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The Trolls of Wall Street with Author Nathaniel Popper | Bullish Studio Podcast
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Aug 1, 2024
What happens when online communities wield more power than Wall Street titans? In an all new episode of the Bullish Studio Podcast, Bullish Studio CEO Brian Hanly sits down with journalist Nathan Popper to explore how digital disruptors are shaking up the financial markets like never before – straight from the guy who's been on the front lines of finance and tech. In his latest book – "Trolls of Wall Street” – Nathan explores the wild world of online retail investing communities and their impact on the financial markets — becoming powerful forces that can move markets and shape financial landscapes in ways we've never seen before. In this episode, Nathan gives us a behind the scenes look into the making of his latest book – revealing the dynamics of these online communities, their influence on Wall Street, the implications for investors, regulators & both traditional financial and political institutions alike, and what he sees as the future of finance in the digital age. TIMESTAMPS: 00:00 - Intro 01:37 - Nathan's background and "The Trolls of Wall Street" origin story 03:40 - Nathan explains what exactly a Troll of Wall Street™️ is 07:10 - The rise of retail investors 09:45 - Educating ourselves on investing, the markets, and risk 11:33 - Brian explains his investing journey to Nathan 15:00 - Behind the scenes of Wall Street Bets 15:54 - How Donald Trump and WSB became intertwined 18:36 - The Winklevoss twins 19:45 - The politicization of crypto 22:04 - Representation of online retail investing communities
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young people who felt alienated from the financial crisis there was a small group of them initially who kind of found an
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outlet in the markets you know they they were skeptical of of Wall Street and they were skeptical of the financial
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system but they also I think realized that when you get in there and get your
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hands dirty in the stock markets and in the options markets you know you can
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kind of learn something about the system that you distrust
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welcome back to the bullish Studio podcast I'm your host Brian Hanley joining us today is Nathan popper an
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acclaimed journalist at the information previously at the New York Times an author known for his insightful and
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thought-provoking work on the intersection of finance and Technology Nathan's previous book digital gold was
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a deep dive into the world of Bitcoin and cryptocurrency earning widespread praise for its in-depth reporting and
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engaging storytelling now he's back with a brand new book titled trolls of Wall Street in
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trolls of Wall Street Nathan explores the fascinating and often turbulent world of online communities and their
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impact on the financial markets we're thrilled to have Nathan with us today to talk about his latest work the stories
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behind it and what he sees as the future of Finance in the digital age please ensure that you're subscribed to our
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Channel and please please let us know what you think about this interview in the comments without further Ado please
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welcome Nathan poer to the show Nathaniel popper thank you very much for taking the time to join us today on the
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bullish Studio podcast uh it's been a it's a pleasure having you here uh to kick off I think it'd be helpful to just
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um explain to our audience a little bit about who you are what you've done and um yeah what your latest uh Endeavor is
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sure well um I been a journalist for 20 years and um much of that I spent at the
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New York Times where I covered Wall Street and technology and that job
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brought me into the orbit of Bitcoin relatively early on 2013 I started
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covering it and as a result of that I wrote a book called digital gold which
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is about the origin story of Bitcoin and crypto and since then i' I've been
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writing for the the New York Times s i I moved out to the Bay Area to cover
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technology a little bit more and that led to this newest book which is called
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the trolls of Wall Street and I uh I got
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going on this around the time of the GameStop the first GameStop surge back
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in 2021 and I have been working on it since then and it it it tells a story that
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tells the GameStop story but it also tells a much broader story of you know
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how essentially we got this new generation of young particularly young
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men who are so obsessed with money and trading and finance and just this whole online World
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online community that is sort of unlike anything that existed before and so the
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trolls of Wall Street my new book tells the story of that how we got from essentially Occupy Wall Street to Wall
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Street totally that's great and I think you know speaking of Occupy Wall Street you know 2008 until you know relatively
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present day obviously there was a bit of a quiet period there but then I'd love to you know hear a little bit about you
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know what what is a troll of Wall Street are they the are they the Occupy Wall Street folks or are they a different
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group of people what have you what have you seen that's a great question and they are to some degree the sort of um
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uh shifting a shifting shifted version of Occupy Wall Street in some sense you
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know Occupy Wall Street was this movement that came about after the 2008 crisis that represented the the extreme
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dissatisfaction distrust with the financial industry and the way it had
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you know created this crisis that had such an impact on so many
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Americans and you know coming out of that crisis there was just it led to this sort of alienation and distrust of
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the traditional sources of authority in America you know the the world of Wall Street and you know Wall Street bets
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began in this moment where young people were were totally had removed themselves
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from the markets you know the there was this there were a lot of Articles back in the years after the financial crisis
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that talked about the the sort of death of retail trading the idea that that was something of the past and what's so
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interesting is the way that people young young people who felt alienated from the financial crisis there was a small group
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of them initially who kind of found an outlet in the markets you know they they
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were skeptical of of Wall Street and they were skeptical of the financial system but they also I think realized
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that when you get in there and get your hands dirty in the stock markets and in
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the options markets you know you can kind of learn something about the system
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that you distrust and there's something better about understanding the the system you distrust than knowing nothing
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about it you know it's kind of like keep your friends close and your enemies closer there was a there was an element
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of that where people wanted to understand this system people had realized how important the markets were
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to the economy and the functioning of our society and you know people wanted to understand that and so you know it
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began with this small small community of guys just I I tell the story of Jamie
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razinski who created Wall Street bets and you know that that was a big part of
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his motivation um and and it sort of Grew From there with all of these layers
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added on to it you know it obviously one of the big layers that got added on was the the um invention of the creation of
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the Robin Hood app which sort of changed the way that people engaged with trading it made it more use user friendly made
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it more approachable and it sort of Grew From there till you know that it started
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in 2012 and it grew till you know covid began in 2020 and suddenly this became
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this like National Pastime and so it was this slow Evolution to where we are
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today where it's just something that millions of people take almost as take for granted as a part of something that
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young people do that's so different than where where we began back in 2012 yeah
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100% And and a stat that we you know mention a lot here at bullish studio is that since 2008 surprisingly based on
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you know studies that are published by finra and others financial literacy in this country has not made a meaningful
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shift up or down I mean if anything it's gone down slightly but then retail Equity ownership like ownership of
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stocks has gone up quite a bit especially in the last couple years so there's this really interesting argument
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while yes there was a lot of degenerates coming in but also that might have been the first stock that somebody bought and
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that introduced them to the markets and whether it was a stock option or a crypto that is what that is their first
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interaction with the financial system and then they start to learn and then they become informed and then they're
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participating in the system that I think institutional Wall Street has been capitalizing on for decades so I think
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great yeah that's a great I I think you lay it out very nicely there and I think that's something that a lot of people
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Miss is the fact that you know it's sort of starts as as entertainment it starts
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as sort of fun and it starts with this degenerate attitude of like I don't care it you know if I lose if I lose
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this $100 you know what what's it to me you know it's it's no worse than like
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gambling on a basketball game or going to the casino but I think what happens
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after that initial interaction is of often a process of Education that is is
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missed by the outside world you know people learn about the system and they
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get smarter and often they do figure out how to become smarter investors
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sometimes that means leaving behind the sort of degenerate plays um but you know
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that that often remains a part of the a part of this world like there are a lot
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of people out there you know Jamie who created Wall Street bets is this interesting example of somebody who got
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started with options got started losing money on options I mean options are
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particularly risky part of the markets um and those losses sort of led him to
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rethink his investing and he you know put a lot of his uh retirement savings
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into uh index funds you know sort of safe um long-term Investments um but at
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the same time he put aside a pool for himself to keep playing in the markets and keep trying to figure out like how
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do you make it work if you're trying to trade you know how who what are the big
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guys doing how can I emulate that how should I not emulate that and that that
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sort of again that process of education is something that I think is easy to miss 100% And I think you you you know
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touched on an interesting point where you know as I'm a 34 year old that you know grew up and I was you know looking
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for a job right you know in the heart of the financial crisis and you know as I've grown up in my career one of the
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things that has constantly kind of like beat down to us is like you know get your 6040 or 8020 portfolio set it
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forget it don't think about investing but one kind of like counter argument that I have uh around that is that I
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think more people generally need to understand the risk tolerance and and be able to like experiment with that a bit
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and I think that you know having some form of money that you can set aside from your larger assets that you own or
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like your net worth is really valuable because you know you should blow up your account you know I think at one point in
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your life early you should have l losses so that you can understand and learn from those and then become a more informed investor overall and
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institutions blow up their funds all the time and you know it's just a learning experience so yeah and that's I mean you
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know part of the idea with um investing in trading has always been that it's when you're young
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that you can handle losses it's you are supposed to take risks when you're young
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because you're more able to weather that you know you what you don't want is
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somebody who knows nothing about the markets um trying some get-rich quick scheme when they're in their 50s and
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this is their retirement funds and you know they're 10 years away from retirement and if they lose it then that
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is a whole lot more uh uh that's a whole lot more dangerous to them and to
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society than some 20-year-old who's just getting into this for the first time and
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is learning how the markets work I mean that's that's that's what being young is supposed to to look like I I I have to
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I'm I'm curious Brian I not to turn the table but I'm curious for you what you
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you know it sounds like you have gone through some something of this process yourself what what was your
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initial I'm always so interested to talk to Young I mean I I'm 45 maybe I'm a
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little bit in this camp and I feel like I've been spending my time in this world but each time I get to talk to somebody
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who has gone through this themselves I'm so interesting to hear you know what was it that initially Drew you in was it
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that yeah what what got you first first involved the the thing that was most
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profound on my like wider investing Journey was that you know when I was in high school my dad gave me access to
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some side IRA account that he had with five or 10 grand in it and he basically like let me go and play with it and that
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was right around the time that Google was about to go public and I basically took five or 10,000 bucks whatever was
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in it and just put it all into Google and proceeded to watch Google triple uh over the next couple of years and that
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ultimately afforded me to buy my dad's used car from him which then gave me like a real tangible asset and from that
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moment on I always had a kink for the markets but I was working full-time jobs and I never really had the time or
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energy to spend investing had my 401ks and whatnot and funny enough like graduating college and you know even
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being a little bit mid of my career I heard about Wall Street bets from a co-worker in probably 2018 2019 and
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really started to see a whole different pocket of a community of people that it's funny because like I'm a big
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proponent of like you know like be careful with how folks kind of categorize retail investors and these
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communities because in those communities the type of like early Wall Street bets the level of sophistication is actually
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like quite high now the level of like speech in that and how they refer to things is totally degenerate but I would
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not be I don't think it's that different than what happens on Wall Street already between firms like they are degenerates
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you know when you look at you know the Arcos fun blowing up like you see these things like these everybody has a little
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bit of degeneracy in them and I don't know I I grew a passion for it and then that ultimately led me to learn and
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taught myself how to trade stock options um which I learned from you know some media folks and obviously went down a
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whole Rabbit Hole there but it really helped me educate myself how did that end up going for you I mean did you to
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like pay the tuition at some point and realize oh yeah 100% yeah yeah I lost like yeah so I was doing like some
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complex strategy around selling option premium and the whole kind of just just from a folks who don't really understand
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what that means is that I'm taking the I'm basically selling Insurance to people and you're picking up nickels in
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front of a steamroller and one day that Steamroller hits you and that hit me so my gains that I had from the year of
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that portfolio were wiped away in basically two days because I did not have and and ultimately though I think
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it was a really profound learning experience for me because what I learned through that is that I am a better
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person when I focus my energy on things that I can be productive for and nobody gets Rich trading like nobody weal
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nobody gets wealthy trading I mean yes in theory you can but like starting with a 10 or $20,000 brokerage account and
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getting wealthy from that is a ve is basically doesn't exist and the time that I felt putting into it I was not
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really getting back now I did learn a lot about how the market works but yeah I I mean yeah
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that's one of the I mean couple of things about what you just said that um really resonate with the story of Wall
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Street bets um I mean one thing about Wall Street bets that the a sort of
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memorable line that I think sums up a lot of what happens there is you know this kid who's who who was going through
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this process himself and said you know a lot of the dumb people on here are really pretty smart like they look dumb
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but like even in even in the dumbest moments of Wall Street bets um even in
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the sort of most degenerate moments there was this strange understanding of the markets that lurked beneath all of
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the you know trolling I mean you know and that and to a degree that's what trolling is like trolling is about doing
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this thing that looks like a joke but actually there's something really serious underneath the joke and you know
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that that is like uh that's that's what Donald Trump has done you know his his
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candidacy began as what everybody assumed everybody thought was a joke and then all of a sudden he's the president
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of the United States and I'm in 2016 you know I tell the story in my book about
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how Wall Street bets became intertwined with the people you know with Trump and
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R back leonald and you know Jamie who had created Wall Street bets identified
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very early on like Trump is everything we are on Wall Street bets he's he is
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this this troll who is both like you
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know sending up the system he's like he's like a satire on the system but he also um has this like you know appeal
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this this broad appeal that is easy to miss if you just focus on um on the sort
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of joke on the surface and that I mean that is what trolling is and that's that's that's what makes this whole
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system and this whole world emerged so confusing and complicated because it's
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like because it's two things at the same time um and and I think so so you know
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you have people being really dumb and really smart at the same time um but you
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also have people um losing when they're able to do that in a way that leads them
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to make smarter decisions and um and and and I think part of that is is being
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honest about the losses right I mean one of the things that was so unique about Wall Street bets in this story because
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it was a place where you could go on and talk about losing money you know the the sort of traditional idea of uh day
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Traders and like the old message boards in the 90s they were all about people bragging about how they' made money you
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know they were bragging and trying to get other people to copy them and that that really is kind of unhealthy because
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you get this you get this um sort of misshapen perspective on how many people
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are winning you think everybody's making money and Wall Street bets was very different Wall Street bets from the beginning was about like we're GNA talk
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about our losses and be honest about it and maybe you know make fun of ourselves talk call ourselves degenerates um but
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when you talk about losses you you you offer an opportunity to learn from them you know you if you're gonna be honest
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about your losses people won't come away thinking like oh this is easy I'm Gonna Get Rich overnight you you you realize
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how hard this actually is and to take a quick turn for a second I know in your original book digital gold you profile
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the wnl Vos twins did you go to college with them or did you were you there at the same time uh I was there at the same
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time I didn't know them in college but that was actually I mean the the way I began uh reporting on crypto was a story
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that I wrote the first story that that sort of outed them as significant holders of Bitcoin I wrote a story back
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in early 2013 where they had not previously publicly identified as crypto owners or
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crypto holders and they came out and said in the story you know we've got we've assembled what we think is
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something like 1% of all the outstanding Bitcoin and we believe in this and they were sort of the first people
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to um the first people who had a reputation from a different world who came out and said I believe in crypto
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before that you know it had just been a bunch of degenerates and you know Silk
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Road users and so that was like the story that got me started talking with them and and in digital gold I told
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their story their their sort of Journey Through crypto yeah that that's been really interesting and also up until
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what was it last week when they announced that both of them individually are going to be giving a million dollars in crypto to the Trump campaign Trump
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just came out announc speaking at Bitcoin Miami what do you take on how Bitcoin has been politic ized around you
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know in the history of your reporting on the matter what do you see going into this election cycle is this all smok and
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mirrors or do you think that there's a meaningful change that's emerging if Trump does get back in office I mean I
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think that crypto has always been um a world has always been attractive to a
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world of people who really did not trust the status quo you know I I think that
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is has there there the sort of polite people who are just investing in it for
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the gains but it's so hard to to get involved in crypto and not sort of buy
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into this narrative that the old world is broken and we have to build a new one
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you know that this like Bitcoin is this sort of fundamental uh challenge to the old
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system and saying like that the basic this basic building block of society your money doesn't work and you need a
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new one um I mean I think that that is um I can
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see the appeal of that I think it's it's it's a dangerous uh philosophy it's just it's like it's this idea that chaos is
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the answer you know chaos is the is the way fix things um and I think that's very much where Trump comes down as well
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is he's like he's like a chaos monkey who sort of just wants to like right you
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know with the old system and break it and um and I think that it's it's not
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surprising that that crypto and Trump have become intertwined I certainly don't think everybody who's into crypto
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is a trump supporter but I think it's easy to see how these how these things come together and it's it's been such a
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big part of the history of this whole world of online money oh yeah especially when you hear a lot of the Bitcoin
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maximalists and the real OG guys that are trying to take a country over themselves have a sovereign area and
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you're like what is going on here this is some radical thinking but yeah it's definitely been interesting to watch um
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you were a co-producer on this is not Financial advice if I'm not mistaken uh yeah I worked with yep I worked with the
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guys who created that cool yeah because we were we were involved a bit in that as well and I think what was exciting
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about that film and I'm curious how you kind of see this you know they the this is not Financial advice obviously
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covered you know unique stories of individual people who have gone through the last couple of years and seeing
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their financial experience and tapping into different communities um how do you feel these online communities are being
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represented do you feel like you know is Wall Street bets a net good uh for society or do you feel like they
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shouldn't exist where where do you kind of stand on these these communities I mean I don't think I can say I think it
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it it it should not exist I mean it's it is it feeds this need that you know it
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feeds this need of people who um who feel I mean I think in many places Left
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Behind of course as I've said you know who feel distrustful of the way things
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work today and um you know Wall Street bets has been a place where people are
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encouraged to be honest about what they're doing and I think there's a real
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virtue in that I mean that was part of the original sort of philosophy of Wall
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Street bets and it's really been maintained over time and it's been it's been interesting to see see how that has
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sort of split off from other segments of the community you know after um the GameStop runup in 2021 a lot of what you
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might call the GameStop maximalist you know you just as you have Bitcoin maximalist there are now GameStop
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maximalists who think that GameStop you know is being manipulated as part of
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this sort of Wall Street conspiracy and those people were eventually were
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actually not eventually pretty quickly um made to feel not welcome on Wall Street bets Wall Street bets basically
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said like listen man people are here to talk honestly about their Investments
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and when they lose money they're encouraged to be honest about that and you know there were these interesting
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crowdsourced research efforts that went into GameStop early on but when it
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turned into this sort of conspiracy theory about uh about Wall Street trying
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to uh you know kill this company and screw over the sort of or Ary people um
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it it it did turn into a conspirac I mean it was that it was a conspiracy theory and um it's been interesting to
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see how you know Ryan Cohen and now royan Kitty have sort of gotten drawn into that but Wall Street bets the
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moderators on Wall Street bets basically said like that's not us that's not for us and so it created the Schism you know
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people went off the super ston is is like the most sort of visible voluble
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representative of that Community where you know the whole this the sort of the
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whole community and culture gets built around these ideas about GameStop and I
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think I mean I think that is dangerous and I think it is interesting to see how Wall Street bets has sort of rejected
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that and said like if you want to talk about that go to some other subreddit um but you know I think Beyond uh whether
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it should should or shouldn't exist I mean to me it's just this this this world that you have to
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understand if you want to understand where we're going you know it's like you can it's there's a tendency in the media
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to say like Trump is like impolite and you know goes against our values so
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we're just not even going to engage with it and I think that only leads these these worlds and the distrust to grow
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larger and you just you need to understand this you need to engage with this um if you want to understand how
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young people how people are thinking about the world today yeah and and it's interesting that you bring up the super
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St kind of like post GameStop maximalist because as we we've followed this area
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closely and we actually had Dave Lower on the podcast previously who you know runs an advocacy firm focused on helping
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you know push back against a lot of the narrative from you know Citadel and others but when you look at some of these issues around like direct
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registration of your shares and failure to deliver you know with naked shorting and stuff it to me that's where this
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entire conversation comes to a head with you know the institutional Wall Street rules that just don't they're not like
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caught up yet and that I think allows some of those conspiracy theories to run wild when people are sitting there
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scratching their head around how can you have more than 100% short interests on a stock and you're like how does this work
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um and then that's kind of where I think you see this like push against Gary guinsler and then it becomes a real
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political issue of like why can that stuff still exist and that's Wall Street
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just playing games I don't know it's it's interesting I mean I I think I think it is the opacity the lack of
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transparency from Wall Street that has created this situation I mean that that
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is what created the distrust to begin with um but you know to some degree I
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think like a lot of this comes down to just like the complexity of the systems
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that we rely on and and the these are these are almost by Nature complex
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opaque systems um I mean you know if you just if you like try to understand how a
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single stock you know you buy a single stock like how that trade actually happens there's five different participants involved and like each of
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them is is paying a different price and it's I mean to some degree that system
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is like just a a a product of how complicated our world is is you know you
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have stocks trading on different continents at different times and and um
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I don't know what to do about that but that we live in a world that's so
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complicated that no one person can understand it and that is where a lot of
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the distrust grows from and um again I mean you know that is where these
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efforts to sort of simplify things say like okay just let's let's go to a blockchainbased system where you are
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direct transacting with you know there's just two people and there's an atomic transaction where both things are
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transferred at the same time I understand the desire to go for that much simpler system but um the world has
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the structure that it has and I don't know that it's as easy as just you know getting rid of it overnight uh so a
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couple last quick questions um while we wrap up here um did you own crypto you know I was not able was not essentially
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not allowed to when I was at at the New York Times I um the the understanding was had always
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been like if you cover a company a stock you can't own that stock in that company
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you know you you will have you will develop an interest in whether that company succeeds and it will color your
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coverage so that decision was made pretty early on at the same time we sort of said I can have enough to sort of
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play with it to understand how it works it's hard to cover if you don't understand how it works if you don't
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understand the basics of like how a transaction happen happens what it looks like on the blockchain when a transaction goes through so I made that
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argument and had little little bits once I left the New York Times I got sort of
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released from those strictures I also wasn't covering uh crypto in the same
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way anymore um and so I felt like okay I can own some I I I have tried to keep it
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to a sort of small part of my portfolio I have not like gone all in but you know
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I do think it feels like a bet on a on a particular version of the future that
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does not uh is is significant enough that it's worth betting on so I and and
30:07
to that note has your reporting on these online communities like changed your investing philosophy or are you very
30:13
much like an index fund throw it in and just let it sit or have you made a noticeable impact or noticeable change
30:20
in your personal strategy um that's an interesting question I mean I think you know uh going in on crypto you know
30:28
investing in crypto has been something of I mean and it's not a big investment but it's a recognition that that this is
30:36
you know not unlikely to be a part of the future and I think sort of thinking
30:42
more speculatively about the future is something that this community does you know it's not just about you know what
30:49
are the what are what's the revenues and free cash flow this quarter it's about
30:54
realizing like the world is changing and that so if you wanna like Investments
31:00
are about what's going to happen in the future they're not about what's necessarily happening right now there
31:06
are some bet on the future being different than the present and I think that that that way of thinking has
31:13
gotten more into my mind as an investor but also into you know the obviously
31:19
like right now the big story is like Ai and and and how AI is going to change
31:24
the economy and that's not a bet on like how these you know chat Bots work right
31:30
now that is a bet on the world changing and I think that is very much built into
31:36
this new world of online money yeah and it's and it was interesting hearing a lot of this like kind of Gossip around
31:42
like AI meeting financial markets and I I was reading a bit about when you know the online brokerages first really
31:49
started to gain some traction and there was this whole thought that with the invention of the internet and everybody having access to markets it would
31:55
actually lead to less volatility because all the information's out there for everybody and in fact it actually led to
32:01
the opposite and I think I'm I'm very curious to see what happens when AI start running index funds and others is
32:07
it going to lead to more volatility more craziness or is this gonna stabilize things and yeah I mean that's sort of
32:14
similar to the argument that you know there was always this idea that as Bitcoin got bigger um it would become
32:22
less volatile and I guess I don't know where the latest research on that has been but certainly as it grew the
32:28
volatility did not go away you know this is still a very volatile asset when you
32:34
are when your investment is is about some bet on the future that is sort of
32:40
by its nature going to be a very volatile proposition so the trolls trolls of Wall Street um when where
32:46
where can we find more information about it where can we get it yeah well you can obviously get it your at your local
32:52
bookstore or Amazon or Barnes & Nobles anywhere else you you buy books on
32:57
online I mean the audio books out with a great narrator and uh you know I've got a a bunch of stuff on my website
33:04
Nathaniel popper.com about my new book my old book the movies that I've done um
33:10
but yeah trolls of Wall Street is is occupy me for the last few years and
33:16
I think it's an important story that easily gets uh sort of overlooked what what do you see in perk late up now you
33:22
mentioned AI what where do you have your eyes on next from an online community or is the GameStop story still not over yet
33:29
well I don't know I think you know I think part of what's interesting about this latest eruption of GameStop is that
33:36
in Broad terms retail Traders have sort of moved away from meme stocks I mean
33:41
there is still a very dedicated crowd that is focused on GameStop and super stons um but that has become a smaller
33:49
part of the overall Universe because of this process of Education that we're talking about you know people have
33:55
shifted from focusing on Meme stocks thinking about um the broader stock
34:00
market obviously AI stocks to me I mean AI feels like the most interesting thing
34:06
going on right now and so that's where I'm spending a lot of my attention now just trying to understand and of course
34:11
that is not necessarily a world of um online communities upstarts that's a world of the Giants you know to to make
34:19
these Frontier models you have to have you know billions of dollars and so it's a real shift away from this you know
34:26
world of startups and I I guess it's going to be interesting to see where that ends up everybody's following
34:32
Nvidia and their impact on the markets or is profound you know readjustments happening to indexes because of that
34:37
it's it's really wild to watch how fast these things happen um yeah but Nathaniel thank you very much for
34:43
joining us on the bullish Studio podcast um please go check out his latest book the trolls of Wall Street check out his
34:50
website shoot him a follow Nathaniel thank you very much for taking the time to join us today thank you so much for
34:55
having me Brian cool thank you
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