if reports are to be believed, Stephen Bartlett's Diary of a CEO podcast is set to overtake Joe Rogan's YouTube show
9:24
Bartlett, who was expelled from school and dropped out of university after just one lecture, he says
9:31
looks likely to overtake Rogan's audience, having taken just half the time to build his own
9:37
Oliver Yonchev was co-founder of Stephen Bartlett's production company Flight Story and exited the business in 2024
9:43
and is now co-founder of a new AI business. potentially something we'll be definitely coming on to a bit later
9:50
But first, Oliver, thank you very much for joining us. Just a word on that unbelievable success story that Diary Over CEO has become
9:57
and sort of how you guys got there. It's really interesting to hear you say
10:02
Stephen's about to overtake and become the number one podcast in the world
10:07
We had a conversation. It was based on trajectory. It was almost a certainty that that was going to happen
10:15
about a year and a half ago. Wow. Looking at the data, the velocity
10:21
to ask the big lofty question of how has Stephen managed to build a media empire
10:27
it's a loaded question. I'll start by simply saying Stephen gets a lot of credit for his eloquence
10:37
the way he delivers programming, all the things that you see that the end product
10:43
At the core, it's someone that is obsessed with self-development and has the most insane work ethic and really, really deeply cares about building high-performing cultures and teams
10:58
That's the central thesis. And any success you see today is built upon that thesis So I could go into tactics I could talk about my observations Stephen one of my best friends So I am biased as hell I will champion him from the hills But it interesting
11:21
that 18 months ago, it was obvious that he was on this track. What's it like working with your
11:26
best friend? And how do you avoid kind of falling out? Because quite, you know, a lot of the greatest
11:30
bands of all time split up because you know they stopped being friends or there was a bit of a
11:35
fallout or whatever so what's it like working with someone who's that driven uh and who you're also
11:40
actually very sort of familiar with and and and like very much yeah look i think it's a dream
11:48
working with people that you like respect learn from i've been privileged to work with some great
11:53
people a lot of friends a lot of my friendships have been born out of work a shared passion for
11:58
what we were doing. I don't see an issue with it. I will say that where problems can arise
12:05
is where you have very similar personality traits, you know, high conviction
12:12
disagreements. But I actually think that's what keeps you honest. It's not all about
12:16
alignment. It's not all about agreement. I think to build anything great and meaningful
12:23
you have to have tension and healthy tension. So I'm an advocate of working with your
12:28
your friends. I don't necessarily think it's for everybody, but for me, I've been very blessed
12:32
We recently had a pastor startup run by a man and wife, which was quite interesting
12:40
That may be more challenging, by the way. So that brings us on to your new venture, which is potentially
12:47
A, you talk about there that a startup requires a certain type of personality
12:51
yes uh some of those personalities then come up against some issues once the startup becomes more
12:58
established you look at sort of james watt had this problem at brew dog he was an excellent
13:02
startup ceo but then came into some issues further on down the road and are you sort of chasing that
13:08
thrill of of a new startup and in a relatively new area of of business such as ai yeah i i think
13:16
there's two parts of that that are relevant one there are certain characters and there's certain
13:23
traits that are helpful and serve you at early stage startup building one of them is delusional
13:30
optimism you have to be somewhat delusional to take on these really audacious missions
13:36
for potentially we're competing with big tech a UK startup going out there trying to compete
13:44
with the smartest people in the world that have endless checks written for them
13:51
And we have the audacity to say we can compete in that field. So there is a little bit of that delusional optimism you have to have
13:59
Alongside that, you have to be extremely self-aware. You need to know your limitations. And I am under no illusion that our future success is predicated on
14:07
us bringing together a world-class team of people. And that's experienced practitioners in their many domains, but also those great early stage practitioners that are capable, can wear many hats and have that the energy and tenacity that's required in early stage building
14:29
Just finally, there's been a little bit of friction around the new prime minister's approach to AI
14:35
Yep. Certain departments becoming other departments. The AI minister now attending cabinet
14:42
What do you make of this government's approach to AI? I think it's too early to tell
14:48
Obviously, it was controversial of dissolving the science department at a time where we're going through technological revolution
14:59
But they are often labels. I think we have to see how the current government builds on the previous mandate
15:07
the sovereign ai fund wonderful initiative the moves that have been made recently around making
15:13
it easier and more streamlined to bring talent into the uk to build technology companies
15:18
there are things that the government absolutely can do for the uk to have any competitive
15:25
advantage on the world stage it needs to look at energy policy energy policy is a
15:30
the red herring in the room. It's the foundation of everything, of all industry. So I think that
15:37
needs serious consideration. But there are some good things and some signals and
15:41
an AI minister having a seat at the cabinet and a table, I think is extremely encouraging. So I
15:47
think that's a positive step. And finally, there is something a little funny going on in a certain
15:52
patch of central North-ish London. So we've seen King's Cross gradually fill up with a number of
15:58
European outposts of major American AI companies. But now, just down the road from there in Old Street
16:06
there is a new venue which is opening up for ambitious startup founders
16:10
who are looking to London Max, which has probably become the verb of the business year
16:17
Our deputy opinion editor, Anna Maloney, makes her debut on the podcast
16:21
because Anna, in a very intrepid way, has gone to this cafe different times of day
16:26
You don't have to. So we don't have to. And you can give us your unfiltered thoughts
16:32
Firstly, Anna, welcome. Thank you so much. So thrilled to make my debut
16:36
It's an honour to have you. Tell us about this cafe this Corgi Cafe it called Right So Corgi Cafe I mean a good thing to first say is that this is not the main business of Corgi So Corgi is a San Francisco AI insurance
16:49
startup. They launched in 2024 and are already worth 4 billion. So it's quite, you know, it's a
16:56
company that has pursued aggressive growth. And they just happen to also have some 24-7 cafes
17:02
And does that feel like a marketing exercise on the part of a company which is broadly
17:06
an intro tech. So it feels like a marketing exercise and also partially ideological
17:12
because they kind of are very pro hustle culture. The founder found it very frustrating that San
17:20
Francisco closed so early and nowhere was open overnight to be grinding away. And so he wanted
17:26
to give an answer. But it's quite interesting because in San Francisco as well, you know
17:30
they run free bus routes around Silicon Valley. So there's kind of this greater almost like
17:35
philanthropy for the startup community because the more ai startups know they exist the more they
17:41
need to buy the insurance right well presumably the business model well that is that has been
17:45
speculated that you know they want all these kind of early startup founders in their cafe who will
17:51
eventually need insurance so that's one aspect insurance and important to point out here there
17:56
are no dogs in in this cafe so there are no dogs which i think is a point of contention for many
18:01
people i saw lots of people walking past kind of intrigued coming in there being no dogs leave
18:08
leaving disappointed but i actually did see one corgi while i was there on tuesday i don't know
18:13
if it was affiliated but okay so that could have been unofficial so take us inside so so you you
18:19
approached the threshold of this cafe what kind of people do you meet and what kind of things do
18:23
they say and do so i approached the threshold and i was quite nervous i have to say um i think this
18:28
you know, this was not my scene. Were there many other women? There were a couple of women
18:33
Was it quite alpha male, kind of? I don't know if alpha male's the word
18:38
Sigma male. They were men. I would say they were 95% men
18:43
I would say 50% in baseball caps. This is the kind of demographic
18:48
A couple stray women. Everyone laptops. I also think I didn't see many people purchasing things
18:56
I think the cafe part is quite secondary. I think they're quite happy for you to go in and just settle in and work
19:04
which is obviously very unusual for London cafes who are increasingly becoming hostile towards laptops and remote workers
19:10
It's difficult for freelancers to find places where you can go and do little tasks
19:14
without feeling like you have to buy two coffees an hour. Exactly. I do commend it
19:18
And I imagine it's not going to make much money. It's going to be very expensive to run open 24-7
19:24
um but the vibe i mean it's not a cozy cafe it's not a writer's cafe it's kind of you know i say
19:34
it's shabby chic but a bit more on the shabby side there's lots of neon orange paint um they
19:40
have lots of paintings of kind of classical paintings but adapted with all the people
19:46
replaced by corgis that sounds horrendous i'm interested in the neon orange paint because
19:52
there was always this story about the Office of the Sun newspaper
19:56
how the walls would be painted red in an effort to get people more energised
20:00
and more dynamic. Do you think that there is almost an atmosphere of it being slightly hostile
20:06
to the customer to spurn on innovation? Yes, I do. I think the atmosphere is intentionally kind of stark
20:14
It feels a bit sterile. It's fluorescent cool lighting, which, you know
20:20
I know that that actually is you know meant to do focus because we all have horrible lighting in our office and I would personally love to like be bathed in warm yeah Christmassy light yeah but that's actually not good for productivity um so yeah it's also very cramped lots of people on shared tables um yeah well uh I'm certainly off to write the script for next week's podcasts uh at this thing and to visit would you I mean just just finally would you recommend people do visit what kind of people do you think are the ideal people
20:50
And I suppose how seriously are they expecting people to take their time at Corgi Cafe
20:57
They are expecting people to take it very seriously. So I think also a good bit of context is just for the founders of Corgi
21:04
They have an extremely intensive work culture. The founder says he sleeps three hours a night
21:11
He sleeps on a mattress in the office. He works seven days a week. All Corgi employees are expected to work seven days a week
21:17
and this is the kind of work culture that he thinks more people need to be following
21:23
Interestingly, he's decided to open in London before New York. He thinks London is more promising than New York
21:31
He thinks we have great AI talent but he has said he thinks we have too many pubs
21:35
and that is a problem. Well, that is not the editorial line that we're taking here
21:41
Well, Anna, thank you so much for joining us. What a fascinating place. We'll have you back very soon
21:45
Thank you so much for having me. Well, that's just about all we have time for today. Thank you very much for listening to or watching Business As Usual brought to you by Halkin
21:52
Please do not forget to subscribe to our various weekly and daily newsletters. And of course, please do not forget to download our free app
22:00
It's got everything those expensive news apps have except ours is free. We'll be back in your podcast feeds next week on Tuesday at 6am. But until then, have a lovely weekend and bye bye
22:11
Goodbye. Thank you
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