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Up next in 10
Embark on a gripping journey with "Sway In The Morning" as we delve into the chilling story of Pierre Rushing—a man behind bars fighting for his innocence. In this exclusive, controversial episode, we welcome back Jordan Grotzinger, a renowned attorney dedicated to the pursuit of justice, who breaks down the complex web of legal battles and unveils shocking new evidence.
Discover the heart-wrenching reality faced by Pierre, convicted on the shaky testimony of a single witness. In a case that will challenge your beliefs about the criminal justice system, Grotzinger shares updates and insights that could turn the tide in the fight for Pierre's freedom.
Join us as we confront hard truths and explore the power of hope and resilience in the face of adversity. This is a conversation that amplifies the voices of the forgotten and casts a spotlight on the forgotten population of the wrongfully incarcerated.
Don't miss out on this profound and thought-provoking episode. Subscribe to Sway's Universe now for more exclusive interviews that cut to the heart of the most pressing social issues of our time. Share your thoughts, support the cause, and be a part of the movement towards justice. Follow us on social media and visit our website for the latest updates on Pierre Rushing's fight for freedom. #JusticeForPierre #SwayIntheMorning #SwaysUniverse #WrongfulConviction
CHAPTERS:
0:00 - Introduction to Episode
1:26 - Guest Introduction: Jordan Glicksman
2:29 - Update on Pierre Rushing Case
10:30 - Analyzing Justice System Flaws
12:02 - Live Call with Pierre Rushing
16:36 - Challenges to Exonerate Pierre Rushing
19:30 - Advocacy for DNA Evidence Testing
24:10 - Special Guest: Jordan Granger
25:50 - Impact of Strategic Voting on Justice
30:30 - Inside Look at Government Operations
32:52 - Voting Influence on Prosecution Practices
Show More Show Less View Video Transcript
0:00
today we got a reoccurring guest he's a
0:02
friend of ours uh so much so that we
0:04
have each other phone numbers and he
0:05
texts us um often just to say what's up
0:08
and then to keep us posted on the reason
0:10
he came by last time Tracy would you
0:12
like to do the honors yeah no problem
0:14
this is a mighty successful attorney who
0:18
focuses on trade secret law
0:20
entertainment litigation um fintech so
0:23
much but he's also a heart-c centered
0:26
attorney because he devotes a lot of his
0:28
time to pronal cases that revolve around
0:32
criminal justice and the one that we're
0:34
highlighting today has to do with a
0:36
young black man by the name of Pierre
0:38
rushing and Pierre this is quite the
0:41
perplexing case citizens and we'll give
0:43
you a summary we'll remind you of it but
0:46
Pierre is behind bars because he was
0:50
accused and convicted of being a part of
0:53
a heinous act that involved a shooting
0:56
however Pierre vehemently claims his
0:59
innocence and there is piles of evidence
1:02
to support that innocence however he
1:05
still remains incarcerated and so last
1:09
year is when we were introduced to this
1:11
case and we felt it was very important
1:13
to get an update on this because I know
1:16
that the this is a case and a cause that
1:18
the citizens would support and want
1:20
detail so here to break it down is our
1:22
friend Jordan gr singer Jordan Tracy
1:26
sway great to see you guys and thanks
1:27
for having me back um can't believe it's
1:30
been about a year and a half I think
1:32
since I was here so as I did last time
1:35
I'm going to jump into the Pierre case
1:37
and and give you an update but uh one of
1:40
the Striking things that uh brought me
1:43
into this space are the statistics on
1:46
exonerations and as of today I gave you
1:49
guys statistics a year and a half ago
1:50
remember as of today uh since 1989 there
1:54
have been
1:55
3,439 exonerations which adds up to
1:58
31,000 70 years lost and so there really
2:03
is a uh forgotten
2:05
population uh and a population that um
2:09
tragically is is easy to forget about
2:11
you know we all have our day jobs you
2:14
guys do this I sit behind a desk and go
2:16
to court uh but there are people out
2:18
there who are in prison wrongfully and
2:23
it's easy for us to just kind of oh
2:24
that's really terrible and get on with
2:26
our day they don't have that choice so
2:29
let me summarize the Russian case
2:31
quickly and then uh give you an update
2:34
so Pierre is a 34-year-old black man who
2:36
was convicted in
2:37
201 for murder and he's serving 50 years
2:40
to life Wow the reason he was convicted
2:43
is because of one witness this witness
2:45
was a seven-time felon serial crack
2:48
abuser who was high at the time of the
2:50
crime uh changed his description of
2:53
Pierre uh by 6 in 100 lb in skin color
2:57
and identified him 3 week weeks late
3:00
that was the only witness against him
3:02
and there is no physical evidence uh the
3:06
court the trial court also improperly
3:08
admitted certain evidence which a court
3:10
of appeal later said was improper but it
3:12
wasn't improper enough and so he was
3:15
convicted and uh about five or six years
3:18
ago uh he had another set of attorneys
3:21
that uh filed a habus petition two
3:24
additional Witnesses came forward who
3:26
were at the scene uh and said it wasn't
3:29
him one of them actually identified the
3:32
person that we think the true
3:35
perpetrator is and nobody's looked into
3:38
that uh I took this case in early 2022
3:43
because of our mutual friend Jason Flom
3:45
we all know Jason shout out to Jas been
3:47
on the show Absolutely who's been on the
3:48
show and is probably the most well-known
3:51
activist in this space and he's got a
3:52
great podcast called wrongful conviction
3:55
Pierre was featured on that show and uh
3:58
I listened to it and I thought
4:00
um we got to help we got to help this
4:02
guy and my firm to its credit has a very
4:05
robust pro bono program so we took the
4:07
case pro bono as I said that happened in
4:10
about uh early 2022 since then and
4:13
earlier this year we have come up with
4:16
two new Witnesses one of them was a was
4:20
a person who was standing with the
4:23
perpetrator when the shooting happened
4:25
he's doing time for another crime and he
4:27
came forward and swore in writing that
4:29
it wasn't Pierre in writing written
4:31
statement yes yes okay and then on Super
4:35
Bowl weekend of this past year we have a
4:37
great investigator named Grant Fine and
4:40
he's been looking for the one witness
4:42
who identified Pierre because we thought
4:44
we have we had many reasons to think
4:47
that he might come around and tell the
4:49
truth and that he was under some
4:51
pressure 10 years ago more than 10 years
4:53
ago now when he gave that testimony he
4:56
pops up in County Jail on Super Bowl
4:59
weekend
5:00
this past year and my investigator goes
5:03
and interviews him and he completely
5:05
recants his testimony against Pierre and
5:08
signs a written statement saying that uh
5:11
I'm I'm coming clean to correct an
5:13
injustice it wasn't him despite my
5:16
testimony and you know the investigator
5:19
who is a professional I mean this is a
5:21
guy who he's a Harvard Law School
5:22
graduate actually in the same class as
5:25
Obama and Justice Gorsuch he's got a
5:28
soft touch and he's a pro
5:30
and you know he said to this witness
5:33
thank you but why are you doing this and
5:36
he said well effectively he said well I
5:38
remember when I was shown the photo
5:41
lineup um you know I recognized one guy
5:43
who was my friend I didn't want to talk
5:45
to him I recognized this other guy
5:47
rushing who I sort of who sort of looked
5:49
familiar from around the neighborhood
5:51
but I didn't know him so I pointed to
5:52
him because I figured the police would
5:54
come down on me and at this time when he
5:57
was interviewed he was he was own sober
6:00
because he'd been in lockup for a couple
6:02
of days I understand completely lucid
6:05
and Cooperative so uh in March of this
6:09
year we filed a new habius petition
6:12
we're still in the thick of it these
6:13
case these cases as you know take many
6:16
years you might have seen yesterday uh
6:19
someone was exonerated after 20 30 years
6:23
they they just take forever and go up
6:24
and down in the courts so we filed a
6:27
habus
6:28
petition and the trial court not too
6:31
surprisingly as I'm coming to understand
6:35
denied it on the on the primary ground
6:38
that well Mr rushing knew who these
6:41
Witnesses were all
6:42
along well you know that obviously
6:45
doesn't make sense for a couple of
6:46
reasons number one the person who was on
6:49
the scene uh with the shooter who came
6:52
forward first a prior set of attorneys
6:55
for Mr rushing had tried to reach him
6:58
and see if he would talk and he refused
7:01
and so the logical conclusion of this
7:03
ruling is that an Indigent prisoner has
7:06
to regularly check with a reluctant
7:09
witness to see if they've changed their
7:10
mind there's obviously no law that says
7:13
that and of course the so witness he was
7:16
the one who identified rushing in the
7:18
first place so what's he supposed to do
7:21
you know the week after the conviction
7:22
he's supposed hey can I make a call to
7:24
this witness and see if he changed his
7:26
mind so we have put a a star appet team
7:31
together okay and um we're going to uh
7:36
run this up the appet flag poll but in
7:38
the meantime what we're trying to do is
7:42
schedule a meeting with the district
7:44
attorney of alam County because if she
7:48
just assigns a deputy and an
7:51
investigator to go interview these two
7:55
witnesses themselves and see for
7:58
themselves she might be persuaded that
8:01
you know what we'll join this petition
8:04
because a DA doesn't have the power to
8:06
you know snap the prison doors open a
8:08
judge has to do that but it helps if the
8:09
da is on your side now this district
8:12
attorney is named Pamela price uh she
8:15
came into office in
8:17
January and she is a she holds herself
8:21
out as a
8:22
reformer um you know someone who is
8:25
interested in in wrongful convictions
8:28
and civil rights and so you know I I'm
8:32
not as I tell my civil clients I'm not
8:34
big on uh press media I I don't think it
8:39
advances the ball in civil cases most of
8:41
the time but here I feel like we should
8:45
be on the same team we are on team
8:47
Justice we are on team truth and the
8:52
objective facts are you've got a case
8:55
where there is nobody left to testify
8:58
against this man nobody today will swear
9:02
that he did it whereas five people from
9:05
trial through postconviction not
9:07
including him will swear that he didn't
9:10
and there is no other evidence so I look
9:13
I'm biased I'm an advocate I'm his
9:15
lawyer um but to any objective person
9:20
should a man like that be in prison and
9:23
even if you think well you know that's
9:25
the process and a jury decided that even
9:28
if you think that with those facts my
9:31
question is this my question is this to
9:33
everybody listening and to miss price is
9:36
it worth a couple of hours for a deputy
9:39
and an investigator to drive down the
9:40
road and talk to these people yeah we
9:43
are on team Justice we should be on the
9:47
same team here so please see for
9:50
yourself I believe that Miss price is a
9:53
reformer I believe that she wants to
9:55
find the truth and to be totally
9:58
transparent
9:59
I'm a little uncomfortable I don't you
10:01
know I I hope this interview doesn't rub
10:04
her the wrong way or trigger her and I
10:06
understand how it could because she's
10:08
got a job to do there are politics
10:10
involved unfortunately but I also have a
10:13
duty to maybe create a little discomfort
10:16
and raise awareness for this kind of
10:18
thing because it's not a big ask I'm
10:20
asking for a couple of hours because the
10:23
objective probability is this that this
10:26
man is innocent wow um man first of all
10:30
thank you for um for your fight for
10:32
justice uh but we appreciate it it
10:35
doesn't this man doesn't get paid to do
10:37
this necessarily and you've been you've
10:41
been really uh adamant in this case with
10:44
Pierre and Pierre is from the Bay Area
10:46
correct yes what city is he from Oakland
10:50
he's from the same place I'm from and
10:52
it's been often I've seen innocent
10:54
people from Oakland uh with evidence on
10:57
their side remain in jail
10:59
what is the benefit of that why wouldn't
11:02
uh someone want to seek out the Justice
11:04
on this behalf if all of these facts are
11:06
lining up like you're saying I don't
11:09
have the answer uh as I alluded at the
11:12
top of this uh
11:15
conversation there is an inertia that
11:17
sets in for some reason I don't I don't
11:21
understand I'm not a
11:23
psychologist um you know this is not my
11:25
day job I do pro bono cases because it's
11:28
a labor of love not not because I get
11:30
paid to do it okay but you know you talk
11:33
to Jason and you see the same thing even
11:35
with good Das even with Progressive Das
11:38
and by the way I'm not I don't fit into
11:40
boxes I'm I'm a Law and Order person but
11:44
I'm a Justice person yeah um and so I
11:47
don't I you don't have an answer for
11:48
that I don't have an answer I I I do
11:51
want to read a quote of a very important
11:53
person before we stop that I think
11:56
addresses that before we do that cuz I
11:59
know he only has so much time we
12:01
actually have your client Pierre rushing
12:03
he's actually on the phone with us right
12:05
now Pierre welcome to the show how you
12:07
doing hey Pierre man what's going on
12:09
good morning good morning everybody good
12:11
morning s morning russing on this line
12:15
man how are you holding up it's been
12:16
since
12:18
2011 um but what's keeping you inspired
12:20
what's keeping you
12:23
motivated man hope hope for justice but
12:26
before we before I get started CU I know
12:27
we're we're we're we're we're
12:29
wrong time I Just Want to Thank You sway
12:31
for being a hip hop uh pillar and stabl
12:34
in the community and thank you for
12:36
giving me this platform again but as far
12:38
as me like I'm I'm fighting like Jordan
12:40
Jordan keeps me fighting and we're just
12:42
uh just hoping for
12:45
justice what kind of ways have you been
12:47
able to adapt um knowing you're an
12:50
innocent man and you um in just unjustly
12:53
are behind bars what kind of things do
12:56
you do personally to keep you going do
12:58
you meditate are you exercising are you
13:00
reading what sort of things you do for
13:03
personal
13:05
care um the first part of that question
13:07
there is no adapting um I believe
13:10
majority of the dudes that's walking
13:11
around here that are also wrongfully
13:13
convicted are not getting the kind of
13:15
push that they need because they are
13:17
adopting and they are adapting as far as
13:19
keeping my mind safe and keeping me uh
13:22
constantly growing out I'm I'm
13:23
constantly working out I'm constantly
13:25
reading I read over 500 books a year um
13:28
and I'm constantly fighting like my
13:30
first three years I never really even
13:31
went to the yard I just always was in a
13:33
law library reaching out to the
13:35
Innocence Project shout out to Linda
13:36
star she's the director of the Innocence
13:38
Project in California reaching out to
13:40
different people like Jason F reaching
13:42
out to just anybody that would that
13:44
would listen to me I reached out to
13:46
Pamela price the uh current district
13:48
attorney when she was a civil rights uh
13:50
attorney before she was a district
13:52
attorney I just WR I've written
13:55
everybody wow okay yeah Pierre my
13:59
goodness I'm glad that you are able to
14:00
call up and speak to us because it adds
14:03
to this to actually hear your voice and
14:05
your story and I hate that anyone who is
14:08
behind bars you know you get painted in
14:10
a very one-dimensional way and once
14:13
there is the tit your telephone number
14:15
will be monitored and recorded this is
14:18
real exactly this is this is not theater
14:21
citizens at all but um Pierre I feel
14:23
like it's also important for you I would
14:25
love for you to share a bit more of your
14:27
Humanity who you are outside of this
14:30
what interests that you have like when
14:32
it comes to your dream still I'm going
14:34
to speak it into existence when you're
14:36
on the other side how would you like to
14:38
spend your your
14:41
life well I just want to first like um
14:44
answer the humanity part uh as I told
14:46
sway before the last time we talked I've
14:48
performed I've uh participated in full
14:51
drives from behind prison and what I
14:53
mean by food drives is shout out to Mr
14:55
Fab Mr Fab runs turkey drives and uh toy
14:58
driv around this time every year I think
15:00
he's on like his 17th year I've the I've
15:03
contributed to that two years within the
15:05
last four I think last year in the
15:06
holiday I was in in an ass I've uh I've
15:11
done my own toy drives with u Dominique
15:14
Cleo in San Francisco um I just never
15:17
let it just put me down and people know
15:19
that I've done it I've also been doing
15:20
music since I since I've been
15:21
incarcerated never letting this
15:23
situation Take My Dreams Away From Me
15:25
shout out gazy gazy gave one of my
15:27
family members me a label a label deal
15:31
to distribute my music wow Gaz gazi runs
15:34
Empire Records local distribution
15:36
platform um out of the Bay Area he's giv
15:38
thousands of people chances like this
15:40
really great guy yes yes yes really
15:44
shout out goly shout out opportunity
15:45
shout out uh Roy for for making that
15:48
happen but it just never stopping if you
15:51
believe it and you can achieve it I know
15:53
I'm not going to spend 50 years I'm not
15:55
going to die in prison I know I'd be
15:58
home very shortly so I had to put in the
15:59
work as if I was going to be home very
16:02
shortly and that's what I'm continuing
16:03
to do all right um Pierre um man I
16:06
appreciate you even taking this time I
16:08
know you only got so much time right uh
16:11
did did you want to say anything to
16:13
Pierre Pier I'm glad to hear your voice
16:15
I'm glad to hear uh I'm I'm glad to know
16:19
that other people are hearing your voice
16:20
now and um speaking of books I I don't
16:24
think the books I've sent you have
16:25
arrived yet but uh I'm going to plan a
16:27
visit soon if you don't get them I'll
16:29
buy new copies and bring them
16:32
myself yes sir Mike mes you want to jump
16:36
in yeah just Jordan I'm just curious
16:37
like what is the biggest obstacle for
16:39
you right now um in getting the Jordan
16:41
uh Pierre brought
16:45
home
16:47
um I think the biggest obstacle is the
16:52
lack of Engagement uh from the DA's
16:54
office I think that like I said if if
16:57
they would just in invest a little bit
16:59
of time and primarily right now
17:01
interview those two witnesses themselves
17:04
don't take my word for it I think they
17:07
would come around or at least um be
17:10
willing to search a little harder for
17:12
the truth because of the objective facts
17:15
and again I say that somewhat
17:17
reluctantly because I don't I'm trying
17:19
to get a meeting I don't it's
17:21
unresponsive that's what I'm trying to
17:23
figure out are they are they
17:24
unresponsive that it's that inertia and
17:26
and look I I know they're really busy
17:28
too and they're following a process and
17:31
they're doing their jobs and I respect
17:33
them um but with the facts here and
17:36
we've got these two witnesses teed up
17:38
who as of today are reachable I mean
17:41
both are behind bars so you can go talk
17:44
to them and that's all I ask and you
17:47
know to that point the deputy in charge
17:51
initially seemed to be interested in
17:53
interviewing them but then they just
17:54
filed an opposition and the judge just
17:56
went with it because that's what happens
17:59
in these cases it's it's uh it is moving
18:01
of mountains and it's why it takes so
18:04
many years so um that's probably the big
18:07
biggest obstacle with all due respect to
18:10
the DA's office I'm just trying to be
18:12
transparent and um and get that meeting
18:16
and get them to spend a couple of hours
18:18
interviewing these Witnesses and if
18:19
they're satisfied great this will start
18:21
moving in the right direction if they're
18:22
not we'll keep litigating and see where
18:25
where this lands but uh I I would like
18:27
some cooperation because again I think
18:29
we should be on the same team here is
18:32
there something that we the public can
18:34
do that would help move this along or
18:37
bring this attention to the DA I I think
18:39
you're doing it I think uh people will
18:42
hear this I think that da price will
18:45
hear this if people want to try to get
18:48
in touch with the DA's office it's
18:50
pretty easy to figure out how walking
18:52
that fine line I'm not going to sit here
18:54
today and tell everybody to bomb the
18:57
telephones right right because again I I
18:59
I'm I want to be respectful at the same
19:02
time I need to light a little bit of a
19:03
fire because I've got a client who I
19:05
believe is innocent and who I believe
19:07
most people would think you know this at
19:09
least D deserves a little more
19:11
investigation so to your question I
19:13
think you're doing it and and not just
19:15
related to Pierre but as you guys know
19:18
from my last appearance talking about
19:20
this stuff can sometimes Inspire other
19:23
people other lawyers to get involved
19:24
that otherwise wouldn't have known about
19:26
this forgotten population
19:29
um I want to pull up a caller uh Pier
19:31
you still got a few minutes few
19:34
seconds yeah yeah yeah before I just
19:37
want to interject before the before the
19:38
phone um hangs up
19:42
um I want to just make a call to action
19:45
if I can sway yes and I just personally
19:47
want to just ask and particularly the
19:50
nation to ask P La price if if they
19:54
believe this guy did it or guilty and
19:57
I'm not saying she believes it or not
19:58
not but what in what what what guilty
20:01
guy is going to tell
20:03
you DNA test a vehicle this vehicle was
20:07
immediately detained after this after
20:09
this uh after the murder and there's
20:12
cigarette bus there's headrest seats
20:15
there's all type of stuff in this car
20:17
and the course will not let his DNA test
20:19
the car I don't think nobody speaks on
20:21
that
20:22
enough majority of wrongfully convicted
20:25
guys are exonerated through DNA test
20:27
through DNA testing and they will not
20:29
let his DNA test the vehicle that they
20:31
that is still uh material is still in
20:35
Oakland Police Department's uh custody
20:39
they still have it right now to this day
20:41
they have 27 fingerprints out of the car
20:44
soon as the car was detained none of
20:46
those fingerprints match mine and this
20:48
guy Robert Green says hey he killed the
20:50
guy without any gloves on 27
20:54
fingerprints like I'm just asking like
20:57
just please
20:59
I got to be respectful Jordan has asked
21:00
me to be respectful I'm asking Pamela
21:02
price if you hear this please look at
21:05
the case
21:07
please thank you Pierre thank you Pierre
21:10
God bless you Pierre sending love and
21:12
prayers out to you this is Heather um
21:14
sending love and prayers out to you and
21:16
your family cuz it has to be tough
21:18
especially when you know you didn't do
21:20
anything wrong so just if we could if I
21:22
could personally offer anything just
21:24
prayers to you brother hold your
21:27
head thank you very welcome u p and then
21:31
I I'll I'll look um into gazi to see
21:34
what what you guys your family has been
21:36
able to do with the platform and and
21:37
we'll support whatever you guys do
21:39
through that platform um here on my show
21:44
okay yes sir yes sir Pierre russan maner
21:49
Russian hold your head brother okay yeah
21:52
hold your hand I appreciate it sway I
21:54
appreciate it I appreciate it Tracy I
21:56
know you reached out to Jordan thank you
21:58
I appreciate Jason flam Lorie rra Mr Fab
22:02
anybody that has been there um I know
22:04
everybody got their life everybody's
22:06
busy but if you just took five minutes
22:08
out and I didn't mention your name I
22:09
appreciate it thank you thank you
22:12
everybody all right you're welcome and
22:14
send our strength and support to the
22:16
family you got in there as well all
22:19
right this call and your telephone
22:21
number will be monitored and recorded my
22:24
man Pi Russian reminder just another
22:26
reminder all right um um what's next
22:30
well I how much time we have left what's
22:32
next what's next okay I I want to I want
22:35
to read a quote that struck me um you a
22:39
lot of bad stuff is going on in the
22:40
world uh and but this applies to that
22:44
indifference and inertia that I was
22:47
talking about and it's something that I
22:50
think everybody has to deliberately try
22:52
to fight because as I said it's so easy
22:55
you know John and I after this we'll go
22:57
out to breakfast and I'll go to work and
22:58
my Life Will Go On Your Life Will Go On
23:01
yeah and it's easy not to forget but to
23:04
sort of put these uh folks aside and get
23:07
on with your day so I want to read a a a
23:10
a profound quote if I may of course
23:14
indifference can be tempting more than
23:16
that seductive it is so much easier to
23:19
look away from victims it is so much
23:22
easier to avoid such rude interruptions
23:24
to our work our dreams our hopes it is
23:28
after all awkward Troublesome to be
23:31
involved in another person's pain or
23:34
despair yet for the person who is
23:37
indifferent his or her neighbor are of
23:39
no consequence and therefore their lives
23:42
are meaningless their hidden or even
23:45
visible anguish is of no interest that
23:50
was said by Ellie wiel on April 12th
23:53
1999 at the White House so don't be
23:56
indifferent talk talk about it thank you
23:59
for giving us this platform and maybe
24:02
inspiring just one person to get
24:04
involved and give another uh person like
24:07
Pierre hope amen hang out with us for a
24:09
second 888 742 3345 if you have
24:13
questions about the case of Pier rushing
24:15
or any other question uh we got Jordan
24:18
Grainger here uh hang out for a second
24:21
sway the morning shave 45 Jordan gr
24:24
singer has joined us Tracy G and we
24:26
talking about the case of Pierre r
24:28
mhm who was uh convicted yeah um this
24:32
wrul wrongfully convicted in in 2011
24:35
exactly and he is from Oakland um it's
24:38
been said that he was involved in a
24:40
shooting but as we've been going over
24:42
this morning there's so much evidence
24:44
that speaks to the complete opposite
24:46
very complicated but we have his
24:48
attorney Jordan gratzinger here with us
24:51
it seems to me after listening to
24:53
everything that Jordan presented and um
24:56
listening to Pierre today
24:58
um I would be very slow too to respond
25:02
in some cases no matter what state I was
25:04
in especially if evidence was would
25:08
prove that I was wrong you know it it it
25:11
makes the police department it makes
25:13
everybody look really really bad that
25:16
all of these cases keep popping up and
25:18
so many people are innocent I see what
25:20
you're saying it I would I would be slow
25:22
to respond it I would maybe exonerate
25:25
maybe one person a year and just say it
25:28
took a long time to get the EP like it
25:31
this makes so many people look bad just
25:34
by based on what you presented today in
25:37
15 minutes I I that's just me and now it
25:41
makes sense to me why it takes so long
25:43
why people sit in prison for 11 years
25:45
for 5 years for 10 years because it kind
25:48
of like bucks the whole s exposes
25:51
everybody that's just my opinion Mike
25:53
mes when you listen to this case and and
25:56
you created a a a very reputable uh
25:59
efficient program called V quadrant
26:01
right and when you when you listen to
26:03
this case can you break that down for
26:05
Jordan what it was all what vardon is
26:07
all about and how could by doing that
26:12
you could possibly put different people
26:15
in position um that when cases like this
26:18
pop up it could get the type of
26:20
attention it needs by voting the right
26:22
people in yeah absolutely so uh citizens
26:25
what uh sway is referencing to uh some
26:27
of you are with it is vote quadrant so a
26:29
strategic voting system um that does
26:31
exactly what the problem is right now is
26:34
to eradicate and reform criminal justice
26:37
we always talk about it from this very
26:38
broad stroke and Broad scope but we
26:40
never know how to specifically Target it
26:43
in order to make change like this is on
26:45
a micro level it's such a macro level
26:47
because criminal justice is so
26:48
all-encompassing it's prison it's a bail
26:50
bond system it's bail it's it's the
26:53
whole thing and so what I've done is in
26:55
order to eliminate and a process of that
26:57
is to figure out how to vote
26:58
strategically the the initial intent was
27:01
to stop police brutality but this does
27:03
goes into the case to what Jordan is
27:04
talking about one we never really think
27:08
about a police chief and a police chief
27:11
cannot be elected but a police chief is
27:13
appointed so now when we have mayor
27:15
Royal candidates if you care about this
27:17
issue you have to ask the candidates who
27:19
are running for Mayors in your city as
27:21
if they are running for police chief you
27:22
have to be that type of single issue
27:24
voter and so when you go to these town
27:26
halls and when you have the to question
27:28
them you say if elected to mayor of the
27:30
city what type of police chief would you
27:33
appoint what would you want to see the
27:35
structure of police department how do
27:37
you reimagine policing ask those type of
27:40
questions that's number one the second
27:42
thing to which I asked Jordan about like
27:45
what was the biggest obstruction going
27:47
forward in assisting Pierre and he
27:48
mentioned the district attorney a
27:50
district attorney is voted on and so
27:52
often times we don't either pay
27:54
attention to local elections we only
27:56
care about the president and we think
27:57
that overw office can solve everything
27:59
and or we just skip that line Al
28:01
together and we also too allow these
28:03
District Attorneys to go unchecked and
28:05
so when you District Attorneys are
28:07
running you ask them questions how do
28:09
you think about cases how do you go
28:11
about Prosecuting what is your
28:13
relationship to police because the
28:14
District Attorney's office and the
28:15
police department share a symbiotic
28:17
relationship and often times they don't
28:19
want to go against police department in
28:22
fear of they won't be able to get
28:23
evidence that's needed to build their
28:25
cases and to prosecute their cases and
28:27
then from there you would say and then
28:29
in this particular case in Pierre you
28:30
know how would you look at opening
28:32
appeals right and and what would that
28:34
process look like and then the last part
28:36
of the most quadrant because it's four
28:37
is the judges that's another piece that
28:40
we completely ignore when it comes to
28:42
one local elections general elections by
28:45
the time if we are voting by the time we
28:47
get down from the topof the line
28:49
candidate all the way down to the bottom
28:50
you're like uh I never heard of this
28:52
person I never know of these people eeny
28:54
meeny miny mo and or we leave it off and
28:57
so as a result you get judges who are
28:58
sitting on benches who don't care
29:02
about who is coming in front of them
29:04
often um they have no connectivity they
29:06
don't understand a whereabouts now
29:08
judges when you are when judges are
29:10
running you can't ask them how would
29:13
they rule on the case because they have
29:15
to look at the evidence that's presented
29:17
for them at the time so you need to ask
29:19
them questions about like their lived
29:21
experience their background where they
29:23
grow up like what books are they reading
29:25
what music are they listening to what
29:28
trips have they taken lately what
29:30
community service do they do to really
29:32
begin to build a biographical picture
29:35
and portrait of this judge and then you
29:37
can make your decisions accordingly and
29:39
based upon the conversation I've heard
29:40
so far between Jordan and and Tracy and
29:42
Pierre it seems like Pierre's case had
29:45
touch points with each one of those
29:46
quadrants with the exception of the
29:48
mayor but by indirect with the mayor
29:50
because he appointed the police chief
29:51
the police force looking at the evidence
29:53
and the data actually going against the
29:55
district attorney and determining how
29:56
they decid decided to prosecute within
29:58
their office and then the judge in terms
30:00
of how the judge ruled in favor of this
30:02
in particular an important part of the
30:04
judge too that we overlooked is that the
30:05
judge has ability to issue jury
30:07
instructions and so that has a big
30:10
weight on the way the case is swayed and
30:11
so that's how the vote quadrant voting
30:14
system can help prevent situations like
30:17
Pierre going forward people who who are
30:20
the Pier's going forward preventing them
30:23
from being wrongfully accused and having
30:25
to sit uh in prison for an undue time
30:27
time of over 10 15 years it sounds like
30:30
right and you wanted to comment
30:32
Jordan local voting is absolutely
30:34
important but you know to Heather's
30:37
point about and I think you were saying
30:40
if you were on the government side you
30:42
you you would be slow right because it's
30:44
so complicated and it it's you're
30:47
opening a just a massive can of worms
30:50
yes here we have a progressive da you
30:54
know you have the kind of Da on on paper
30:57
you've got the kind of Da that you would
31:01
elect if you go through all the
31:03
exercises that you just described Mike
31:06
and still that inertia persists because
31:10
to Heather's point you know the reality
31:12
is it's not like when a new
31:14
Administration comes in the whole
31:17
building's cleaned out uh and everybody
31:19
is of the same mind and politics
31:22
although I shouldn't have said that cuz
31:23
this isn't political it's not about
31:25
tough on crime or soft on crime this is
31:27
an innocence case so I don't care if
31:29
you're the toughest on crime da in the
31:31
world you should look at innocence cases
31:34
but the reality is even if you have a
31:35
progressive da you've got Das who worked
31:38
on this case that are down the pro
31:42
proverbial Hall who you've got to make
31:44
really
31:45
uncomfortable when you dig into this and
31:48
so I think that I don't know because I'm
31:50
not there that being with that being
31:51
said I don't know if this particular da
31:53
was a district attorney at the time of
31:54
Pier's case but if this is Thea it
31:56
sounds like
31:57
she wasn't right so that's number one it
31:59
sounds like number two if this da is
32:01
having an issue there is the power of
32:03
voting to vote this da out the DA office
32:05
when you are BEC D attorney it's not a
32:07
lifetime appointment so every four years
32:10
this person can be voted out and so if
32:12
this person just because a progressive
32:13
doesn't mean that they're going to side
32:15
with cases doesn't mean they're doing
32:17
their job adequately so this attorney is
32:19
not doing their job then whoever is
32:23
interested in this community in this
32:25
city in this particular case needs to
32:27
Advocate to make sure that this person
32:29
doesn't remain in office for the
32:31
inadequacies based on the information
32:32
I'm hearing or how people believe that
32:34
maybe this district attorney is not
32:36
adequate enough during the election
32:38
cycle when this person's up for
32:39
re-election you can say based upon these
32:41
five 10 15 cases this district attorney
32:44
has been nonresponsive we the people in
32:47
this community don't feel like this
32:48
district attorney is serving us and or
32:50
app holding to their campaign promise as
32:52
you see on the flip side since you
32:54
mention Progressive if you look at
32:56
Attorney General Keith in Minnesota the
32:58
reason why George Floyd's the officers
33:00
who murdered George Floyd's was
33:02
convicted because of the vote quadrant
33:04
system what happened was there was a a
33:06
County district attorney who had no
33:08
interest in Prosecuting the George Floy
33:10
police officers because he felt at the
33:12
time that there was no not enough
33:14
evidence to be had what the mayor then
33:16
came in and said no there is seemingly
33:20
enough evidence to move forward with an
33:23
investigation and then they partnered
33:25
with the governor of the state who then
33:27
appointed the state attorney general who
33:30
was elected Keith Ellison by the people
33:33
of Minnesota so then Keith Ellison
33:35
became the special prosecutor in order
33:37
to bring forward that case so in that
33:40
instance you had a mayor that was
33:42
elected who said there was enough
33:44
evidence here you had a County district
33:46
attorney who has I think since then been
33:48
voted out but he was in that position
33:50
for over 15 20 years comfortable right
33:53
with the status quo because people
33:55
wasn't aware wasn't paying attention
33:57
what was happening and so allow this
33:59
individual to have the seat but then the
34:01
people of Minnesota voted for Keith
34:03
Ellison the state attorney general who
34:05
said I am willing based upon the
34:07
evidence that I'm seeing to go forward
34:10
with this prosecution so you had the
34:12
governor who you voted for the mayor who
34:15
you voted for in Minnesota the attorney
34:17
who you the state attorney who you voted
34:18
for attorney general all move forward in
34:22
order to then move forward with the with
34:25
the an indictment uhhuh then a
34:27
prosecution that rendered a guilty
34:30
verdict for these individuals and then
34:32
we also to look at the sentencing from
34:33
the judge's perspective so that's the
34:35
case of a progressive district attorney
34:38
uh where we saw Justice was actually
34:39
done and then we also too saw that a
34:41
number of cases that happened in the
34:42
state of Georgia um with the individual
34:45
who was murdered unfortunately been so
34:46
many names of individuals who' have been
34:47
murdered I can't remember them all but
34:49
uh there was a situation in Atlanta with
34:52
uh the former mayor of Atlanta Kesha
34:53
botoms Lance botoms who moveed forward
34:56
to make sure was a prosecution they
34:58
worked together with that attorney you
35:00
look at what's happening right now in
35:01
fton County um with that attorney who's
35:03
going after foreign president Trump
35:05
right now she was voted in and so these
35:08
are cases in action uh where this voting
35:11
system seems to work so if this is
35:13
attorney isn't doing her job um then
35:16
it's up to the community to the
35:17
residents to build a Grassroots movement
35:21
in order to make sure that this
35:23
individual doesn't remain if this an
35:26
office this individual being inadequate
35:28
I don't know the story and the cases but
35:30
this is just how it gets done have you
35:33
seen that type of activity with the
35:34
community um that have stepped forward
35:38
and act for
35:40
justice not really you know um or at
35:44
least to look at the case again right
35:47
yeah well we've been able to you know
35:50
lucky for you we've got platforms like
35:53
this to speak about it there haven't
35:55
really been
35:57
rallies or that kind of thing yeah um
36:00
I've talked about this case on other
36:02
shows like The Breakfast Club and um and
36:07
uh with a a local radio host named cat
36:10
Brooks um and again I I think part of it
36:14
is a function
36:16
of I only you know we only want to be
36:20
involved with something that works I I
36:22
don't know I the da is going to respond
36:26
to what the court does uh she can help
36:29
by investigating like I describ but I
36:32
don't know if a rally you know outside
36:34
the DA's office is really going to move
36:36
the needle it could be
36:38
counterproductive but I think the more
36:40
people are aware of this um it can only
36:43
help Jordan Grainger get this man a
36:46
round of applause for the work you do uh
36:48
we appreciate you it's been a year and a
36:51
half since we saw you um and um got a
36:54
chance to meet your son John student
36:56
over at the University of Miami but he's
36:58
he's serious about his education just to
37:00
let y'all know oh you said that cuz he's
37:03
in Miami he's in
37:04
Miami look at him man he's wearing
37:07
clothes today but he probably walks
37:09
around half dressed I'm
37:11
sure um but send our love to Pierre yes
37:14
and we will continue to support you in
37:16
this okay thank you absolutely Jordan
37:19
Grainger man big round of applause for
37:21
him people want to reach you because you
37:22
got a lot of callers Walter from VA
37:23
Leanne from North Carolina um adri
37:26
Walker from the 650 I think that's
37:28
Northern California that is Northern
37:31
California Wilson uh centrail um an 862
37:35
I don't know what area code that is uh
37:37
but uh if people want to reach you how
37:39
can they reach you directly uh social is
37:42
uh Jordan gringer on Instagram andj
37:45
gringer on X you can DM me all right g r
37:48
o t z i n g r and you have a podcast too
37:53
right yes on trade secret law very
37:55
different subject trade secret law trade
37:58
secret law so if you listen I'll just
37:59
warn everybody have have a good amount
38:01
of caffeine and uh you know stay off the
38:07
road
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