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Hundreds of protesters waving Palestinian flags gathered in Trafalgar Square to protest the government's plans to ban the group under anti-terror laws.
Home Secretary Yvette Cooper confirmed the decision to ban Palestine Action on Monday, which will make it illegal to be a member of the group.
Many have criticised the drastic measure, claiming it violates the right to protest and free speech.
The protest, which started relatively peacefully, quickly turned chaotic when police stormed into the crowd and detained a number of protesters, after one of them allegedly pushed a police officer.
The Cross Question panel get into an impassioned debate over the Home Secretary's decision.
The panel from left to right: Zoe Gardner, Tobias Ellwood, Simon Marks, Baroness Luciana Berger, Robert Colvile.
Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp
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0:00
Annie, good evening to you. What's your question for the cross-question panel
0:03
Oh, good evening, Simon. Is it right to prescribe the group Palestine Action as a terrorist group
0:09
for trying to stop the killing of the people of Gaza, something that our government should be doing
0:15
and is it the slippery slope for our civil liberties? Luciana Berger, a question, of course, relating to Yvette Cooper's announcement today
0:23
that she's going to prescribe Palestine Action, who had hundreds of protesters on the streets of London
0:29
hearing that news as they were demonstrating today. Is this the right thing to do
0:36
And is it not, as Annie is suggesting there, the thin end of a thick wedge
0:41
I think the right to peaceful protest is the cornerstone of our democracy
0:46
And actually the overwhelming majority of people that wish to protest on anything in this country do so in a peaceful way
0:53
That is very distinct to the actions of Palestine Action. And Palestine Action had been involved
0:58
in a sustained, aggressive, broad campaign that undermines the rule of British law
1:03
and undermines Britain's national security. They've engaged in 356 direct attacks to the tune of £55 million worth of damage
1:12
And underneath our Terrorism Act, they've met all the conditions, which are very tightly laid out
1:19
which means that they are now, and have been, as we've heard from the Home Secretary earlier today, prescribed
1:23
Are existing criminal laws not sufficient to go after alleged acts of violence and intimidation by members of Palestine Action
1:36
Why do they have to be prescribed as a terrorist organisation in order to take legal action against them
1:42
There's a number of different factors. It's the fact that they've engaged in millions of pounds of damage over several years
1:48
and particularly they've escalated their activity since the start of last year. The impact and the aim of their actions has been intended
1:55
the intention has been designed to weaken our national security. And we've seen workers being intimidated in sites in Glasgow, in Bristol, in Kent
2:04
right across the country, people have been intimidated on their way into work
2:08
when these attacks have taken place. The vast majority of people that support the Palestinian cause do so in a peace-abiding way
2:16
The distinction with this group in particular is the escalation of their attacks, the severity of their attacks and their frequency
2:22
We've seen over 100 people convicted of crimes connected to this group
2:26
And I think it's absolutely right that this group has now been prescribed. So you would argue they are distinct in terms of their conduct
2:31
from just stop oil or Extinction Rebellion? In terms of the activities that have been, particularly in the last two years, yes
2:40
Zoe Gardner. I mean, absolutely terrifying to hear that. I think we really need to take a step back from the concept
2:48
whether we agree or not with their aims and ask ourselves is this terrorism is the intention of
2:54
this to sow terror absolutely not absolutely not and this is not even the thin end anymore of that wedge I think this is a serious threat to our civil liberties I think it is quite clear and if you would just endorse me for a second
3:12
I did make a very short list of a couple of other instances where this same type of action of attempting to disarm RAF jets
3:20
has been taken in the past, in 1996, for women vandalised in an RAF jet
3:26
preventing its travel to Indonesia for complicity in the East Timor genocide
3:31
They were found not guilty. In 2003, activists sabotaged fuel tankers to disrupt US war planes reaching Iraq
3:38
It was Keir Starmer who was the lawyer who defended them on the basis that they were acting for the greater good to prevent war crimes from taking place
3:47
And in 2017, two activists attempted to disarm typhoon jets to prevent them reaching Saudi Arabia and to take part in war crimes in Yemen
3:54
and they were again found not guilty on the basis that they were attempting to prevent war crimes
3:59
which is the true intention, actually, of this group. It is not their intention to intimidate or to damage national security
4:05
It is their intention to prevent war crimes from taking place, which are taking place. And while we can agree that they took the matters into their own hands
4:13
they knew they were committing criminal damage, they knew they were committing vandalism
4:17
and they should be charged under those terms. The idea that they are terrorists and that I, now for expressing my support for them, could face serious terrorist charges up to 14 years in jail is a terrifying escalation and abuse of state power
4:33
And we should not stand for it for a second. Luciana Berger, your response to that
4:37
Again, I look at the actions and it's not these not one-off events
4:42
This is the event that has been cited as being the reality
4:46
But the Home Secretary did actually, I mean, she spoke about Bryce Norton and last week's event there
4:53
but she also listed a whole litany of other... The targets of Palestine action over the last four years have included charities, universities, government buildings
5:05
Jewish-owned businesses, financial firms, lots of smaller companies in the supply chain
5:11
who don't have the resources to pay for the thousands and thousands of pounds of security
5:15
that are now required for all these businesses. And the Brys Norton attack last week
5:21
this is the base that sees 6,000 military and civilian personnel work at
5:27
We've seen £25 million of damage at that site alone. But in all the examples I cited
5:33
there's a million levels of damage. They were part of protest movements. They were part of groups and they were not frustrated
5:38
They weren't part of a protest movement. that's seen the frequency and severity of attacks
5:43
and seen over 100 people convicted of their crimes. Just Stop Oil is committing vandalism on the same scale
5:48
and breaking the law on the same scale and yet you don't think that they should be prescribed
5:53
as a terrorist organisation. Why? Because what they're committing is criminal damage. Can I have a compromise here, which is Robert Colville
5:58
with a compromise. I don't think they're terrorists. I do think they're wankers. I mean, just, you know..
6:03
That's totally fine, but this is a serious matter. I grew up three miles away from R Royce Norton And if you were stupid enough to try and hop the fence you would have expected to be shot by the security guards And I think there quite a lot of people wondering why the hell that didn happen this time
6:17
I mean, they broke into a high security military... Are you advocating that they should have been shot
6:22
It's a military installation guarded by armed soldiers. Are you advocating that they should have been shot
6:27
There's quite a lot of... What is this? What kind of conversation are we in? We should be shooting protesters on site
6:32
There's signs around, oh well, you should have expected to be shot. I'm not sure the compromise, Robert, is working
6:38
And for those of you watching this, as opposed to listening to it
6:43
we apologise for one of the words that Robert used in his rather colourful description there
6:48
Tobias Elwood, help us out here. Firstly, on the operational security. That sort of breach should not take place in today's day and age
6:56
I mean, it's an extraordinary security. To get through the perimeter fence and then make it onto the tarmac
7:01
the QRF, the Rapid Reaction Force that's there, should have closed this down one way or another in a non-lethal way
7:07
We should not be shooting people at that point. I'm not advocating for saying that
7:11
There were armed guards at that. And there are big, big questions. We've had drones going up and down runways and so forth
7:17
Our air defence and our security of our infrastructure needs massively resuming
7:22
There's no doubt about that because we're now in grey zone warfare. On this piece, and I share something which is personal to me
7:30
but it places into context what I'm about to say. My brother was killed by al-Qaeda. He was in the wrong place and in the Bali bombing. And so I take with interest every time we prescribe an organization. And I did look at this and I did wonder, did this meet their criteria? There's no doubt about it, that this is criminality. But is it the same as Boko Haram? Is it the same as al-Shabaab? Is it the same as ISIS? Is it the same as al-Qaeda
8:00
I don't know the details. I know that it's absolutely criminality. But just stop oil
8:06
I mean, there'll be many people listening who will say, why wasn't more done? Why weren't there more powers to close those down
8:12
How can they possibly allow motorways to stop? You know, we should have more robust rules and an ability to be able to wrap these up and label these groups so they are forced to disperse if you're caught as a member
8:26
But not calling them terrorists. I still have, I'm happy to learn more
8:30
Maybe there's some details, some class-side information that I'm not aware of
8:35
But as I think you're implying, it's very grey here that we're using terrorist legislation in this particular case
8:42
May I just make a wider point? Because I'm very glad that you do come down to that sensible position
8:47
But I do think that there's a kind of complacency here on show that is on show in our wider politics as well
8:54
it's a sort of a reversion to the status quo over and over again there is a hostility
9:00
towards protest methods here on display the necessity the desperate necessity in our world today is that
9:08
we change it, it is not working we are burning it people are not gaining the social contract that was promised them our economic system is creating billionaires and the rest of us struggle It is not working And it is necessary because of this complacency
9:23
that is on display here, that people take protest measures, even ones that are more extreme
9:27
even ones that are criminal. And they should... I think... Even ones that are criminal
9:33
Even in cases, it is normal and part of the tradition of protests in this country
9:37
that sometimes you break the law in order to achieve your ends. And I agree that..
9:41
You said it's normal. It's not normal. It shouldn't be normal. I think people are increasingly fed up
9:46
of the public realm being degraded, of having all these hassles in our daily life
9:51
because some utter, I'm not going to use the word again, wander around throwing paint on
9:56
going to the National Gallery throwing paint on stuff. And there aren't robust rules to close those down
10:01
The planet is not being saved. They're just making everyone's lives work. No, you're right. The planet is not being saved
10:05
It is being destroyed by people who are gaining power, who are gaining wealth in this system
10:11
and the system does need to change and these actions are part of a larger wave of that discontent
10:17
and this complacency will will continue to destroy this supposed world order that we that we pretend
10:24
to adhere to because we do not respect the fact that things need to change and people need to
10:29
protest okay let me give luciana berger the last word on this particular question i don't think
10:33
that can ever be the justification for violence and aggression and that's what we're seeing in
10:37
this group we've seen countless episodes so i said there's been 356 direct actions of which a
10:44
number of them have directly physically impacted on people but this is criminality when it does it
10:50
bleed into terrorism that's the question it's also the manual that they provide there's a manual that
10:55
they've created that's available to all of their uh members or whatever they may be across the
10:59
country now active in all of our policing areas 45 policing areas of the uk they've got a manual
11:06
which provides links to a map of specific targets across the UK with direct instructions about how individual people
11:13
as well as organisations, both government, financial organisations, charities, universities and whatnot should be targeted
11:20
And I think it's a very... I was targeted in Bournemouth. 80 mob came outside of my house in Bournemouth and they were there
11:28
Not a single arrest was made. Now, they weren't a terrorist operation at all
11:32
but they were coordinated and they came down to my village outside of my house and we were there for about four hours and we just had to tolerate it and
11:40
that's my point is that many people will just wonder why on earth are we allowing criminality
11:45
to take place in that sense because that was direct harassment my children did you feel
11:50
did you feel threatened by that personally because of my background in the army then i sort of rode
11:55
with it but my family were absolutely horrified and the villagers and they've never seen anything like it palestinian flags absolutely everywhere and the the farmers couldn't actually move through
12:04
The police then had to barricade our house to prevent entry and so forth
12:09
Yes, it was intimidating for me, but it was certainly very scary for those people who never witnessed anything like this
12:15
OK. I don't think we're going to find unanimity of opinion around the table on the issue, but we've certainly aired everybody's views
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