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Police here are investigating that awful crash on the A66 at the weekend
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a knife attack that happened this afternoon, a car hitting a wall outside a house last night
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and a fire early yesterday morning which killed two people, all within about three square miles of each other
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I've been told some people don't want to report crimes because they're worried about possible retribution
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Andy Preston was the independent mayor of Middlesbrough previously and joins me on the line now
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What is going on in Middlesbrough? A criminal, underclass, you might want to call them gangs, you might want to call them organised crime, but actually that kind of flatters them, they're disorganised crime
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These are chaotic groups. When you hear about these organised crime gangs in Middlesbrough and across the country, don't think of the Sopranos or Las Vegas gangsters
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Think about young people in tracksuits living chaotic lives and are largely involved in the low-level distribution of drugs
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but they are potentially dangerous because they're stupid and they're crazy. These people live outside the law
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And a big theme of your report just then, you know, Henry, was about people being scared to report crime
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Now, let me tell you, this is not new. For decades, this has been brewing in Middlesbrough and elsewhere
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There's a criminal underclass that is growing in number, growing in confidence because there are no consequences
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And what happens is when there are no consequences, not only do they feel more bold and threaten and intimidate witnesses
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the witnesses become terrified of ever saying anything. So this thing gets worse and worse until the police
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until the authorities step in and get these people to rapid justice
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I'm aware I'm monologuing here, so apologies. But what I want to get across is that Middlesbrough is a high crime place It always has been It has become the highest crime town or city in England outside of the city of Westminster which is boosted by tourism But it always been up there And you see the same problems actually in Manchester
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Manchester has exactly the same issues, as does Blackpool, Hull and places like that
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But what we've seen, as we've become more empathetic, sympathetic and seeking to rehabilitate people and understand them
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rather than lock them up, we've created more of a problem for ourselves
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I believe in all of those things, those nice things, but the first thing you have to do
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is someone who's a menace in their society, their community, get them locked up
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and then work on empathy, sympathy and rehabilitation. We've got it all wrong
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When you were talking about areas where people are afraid to report crime
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I'll be honest, it's not an area I know particularly well, but I imagine this is the case up and down
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various parts of the country. But are you sort of making the point
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that in parts of Middlesbrough, they are, what, akin to a no-go zone
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in the sense that they're not policed in the regular way? No, I'm not saying that
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Because the police can't get there because it's run by these, you know, sort of scroats or whatever
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Well, you know what, I wouldn't say that, but I'm going to tell you one thing that actually happened
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I used to spend a lot of time... Law and order was a big thing for me as mayor. I wanted to really help support and protect the people
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that feel intimidated by these folks. And I spent a lot of time with the police
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and they were great. But one experience I had, we went to a part of town that had a big crime issue
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A lot of the similar issues we're hearing about now, but perhaps hadn't been escalated to the same level
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And we drove on and we were in a panda car. There was me and a copper and a police community support officer
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And we drove in and we drove into this little cul-de-sac. And immediately the ne'er-do-wells, the criminals started peering over their gates
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They're coming out. And you know what? the look on their faces their demeanour was like what the flipping hell are you doing here this is our street get out and do you know what happened Do you know what happened Henry The panda car turned around and went out And what I telling you there is
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not that the police were necessarily personally scared, but their approach was not to agitate, not to..
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And we need a police force that bosses the streets, that gets out there and scares the criminals
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And I don't think every cop should put their neck on the line every minute of the day, but we need strong action
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the other thing I'll say that's really important for you and your listeners to understand is that
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when justice is slow when it takes ages to get an arrest made and then for it to go to court and get
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sentenced the criminals don't care as much rapid justice matters more than long sentences if they
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think they're going to be dealt with quickly it deters crime but similarly if if witnesses think
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it's going to be handled quickly and effectively they are emboldened to report crime so our system
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where the prisons are full and the courts are backlogged is exactly what is feeding this crisis of confidence
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from the decent working-class public who are scared to report crime. Most people in Middlesbrough are going about their daily lives
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in peace and without any difficulties. Undoubtedly, no, undoubtedly, there are concentrated areas within our wider community
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that are suffering the most horrendous issues. I call them terrorism because people are living in terror
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So I don't underestimate it. Nothing to do, no jobs, no guidance, no consequences turn to crime for a generation of young people
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Tom, some of the comments you just made are highly relevant. There is no simplistic response to this
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It needs a completely in-depth look at those causes. We are doing an awful lot of good work which sadly is being undermined by these events around social cohesion and trying to engage people A lot of the pride in place activity is around young people and trying to provide them with the skill the emotional skills the technical
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and academic skills where appropriate to be employable and have a good and flourishing life
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to simply write a whole cohort of people off is is not going to get us anywhere we need to have a
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much more thoughtful conversation. Do you feel sympathy for those who are carrying this kind of
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stuff out? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. What they did was an absolute outrage. I do know
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that their families will now be wishing they were not in that blasted car. They'll be mourning the
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loss of their loved ones and there's a humanity here. But my concern is about the families of
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those police officers. Call it what you like, whether it's the former mayor of Middlesbrough
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are saying it is the criminal underclass, where it's the MP there describing it as terrorism
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what should the police response therefore be? Is it terrorism? Is there a sort of degenerate criminal underclass
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that is wreaking havoc up and down the country or in places where there is more deprivation
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than there would be in parts of, say, Surrey? I'm not saying Surrey is by means an entirely rich
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and therefore crime-free area. By no means. But in an area where the police force have lost numbers
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and where deprivation is higher, where there are a few jobs, to what extent is it only a matter of time before young people there
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turn to criminality, turn to drug dealing and get themselves involved in this kind of behaviour
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If you live in that part of the world, are you as some are reporting scared to leave your house
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or is all that overblown? 03456060973. And that question of sympathy, to what extent do you feel
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any sympathy for the people running around doing this because they had no other option or there was
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nothing available to them and isn't it sad that there's no money in the system to help divert
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them to various opportunities where they could live a better life. Well, I mean, really
