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Trump's still making a mockery of observable reality | James O’Brien - The Whole Show
Jul 25, 2026
This is a catch-up version of James O'Brien's live, daily show on LBC Radio from the 24th of July, 2026. 00:00 – UK's policy of allowing U.S. use of military bases unchanged by Burnham - should Burnham tell the Americans to sling their hook, and what would happen if he did? 49:47 – Andy Burnham cuts pub business rates to save ‘working-class culture’ - What is working class culture? 01:39:09 – Middle-aged women fuel ADHD drug surge 02:53:26 – Full Disclosure: Tom Kerridge Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #jamesobrien #politics #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
Three minutes after ten is the time. If I had a pound for every message I've received in the last 24 hours telling me that you can no longer hear a certain word without automatically in your own head hearing the same word repeated in a northern accent, then I would have quite a lot of pounds
0:18
I don't know. It depends entirely on Keith's mood whether or not that happens today. You'll have to stay tuned to find out. I've got no control over it. I don't know. I'll say it and something might happen, something might not happen
0:27
If you don't know what I'm talking about, well, I need a letter off your mum by the end of break today to explain why you weren't listening yesterday
0:37
I mean, why do we need to bomb Iran, as Mark has already pointed out in one of the first texts of the morning
0:43
Because their military has been completely obliterated. Donald Trump told us. And that is actually, I mean, it's amusing if you can sort of find anything amusing in the context of carnage like this
0:56
But it's also true, isn't it? I mean, it's a mark. Why have we stopped talking about it
1:02
Do you think? Why have we stopped talking about it? I mean, to be fair, this is not a unique phenomenon
1:10
We talked a heck of a lot about Ukraine in the early days, particularly when we were throwing open our doors to Ukrainian refugees
1:17
and helping them without much support from the government, to be honest with you
1:22
but the fine British traditions of hospitality and warmth were being extended to our Ukrainian friends
1:28
on an extraordinary and rather inspiring scale. And we talked a lot
1:32
We talked in quite a lot of detail about military advances and military setbacks
1:38
We consulted great friends of the program, professors of war studies and the like
1:45
and it was genuinely fascinating. And then it wasn't. it's i you know we're all human beings aren't we the only two things that i think have sustained
1:57
phone in after phone in after phone in during our time together are brexit and covid because they had
2:02
such long tails if you like that they they carried on and they affected us directly which is of course
2:08
the most crucial element of this conversation for good or for ill wars in um in ukraine or in the
2:15
Middle East do not affect us directly on our doorstep. They affect us directly, of course
2:21
in lots and lots of other ways, or I suppose indirectly. But a fatigue kicks in, doesn't it
2:29
A fatigue kicks in. And I think it's logical, and I think it's, you know, inevitable. It's not
2:36
necessarily helpful. The situation doesn't become less important or less urgent, just because you've
2:42
talked about it a hundred times but it becomes less what interesting talkable what word would
2:48
you use i don't know you get and and then of course you've got the added dimension of trump
2:53
just making a mockery of observable reality so normally you could at least report upon the facts
2:59
but if the president of the united states of america treats facts like dogs treat lampposts
3:05
then you can't even do that really because as we've observed a million times on this program
3:11
you have to report what he says. You have to report what somebody occupying the office of the President of the United States of America says
3:18
And we are still not in a place where most people are comfortable adding to the report of what he said
3:23
By the way, he's almost always lying. And when he's not lying, he's acting out of epic self-interest, and he's often doing both
3:31
We haven't done it. We have not recalibrated international conversations to accommodate the scale of Donald Trump's moral depravity
3:39
We can't. I say we can't. I don't know if you can keep access to him while reporting accurately on what and who he is
3:48
So it's not funny anymore. It wasn't hilarious when we first started doing it
3:53
But do you remember when we brought Craig David into the conversation
4:00
Seems a little odd if you don't know why. But, you know, on a Monday, Donald Trump would tell you that he was about to bomb Iran into the Stone Age
4:08
on a Tuesday he'd tell you that Iran was so frightened they were about to sign the mother of all ceasefires
4:15
Note to you, brackets, it could not by definition be as effective as the deal
4:20
that was signed by Barack Obama, which Donald Trump tore up in his first administration
4:25
But, you know, pesky facts, eh? So on a Monday he's threatening to bomb Iran into the Stone Age
4:32
On a Tuesday they're about to sign a ceasefire because he's such an epic diplomat and negotiator
4:37
that he's pulling off the mother of all deals. On a Wednesday, they launch an attack anyway
4:42
and completely obliterate the Iranian military. So the Iranian military by Wednesday has been completely destroyed
4:47
We don't need to worry about it anymore. On Thursday, the threat that's posed by the completely obliterated Iranian military
4:54
is so acute that he's gone back to threatening to bomb them into oblivion
5:00
And then on a Friday, he's telling us again that Iran is about to sign a ceasefire
5:04
and it will be the best deal ever and it's the best thing you've ever seen. They went for a drink on Saturday and chilled on Sunday
5:10
So you've got this extraordinary cyclical nonsense which possibly explains elements of the fatigue
5:21
possibly explains why the laminate I have in front of me... Do you remember how excited I was
5:25
when Eleanor laminated the Chilcott checklist for me? Because it was like a skeleton key
5:29
to unlocking a really complicated moment in British military history. It was a really complicated..
5:35
And you can tell how complicated it was because an awful lot of clever people didn't get it
5:39
They didn't understand it. Either because of footballification or political blinkers that they'd put on
5:45
or because of their lack of access to objective ysis, or perhaps because of the effectiveness of propaganda
5:54
Spoiler alert, propaganda does not only work on stupid people. It can work on almost everybody
5:59
In fact, I think that's probably not true, is it? I think it can work on absolutely everybody
6:04
if it's done well enough, if it's done right. But the Chilcot checklist told us what we should do, what a prime minister should do
6:11
what a government should do in the event of contemplating military action against a sovereign, a foreign sovereign power
6:19
And it didn't fit Donald Trump's request to help him bomb Iran unprovoked
6:25
to allow US planes to take off from UK air bases to launch unprovoked attacks upon Iran
6:35
And unprovoked is a technical term. militarily unprovoked. The Iranian regime is, of course, hideous, and of course it murders its own
6:42
citizens in their droves, but it remains sovereign, and it remains foreign, and therefore it is military
6:50
actions against, well, I don't want to preempt the second bit of this picture, but it was an
6:56
unprovoked attack against Iran that it appears Donald Trump was bounced into by Benjamin Netanyahu
7:02
with no thought to the consequences or no understanding of the role that the Strait of Hormuz has played
7:07
in Iranian geopolitics for generations, if not forever, actually. He says boats were invented
7:14
Not that Iran would have been the name of the nation that occupied that particular part of the globe when boats were invented
7:21
So it was correct. Run you through those ten things Number one vision Why do we care What does this mean for British interests What are the risks of acting or doing nothing including in the longer term What is different now Number two ysis What is happening now
7:36
What are you learning about events on the ground? Have assumptions been exposed to ytical tools or external challenge
7:43
Number three, scenarios. What might happen next? Look at options, scenarios, consequences. Ask what could flow from these
7:51
And then what should we do? Design your options collaboratively? Build them on challenge
7:56
Have you presented ministers with clear information on risks, opportunities and costs
8:00
Then you've got the legal implications. Now, this is not a straitjacket
8:04
How do we ensure action is lawful? Spoiler alert, sometimes they don't, but they should, always
8:10
What is the wider legal context? You're talking about a war in Iran that was essentially spawned by a man
8:16
Benjamin Netanyahu, who can't visit most countries in the world without being arrested on suspicion of war crimes
8:22
So you can either say, well, that proves that the law doesn't matter, or you can say that proves why it's so important to make sure
8:27
that any actions undertaken militarily by our government are lawful. You look at the policy implications, you look at international legal basis
8:37
then you look at policy and strategy, you ask yourself what does success look like, then you do resource, what do we need to deliver, planning and doing
8:44
how should we do it, policy performance, how will you monitor performance, and evaluation, is the policy working
8:48
So when Donald Trump invited Keir Starmer to wash his hands in the blood of Iranian schoolgirls, Keir Starmer said no
8:59
The Chilcot checklist did not deliver a rationale or a justification for allowing US bombers to bomb Iran unprovoked
9:12
And then Iran started attacking our allies, our treaty-based allies. Our, I don't know whether the correct word to use here is legally
9:22
but certainly morally and diplomatically binding treaties. I mean, the world is kind of kept from the precipice
9:29
from the brink of oblivion by treaties and negotiations. I mean, they fail sometimes
9:36
First World War was essentially a domino fall, wasn't it? A succession of treaties kicking in as a consequence of a butterfly flapping its wings in Austria
9:46
And the next thing you know, the whole world is at war. But these treaties hold us together
9:50
They are a network of obligations that keep the world safer than it would otherwise be
9:56
Notice I don't say safe. I say safer than it would otherwise be
10:00
And when Iran started attacking our allies, bombs started falling on Dubai, Qatar, elsewhere
10:09
then everything changed. And attacks upon the weapons being used to attack our allies
10:19
became something that Keir Starmer could countenance and arguably had to countenance
10:25
When Iran starts attacking our allies look, make no bones about it
10:30
in retaliation for the unprovoked attacks launched by Benjamin Netanyahu and Donald Trump
10:36
but Iran then started launching attacks against their allies, and they are also our allies
10:42
then all of the arithmetic changes. All of the calculations change. And Keir Starmer, correctly, is never more loyally
10:51
than when he went through the Chilcot checklist twice in 24 hours
10:55
and arrived at two different answers to two different questions. I'd say 80% of the media coverage didn't understand that nuance
11:03
Look, not everybody is as ridiculous as Dick Littlejohn in the Daily Mail writing columns about how ashamed he is to be British
11:09
and how he wishes that Donald Trump was our president and how it's disgusting
11:13
I don't think he's written about it since. Even he would appear as capable of shame
11:18
But that's a bad example because very few brains are as boiled as that
11:23
But even people who are relatively well-informed and curious and interesting and possessed of moral compasses
11:29
would not have understood that Keir Starmer was answering two very different questions
11:34
The question of whether or not we allow US bombers to attack Iran unprovoked
11:39
is not the same question as whether or not we allow US bombers based in Britain to attack Iran
11:44
when Iran is attacking our allies is a completely different question. A completely different question
11:53
It was in Sarajevo, not Austria, that the butterfly flapped its wings at the beginning of the First World War
11:57
My apologies. Nobody's perfect. And that brings us to Andy Burnham, who has essentially inherited this decision, which, under my reading, is, I mean, tragically inevitable
12:13
Unless we tear up our treaties, unless we abandon our allies, we have to continue to allow US operations to be launched, defensive operations, which is, you know, a tricky term for some people because you're attacking
12:32
But, you know, the attack, right, is the best form of defence. We all remember that from school
12:36
so the UK has to continue to allow the US to launch defensive operations from British bases
12:41
hosting American personnel and aircraft while refusing to cooperate in offensive operations against Iran
12:47
Listen, that's tricky. I've explained it to you as best that I can. The difference is they can attack something
12:52
that is being used to attack our allies. They can't attack something that isn't
12:58
And Andy Burnham is continuing with that policy. I mean, he may not have to
13:04
but if he chose not to, he would be tearing up treaties and abandoning allies, right
13:09
Wouldn't he? That policy, BBC reports, has not been altered by new Prime Minister Andy Burnham
13:15
who was notified last week that a decision had been taken to extend the agreement with the US
13:21
So you go back to March, when permission was given to the US for it to use British bases
13:28
including RAF Fairford in Gloucestershire and Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean
13:32
to target Iranian military infrastructure infrastructure that was being used to attack
13:36
Gulf countries and vessels in the Strait of Hormuz. And it doesn't
13:44
feel as right today as it did in March to me. I'm not going to lie to you. I don't know why
13:48
I fully understand all of the things that I've just explained to you. The primacy of treaties
13:52
the importance of diplomacy, the loyalty to allies, all of these factors intellectually
14:01
are clearly still in play. But it's feeling shabbier? I don't know what word you would use. You know, the
14:13
idea that the United Kingdom is at risk now, because Iran has said that Fairford and elsewhere
14:19
are, if you like, legitimate targets, their phrase, not mine. So we've painted a target
14:24
upon an airfield in Gloucestershire because of Benjamin Netanyahu's narcissistic self-protection and Donald Trump's intellectual bankruptcy
14:35
And yet everything I've said to you so far today is true, including, I think, the last two bits
14:40
They're probably a little bit more open to challenge, but essentially the Iranian regime
14:45
the despicable Iranian regime, is describing parts of this country, albeit that they're currently occupied by US personnel
14:54
parts of this country are legitimate targets because ultimately when you trace things back to first principles because Benjamin Netanyahu wants to protect his own skin by launching war after war after war
15:13
and he managed to persuade an extremely stupid man called Donald Trump that it would be over very quickly
15:19
whether or not netanyahu knew that he was blowing smoke rings i don't know and it doesn't matter and
15:26
i don't particularly care he couldn't do it they're not going to get rid of the iranian regime
15:32
oh that was the other thing as well that i missed out from the craig david ysis the regime will
15:37
be completely destroyed the regime will be completely removed that is not going to happen
15:42
if that was going to happen it would have happened by now they've spent just shy 40 billion bucks
15:46
already on this. American soldiers, American blood spilt, not to mention, of course, Iranian
15:50
civilians and those poor girls in the school that, again, shamefully, we kind of stopped
15:56
talking about. So why does it feel, well, I suppose that's not the right question to
16:05
ask you because that reflects upon my own position. I don't know why I feel less. I
16:13
mean everything i've said is true treaties and allies responsibilities and commitments are what
16:21
have kicked in the chilcott checklist has been fulfilled it has been observed
16:26
and yet it feels as if we are in unnecessary danger as as a consequence of continuing with
16:36
this policy is it just because it's so obviously a mess whereas at the very beginning we thought
16:43
that the finish line would pop up sooner rather than later, and therefore the slight moral tension
16:49
between these two positions that Keir Starmer adopted was something that would be alleviated by time
16:54
As time passed, it would become less relevant. It would become completely irrelevant because the war would end
17:01
But somehow the combination of Donald Trump's abject idiocy and Benjamin Netanyahu's narcissism
17:09
and of course the tireless, the indefatigability of the hideous Iranian regime
17:16
have conspired to create a situation in which Iran really want things to carry on
17:20
because it's strengthening their hand at almost every turn. Trump's too frightened to pull out despite claiming victory every other Tuesday
17:27
and I don't know enough really about Netanyahu's motivation except that the minute that he's not at war or the minute that he's not in power
17:36
there's a very real chance that he'll be in jail. He hasn't even managed to keep himself out of court by bombing Iran
17:44
So the question I have for you is whether or not you can..
17:50
Can you thread this needle? Can you argue that we shouldn't be allowing US missions
17:57
to be launched from UK territory, even if they are, quotes, defensive, end quote
18:01
because it's no longer in our national interest? Can you argue that without also arguing
18:06
that we should set fire to treaties, obligations and alliances. I hate these kind of conversations
18:14
Or not conversations, I love the conversations, I hate the topics. How would that go
18:19
Hate the players, love the game? Or love the players, hate the game? I don't know. I hate it because there is no answer to this
18:25
Just insights. And I really want to hear yours today. I really want to hear yours
18:30
Maybe you can do it better than I can. You can make a case for abandoning alliances and treaties
18:36
and international obligations because they are being triggered by the actions of two pretty hideous regimes
18:46
And when I use the word regime, I'm referring to the people leading countries, not to countries
18:51
So the Israeli regime and the United States regime are pretty hideous by most objective measures
18:57
up to and including international law. and to have our international obligations
19:02
triggered by regimes that treat international law with contempt maybe creates enough wiggle room for a politician like Andy Burnham
19:11
who does seem prepared to challenge precedence and status quo. I mean, what would happen if Andy Burnham came out and said
19:22
we're not going to let the United States launch missions against Iran from US airbases anymore
19:28
You need to be better qualified than I am to answer that question. And also, you probably can't
19:34
because your training would give you an answer to that question based upon there being a vaguely sensible occupant of the Oval Office
19:42
You can't really make sense of anything in a world where Donald Trump is in charge
19:46
It is like trying to nail jelly to the wall, or jello, for my American friends
19:51
or herd cats. You know, the network of obligation that keeps us all safe
19:56
doesn't exist anymore. Donald Trump set fire to it within minutes of getting into the Oval Office for the second time
20:01
So you can say what would happen. So anyway, there we go. Should Burnham tell the Americans to sling their hook
20:09
And what would happen if he did? 0-3-4-5-6-0-6-0-9-7-3. I can't get a finger on public opinion
20:17
I'm going to find some polling. My inbox tells me, and has done for a very long time
20:22
that huge numbers of the British public do not want any involvement whatsoever
20:26
whatsoever in Trump and Netanyahu's disgusting war. It doesn't mean you've got anything but contempt
20:30
for the disgusting Iranian regime, but why on earth would we be endangering British territory
20:36
albeit obliquely, it's unlikely that Iran can launch anything that's going to do us any harm
20:41
but unlikely, not impossible. Why on earth would we be doing that
20:48
Answer, because these treaties and obligations were enshrined when the United States of America
20:57
was led by honourable men. And it isn't anymore. Phone lines are open
21:03
I don't think I've got anything else to say. I mean, it's one of those things I could go on for an hour
21:07
but I want help now. I want insights. I want illumination. Simple question
21:11
Should Andy Burnham reverse Keir Starmer's decision to support American attacks on Iran
21:19
when they were attacking areas that had launched attacks on our allies
21:25
And if he did that, what would happen? 0345 6060 973. Hit the numbers now, you will get through
21:34
James O'Brien on LBC. And of course, on a personal note, the problem I have now
21:40
is that when this started, we could talk about it for two hours uninterrupted
21:44
We could take calls from people with personal involvement, personal connections, insight, education, relevant degrees, PhD theses
21:50
and something's gone out, the tide's gone out. This is, or last night, was the 13th consecutive night
21:56
of strikes against targets in Iran. Those are targets which Donald Trump has claimed repeatedly
22:02
had already been destroyed and obliterated. It is absurd and obscene that this is happening on our watch, as it were
22:11
And yet, that sense that there's no point talking about it because nothing ever changes
22:15
It was almost impossible to resist. One thing I should clarify slightly, because this isn't my area of expertise at all
22:21
the sort of treaties I'm talking about are more of a mid century convention What you talking about with regard to countries like Jordan and Oman and Israel of course and then in the next tier down you got Saudi Arabia Qatar Bahrain Kuwait
22:36
you've got defensive, economic and strategic ties with these nations. So in Jordan and Oman
22:42
historically our closest diplomatic partners in the region, you've got deep bilateral ties and
22:48
defence training. Israel remains, for good or for ill, a major security partner, particularly when it
22:54
comes to intelligence sharing and countering regional threats. So an attack upon these
22:58
countries is, in a sense, an attack upon us, which is why the previous Prime Minister could
23:03
justify the use of British bases occupied by American forces to attack the positions that
23:09
were attacking our allies. So I shouldn't probably have used the word treaties. You're looking at
23:14
extensive military support. You're looking at air defence systems provided by us in Saudi
23:20
in Qatar, in Bahrain, in Kuwait. You're looking at joint operations like the Typhoon Squadron in Qatar
23:26
And you're looking at the stationing of troops and assets in the region. So these are, I think it's probably safer to say
23:32
profoundly important alliances in the tinderbox of the world. And maintaining those alliances
23:39
observing those alliances, curating those alliances, means that we have to give America a position
23:46
to launch attacks upon positions that are attacking those allies. Ah, I'm doing it again
23:51
So there's the ineluctable logic of Keir Starmer's reasoning and Andy Burnham's current position
23:58
It's the ineluctable logic of it. Because our allies are being attacked
24:05
albeit by a country that was bombed unprovoked by Netanyahu and Trump
24:11
but our allies are now being attacked, we have to be part of the retaliation to the retaliation
24:16
I love the word ineluctable. I hope I'm using it correctly. There is a faultless logic to that position
24:23
So why does it feel so wrong? And if you want, if you will allow me to personalise it
24:29
why does it feel so wrong to me today? I was quite a lonely batsman out at the crease
24:35
explaining the importance of the Chilcot checklist when some people didn't get it
24:39
some people pretended not to get it, and some people were never going to get it. But Starmer got it right
24:45
And it's still right, technically, intellectually, so why does it feel so wrong
24:54
0345 6060 973 is the number you need. I promise I'll take some calls
25:01
Well, I mean, I can't if you don't ring me, but we'll be okay if you don't, but you should
25:05
on 0345 6060 973, after Dominic Ellis brings you the latest headlines
25:11
James O'Brien on LBC. 33 is the time, so it is technically, procedurally
25:17
intellectually correct? Why does it feel so wrong? In ways that for me
25:23
and you are almost certainly different from me, at least I hope you are, that are very different from when Keir Starmer
25:29
puts himself in precisely the position that Andy Burnham has now inherited
25:33
Mo is in Birmingham. Mo, what do you want to say? I'll be honest with you, James
25:38
there are so many different facets to this discussion. You could start down one path
25:43
and go down a completely different route. Well, I think I did. It's a miracle my monologue was so short, quite frankly
25:49
and I didn't take a call until 10.34. Yeah. OK, I think this war is illegal
25:56
and I'm going to start this discussion based upon that premise, and I think and I believe that this government also thinks
26:03
that the actual premise of this war, the actual ignition of this war, was an illegal act
26:08
Well, that would be Chilcot Checklist 5. Would it have been lawful for us to join in
26:14
the original unprovoked attacks upon Iran. And they concluded that, well, they didn't do it
26:20
so we can speculate healthily that they probably concluded it wouldn't have been lawful to join in
26:25
in that first instance. So, yeah, so we've got this premise now
26:30
I'm going to be cynical, but I'm going to use my cynicism based upon historical fact occurrences
26:38
that have occurred. Illegality, in my point of view, only matters if you're on the losing side
26:44
Yes. OK. You know, that's how it's been, OK? Even if you include the Second World War or whatever
26:55
if you're on the losing side, you face the full force of justice
27:01
If you win, you could get away with almost anything. You're just providing a variation on the old adage
27:08
that history is written by the victors, aren't you? So, yes. OK
27:11
Now, Andy Burnham needs to ask himself the question, is America going to win this war or not
27:22
Wow, you are being cynical. And what's the answer? I mean, I think..
27:31
Ever since February the 28th, I have not seen one action the Americans have conducted
27:37
and the Israelis have conducted which suggests that they are going to win
27:42
And they've done everything, in my point of view, that has made that conclusion less likely
27:52
For one, Trump has never defined clearly to his own public what victory looks like
28:00
Well, he's claimed it. So he's simultaneously claimed it a dozen times
28:04
while also, as you point out, not telling them what it is. So it was regime change originally, do you remember
28:10
And now the Ayatollah, the dead Ayatollah, has been replaced by his own son
28:15
Sure, it was about stopping his nuclear programme, and now only a day or two ago
28:19
he talks about bombing newly discovered nuclear sites. And also, who cares if they end up with some nuclear dust
28:26
because they won't be able to do much with it. I mean, it's impossible to exaggerate
28:30
and I still get the odd message, not many, I presume old Dick Littlejohn at the Daily Mail is one of them
28:35
not sending me messages, but still clinging to the notion that there's any sense whatsoever
28:39
in listening to a single word that Trump says because he says the polar opposite at 10 o'clock
28:44
of what he said at 9.59. So, I mean, it is insane to do this. I was speaking to my mum about it
28:50
and I described it. It's like he's going through a whole packet of Chinese fortune cookies
28:54
Yeah. And literally he reads off a new message every time he consumes one
28:59
And the markets respond, and the troops are engaged accordingly, and allies have to dance to the tune
29:04
of the last message he read out, but it's a polar opposite. to the next message he's going
29:09
I mean, it is insane. That's the only word for it. But that's where we are now
29:13
That's what's going on. And look, Andy Burnham is a logical man
29:18
I'd like to give him that benefit of the doubt. Yes. He cannot make a really important strategic decision
29:25
on the musings of someone who is acting completely illogically. And probably illegally
29:34
And illegally. Okay. Okay, so as I said, does he think he's going to win the war
29:41
And I'll be honest with you, there is nothing in my heart, my mind tells me that America is going to win this war
29:49
And what we're stuck in at the moment is Trump knows that or the people behind him know that, but he refuses to crystallize
30:00
...to lies the position, hence why he believes that escalation is his only solution
30:06
But it's an escalation to nothing. I'm really enjoying listening to you, and your mum's very lucky to have the benefits of such a big brain at her permanent disposal
30:19
but you haven't actually, apart from telling me that he needs to decide who's going to win
30:23
and I can work out what the next bit of this is, but you haven't addressed the jeopardy and peril of abandoning alliances
30:33
and long histories of cooperation. For us to pull out now, and it will continue
30:40
is to send messages to countries like Jordan and Oman and Israel
30:47
which finds itself in a rather different category to all the other allies in the region, of course
30:52
Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Bahrain, Kuwait. It sends a message to them that we are not quite as trusted an ally
30:58
as we were 12 months ago, doesn't it? I think the word is not trusted
31:05
Reliable? Doubting? In my opinion, it's a matter of news. I'm going to be now blunt
31:11
There is nothing in Britain's armoury that can do anything in regards to influencing this war
31:19
We stopped them using Diego Garcia. or Fairfield, it would have an impact
31:24
but not an influence. It wouldn't... It's not going to change the arithmetic of victory or loss
31:32
No, it wouldn't. And ultimately, the risks of getting involved and potentially suffering blowback on it
31:40
and even if we do get involved, due to the absolute capricious nature of our American ally
31:47
because of Trump, who one day will be congratulating us for getting involved, and then the next day
31:53
he slagged us off. Yeah, this is really true, attacking us for not doing enough
31:58
And as you speak, I just need to share some breaking news. The United Nations is urging, as you speak, Moe
32:04
that's a coincidence, by the way, it's not your fault, 6,000 sailors currently stranded in the Strait of Hormuz
32:10
The United Nations is urging their evacuation. How many times has Donald Trump announced that it's open now
32:15
Well, as I said, it's... So I guess what we're nudging towards
32:20
is a question of whether or not the historical and diplomatic precedents
32:28
that form the network of obligations that keep us away from the worst-case scenarios
32:33
internationally and domestically, whether or not Donald Trump's moral depravity and idiocy
32:39
actually changed the game sufficiently for Andy Burnham to say, yeah, look, I know the Chilcot checklist
32:45
and I know the history, and I know the importance of these alliances
32:49
but we are handcuffing ourselves to uncontrollable and illogical rage
32:59
We are handcuffing ourselves to a kind of showerhead. You know when the showerhead falls out of the bracket
33:04
and it just bounces around on the floor and you've got no control over who it sprays or where it goes
33:09
So these historical precedents do not apply because of the absurdity and the insanity of the situation
33:17
and Trump and Netanyahu can share responsibility for the absurdity and the insanity of the current situation
33:23
Yes. Yeah, OK. If he was a more consistent man, if we knew for sure 100% that, you know what
33:32
we're going to help him, he's going to win, we are going to get a piece of the victory dividend
33:39
on the back of it all, OK? But he can't do that, can he? But he can't do that
33:42
And idiots can believe him or cult members can believe him and Dick Littlejohn can write a column about what a great idea it is, this settlement
33:51
But to do that, you have to be willfully ignorant. You have to be willfully amoral
33:56
You have to completely ignore the evidence of your own eyes and ears and pretend that this time things will be different
34:01
For sure. And there is nothing that guarantees to me that we are going to benefit
34:08
No, and that is cynical. Or pragmatic, if you prefer. Cynical is a dirtier word than pragmatic, isn't it
34:13
But you're just describing pragmatism. And it's a new pragmatism born of new circumstances
34:18
And the new circumstances are Trump and Netanyahu really should not be followed into anything despite historical alliances
34:27
And when there are new regimes in place or new administrations in place in Israel and the United States of America, then the old order can be restored
34:35
But it wouldn't be Andy Burnham that was tearing up the old order by saying, for example, to the King of Jordan
34:40
We're not going to let them use our bases anymore because we just think it has to end
34:45
and we're going to do everything we can to make it end sooner rather than later, I think
34:50
Thank you, Moe, not least for letting everybody hear someone else's voice
34:55
other than mine. Peter's in Gillingham. Peter, what do you think? Good morning
34:59
I agree with everything you said about Chilcott, James. Yes. I disagree with the binary suggestion
35:05
that, you know, you either go in with Donald Trump or you go against him
35:10
Yeah, well, so do I now, but that's all on Mo. The last caller
35:14
He set the context there, so thank you, Mo. Well, Keir Starmer did actually push forward a little bit on Donald Trump
35:23
and didn't get penalised for it. Andy Burnham is supposed to be able to walk on water, allegedly
35:28
No, he's not. Don't be silly. Well, we'll see. Perhaps we'll do it at the weekend up in Manchester
35:34
On the Manchester Ship C, yeah. Yeah, exactly, yeah. So, politicians are really good at not doing binary when it suits them
35:42
They call it bureaucracy or dither and delay. Or diplomacy. I mean, I'm not going to police every word you use
35:48
because we're going to be late for the news, so crack on. Okay. So, he could simply apply, you know, sanctions in a way
35:55
without calling it that by saying, the British public need reassurance of what you're doing, Donald
36:00
Could you give us a list of what targets you're going for? We won't get that, obviously
36:04
Or even what success looks like. Give us a really clear ysis of what victory is
36:11
We need to be reassured that you're going to not do offensive bombing
36:16
So I need that for my people, because the first job of a prime minister is to defend the nation
36:22
So he could use some bureaucracy or diplomacy, as it were. Apart from that, we need some trumpectomies going on to get rid of him
36:29
Yeah, well, I mean, you mean, of course, politically. I have to just remind people of that
36:33
Well, you know that, you know that, but the internet is a mischievous and dishonest place
36:39
I don't want people pretending that you meant something other than what you meant by using those words
36:42
No, absolutely, it's his surgical removal from power. Chilcott Point Six, policy and strategy, what does success look like
36:50
He's not answered that question. He's categorically not answered that question, because he's answered it a hundred times with a hundred different answers
36:57
So how can you be part of something that doesn't fulfil Chilcott checklist
37:01
assist. You mean you've given Andy Burnham a kind of a get-out-of-jail card there
37:05
haven't you? Absolutely. I think you have, and I don't know whether
37:08
or not he can walk on water, metaphorically. Pretty sure he can't, literally
37:13
but I don't know if he wants to tear up that network of obligations
37:19
but I think an awful lot of people probably think he should. 03845 6060973
37:24
is the number you need Peter great stuff 1045 is the time James O on LBC It is 10 you listening to James O on LBC Have you seen the story about the artist once known currently known as Grant Shapps
37:41
Have you seen the story? This story is, for me, almost perfect for our purposes together
37:47
for the time that we spend together every day. while we marvel at the supposed rehabilitation of Kemi Bader
37:54
not one of the most ridiculous politicians we have ever encountered, but such is the madness of the current landscape
38:00
And, you know, so low was the bar when she started that it was almost impossible for her not to get better
38:07
And also the historic awfulness of Grant Shapps, Michael Green, Corrine Stockworth
38:12
You remember he had loads of different names, claimed that he didn't, turned out he didn't affect his political fortunes
38:17
under Tory regimes whatsoever. I've got to stop saying regimes so blithely when I don't necessarily mean it
38:26
Important to say it when I mean it. Have you seen the story about Cammie Bader and Grant Shapps
38:32
It's an absolute peach. And you do not, A, you don't want to miss it
38:36
and B, don't let me go home without telling you. But for now, it wouldn't be a phone-in about Iran without Ash in Northampton
38:42
who has covered himself in glory thus far, usually with regards to the maritime implications
38:48
both in and beyond the Strait of Hormuz. Ash would have been aware before I was
38:53
of that United Nations instruction this morning to evacuate 6,000 sailors because he reminded us to be mindful
39:00
of the ordinary men and women doing, I mean, not really extraordinary jobs
39:08
doing jobs that are quite normal and ordinary. Most of the time, now caught up in these hideous circumstances
39:13
stranded to all intents and purposes in the middle of a war zone. and there are 6,000 of them in the news headlines as we speak
39:21
But why did you pick up the phone today, Ash? Good morning, James. I wasn't going to phone in until you mentioned that
39:27
but actually it does, it ties together everything that you're talking about
39:31
And there is another aspect that I've been banging on about for the last couple of months now
39:36
which is the world food crisis that's going to come because of this
39:41
Because, you know, a large percentage of the world's urea, the world's fertilizers all come from in the Gulf
39:48
So where does that leave Andy Burnham? Well, the UN at the moment
39:54
seem to be crying out for somebody to lead it. Gosh. They want somebody to take this on board
40:00
The IMO aren't doing it. The ILO, the International Labour Organization, they're not doing it
40:05
The World Food Organization, they're not doing it. So what can Andy Burnham do
40:11
Well, those bases and that entire operation is quite a nice, and I hate to use that word because I don't like using words about warfare, but it's a nice bargaining chip for Donald Trump
40:26
What Andy Burnham can do is he can start to provide diplomatic off-ramps by using the UN
40:33
So he can use the fact that there is a food crisis about to happen
40:37
He can use the fact that there is a huge labour crisis about to happen in shipping
40:45
And he can labour, or he can go through the UN, lobby the UN, be the person who is going to try and force humanitarian corridors and humanitarian aid to start getting through
41:00
And that is what's going to start the whole process and give the diplomatic off-ramps to both Iran and the USA
41:07
Are we still treating the USA logically, though, with this ysis? Everything that I'm looking at is that Trump is bored
41:16
Yeah. Trump wants to move on to something else, and he can't..
41:22
The longer this goes on, the closer it gets to the midterms. Yes
41:26
He needs to point to something to say, hey, I'm the greatest. At the moment, he seems to be trying to do that
41:33
through bluster, propaganda, war, aren't we fantastic, aren't we big, we're so bigly it's amazing
41:41
What might work better is trying to become, I'm the president who stopped 11 wars again
41:48
Even though he started this one. Even though he started it, it doesn't matter. I'm not being glib, actually
41:53
I'm saying it wouldn't even touch the sides of his self-awareness, would it? Because there's not really any such thing
41:59
And what about Iran? Why would they be up for this? Why would they be party to anything that allowed Trump to emerge with credit
42:06
even if it was bogus credit? Yeah, everything that they put into the MOU
42:11
all of the articles that they put in are still extant. It's still stuff they want
42:17
They still want the money unfrozen. They still want... MOU, for people listening, is the memorandum of understanding
42:25
the sort of precursor to any treaty or deal. Is that right? Yeah
42:30
Yeah, and that's still extra. Like, they still have those wants. Still on the table
42:35
Yeah, and so, you know, what's lacking at the moment is diplomatic off-ramps that make sense
42:41
Yeah, and of course, they can never make full sense in the pre-Trump sense of the word
42:46
because they have to accommodate his absurdity and his moral depravity. So what you're doing, essentially
42:51
is giving Iran pretty much everything they ask for while allowing Donald Trump to publicly claim
42:55
that they haven't got anything. Do we give them everything they've asked for
42:59
I said pretty much, or give Iran enough for them to stand down
43:04
while allowing Donald Trump, or, you know, just a bit like the pigeon playing chess
43:09
Donald Trump can swan around the place, claiming he's scored a glorious victory, and it's in the interests of allies to cooperate in that deception
43:21
While everybody privately knows that the emperor's got no clothes on, we all sit around going, oh, lovely clothes, president, lovely clothes, Donald
43:28
Yes, it's what each regime can sell at home. And, you know, from Iran's point of view, you have to split that in three
43:35
You have to split that into the government, the IRGC and the clerics. Yes
43:39
Are they getting what they need to secure their power base and, you know, show their superiorities and their internal power struggle
43:50
And you need to satisfy Trump. yes and burnham in the meantime has to continue to allow the attacks to be launched from british
43:59
bases but move hopefully the bigger picture towards a quicker resolution via the by the
44:06
messages that you via the tactics that you describe um i think you said for the first time
44:10
since this war started you said something a little bit ridiculous there actually suggested that the
44:15
united nations had no leadership when donald trump has already suggested that gianni infantino the
44:20
head of FIFA should take over as soon as possible. Yeah. And I wish I was joking, mate
44:26
I wish I was joking. That's a lie. Oh, 10.55 is the time
44:29
Great stuff. Another of my favourite correspondences is Andrew, who last time I checked was based up
44:34
in Edinburgh and who has a history in the diplomatic corps. He points out very, very wisely that within what's plausibly legal, the UK has its self-interest
44:44
and ethical preferences to consider. This has been true of every war since 1945
44:49
So what different about Iran Answer nothing Except we no longer sure that the US is our ally Could be our adversary under Donald Trump So historically he describes it as a historically shattering shift
45:06
which endangers all the key foundations, military, economic, geopolitical, upon which the UK's survival relies
45:15
And we are all still very far indeed from coming to terms with that
45:20
So a little earlier as well, he put together some more thoughts
45:24
pointing out, and I have acknowledged this, I have corrected this, there's no treaty obligation
45:28
on the UK to help the USA in military operations against Iran. NATO doesn't cover it. None of our
45:33
other treaties do. Helping would actually be illegal, as Moe in Birmingham suggested, if the
45:38
US and Israeli war were one of aggression, which most of us think it is, although the US continues
45:43
to insist and Israel continues to insist that it has been self-defense from the outset. So as far
45:49
as helping the US or Israel is concerned, it's a fine line. If they did launch
45:53
a war of aggression in the first place, then even assisting with the self-defense
45:57
could be illegal. Helping other allies is more clear-cut. We're back to the
46:01
Chilcot checklist. And of course, I mean, it ceases to be clear-cut when you're talking about
46:07
helping the US help other allies. Is that helping other allies, or is that helping the US
46:11
Or is it both? I told you it was complicated. 10.57 is
46:15
the time. Chris is in Bifleet. Chris, what would you like to say? so yeah i guess i think that some of your recent calls have kind of touched on it i think where we
46:24
have the problem is we have a fundamental shift in the world order in in all the rationale that
46:31
we've been raised to believe and understand and rely on is fundamentally shattered down to
46:38
ultimately down to the the narcissistic impulses of a fairly crazy man in the white house
46:44
He's essentially shattered everything. Yeah, Andrew actually puts it in quite scary terms
46:50
In the bit of the message I didn't just read out a moment ago, he puts, it's hard to credit, but it's nonetheless true
46:56
We're disturbed by war, we don't trust Donald Trump, and deep down we even worry that at some point
47:00
we could be on the receiving end of US force while he remains in the White House
47:05
It goes that deep and that far, of course, and it is almost impossible to credit
47:11
but who would put anything past him? No, precisely. I mean, I think if you have a recent call, Asha had the rights on it with regards to logic, is this war illegal? That's a good argument
47:21
At the same time, international order is in essence already gone. We want to hold on to it and follow that logic, but it feels like the horse is already bolted
47:30
And what Burnham is in a really unenviable position is trying to shepherd us through what is ultimately a fundamental change in how the world functions
47:40
I don't think previous logic can be relied on. I think we are now in the world of social media-led politicians
47:47
I mean, we now have the world's first influencer president running the US, and he's just whatever he reckons
47:52
and just whatever he picks up on his Twitter feed or Fox News, he'll just regurgitate, and that's his vision for the day
47:57
And then he'll change to something else. No, exactly that. So the idea that we sit it out until normality returns
48:04
should become more attractive as time passes, but it somehow isn't, is it
48:09
I think the challenge is, I think there used to be guardrails. So the United States, I think his second term
48:13
His first term, Trump, I think was less affected because he didn't know what the hell he was doing. I think this time around, he's had a plan to gut everyone who steps in his way in any way
48:22
So now they don't have guardrails with the Supreme Court anywhere within the internal organizations
48:26
They're all endless sort of Trump signals. And even when Trump goes, they're going to have to rebuild their entire infrastructure from scratch
48:34
It seems all of that lawyers that were worth anything have quit their lawmaker
48:39
Everybody has kind of been shunted out. and now it's just whatever buffoon Trump wants to put into place
48:44
And they're going to have to rebuild their whole infrastructure. And this has been, yeah, I mean
48:49
it would not be even by the standards of this radio phone-in programme
48:52
I'm not going to ask you what the new infrastructure would look like. Could you just redesign the world order for us, please, Chris
49:00
And speaking of the internet and the madness thereon, of course, that phrase new world order is also up there with great replacement theory
49:07
as phrases that very stupid people use to pretend that they know what they're talking about
49:12
And just to highlight Chris's point, I read something the other day, and I'm sure that I knew it before
49:18
and if I didn't, then Eleanor did, because she pointed me towards it at the time
49:22
But in terms of the depth of the change, did you know Fiona Hill
49:27
who was Trump's advisor in the first administration on Russia, I think
49:33
she said in 2019, she testified to the National Security Council, something that when I tell you after the news
49:41
your hair is going to stand on end James O'Brien on LBC
49:45
4 minutes after 11, that thing, I've told you before but some things you just should have
49:50
tattooed on the inside of your eyelids back in 2019, Fiona Hill
49:54
a Brit actually, she's been on full disclosure I really recommend that you listen to it former US National Security Council official testified
50:04
in 2019 that Russia had informally offered to end its support for Venezuela
50:12
in exchange for US acquiescence on Ukraine. And listen, I mean, Fianna Hill is a very, very wise
50:20
and informed woman. But I don't know that she proved it during her testimony
50:26
but the fact that she said it is worthy of attention. And that is the new world
50:32
that many of my callers in the last hour were alluding to. Andrew in his text and callers in their conversations
50:40
The idea that we are being, I think this is in brief, this is the answer to the question
50:45
why do I feel now so differently about a decision that hasn't changed
50:50
and the rationale for that decision hasn't changed with regards to the UK Prime Minister allowing the US regime
50:56
to use UK bases to attack Iran in very specific circumstances, i.e. defensive as opposed to offensive
51:03
and the answer is because it is a consequence of a commitment
51:09
to a network of obligations that no longer exists. There it is
51:14
I love it when that happens. So, Chilcot, yes, do the checklist, keep it, here it is, laminated
51:22
But it's a network of obligations that no longer exists because at the head of that pyramid of obligations is Donald Trump
51:30
and as Andrew pointed out who here can say with absolute confidence
51:34
that there's any circumstances whatsoever in which Donald Trump's United States of America
51:38
would become our actual enemy never mind I think this Rubicon has probably already been crossed
51:45
cease to be our ally already really cease to be our ally
51:49
when would it become our actual enemy and so we're talking about
51:54
and Keir Starmer deployed and Andy Burnham inherits a network of obligations
51:59
contingent upon a world order or a status quo that no longer exists
52:09
And that's why we did it in the last hour, despite the fact that the appetite has changed
52:14
the appetite has diminished, the levels of interest, it could not be more important
52:18
But how many times have I said to you, the most important things going on in our world
52:22
are not very often the most obvious and engaging things for us to have a conversation about It a funny one So I given you the fiona hill hook and tease here another one i don know whether we going to turn this into a regular feature but i do every morning with eleanor pretty much as i leafing
52:38
through the newspaper i get to the birthdays column and i pick someone for the birthdays
52:42
column and i ask eleanor how old she thinks they are and we have great fun with this because i
52:47
always try and pick one that will take you by surprise so you are not allowed to cheat
52:52
you're not allowed to cheat it's Danny Dyer's birthday today there's an actor waiting for a knighthood
53:02
I would say, but it's Danny Dyer's birthday today, how old do you
53:06
think Danny Dyer is and just text me your answer and we'll see how
53:12
wide, I'll tell you what we could do if you are anything like as childish
53:16
as I am when it comes to these sort of things and the popular culture we could do it a few times over the next
53:22
few months not every day that i think would be a little bit weird and then try and see who's got
53:26
the biggest gulf as in between the lowest wrong answer and the highest wrong answer so how old do
53:32
you think danny dyer is and we'll see not only who gets the most wrong answers but also who has the
53:38
i mean there's not going to be looking at early answers to this one there's not going to be a very big gulf between the lowest wrong answer and the highest wrong answer because you're all coming in
53:46
with high wrong answers i'm not giving you any clues on this i've kind of given you one there
53:51
but how old do you think Danny Dyer is? Just take it up to about ten past. Don't keep sending them in all day
53:56
I'll tell you what, he's not going to enjoy this, looking at the actual age and the ages that you're suggesting
54:02
But I'll just leave that to run for about 90 seconds while I set up the next conversation
54:06
And it's relevant, in a way, to Danny Dyer, because it is one of my favourite subjects
54:11
But the reason why it's one of my favourite subjects is that we never get definitive answers to it
54:16
in the way that we got a fairly definitive answer, unexpectedly, to the conversation we had in the last hour
54:21
about Iran. And this is a conversation about working class culture. So we have
54:27
tried and failed on many occasions to pinpoint precisely what it is
54:31
that we mean by this phrase, working class, but we kind of feel it
54:35
in our bones, don't we, even if we can't perfectly articulate it
54:39
with our words, with our vocabularies. But that is the phrase that has been deployed
54:45
to justify the tax cut for pubs and clubs. Indeed, he has said that
54:51
the move is an attempt to protect Britain's working class culture. That 20% cut in business
54:59
rates across England from April of next year was a first step in helping businesses, adding that
55:05
they need to know, pubs in particular, need to know that the cavalry is coming, gambling arcades
55:11
and vape shops, but not, I don't think, bookmakers will see their rates go up to raise the money
55:17
needed to fund the move alongside a planned crackdown on online firms that fail to pay VAT
55:24
But he is talking about protecting working class culture. Asked why he had not gone further with
55:33
a wider tax cut covering cafes and restaurants. Burnham said, this is to me our heritage. It's
55:38
working class culture. That's how he'd pronounce it, even if it's not how I pronounce it. Once
55:44
pubs are gone, they don't come back. So, I mean, early doors
55:48
is putting the greasy spoon in a different category from boozer. You want to talk about working class
55:54
culture, what's going to be higher up your list of examples? A greasy spoon cafe
55:58
Pie and mash? Jellied eels? Or I mean, this would include gastropubs
56:05
This is going to include Tom Kerridge's pubs, and so it should. Tom
56:10
on full disclosure this week, the guest on full disclosure this week and Tom Swarbrick, the two
56:14
Toms, Tom Swarbrick on the Drive Time programme here at LBC, doing extremely
56:18
sterling work in the arena of seeking or campaigning alongside Tom Kerridge for improvements to the financial
56:26
situation of our hospitality industry but I'm pretty sure that Kerridge wouldn't accept that a pub
56:32
was somehow more working class than a greasy spoon cafe. That's not
56:38
the conversation we're going to have but it is an element of it. The conversation
56:42
we're going to have is this. What is working class culture? What is it? Now, the problem
56:50
as I mentioned in passing a moment ago, the problem with the internet age, and it's a
56:56
very small problem given all the benefits that we enjoy. I'm thinking of the radio program
57:00
now more than anything else. But the problem with the internet age is that you can clip
57:03
a little bit of me now and you can put it out in isolation. I'm doing the work for them
57:10
I'm doing the work for the racist trolls here. You can put it out in isolation, and you could make it sound as if I was claiming to be working class
57:17
which I am obviously not. But one of the reasons why I find it so hard
57:24
to define working class culture is that all of the things I think of
57:28
as examples of working class culture, or almost all of the things I think of
57:31
as examples of working class culture, are things that I really like
57:36
So when it was reported quite probably apocryphalism that Peter Mandelson went into a fish and chip shop in Hartlepool
57:44
and asked for a portion of avocado mousse because he'd never seen mushy peas before
57:49
I laughed with the best of them. I could have been slapping Jack Duckworth on the back
57:55
laughing at that joke, because I love mushy peas. I love fish and chips
58:01
One of the things that you might think of quite early in this country as an example of a working class meal
58:07
But I also happen to love pubs. I love everything about pubs
58:12
even if I'm not getting leathered I like a pub I like the smell of a pub
58:17
I like time in a pub I like finding things in pubs I found a pinball machine in a local pub
58:23
that I hadn't found before because it was on a floor I'd never visited and I don't know whether this was deliberate or accidental
58:29
or whether I got there shortly after a pinball wizard had been playing it seemed to be full of free games
58:34
I'm not telling you where it is in case there's a queue by the time I'm going home later today
58:38
I found a pool table in a pub near me about a month ago
58:45
out for a Sunday walk with some friends walking the dog popped into a pub I've not been to before
58:48
and lo and behold there was a pool table there a lovely pub
58:53
Sam Smith's actually they're an absolute fascinating phenomenon on the British pub landscape
58:58
so I love fish and chips I love pubs I mean I don't anymore
59:06
because the world has sort of morphed in a way, but I used to religiously enjoy
59:12
Coronation Street, and to a slightly lesser extent, to keep Danny Dyer in the picture, EastEnders. I love soap
59:18
operas. You think of that as a working-class entertainment. I love darts
59:22
I've been to the darts live, although that, I think, has trans..
59:26
What's the word? Not transgressed. It's moved. It's transmuted from a working-class pursuit
59:32
into a sort of unique phenomenon, really, darts. At its core, I don't think
59:36
there've been many middle-class darts players have there i don't think there've been many middle-class
59:41
darts players but darts i love darts i love snooker i love danny dyer um but i also know that danny
59:49
dyer was one of harold pinter's favorite actors and harold pinter was the sort of doyen of late
59:56
20th century intellectual playwrights and very wrongly We sometimes associate intellectualism with class
1:00:03
It shouldn't be. There are working class people who are a million times cleverer
1:00:09
than some of the old Etonians occupying positions of power and influence
1:00:12
in our cultural and political landscapes, but they never got the chance
1:00:16
They never got the break. So he's not giving any help to Greasy Spoons
1:00:22
but he is giving help to pubs, and when they asked him why, he said
1:00:26
it's working class culture. He's protecting working-class culture. There aren't many working-class pubs left in London or in big cities
1:00:37
I remember the last one to go in Notting Hill Gate, when about the one that was up near the old Sainsbury's at the top of Labbrook Grove
1:00:44
that's Flats now, the kind of pub you'd walk into and run a very real risk
1:00:48
if you were wearing loafers of the whole place going quiet. Do you know what I mean
1:00:54
I went into a pub in Romley. This is before the kids were born
1:00:57
before we were married. So this is more than 20... How long have I been married
1:01:02
26 years ago. It's more than 26... It was about 27, 28 years ago
1:01:06
Mrs. O'Brien was on a job in Stockport. I went into a pub in Romilly
1:01:10
Still had sawdust on the floor. Still had a lounge bar and a saloon bar
1:01:14
And in the saloon bar, there was still sawdust on the floor. Spent one of the most enjoyable afternoons
1:01:18
in a long time drinking. It would be Robinsons, wouldn't it, up in that part of Manchester
1:01:22
with a bunch of lads, who I've told you this story before, claimed, and I think they were probably
1:01:26
yanking my middle class chain, claim that they'd spent the previous night
1:01:30
nicking the metal off a local church roof. And I did that thing
1:01:35
that is apparently in Ricky Gervais' new stand-up show that I used to do whenever builders came to their house
1:01:41
or we had to get the car MOT'd and I'd suddenly find myself turning into the missing Mitchell brother
1:01:48
So, you know, I went to public school. Have I mentioned that before? I went to public school
1:01:53
I don't have a very, very plummy accent, but I clearly do not, I do not hail from Walford
1:01:59
But seriously, a builder comes around and I'm like, oh, mate, yeah, do you want a cup of Rosie Lee
1:02:03
Not quite. I don't think I'd ever use the phrase Rosie Lee. But Henry Riley went to see Ricky Gervais
1:02:09
live in Leicester Square the other night and he was telling me that he's got a whole routine now
1:02:13
about what he does when tradesmen come round and Ricky's background is working class
1:02:20
But you can see it in the film that he made, Swindon, I think. but obviously he's not now
1:02:26
he's as rich as Creases I love that, why do we do it
1:02:30
I do not know, I do it in Irish peeps I've got a kind of chameleon like quality
1:02:33
so it's not even just confined to class consciousness with me, someone comes around
1:02:38
and I'm at great pains, you should have heard my accent when I was working on that building site
1:02:42
in Doncaster in 1988, it's a very long time ago and I think
1:02:46
I even had enough, just enough self-awareness at the age of 16 to realise that I couldn't
1:02:50
really put on a fake Yorkshire accent I couldn't really but I did
1:02:56
the thing that middle class public school boys do when they want to sound a little bit more
1:03:01
of the people a little bit more demotic I think is the correct word to use
1:03:07
and I went cockney I mean it is ridiculous but why? Cemetery Junction is the film I was thinking of
1:03:19
it's Reading not Swindon there you go Everyone's a producer these days. Talk about crowdsourcing
1:03:25
What does Andy Burnham mean? Because we're doing an awful lot of speculation and ysis at the moment
1:03:31
about what Andy Burnham means. But when you hear these three words
1:03:35
what do you hear? What do you think I mean? Or rather, what do you mean when you hear these three words
1:03:41
Working class culture. Working class culture. Because you can be really snobby about it
1:03:47
I thought that little clip of Lewis was very strong a moment ago. I didn't understand why, this isn't a criticism of any colleagues, but I didn't understand why newspapers counted how many members of the cabinet had been to Oxbridge and tried to sort of use that statistic to distract from the fact that they almost all went to state school
1:04:03
you want to get a properly representative cabinet it's about your background and where you grew up
1:04:09
and how you grew up and if you ended up being clever enough to get yourself into oxbridge
1:04:13
despite not having the sort of education that costs parents tens of thousands of pounds then
1:04:18
you deserve um double credit i've always believed you go to a comprehensive school in kidderminster
1:04:24
and you get into oxford you deserve 10 times more credit than you do if you go to a school like mine
1:04:29
and go to Oxford. That's just a given. Why do you think we pay the money
1:04:32
to get an unfair advantage? It's obvious. But anyway, I look at that phrase
1:04:38
working class, and you can see, you can almost smell the snobbery kicking in
1:04:43
can't you? Oh, yeah, it's all about whippets. There was a caller on with Nick this morning
1:04:46
in Wimbledon who said, what's he going to do in Manchester? And I just thought
1:04:50
well, he's going to do exactly what he does in London, you clown. You think they haven't got pens
1:04:56
You think they haven't got computers and offices in Manchester? I mean, it's a great idea to move elements of the government out of the tiny, tiny bubble of Westminster
1:05:05
It's obviously a great idea, unless you're a bit blinkered or a bit daft
1:05:10
So I can answer a lot of the questions about what Andy Burnham means or why Andy Burnham is doing what he's doing
1:05:16
but I don't think I can answer this one. And the other thing is, a bit like British values
1:05:23
you ring me and tell me something that you think is representative of working class culture
1:05:28
and I'll tell you that as a fully paid-up member of the middle classes, I love that too
1:05:33
So I don't want to talk myself out of a topic. And I want this to be a warm and friendly conversation
1:05:40
But I do want to know what we think it means, with a side order of what we think Andy Burnham might mean
1:05:47
by using the word. What does it mean? What is working-class culture
1:05:54
in a way that distinguishes it from other classes or socioeconomic groups
1:06:03
0345 6060 973 is the number that you need. Andy Burnham is cutting taxes for pubs and clubs, but not cafes and restaurants
1:06:12
because he wants to protect working class culture. What does that mean to you
1:06:20
Hit the numbers now. you will get through. James O'Brien on LBC
1:06:28
It is 23 minutes after 11 and this is, I think, going to take some beating
1:06:33
for my favourite text of the week. And listen, we can't always
1:06:36
check the provenance, but there's no reason to doubt this and the name fits
1:06:42
What a lovely message. Thank you, Sarah. You've completely made my day. Hi, James
1:06:46
You just made me choke and laugh then. My dad was Bill Tarmy. I'm tearing up a bit
1:06:51
I'll tell you why in a minute also known as Jack Duckworth
1:06:55
he pops up in the most unusual situation so thanks for that I can tell you that the scene in Coronation Street
1:07:01
when Vera Duckworth passed away and Jack Duckworth found her in the lounge sitting in her chair
1:07:11
I can't tell you how moved I was by that without actually welling up
1:07:16
and that is a really good example of what we talking about this hour Because what is working class culture I was as moved and you can laugh at me if you want I was as moved by that scene featuring Sara dad who listening to the programme at the moment as I was by anything I seen on the stage at the Royal Shakespeare Company
1:07:35
or even, you know, down the road in Manchester at the Royal Exchange. That was Coronation Street. The writing, people like Russell T. Davis were there back in the day
1:07:44
The acting, three, four actors, actresses off Coronation Street have been on full disclosure
1:07:50
because they're brilliant at what they do. Huge snobbery about soap operas
1:07:54
but what's working class culture? I don't know. I really don't know
1:08:00
But that's made my day, Sarah, to know that you were listening, and I think of your dad often, actually
1:08:05
When I was away at boarding school, and I'd missed Northern accents
1:08:10
because mum and dad both have them, albeit that they're on the other side, they grew up on the other side of the Pennines
1:08:15
For some reason, Jack and Vera Duckworth assumed a very strange place
1:08:20
in my emotional furniture. you know you weren't really allowed to watch telly
1:08:26
but you'd sneak it on sometimes if no one was around and if you caught a little snatch of Coronation Street
1:08:32
and heard Northern accents it would alleviate some of my homesickness sometimes and it was usually
1:08:38
your dad that did it so that's absolutely lovely to see, thank you 25 minutes after 11, none of it of course advances us
1:08:45
much on our quest to actually maybe there's no such thing, in fact should I do
1:08:50
the phoning like that, should I do it in an obnoxious way say Andy Burnham is talking utter toddle
1:08:54
when he describes working class culture because there's no such thing if I wind you up a bit maybe
1:08:59
you'll work a little bit harder to define what it is because I don't know what it is
1:09:04
everything you say to me as an example of working class culture I as a fully paid up member of the middle classes
1:09:09
will tell you that I love up to and including rugby league which was on the show yesterday
1:09:13
Alan's in Chesterfield Adam even is in Chesterfield Adam what would you like to say
1:09:17
Hi James so I'm going to call it working class household. Quite low income
1:09:24
social housing that was on right to buy. And then I've ended up working in pubs
1:09:30
for about five or ten years as well. And I must say that I've been
1:09:34
growing up in pubs a lot in working class settings. I think
1:09:37
it was a good opportunity for people who were sort of living on the bread line to be able to
1:09:42
get in a shared setting and sort of share their life experiences
1:09:48
and share their I'm going to try and fix your phone line
1:09:51
I'm going to try and fix your phone line. Speaking of phone lines, if you want to contribute to this, because there's something there, isn't there
1:09:56
The role that a pub plays in a working-class community, and for many people who aren't working-class
1:10:02
the only one they'll ever have witnessed is either the Rovers' return or the Queen Vic. But the role that it plays..
1:10:07
I don't think that's true anymore, even with 20% off your business rates
1:10:11
The price of a pint, quite close to prohibitive. The poorer you are, the more prohibitive it becomes
1:10:16
I don't know. but I don't know what working class culture is and that is the question that I'm asking you this hour
1:10:22
Alec is in Manchester. Alec, what would you like to say? Hi, James
1:10:26
Hello, mate. Well, before we get into this, can I just say, we, I'm a plasterer
1:10:32
you do your builder's voice, we do our middle class voice. We just do it the same, the other end
1:10:38
So you come round mine and I turn into the missing Mitchell brother
1:10:42
and you turn into Tim Nisberg. And I start out doing all my T's and H's. I love it
1:10:47
Go on. Yeah, so I don't honestly know, to be honest. Yeah, I don't think anyone does
1:10:54
So it's different ages, I think. So when I was a couple years younger, nightclubs
1:10:58
I used to love going into Manchester, like going all, like, Fifth Avenue
1:11:02
how I met my partner. And now... I was going to Fifth Avenue in 1991
1:11:11
And I couldn't be less working... Well, I could be less working class, but I don't think anyone would... I think you'd laugh at me
1:11:16
if I claimed to be. No, I mean, I'd laugh if you claimed to be a middle class, but just because you're
1:11:22
sorry, working class, just because you're a middle class doesn't mean you can't do working class
1:11:26
things. But why is that a working class thing? I went to... What was that funny little club
1:11:30
upstairs in Chalton-Cumhardy? I went there as well. That's a working class club
1:11:34
And I was obviously a tourist. I was an interloper there. But what was the culture that
1:11:40
deserved its own category? I suppose the culture is, the night I met my
1:11:44
partner, I had £20 including my bus fare. I spent every penny
1:11:50
It was a phone party. I had about four drinks. I was hammered. I'm a lightweight. So, I don't think you could
1:11:56
claim to have experience having £20 in your name, but we can do
1:12:00
the same activities. It's just done maybe a little bit differently. So, and this
1:12:04
might be the only thing we've got, it is entirely socio-economic. Yeah. So you cease to be working
1:12:10
class when you're rich and you possibly become working class when you
1:12:13
fall down the socioeconomic scale, when you become poorer. Yeah, so I'd say I'm
1:12:20
looking more towards middle class now because I own a house, whereas my friends who come
1:12:24
from the same place as me, some of them don't, some of them do. It's unhelpful to talk
1:12:31
about pubs, really, because a pub is a many splendid thing, isn't it? So we're talking about the
1:12:36
type of pub, and fair play to, I think it was Rob, who's actually worked out
1:12:40
which pub I was in in Romilly back in the day. there was indeed the railway in. I don't know if it's still there or not
1:12:45
or indeed if it is still there, whether it's still got sawdust on the floor. But there would be a pub that I, as a middle-class person
1:12:51
would walk into and not feel familiar and not feel immediately at home
1:12:55
whereas a working-class person would. Apart from the fixtures and fittings and the floor and the price of the beer
1:13:04
what would be different in that pub? What would be different about the conversation
1:13:08
or about the community, do you think? If anything. if anything. I know what you mean
1:13:13
So we, in the council estate that we grew up in, there's pubs we just
1:13:17
won't go to. There's also now Do they have flat roofs? Yeah, that's the sort of place
1:13:24
That's some advice my dad gave me. Many, many years ago, I think when I first left home
1:13:29
he goes, just try and stay out of pubs with flat roofs. Go on. 100% best advice you've
1:13:33
ever got, probably. Yeah, so now we've got old man pubs. That's what we call them. Maybe it's
1:13:39
not appropriate to say, but where you just go for a drink, maybe a smoke
1:13:43
You don't, no food. Now we, as a family and our friends, we like to go to pubs with good food
1:13:49
And to be honest, like I say, we've got a bit more money now, so we don't like to go to pubs with food
1:13:55
but rubbish food. So does it just mean poor? Working class just means poorer, less wealthy
1:14:01
Is that all it means, really, when push comes to shove? I used to go to a pub
1:14:06
and I had to have no money to even buy a drink. And my mate might buy me one
1:14:09
but like, I don't know, to be honest. This is what I was having trouble with explaining to the..
1:14:14
Yeah, you and me both. You and me both. And of course, there'll be a lot of people listening from backgrounds
1:14:19
more like mine than yours who think that they did actually have an experiment
1:14:23
in what you're describing when they were students. But I always think of that line in the Pulp song
1:14:29
about you could phone your dad and everything would be all right or words to that effect
1:14:33
That's... You know what? That's probably it because it's the 20 quid on the night out
1:14:37
but like, I was stuffed that week and yeah, it is like
1:14:42
Jarvis is probably right no one could rescue me, I had to just suffer
1:14:47
I mean, that's why, I mean, it's called Common People, that song, and the distinctions
1:14:52
he draws are beautiful, they're poetic but do they do they extend beyond a Greek heiress as she was Reputedly you know Yanis Varoufakis wife was the model for that song according to
1:15:07
Well, Yanis Varoufakis told me that himself. Apparently his wife's not overly delighted by this nugget of information that no one has ever denied, up to and including her
1:15:18
But that could be it, but I don't know. That's a pretty big extreme
1:15:22
So you've got a lad from Sheffield who hasn't got a pot to pee in, and then you've got a Greek heiress who's turned up at St. Martin's College to study sculpture
1:15:29
There's obviously a gulf between them, and she wants to experience working-class culture in that song, of course
1:15:35
But what is it she wants to do that actually merits the use of the word culture
1:15:42
a distinctive, specific culture? It's 11.32. Dominic Ellis has your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC
1:15:52
I say that the lyrics of That's What I Like provide an insight of sorts
1:15:57
into what working class culture might be. Don't think of Bruno Mars, all right, kids
1:16:05
I'm thinking of, at Scott's recommendation, he describes it as a perfect encapsulation
1:16:10
of working class culture. Have a look at That's What I Like by Chas and Dave
1:16:15
And then, I don't know whether my problem, maybe it's a me thing
1:16:19
because I've been very mobile socially. My family, the last 50 years, last, how old's mum now
1:16:24
80-odd years, been very, very mobile. So I don't really fit in anywhere in class terms
1:16:29
Cheese and onion sandwiches and Derby Chinaware. I happen to love cheese and onion sandwiches
1:16:35
albeit that they have something of a hangover. Derby Chinaware would be the idea of keeping bits of pottery
1:16:43
in a special cupboard, wouldn't it? In like a glass. It's not the stuff you eat off, your Chinaware
1:16:49
It's the stuff that your mum has in it, or your nan has in it, your grandma has in it, in a cabinet
1:16:55
Fiddles and jigs. I didn't have that growing up. Woogie me dog and me auntie Vi having a swear
1:17:01
Taking me dad for a pint or two and a Sunday morning stroll. Liquorice pipes and baggy suits
1:17:06
Glen Hoddle scoring a goal. Catching a pike and riding me bike. Old wooden wheels and a bowl full of eels
1:17:11
So, pie and mash in liquor. Walking about in the rain. William books, comical looks, pianos, tramps and trains
1:17:15
Quite a London definition of working class. Oh, you missed it, Keith
1:17:20
It's the first time today. 11.36. But, I mean, it holds true nonetheless
1:17:26
But what there is culturally unique or culturally specific? Kevin is in Stoke-on-Trent speaking of China
1:17:32
Kevin, what would you like to say? Well, I live in the capital, working class capital of England
1:17:37
It's called Stoke-on-Trent. You just anointed it, that. I don't think it has been adjudged that
1:17:42
by any independent panel. I'm joking. We are the forgotten city, if you file it
1:17:48
because I came from my parents were Irish, came from overseas my dad had to come to Stoke
1:17:55
when I was 17 I was going to go to university in Ireland but when he came to Stoke he became a miner
1:18:01
and a steel worker so our family was we lived in absolute poverty by the way
1:18:06
I mean back then I wouldn't have struggled with this question and you know if I was struggling with it
1:18:12
I could just read a bit of Karl Marx and Frederick Engels and you'd have a very clear definition
1:18:16
of what the working class was but it's 2026 now. Yeah, I can't define it
1:18:21
because although we lived in a... Regarding myself as working class, my parents, especially my dad
1:18:28
pushed education very, very strongly in all the members of the family. So we're in an environment of working class people
1:18:37
So every Sunday, because we're Catholic, of course, went to church and then came back and played football
1:18:41
with about 50 other kids in the park all day long. Is that what working class taught us
1:18:47
to sit on the pub outside and beg for lemonade and bottles of Kaiser
1:18:54
Yeah, but we did that. I did that. So it's difficult to define
1:18:58
Impossible to define. It is. I mean... Define me. I don't know
1:19:05
Well, I'm also thinking about the street I grew up on. My father was a journalist
1:19:09
on the Daily Telegraph. Which is, you know, it doesn't get much more middle class than that
1:19:15
But we'd knock for each other to go out and play. You know, we'd go round to next doors on our bikes
1:19:21
or we'd knock for each other and play in the street. And I don't know whether that feels working class, looking back
1:19:28
or whether people would file that under working class culture. So once you move beyond the socioeconomic strata
1:19:35
which, I mean, I'm not even joking, which is, you know, a large part of the Marxist thesis
1:19:39
the Marxist dialectic, then there's not a lot left, is there? And we don't live in that world anymore
1:19:45
We just mean, either we mean poor or we mean uneducated. And uneducated is a hideous thing to synonymise with working class
1:19:53
And poor is not a massively helpful thing either. You've stolen all my good lines there
1:19:58
Get lost. You had plenty of time to say all that. No, you're right. It needs to be redefined
1:20:04
Working class needs to be redefined in some way or other. I mean, you've attempted to do it just by..
1:20:08
And I'm never going to stop. So when Burnham says pubs get help, cafes and restaurants don't
1:20:14
leaving the greasy spoon out of our contemplation for a moment, what do you think he means
1:20:20
I really don't know. That's obviously something to do with Manchester and pubs
1:20:24
The pub culture in that particular part of the world must be filled with working class people
1:20:30
Pubs are closing left, right and centre anyway. No, they are, but there's still quite a lot of them
1:20:35
And, you know, I've got no problem. I mean, I wonder whether, thank you, lovely stuff, Kevin
1:20:40
I wonder whether, I've mentioned this to you a few times, and it's such a weird place for my brain to go
1:20:47
but I remember when I was really young, reading about hedgerows in Switzerland
1:20:52
and how you could have much more, or measurably more profitable farming if you didn't have hedgerows
1:20:59
but they'd sort of introduced laws to keep the hedgerows in place because it made everything look prettier
1:21:04
It made everything look more bucolic, more idyllic, as you made your way through the Swiss countryside
1:21:10
And something about my adolescent sensibilities really liked that. I suppose it was as Thatcher was really getting into her stride
1:21:18
and everything was about profit and money and commoditization, setting the tone really for my entire life in terms of politics
1:21:28
And something stuck in my craw about the idea of prioritizing profit over everything
1:21:32
because views are nice. Hedges are nice. I wonder if pubs are a bit like that
1:21:39
You know, they might be becoming increasingly economically inviolable, but some of them should get a special dispensation
1:21:44
because of the cultural importance that they have. As soon as I say cultural importance, you say which culture
1:21:51
Andy Barnum says working class culture. And we say, what does that even mean
1:21:57
What does that even mean? It's 11.41. Lynn's in West Wycombe. Lynn, what have you got
1:22:01
Hi James Yeah I just remember Being working class obviously growing up
1:22:09
And in working class when I had my children I think it kind of meant community Because
1:22:14
You know we didn't have money To use for childminders There was people in the street that
1:22:20
I would work night shifts I would have their children, they'd have mine
1:22:24
I go shopping hairdressers They have the kids I have theirs Just popped in In fact you knew all your neighbours and everybody sort of helped each other
1:22:35
And I think when you don't need to do that because you have money, you don't look for it perhaps
1:22:40
But I just remember that as being a part of my life. Children strewn on steps and road and women coming from the shops past smells of different dinners
1:22:50
see the wild white face over top's red stretcher blankets momently. I mean
1:22:58
that works then, not to cast aspersions on your age, Lynne, but does that still work now
1:23:06
I think it could do, but I think communities have been so separated now
1:23:10
So they're all pulling together. It's trying to get that. And having to. And what about mobility
1:23:17
So when you were young and you were in the environment you describe, was it still competitive
1:23:23
Did everybody still want to keep up with the Joneses? No. Or is that a middle class thing
1:23:29
So I'm thinking about, I'll tell you what, to put it in the language of sitcoms, Lynn
1:23:33
I'm thinking about when bread morphs into keeping up appearances. Yeah. I don't think that was fair
1:23:41
I mean, I had an elderly neighbour that used to come in
1:23:46
we used to help her out quite a bit, who was from very East End and had moved to Bromley, where I used to live
1:23:53
she used to think that was very posh. As you say, they're all kippers and curtains around here
1:23:58
They're all kippers and curtains. Because, you know... Kippers were fancy breakfast
1:24:03
You wouldn't have porridge if you were posh. You'd have kippers and curtains instead of what
1:24:07
Instead of blinds? Yeah, so people didn't know what was going on inside
1:24:11
Kippers and curtains. I like that. It's the name of my first band. No, it wasn't
1:24:15
It was not the name of my first band. So, I mean, we're doing not a bad job of describing what it was
1:24:23
but are we getting any close to what it is? I do not know, but I do know how old Danny Dyer is
1:24:28
and very, very few of you do. In fact, I'm not sure anybody got it right
1:24:33
So, the highest answer to the question of how old is Danny Dyer came in at 60
1:24:38
The average was mid-50s, early to mid-50s. I think the most popular single answer was 54
1:24:47
And poor old Danny Dyer, I hope he's not listening. He's 49 today
1:24:53
Happy birthday to Danny Dyer, but he's 49 today. And obviously doesn't look..
1:24:59
Not for me to say, does he? Good Lord, a surprising take-up on that
1:25:04
Lots and lots of answers. One went in at 47. I saw one 47
1:25:09
I didn't see any 49s, and I saw about 154s. and two 60s
1:25:13
He doesn't look 60, honestly. It's coming up to 11.45. But what is working class culture
1:25:18
He'd probably have a view, actually. But as for the rest of us, we're struggling
1:25:23
We can tell you what it was. Thank you to whoever sent that in. Have I got a message there
1:25:27
That's just gorgeous. That club I was talking about in Chiltern-cum-hardy was indeed called Shades
1:25:33
Oh, so much memories of my... It was my year between school and university
1:25:40
All my posh mates went to Goa. I ended up in Cholton-Cumhardy. It's 11.45
1:25:45
James O'Brien on LBC. It is 11.48. Keith's been a bit quiet today, hasn't he
1:25:52
We should probably do a few little games so that he can press his little buttons. I've got a classic of the genre for you
1:25:59
if I can find it. The problem with being an ogue radio presenter is I actually use scissors
1:26:04
Other people would be touching screens and sliding things across and swiping right
1:26:08
And, oh, look, there's my unhinged headline. I'm definitely too late now
1:26:12
It's too late now, isn't it? If it was ever going to happen. And I'm still excited about having a laminated Chilcott checklist
1:26:18
There you go. You're watching on YouTube. You think I'm making this up? There it is. But I quite liked..
1:26:23
I liked the unhinged headline today. I think it was actually yesterday, but who's counting
1:26:28
Because it works in relief with another headline on top of an article by the same bloke
1:26:35
I'm fascinated by this guy. I'd never met him. Probably best if I never do. It'd be embarrassing for all concerned
1:26:40
but he is the king, the godfather. If Daniel Hanan is the world's wrongest man
1:26:45
then Alistair Heath at the Daily Telegraph is the godfather of the unhinged headline
1:26:51
He is the don, he is the king of the genre, the unhinged headline
1:26:56
And this is not by any stretch of the imagination his most unhinged headline
1:27:00
but you need to bear with me. But first of all, of course, we have to do this
1:27:06
Unhinged headline. Burnham is a financial arsonist who will torch the public past
1:27:13
Okay, all right, mate. He's only been there three days. So what you do when you read something like that is you think
1:27:18
oh, well, this guy's got some views. He's got some strong opinions. Let's have a look at his track record, shall we
1:27:23
Shall we see what... I mean, how qualified is he? How worried should we be that the editor of the Sunday Telegraph thinks that..
1:27:32
Burnham is a financial arsonist who will torch the public past. Well, let's just have a look at his track record
1:27:37
Let's file back, for example, to 2022. Here's a good one. Kwasi Kwarteng's budget is a moment in history
1:27:45
that will radically transform Britain. This is the budget when Liz Truss was Prime Minister
1:27:51
And the article begins, this was the best budget I have ever heard
1:27:55
a British Chancellor deliver by a massive margin. He's still got a job
1:28:02
This is what I mean when I... You cannot... I mean, this was the best budget I have ever heard a British Chancellor deliver by a massive margin
1:28:13
Writing columns, getting paid to write columns. And that's not even the unhinged headline, because I now write a newspaper column
1:28:20
and sometimes in order to attract attention in a click-based culture, they might put a headline on top of it that is a little bit excitable, shall we say
1:28:28
something about um i i the the the the the book being judged by its cover i don't know so sometimes
1:28:37
the headline might be considerably more unhinged than the article but it doesn't get more unhinged
1:28:43
by then well it might do actually depending on how far back into his track record you want to go
1:28:47
so the man who had the audacity this week to write burnham is a financial arsonist who will torch the
1:28:52
public purse four short years ago wrote of Liz Truss and Kwasi Kwarteng's budget. This
1:28:57
was the best Brit budget I have ever heard a British Chancellor deliver. Wait for it
1:29:02
wait for it! By a massive margin. So, well, you know what massive means
1:29:11
Two years before, no, just two days before that, two days before that, good Lord, what
1:29:17
a vintage period this was. This was like when Kim Casey was up front for Kidder Minister
1:29:21
Harris. This is the glory days of unhinged headlines. Two days before that
1:29:26
he wrote under the headline, after six wasted years, Liz Truss is about to deliver a Brexit
1:29:32
that actually works. These people are delinquent. And yet they still dominate discourse. Whether you
1:29:40
like it or not, an awful lot of the national conversation is still defined by newspapers
1:29:44
And an awful lot of people who are deciding what to do on their programmes, me included
1:29:48
on their TV shows, will turn to the newspapers. Find out what the chatter..
1:29:52
Oh, we should get a guest on. So the bloke who has the audacity
1:29:56
this week, all ready to write, Burnham is a financial arsonist who will torch the public
1:30:00
has previously written these gems. After six wasted years, Liz Truss is about to deliver a Brexit that actually works
1:30:07
and quasi-quarteng's budget is a moment in history that will radically transform Britain
1:30:13
And that, if you're new to the feature, is the very essence of..
1:30:18
Unhinged Headline! Anne is in Ashton in Makerfield, or Makerfield as it became known
1:30:24
during what may yet prove to be one of the more portentous by-elections
1:30:29
in the history of British politics. Anne, working class culture. What are we talking about
1:30:35
Well, in Ashton in Makerfield, where I live, as you know, Andy spent five weeks or so in the local club
1:30:46
up the road from me, about five minutes' walk away. And he was made very welcome there
1:30:53
When I saw him there the night before the election, he was relaxed, he had a pint in his hand
1:30:59
the local people, you know, were brilliant. It used to be a Labour
1:31:03
club, it's now a community club. Right, I was going to ask you that. Yeah, that was his headquarters, and
1:31:09
as I say, they made him very welcome. So much so, that he celebrated there, the night of
1:31:15
the election, and he announced that, you know how he used to give, was it
1:31:20
15% of his salary to the homeless? I did know that. I mentioned it
1:31:27
Actually, a lot of people don't know that. I mentioned it to Eleanor this morning. I don't think she knew
1:31:31
So, yes, he did. I mean, I don't know what he's going to do next, but when he was mayor of Manchester..
1:31:35
Well, I can tell you what he's going to do next. There we go. Because he announced it
1:31:39
He said that he would give it, and I'm assuming it's monthly
1:31:45
I'm not 100% sure of that, but he said he would give it to local places in Makerfield
1:31:56
Oh, constituency. He needed it. Right, okay, that's good. In his constituency
1:32:01
And the first one that he was contributing funds to is Stubbshaw Cross Community Club
1:32:07
who had made him so welcome. What's it called again? Stubbshaw. Stubbshaw
1:32:13
Stubbshaw Community Club. Community Club, yeah. As I say, it's just up the road from me
1:32:18
I'll give it a shout-out. No, you just have. I think you should be good for a free baby sham this evening, Anne
1:32:23
Yeah, definitely. So next time I'm in, I'll let them know. But, no, I mean, it used to be one, you know
1:32:31
that had concert nights, things like that. Now it's very often a venue for people who have local, you know, parties
1:32:39
Do you know what you might have done? You might have driven a coach and horses through the rest of the phone-in
1:32:44
because in communities like yours, there's one around the corner from me in Brentford, actually
1:32:49
but I've never been in. And those are the places that he's talking about
1:32:54
They actually still exist. They just never feature in magazine articles or you never see them on the telly
1:33:01
unless the local MP has put his base there. But the kind of places that are a million miles away
1:33:08
from middle-class chatter and media obsessions, but are still quietly getting on with it
1:33:14
There's one in Chiswick, you know, which is widely regarded as... They've often got links either to the Legion, the British Legion
1:33:21
or to the Labour Party, to the local Labour Party, but you've also got a tradition of working men's clubs
1:33:26
There aren't many of them, though. I mean, most people in Makerfield... No, no, we were closed
1:33:30
We had lots in Ashton, lots. You know, when I first got married
1:33:35
that was where we went out on a Saturday night, you know
1:33:39
me and my husband went to a local club where there was entertainment on, you know, local artists and so on
1:33:47
And obviously people played bingo, they did raffles, etc. And that was our entertainment at weekends
1:33:53
That was working class culture. Some of that still actually happens in some of the clubs
1:34:00
Yes. You know, but obviously less than half that used to be here
1:34:04
The same with the pubs. The tradition around there was to walk through Ashton
1:34:10
and call in, you know, the labs on a Friday night, call pub to pub for a pint
1:34:16
and I think there was upwards of 15, 16 pubs from one end of the town to the other
1:34:22
Now there's, again, less than half of that. But these kind of pubs where the lads all go
1:34:27
to watch football together, have a chat, play snooker, that kind of thing
1:34:33
a bit like the Rovers Return, you know. And just on the point of Coronation Street
1:34:38
I absolutely love Coronation Street, But I do think people in the south look at it
1:34:48
and until recently, they have started to do some of the houses up
1:34:52
and they introduced those modern semis on the other side of the road
1:34:57
But they still seem, they look at that and think that most of the terraced houses up here look like that
1:35:05
They don't now, because thousands of them have been renovated. I grew up in a house not dissimilar and in a street not dissimilar to Coronation Street
1:35:16
And that lady was talking before, I can't remember where she came from, but she was talking about community and looking after each other's children, etc, etc
1:35:24
That was my experience growing up. It is different now. But some bits have survived and you've done a really cracking job of..
1:35:33
So what you're telling us really with regard to decor is that no one's got docks on their wall anymore
1:35:39
No, nobody's got a muriel anymore. A muriel. You know, and I just think he's doing the Makerfield test here
1:35:49
Yes. And he talked about it, didn't he? He said, if it doesn't pass the test in Makerfield, it doesn't happen
1:35:56
And so I think it's something he gleaned because what I noticed
1:36:00
and I listened to him speak in another club, in another part of Makerfield called Highfield
1:36:06
And when I listened to him there, he was talking about, he was just so good at listening to people and what they wanted
1:36:16
And, you know, he looks people in the eye and he listens. And in my experience, he doesn't forget people
1:36:24
You know, as I say, I went up the night before the election. I will make one confession
1:36:30
I did go hoping that Hugh Grant was still there, but I'd missed him
1:36:37
I'd actually missed him. So you made do with Andy Burnham because Hugh Grant had already gone home
1:36:43
He welcomed me so warmly when I walked up to the edge. That's very special, Anne. That's very special, isn't it
1:36:48
And you're right. I mean, you are clearly, you have concluded, and last time we spoke it was crystal clear, that Andy Burnham is the real deal
1:36:57
He is what you see is what you get. Very genuine. I'm reading his book at the moment, his and Steve Rotherham, and it's absolutely fascinating
1:37:05
And some of the things that you've been talking about, the working class community, he grew up in it
1:37:11
So did Steve. And the other thing about him, which you mentioned briefly before
1:37:17
he went to the local secondary school, which is about three miles away from me
1:37:22
and he went to Cambridge through sheer hard work He did It shines through in the interview I did with him four years ago And I got a little note the other day I shouldn tell you this Anne but no one else is listening I filed my newspaper column the other day and I got a little note saying there some dispute over whether he actually working class or not
1:37:40
Are you sure you want to go with the line about his working class credentials? And do you know what I did
1:37:45
Yeah. I thought of you. Did you? I did. He definitely is
1:37:49
I know. He definitely is. I just said, trust me on this. And I mentioned two or three of those things that you've mentioned
1:37:54
the state education and the family background because his dad was a phone engineer and his mum was
1:37:58
a GP's receptionist and I thought yeah I'm not going to change that line
1:38:01
there will be people saying no he's not, he's not this, he's not that, he went to Cambridge, how can he be
1:38:05
working class but it's more complicated and at the same time more simple than that
1:38:10
isn't it? It is and in his book at the beginning he talks about
1:38:14
being in the local pub with his mates you know pubs I knew the names of
1:38:20
and going to the football together on the same kind of coach that I did
1:38:26
from Ashton Town Centre going to Goodison Park on that coach and I did that as well
1:38:31
And that is actually the perfect call to end this entire conversation with because you've
1:38:38
reminded us that we've been searching for a definition and in fact it hasn't gone away
1:38:43
it has just shrunk and that's the point that Andy Burnham seeks to address
1:38:48
he's saying well you might have shrunk but you're not going to be
1:38:51
invisible anymore and well touch wood he continues on the path that he's
1:38:57
embarked upon and does enough to retain the very valuable admiration I would say of a lady
1:39:03
like Anne. Thank you Anne. It's 12.02. James O'Brien on LBC. 5 minutes after 12 is the time you are listening to
1:39:11
James O'Brien on LBC. Let's kick this hour off with a missing word round
1:39:15
We haven't done one for a while. This is quite a nice one you might have seen it so don't
1:39:19
cheat alright? Promise? Promise? Thank you. Hitler's home becomes blank in efforts to deter neo-Nazis
1:39:32
Hitler's home becomes blank, or technically blank, blank, in effort to deter neo-Nazis
1:39:41
What have they turned Hitler's home into? I can tell you it involves a 20 million euro refurbishment
1:39:48
partly in the hope of deterring neo-Nazis, deterring, I suppose, forms of pilgrimage by neo-Nazis
1:39:57
Hitler's home becomes blank in effort to deter neo-Nazis. I don't know why that suddenly made me think of an interview
1:40:02
that Elon Musk has given recently to the Economist newspaper, Economist magazine, to the editor-in-chief
1:40:08
the magnificently named Zannie Minton Beddows, with Elon Musk. But I just thought I'd play a few clips from that for you as well this hour
1:40:17
because we don't get many insights into what that man is thinking
1:40:21
except, of course, from his Twitter account, which is on a platform now, entirely engineered
1:40:27
to promote people like him and sympathise. I'll tell you what I'm thinking
1:40:31
I'm thinking, what's it doing to his own brain, this mad world that he's created online
1:40:36
this mad test tube, if you like, that he is controlling? And I think we get some insights into that
1:40:44
in the course of this magnificent interview with a brilliant, brilliant journalist
1:40:48
but I don't think, watching it back, that Elon Musk is going to be particularly delighted
1:40:54
Seven minutes after 12 is the time. But the main focus of conversation this hour is, once again, going to be ADHD
1:41:00
Because, A, I find it fascinating, and, B, I think it's huge
1:41:04
I think it's huge. Is it mystic gym territory, this? I've been saying for some time that this is going to get..
1:41:10
It is, isn't it? I've been saying for some time it's going to get bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger
1:41:14
And, of course, it gives us an excuse to play the new jink. Does it give us an excuse to play the new jingle
1:41:18
I'm going to slightly over-egg Mystic Jim, as in the predictions that I'm making
1:41:24
but seeing that the jingle is brand new, I'm just going to use it. It's probably not completely applicable in this case
1:41:31
but if you weren't listening yesterday, you haven't heard my new jingle yet, and you know how my mind works
1:41:36
If I don't remind myself of it regularly, I'll forget about it completely
1:41:40
So this is the new jingle to accompany moments when things I've told you will happen have happened
1:41:46
Mystic Gym it's about what it's about a quarter of a second
1:41:53
a tenth of a second too long there I love the fact that it's that lot because what's happening
1:41:57
well it's probably my favourite it might be my favourite ever that it's certainly up there
1:42:02
we've got some lovely stuff we should just play them all out one by one one day that's a good day to do that
1:42:06
on a Friday is that something you can do can we just listen to all of them and then have a vote
1:42:10
on what's the best alright no one's buying this except me Smear Kia was the best
1:42:14
that one's gone Shall we just listen to... Yeah, that one was lovely
1:42:21
That's gone now, hasn't it? And nothing rhymes with Andy that would involve the same sort of focus
1:42:27
Well, obviously Randy. I'm doing so. Shandy and all that kind of thing
1:42:32
But stop it now. I'm breaking my train of thought. I'm struggling enough to concentrate as it is
1:42:39
It's one of the great things about living in London. Oh, flipping heck
1:42:47
It is nine minutes after 12, ADHD. And the reason I want to talk about it today is twofold
1:42:52
Number one is that middle-aged women are fueling what the media inevitably describes as a drug surge
1:43:02
but which more responsible coverage would simply describe as diagnosis and treatment
1:43:08
Prescriptions to treat attention deficit hyperactivity disorder rise sharply. And that's the news
1:43:14
because more people are being diagnosed later in life. And it is particularly among women
1:43:22
So the more you talk about it, I have discovered on the programme, the more people listening realise
1:43:29
that they might have it. And the more people who realise that they might have it
1:43:35
particularly listening to a programme like this one, the conversations we've had over the years
1:43:39
where we some time ago managed to detach ourselves from the really lazy ignorant and rather obnoxious
1:43:47
worldview that because it didn't exist when we were young it must all be made up or just a synonym
1:43:52
for naughty realizing something much much more subtle and sophisticated is going on then you
1:43:58
begin to wonder whether actually your life would be measurably improved by diagnosis and treatment
1:44:04
so middle-aged women fuel adhd drug surge is the way that even the daily telegraph which didn't
1:44:11
used to be so shallow chooses to write it up when the real story is women particularly are getting
1:44:19
diagnosed and treated for a protect for a debilitating condition in unprecedented numbers
1:44:26
Among those under 18 The number of patients receiving medication has increased by 17
1:44:34
But among those over 40 The figure has gone up by 40
1:44:42
And I'd like to know two things I'd like to know what the drugs do
1:44:48
Actually I might only want to know one thing this hour The conversation has been not dominated but I just checking with Eleanor now You talk among yourselves for a minute Disproportionately it been a male conversation hasn it I mean most of the conversations we have are disproportionately male
1:45:05
and we do better than any other phoning show in history to actually get more female voices on than the norm
1:45:13
But it is often the case. You know, I always point out when a female caller comes on and says
1:45:18
oh, I'm not going to be as good as the other callers, she's always better. I've never taken a call from a man that began with a man saying
1:45:23
oh, I don't know that I've got much to say about this, but I thought I'd read it. It's always a female thing
1:45:27
There's a word for it. Is it self-editing or self-censoring or making yourself smaller in the world
1:45:33
I hate it. I hate it. And I do my best, I suppose, to combat it
1:45:39
But it is also true of the ADHD conversation, which I have really enjoyed
1:45:44
I've enjoyed it enormously. But it has been male-dominated. and if the reason for the or if a bigger part of the rise in diagnosis and treatment is middle-aged
1:46:00
women then today i want to have a conversation about the difference it has made to you as a
1:46:05
middle-aged woman to receive an adhd diagnosis and treatment there's something about late life
1:46:11
diagnosis that i find absolutely fascinating i'm asked occasionally to to pinpoint the things i
1:46:18
find most interesting on the radio and it's quite hard to do and it depends what we did 10 minutes
1:46:23
ago and it depends what mood i'm in and it depends whether or not we've just come up with a hilarious
1:46:27
new jingle or we've started playing a a funny word every time someone says the word london
1:46:33
i've got all of that london there you go well done he's awake and and it so i can't it's not
1:46:39
an objective it's never an objective answer to the question of what do you but the thing that i find
1:46:44
most fascinating historically or traditionally is transformation. I really like transformation, that stories of really meaningful change. In fact, if I had to have a kind of watchword or a motto
1:47:00
I'm an enemy of the idea that a leopard can't change its spots. I really am. If you, you know
1:47:07
we took that, we take all of these figures of speech or proverbs as gospel when we're growing
1:47:12
up, I think a leopard can change its spots. I think Andy Burnham, politically, who was pretty
1:47:17
close to being perceived as a dithering failure when he left Westminster, has, to listen to Ann
1:47:23
in Makerfield a moment ago, returned as a very different person, a very different politician and
1:47:28
a very different man. I think leopards can change their spots, or at least they can try to
1:47:35
But this is different, isn't it? This is realising that some of your spots have been painted on
1:47:40
and they weren't doing you any favours and they could actually be removed
1:47:45
And it is a conversation about the difference to your life that the diagnosis makes, but also that the drugs make
1:47:54
4.2 million prescriptions for medication to treat attention deficit hyperactivity disorder were issued last year
1:48:02
That was up by 25% in 12 months. The sharpest rises were that thing that we've discussed
1:48:08
That's why I gave myself a mystic gym. I said to you, I think late-life diagnoses are going to be the next big chapter of this story
1:48:14
Because we spoke for years about children being diagnosed. Neurodiversity among children, the great parallel I always used was dyslexia
1:48:22
which some people were sniffy and sceptical about when I was a kid, but now it's a given that it exists and it is well-documented and well-reported
1:48:29
the impact that it can have on lives and the benefits of both diagnosis and treatment
1:48:34
And then we were doing the same with children and ADHD. but I said to you as a consequence of phone calls
1:48:40
that we took on the programme I said to you this is going to be the next big part of the story
1:48:46
it's going to be adults getting diagnosed it begins with parents taking their children to be diagnosed
1:48:51
and sitting in the waiting room thinking hang on a minute that's me
1:48:55
or sitting in the consultation with their own child and thinking that's me that is
1:49:00
so actually it is Eleanor was a bit sniffy about whether or not
1:49:04
this was a mystic gym moment That was the thing I predicted, that the next big chapter in this story would be late life diagnoses
1:49:11
And we have tracked that chapter well, but we have not focused it before on middle-aged women
1:49:17
Probably mostly mums, I would argue, because you have... I wonder who's got the latest life diagnosis for ADHD
1:49:26
I wonder if we can find someone in their 60s, 70s or 80s who's been..
1:49:30
And the difference that it made, because that's what I mean by transformation. It's not the diagnosis itself, it's what happens next
1:49:36
The diagnosis and, to a certain degree, the medication. They're the rock that gets lobbed into the pool of your life, the pond of your life
1:49:44
It's the ripples that I want you to describe. So, as a middle-aged woman or older
1:49:50
what difference has the diagnosis and the drugs, the medication made, to a life that you previously thought was how it was always going to be
1:50:02
That's the bit about transformation. This is how it was always going to be
1:50:07
This is who I am. This is how I live my life. I don't, I didn't know this was negotiable
1:50:13
This wasn't ideal. I wish I wasn't like that, but I am. And then suddenly you realise, or slowly you realise
1:50:21
that perhaps it's something that can be negotiated with. It's something that can be treated
1:50:27
It's something that can be different. And the first step of that is diagnosis
1:50:31
and the second step of that is medication. So, about 803,000 open referrals at the moment
1:50:38
seeking an assessment. About 2.5 million estimated to have it in England alone
1:50:43
although most haven't been formally diagnosed. So, what difference does it make
1:50:49
when you get the diagnosis? And the bit we haven't really done before
1:50:53
is the simpler question in some ways of what difference the drugs make
1:50:58
to how you actually live your daily life, your day-to-day existence. is changed by the medication
1:51:04
and I would like you to tell me how. 0345 6060 973 is the number that you need
1:51:12
It's 1217. James O'Brien on LBC. 19 is the time. What is middle age these days, James, says Matthew
1:51:20
I'm currently being assessed. I mean, unless you have a very eccentric name, Matthew
1:51:24
you might not be clear on whether you're middle-aged or not, but I don't think you're a woman. If it turns out correct that I do have it
1:51:30
I'm not planning on taking any medication. I want to learn how to live without other..
1:51:34
I don't know what middle-aged is. I don't think that my colleagues over at Classic FM
1:51:40
who do a brilliant podcast called it You're Wrong About ADHD. Is that what it's called
1:51:46
Nigel suggests that's what it's called. I thought it was called something else. But anyway, Sam Pittis and Katie Brethwick
1:51:49
do a fantastic podcast about their own diagnoses and their own conversation
1:51:54
I don't know that either of them are middle-aged, but I don't know. It doesn't matter if you're a woman
1:52:00
particularly if you're a mum and you've received a diagnosis, then I would like to hear from you
1:52:04
But do not let me forget the Grant Shapps story and the Elon Musk interview, all right
1:52:09
So we've got a lot to get through this hour before it's time to go home, and I have to give you the answer to the missing word round
1:52:14
Before all of that, Jessica is in Sheffield. Jessica, what have you got? Hi
1:52:19
Hello. I just wanted to share my experience a little bit with you. I hope you okay by the way but not even after Well you don have to You had two and a half hours to work out whether I am or not That is true I doing all right Jessica Go on
1:52:36
Yeah so my journey with ADHD is actually quite new. I'm 31, I'm not quite in the middle age category
1:52:44
Don't say that to me. My husband actually is kind of a long-term listener of you and
1:52:52
and listened a while ago and came home and was like, Jeff, I think you've got ADHD
1:52:58
and I think you need to go and get an assessment. Really? So it's on me
1:53:03
It is on you, yeah, 100%. And it was my husband 100% pushing it
1:53:08
I kind of just went, no, it's just me. Yeah. So I went and I had my assessment
1:53:16
and I got my diagnosis last October. and I still I'm quite emotional about it
1:53:23
because I kind of feel I've kind of had a lot of times
1:53:28
to sort of think about maybe how life would have been before like if I'd known
1:53:33
before would university have been easier that was always a big one for me would
1:53:39
work have been a little bit easier and work demands been a little bit
1:53:43
better for me and and so it's kind of been a little bit of an emotional roller coaster in that sort of sense
1:53:51
can i ask what i mean what kind of things might have been easier what what what were the sorts of
1:53:58
quotes problems and quotes that that you lived with lived lived through um i've always found it
1:54:06
quite hard to kind of concentrate yeah i always did okay in school i mean i was i was i think
1:54:12
People, teachers, I mean, I was a teacher myself up until last year, by the way
1:54:18
So, but I do think teachers probably hated me. I mean, I was the sort of child that I was quite naughty, but always did okay
1:54:25
Like, I was... Did they think you were lazy, or they thought that you were disruptive, when in fact..
1:54:30
I was very disruptive, yeah. But not through choice, as it were
1:54:34
I think they thought it was through choice. Yeah, exactly, exactly. and I think particularly going into work
1:54:43
I love being a teacher I absolutely love it I had to leave because it was just too much for me
1:54:51
I did about eight years and decided that I just couldn't deal with the demands
1:54:57
it was burning me out too much and I don't know whether having that diagnosis earlier
1:55:01
may have made that a little bit easier for me well having just rather rudely suggested
1:55:06
that you might already be middle-aged. I am now going to remind you that you're still very young
1:55:12
So, you know, never say never. I don't know. No, and I may go back to it
1:55:16
Well, exactly. So what's changed? And are you, I mean, after the diagnosis
1:55:22
did you get a prescription? So I recently started medication about a month ago
1:55:29
I tried one maybe six weeks ago and it was horrific. Okay
1:55:34
and kind of sent my anxiety into a bit of a spiral
1:55:38
Yeah, that's no good. No, and I decided to try another because I thought I've only given this a go for a few days
1:55:45
like this isn't enough. And actually, the last sort of month has been brilliant
1:55:50
It's been really... I feel more balanced. Right, yeah. I kind of feel like a little bit more clarity in my brain
1:56:02
I'm starting jobs and actually finishing them which is something that I've always gone
1:56:09
oh yeah let's do this, I'm going to do this and then maybe start and then
1:56:13
never ever actually finish it I think the important thing for me is not even necessarily the medication
1:56:21
it's understanding, and I know a couple of weeks ago this conversation
1:56:26
was happening, but it's understanding yourself a little bit more and joining the dots
1:56:29
together and of going actually maybe this is hard for you because of the ADHD and and maybe that's
1:56:37
why and it's why it's a little bit more difficult so that maybe somebody else yeah so there's this
1:56:43
thing on our back as humans and and we mistake what it is because of things that happened when
1:56:50
we were growing up and what you've have you've replaced a sense of would I don't know I might
1:56:55
go as far as to say shame or embarrassment because it's a terrible thing to say that i think my
1:57:00
teachers must have hated me that's shame right there's something yeah toxic there that doesn't
1:57:05
do you any positives over the you've replaced the shame with understanding and that must be
1:57:10
such a lightening of your burden yes it really is i've definitely got a long way to go i have
1:57:17
such a big fear of failure even in if it's failure in my eyes it doesn't even have to be
1:57:23
to anybody else. But I think it's other people's perceptions of me
1:57:29
I get it. I understand. I want to make sure that everything is done as perfectly as possible
1:57:35
Because you've lived with failure through no fault of your own, but you've had to deal with the consequences of it
1:57:43
as if it were all your own fault, I think. And by failure, I don't mean the obvious stuff
1:57:51
I just mean like being the naughty child, being the disruptive child, being portrayed as, in your own mind
1:57:56
someone who you didn't deep, deep, deep down think you were. Yeah, and I think that was it
1:58:02
I think, and it's, I have gone through my life, and I've said to my husband, so I met him at 24
1:58:08
it's always been, what's wrong with me? Oh. There's something wrong with me
1:58:13
Sorry, I do get quite emotional. Don't apologise. So do I. So do I
1:58:17
There's nothing wrong with that. I nearly got set off by getting a message of Bill Tami's daughter earlier in the program
1:58:22
So there's no shame in a bit of emotion on this programme
1:58:27
When your husband suggested that you went for a diagnosis, is it fair to say that was an act of love
1:58:33
Yes, definitely. And I trust him to know that that's what it was
1:58:39
I know that he... I think he probably has known since then..
1:58:44
Well, we've all learned in the last few years. Since he met me
1:58:49
We've all learned. So it's as if he can see two of you
1:58:52
You can see that there's, I don't know what we'd describe it as, like fuzz around the edges, the ADHD, and it can actually be turned down
1:59:02
Like you can turn the knob on the fuzziness down and you're still you
1:59:06
In fact, you're more you without the fuzziness than you are when the fuzziness is there, perhaps
1:59:11
Yeah, and I'm very grateful that I've actually gone through the process
1:59:15
it's been hard and I know that there's a lot more to
1:59:19
sort of understand But you're on the path now Exactly. That's brilliant
1:59:25
And has he noticed? What's he said? I think he has I think he has noticed that
1:59:34
I do see him I say calmer I often see it from an emotional side
1:59:41
just because my go to is sort of if anything anything goes wrong
1:59:48
even if it could be depending on the day could be the smallest smallest thing my go to is just
1:59:52
cry meltdown because I find it really hard to express my emotions
1:59:56
in any other way well you're getting better I don't know what
2:00:00
I don't know what you were like two months ago, but you're doing a pretty flipping good job of it now, right now
2:00:03
Oh yeah, I think if I'd called a few months ago, I would have been in floods of tears by now
2:00:08
Oh, interesting. Because it's sort of, I want to get my point across and don't really know how
2:00:13
That's really frustrating. That's a sort of circle of frustration as well
2:00:17
It gets more frustrating the longer it goes on. Jessica, you're a star. You're an absolute star
2:00:21
And you're definitely not middle-aged. No, no, no. Please don't say that
2:00:26
But the clock is ticking, Jessica. The clock is ticking. It's 12.28. You're listening to
2:00:31
Joe Zobrine on LBC. And that's why I get cross about the way that some of the
2:00:38
language is deployed in these stories. Middle-aged women, and not Jessica, but women older than Jessica, are
2:00:46
fueling a surge in drugs. Maybe I'm going mad. Maybe you're not hearing what I'm hearing
2:00:52
or seeing what I'm seeing. But that's framed as a negative. That's framed as something
2:00:56
to tut over. As you open your Daily Telegraph in the morning
2:01:00
You're supposed to tut at this, oh, they're all taking drugs now for something called ADHD, Doris
2:01:05
I mean, what's up? It didn't happen in my day. It just seems to me that the language is unhelpful
2:01:13
It is being portrayed as either faddish or undesirable. And it's the polar opposite
2:01:20
It's underpinning something that's been part of humanity since we started. It's only now that we're coming to understand it
2:01:25
and it is being both diagnosed and treated. And what a beautiful call that was
2:01:32
Thank you. It's got a bit of good news. I don't know if you're familiar with the Amelia de Moldenburg podcast
2:01:38
or indeed with her work. I am a huge fan of Amelia de Moldenburg
2:01:42
and I've just got the note saying she's going to be recording Full Disclosure on Monday
2:01:47
So that's fun. Today's Full Disclosure guest is Tom Kerridge. I shall play you a little clip of that before home time
2:01:53
and immediately after the very latest news headlines, I will solve the mystery of today's missing word round
2:02:01
which was, of course, the one about Hitler's home, becoming a blank blank in effort to deter neo-Nazis
2:02:09
So as soon as you have heard the very... Well, I'll give you the answer to that. As soon as you've heard the very latest headlines from Matt Hewitt
2:02:15
James O'Brien on LBC. Oh, 32 is the time, and who says women don't ring radio phone in
2:02:22
Sally. Oh, Dave, get lost, mate. I was about to read out loads of names
2:02:27
of women then, and old Dave started flashing up on the screen. Tell Dave to do one
2:02:30
Do one, Dave. Sally and Kat and Kylie and Gaynor and Anne and Lizzie
2:02:36
and Michelle and another Sally. Two Sally's. It's lovely, you see. We do
2:02:42
12.33 is the time. Hitler's home becomes blank blank in effort to deter neo-Nazis
2:02:48
The missing words were police station. It's an interesting choice. Hitler's home becomes
2:02:54
police station in effort to deter neo-Nazis. A police station has been opened
2:02:58
in the Austrian house where Adolf Hitler was born after a 20 million euro refurbishment
2:03:03
The building in Branau Branau Am Inn, a town just across the border from Germany, had previously stood
2:03:08
empty for 15 years amid a drawn out debate about how to stop it being used by neo-Nazis
2:03:13
as a kind of secular shrine. And there it is. Hitler's parents, a mid-ranking
2:03:19
customs inspector and a housewife, rented an apartment in the three-storey townhouse until 1892 when the future dictator there's a line you
2:03:27
don't often read in the newspaper was three years old and it's now a police station um it also had a
2:03:32
brief spell as a bank would you believe so now you know back to adhd late life diagnoses particularly
2:03:37
for women lizzie's in buckhorn western in dorset lizzie what can you tell us hi jane hello hi um
2:03:44
So I'm 50. I was 50 this year. I was diagnosed a couple of years ago
2:03:50
I've had a bunch of therapy throughout my life, starting from my 20s
2:03:58
and realized in my last lot of therapy that I suffer from sensitivity rejection dysphoria
2:04:07
which is very much connected to ADHD. Right. So it's struggling with relationships and it's perceived rejection before it happens
2:04:17
or even if it doesn't happen, you're perceiving it. Very much connected
2:04:22
So for me, it's more the emotional side of ADHD that's affected my life
2:04:27
It's affected relationships, friendships. You carry on, sorry. So my confusion myself was my mom and dad got divorced when I was a young teenager
2:04:42
I had no problem with that. But all the therapy was related to that
2:04:47
And I was thinking, why am I not feeling better from this therapy? And actually, you know, I'd come to terms with that
2:04:53
And actually it was the ADHD that was driving the emotional issues that I had
2:04:59
and it all sort of came to realisation when I was studying a therapeutic psychology course
2:05:06
about nine years ago and I was sitting there and they had a neurodiversity module
2:05:11
and I was thinking, oh my God, this sounds like me. I can pinpoint all these things
2:05:18
Wow, so people thought your behaviour was a consequence of your parents' divorce but in fact it was bedded in long before that
2:05:26
Yeah, so did I. And, you know, my mum, definitely ADHD, massive procrastinist
2:05:33
I mean, the thing is, there's so many things that connect. People just think, oh, it's just inattention
2:05:42
You know, it's just not being able to sit still. But actually, there's a whole myriad of other things connected
2:05:51
So what difference is diagnosis, mate? How did that change? I think it was the realisation
2:05:57
and looking back through all of my relationships and how it's actually sort of blocked
2:06:03
me from doing things in my life and I'm also quite a
2:06:07
procrastinator as well so it takes me a long time to decide
2:06:11
to do anything, procrastination massive part of ADHD can't decide, can't make up your mind about things
2:06:17
you put it off, you put it off you know, put off jobs, put off
2:06:21
relationships, put off, you know the list is as long as my arm But I think it's helped
2:06:26
My daughter also has ADHD and it's really helped her. I think
2:06:34
Who got diagnosed first I did Right I did And I known for probably about 10 years that something was going on You just never got round to it
2:06:44
You procrastinated. Yeah, just put it off. Keep putting it off. I won't go on medication myself
2:06:54
because, well, I'm already on HRT. Right. So that's another thing. All the menopausal symptoms
2:07:01
when they come up, your ADHD goes through the roof basically as a woman
2:07:06
I've read that you know so I mean we've got it us girls have got it sort of from all angles
2:07:12
based on ADHD girls so but it is helpful to know but what is helpful is to
2:07:20
also learn about how your brain works don't just rely on I mean obviously if medication helps you brilliant
2:07:26
but to just you know I really thought therapy really helped me actually
2:07:32
learning about myself through therapy and the last therapist I had was very clear that was ADHD
2:07:38
yeah same, I'm lucky as well with therapists over the years and some of them get it I guess
2:07:44
and some of them just don't but what springs to mind as you speak
2:07:47
not necessarily as an alternative to medication but just as a separate conversation
2:07:53
is that knowledge is power knowledge itself is power absolutely knowing and then working out
2:08:00
knowing how your brain works, working it out, doing lots of research yourself
2:08:04
because, you know, you're a master of yourself. You are your own expert
2:08:09
And, you know, if you find that out, then you just don't feel like you're sort of, you know
2:08:13
And you automatically, I presume, I don't want to put words into your mouth
2:08:18
it becomes easier to be kinder to yourself. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely, because that is sort of beating yourself up about it
2:08:27
and feeling rejected and what's wrong with me. Massive part of it. I mean, and I'm sort of, I've come to terms with all of that now
2:08:35
But it's just been helpful knowing it was a thing rather than, you know, relationship breakdown of my parents
2:08:43
Yeah, of course it is. Which never affected me, really. I was quite happy. We're all probably a little bit more complicated than we realize
2:08:51
And an awful lot of our childhoods are spent being told to be less complicated and to be easier
2:08:56
So damage being done in all sorts of ways. and it's never too late to start undoing it
2:09:01
Lizzie, that's brilliant. Thank you. I'm happy for you. Can I just say one more thing? Yeah, well, go on then
2:09:07
Coincidentally, I think you went to the LSE with my brother, Max. Good Lord
2:09:10
Max! Max Holland. Big Max. Max Holland. Yeah, Big Max. Ponytail Max
2:09:14
Yeah. I've told the story. Well, give him my love, won't you? I will do. Do you know the story of the pigeons
2:09:21
No, I don't. Did he ever show you a film he made? Actually, I never saw that
2:09:26
I heard about it, but I never saw it. I've told this story on the radio, Lizzie
2:09:30
And this is when I was stopped by the police in Covent Garden because I was selling..
2:09:36
I mean, the premise of the film was that I was catching pigeons in Trafalgar Square and then barbecuing them in Covent Garden
2:09:43
to sell them to tourists. And we got stopped by the police
2:09:47
He was all right because he was around the corner with a camera somewhere and I had to explain to the police
2:09:52
that I wasn't really... I had a bag full of feathers that we'd got out of a pillow
2:09:56
and some chicken joints that we'd covered in tomato ketchup and a little barbecue grill
2:10:03
and I'm putting the chicken joints with feathers on. Two or three tourists came up and asked if they could buy one
2:10:08
We had a little sign-up saying pigeon burgers, two pounds, and I never saw the..
2:10:12
I bet he never got around to making it, did he? I bet he never did the final edit. Do you know what
2:10:17
He's over in the UK from China, because that's where he lives at the moment. Fantastic
2:10:21
But I will ask him to share it to me. I want to see that film and give him my proper love
2:10:25
I think of him often. Thank you, Lizzie. Lovely man. A lovely boy, really. We were just kids at the time
2:10:30
1241. I also got into trouble with some of the people who had licences to trade in Covent Garden
2:10:35
who thought that I was treading on their toes. But that was the... I've told you that story
2:10:40
but not for a very long time, of my brief career as a pigeon burger salesman in the middle of London's fashionable Covent Garden
2:10:47
That's a small world, isn't it, eh? Anne's in Banbury. Anne, what would you like to say
2:10:52
Oh, hello, James. Hello. So I was diagnosed with ADHD when I was 63
2:10:59
Gosh. Which is a year ago. I'm 64 now. And I've been on medication for about the last five to six months
2:11:07
How's it going? So it's going fine. So I always knew, I always felt there was something from teenage years
2:11:18
and whilst I've had good academic achievements and a good career, I took 80% retirement when I was 62
2:11:29
and I decided finally to try and sort out what it was
2:11:35
What are we talking about? What are the things that you didn't feel were quite right, if I could ask you that
2:11:40
Yeah, so a bit like your previous caller, she talked about rejection sensitivity, dysphoria
2:11:48
but always feeling, even when I made a good impression on the crowd
2:11:53
I would always have friends, I would always feel inside that I'd done badly
2:11:57
and beat myself up overnight and have anxiety, and then that becomes social
2:12:04
Oh, I'm just going to try and sort your phone line out because I'm fascinated to know what happened when you got that diagnosis, Anne
2:12:10
and I'm going to make sure we get you back on, but we just lost you. If you can still hear me, we just, just lost you
2:12:18
towards the end there. Sally's in Westminster. Sally, what made you pick up the phone
2:12:23
Hi, James. I picked up the phone because I made a documentary
2:12:28
about the history of ADHD for another channel, Radio 4. Never heard of it
2:12:35
I know. And looked at the history of ADHD and the history of medication
2:12:42
Oh, wow. And we particularly focused on women because there has been such a spotlight put on the number of women
2:12:49
Even before today's, you know, this week's headlines, there's been such a spotlight on women
2:12:55
And there are a number of things that we found out. Now, it's my job to do this, right
2:12:59
I research mental health and then I try and neurodivergence and I try and bring the findings to the public
2:13:07
That's what I do for a job. Brilliant. So what we found out by interviewing experts across the piece and by looking at all of the research It always been a contested diagnosis
2:13:22
There's always been people who've said, it's not a thing. But it is a thing
2:13:27
It's clearly a thing. If you put people in a scanner, you can see differences in how their brains react
2:13:33
I've heard that. I've read that. I mean, Rory Bremner made a program where they put one of my colleagues
2:13:39
katya rubia put him in a scanner um and you could see the differences in his brain richard bacon's
2:13:45
had the same done so you know you can find this stuff online so you can see it in the brain you
2:13:52
can see it in how um people um live their lives because people with adhd are living lives in a
2:13:59
world that isn't configured for them so if you are continually struggling and scrabbling to keep on
2:14:06
top of dates, obligations, where you're supposed to be, what your bills are, and you're completely
2:14:13
overwhelmed by it. And this is the thing, right? It's not just, oh God, I've got more admin to do
2:14:19
It's a complete overwhelm which paralyzes. So people can't actually live in the world as we
2:14:25
make the world much more complicated. People find it increasingly difficult to live in the world
2:14:30
and then the thing about girls is there are different types of ADHD
2:14:36
and I'm speaking very generally here but there are broadly two an attentive type and an inattentive
2:14:42
a hyperactive type and an inattentive type well guess which one the girls are
2:14:46
it's not the it's not the fidgety boy on the chair it's the girl at the back staring out of the window
2:14:52
so it's really unhelpful how we've talked about it as if it's only fidgety boys
2:14:57
yeah and the thing is in the same way that you spoke earlier
2:15:01
I've had you on in the car, the same way you spoke earlier..
2:15:05
It's better than Radio 4 most of the time, but not all the time. It depends who's presented, I would say
2:15:13
So, when you were saying earlier about women don't ring in, and when they do, they're very self-effacing
2:15:20
That's because we live in a patriarchy, whether you like it or not
2:15:24
we live in a patriarchy, and women mask how they behave. They change how they behave
2:15:32
So when they're ringing you, they're saying, oh, I don't think I'm going to be as good as the men
2:15:36
And in ADHD, the way it manifests itself is they look at what other people, particularly girls, are doing
2:15:42
and they copy that behavior because they think that that's the way that they should be behaving
2:15:49
What that ends up in is a lot of very, very, very unhappy girls
2:15:54
and women who aren't living their true selves and the reason we have huge rates of diagnosis now
2:16:01
is because all those girls 40 years ago grew up they became teenagers they became young women
2:16:09
they became in their 30s their 40s their 50s and still were not diagnosed and guess what now they
2:16:16
are being diagnosed so of course there's going to be a blip because there are decades of girls and
2:16:22
women who have never been diagnosed as they should have been well this is one of the best calls i've
2:16:27
ever taken i mean i've had some cracking calls over the years but i don't know that i can remember
2:16:32
the last time someone addressed the absolute bones of what i was trying to talk about in in
2:16:38
the way that you've done because you've brought every element of the story into into clearer focus
2:16:44
up to and including the generational question because we wouldn't even have known what it was
2:16:49
when they were teenagers, most of the callers I've had today. And we'll go back to Anne after the break
2:16:53
who's 62, 64 now, 63 when she got diagnosed. And so these people have lived their entire lives under a..
2:17:02
How would you describe it? Heartbreaking is how I would describe it
2:17:06
I interviewed a woman in her early 70s who got her diagnosis in her early 70s
2:17:12
Heartbreaking. Absolutely heartbreaking. But better late than never, not to be glib
2:17:16
but you still feel a lightening of your burdens and an improvement to your existence
2:17:22
even if you're wishing that you'd done it 40 years ago. Yeah, I think that's right
2:17:26
I think it helps people make sense. Everything that your two previous callers have talked about
2:17:32
I've seen it in the scientific literature. So I've seen people misdiagnosed with depression and anxiety
2:17:39
when actually it's a byproduct of their ADHD. So it's something to celebrate
2:17:43
It's why I hate the language it's reported. It surges in drugs and this, that and the other
2:17:49
but it's a wonderful thing you describe. I think I've worked out who you are
2:17:52
You are Professor Sally Marlowe. Yes. And can you recommend anything for people listening to go to
2:17:59
Is there any reading? I mean, they could listen to the documentary you made for Archive On 4
2:18:03
They could listen. It was called, you know, Troublesseying Still. They could listen to that
2:18:08
And I think that's quite a nice, if you're a woman, it's a nice routine
2:18:13
I'm going to get into so much trouble. Well, you know, other documentaries are available
2:18:18
The BBC documentary, but ADHD and me, the BBC documentary. Oh, no, you're not BBC, sorry
2:18:26
Can't say that one either. No, no, of course you can. It's me that gets into trouble after the show, not you
2:18:31
You'll be absolutely fine. Professor Sally Marlowe, thank you so much. That's fascinating
2:18:36
Truly fascinating, actually. And it suddenly puts together like a Rubik's Cube
2:18:40
All the colours match now of all the other previous callers that we've taken. I love that
2:18:45
It is coming up to 10 to 1. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. James O'Brien on LBC
2:18:51
12.52 is the time. And don't forget, you can listen back to all of my programmes
2:18:56
on the Global Player and, indeed, on the LBC app, as well as a dizzying range of podcasts
2:19:01
But I want to get back to Anne, A-S-A-P. We were, well, you were 62 when you took 80% retirement
2:19:08
63 when you got an ADHD diagnosis, and you're 64 now, and you've been on the medication for five months
2:19:14
and what difference has it made? So it's made a huge difference
2:19:19
in terms of my emotional well-being. I've always been able to concentrate
2:19:25
I mean, I did very well at school and I've had an academic career
2:19:29
That's one of the things that kind of blinded everybody to the fact that I had any problems
2:19:34
because my CV looked great but as I used to say to people
2:19:39
it was chaos inside my head. I think your last talk Sally was talking all about the masking and stuff like that So I know that very well I learned to do all of that So I had this outward appearance of capability and competence and so on and then this inward kind of chaotic ADHD stuff going on
2:20:03
that I was beating myself up about with anxiety, staying awake at night with anxiety
2:20:10
Did you know that not everybody else was like that? Did you have some sort of subconscious awareness
2:20:17
that this wasn't how things were meant to be? Or did you just think you were really unlucky
2:20:23
No, I kind of thought it wasn't. Because it was always transitions for me
2:20:27
So school to university, I managed perfectly well academically, but lifestyle-wise was a dead loss
2:20:35
And I knew other people were managing better than me. I could see that, right
2:20:41
And then I had various other points in life where there were transitions and the same thing happened
2:20:47
and then I'd settle down again because I'd be used to it
2:20:52
and be able to manage again. But like Sally was saying, it's the toll, right
2:20:59
So I could do my work. You make it sound exhausting. You make it sound exhausting
2:21:03
Yeah, it was exhausting. It got more exhausting. I think somebody talked about menopause
2:21:09
so obviously I've been through that, and that's also true. So it got more exhausting then, and that was COVID as well
2:21:16
coincided with Covid for me so uh that and then getting back out again in the morning to work
2:21:24
that got harder and harder after Covid and after working I was lucky I could work at home
2:21:30
then and so it's it's um you know it's been a lifetime of things which I can look back on
2:21:36
and that's that's another thing though looking back on it it does help to make sense of things
2:21:41
and that helped. Good, because I mean that's a bit 50-50 I imagine is that you could feel a little
2:21:46
bit cheated that you hadn't done it sooner because things would have been so much different and better
2:21:51
in so many ways but equally it allows you to re-edit your own past in a way and see yourself
2:21:57
more kindly I think. Yeah exactly, exactly and I think as well because it was little known and
2:22:05
as that was been said before they didn't really know what to look for in women especially women
2:22:10
who'd achieved well. Well, you were doing it right, weren't you, on paper
2:22:14
You were ticking all the boxes, but you knew inside. So everybody thought I was fine
2:22:19
Like a swan, like one of those swans that look so serene on the surface
2:22:23
but your feet are going like the clappers just below where no one can see
2:22:28
Steady on. I don't know how serene I am. I was managing
2:22:34
I was managing. Right. Well, that is lovely. And I'll tell you what, you will have inspired other people
2:22:38
closer to your generation than mine to think as well. I mean, well, it's only 10 years between us
2:22:45
but other people will be thinking maybe it's still worth it. Maybe it's never too late
2:22:51
And in fact, Sally in Stowbridge, who we're not going to have time to talk to, she's another five years older than you
2:22:55
and she's just got diagnosed very, very recently. So love to Sally as well
2:23:00
But I do want to play you a little clip of this week's full disclosure episode
2:23:05
We've got some crackers coming up. For everybody who was dropping me little notes about the Manchester club scene in 1991
2:23:11
Tim Booth was in recently to record one that will be with you soon
2:23:16
the lead singer of James. I've got Rachel Riley in next week, which means I've now got the full set
2:23:20
of the Countdown Ladies on the full disclosure. Amelia de Boldenberg's in on Monday
2:23:25
and I've just put Eric Idle in. So now I've done Palin, I've done Cleese
2:23:30
and I would have done Eric Idle as well. As soon as I say that out loud, I miss my dad
2:23:35
Because the idea of me sitting down with the members of Monty Python when I was a kid watching Monty Python with my dad would have been unthinkable
2:23:43
And I think he would have derived some joy from that. So wherever you are, dad, I've got the third one now
2:23:48
I've got Eric Eidle coming on full disclosure. But this week's guest was Tom Kerridge
2:23:53
And well, you can hear the question and the answer. When was the first time you tasted something that was extraordinary
2:24:01
Yeah, there's a couple of moments and they were actually, they're parts of when I remember my dad being there
2:24:05
So my dad used to have evenings in the house. It was very like bloke nights
2:24:10
He used to brew his own beer, and he used to have very drink-heavy evenings
2:24:15
And he would set up on the table. And so this probably is 1980, maybe, 1981, early
2:24:23
So I was seven or eight years old. And there would be things like pickled onions that as an eight-year-old you'd never eat and things like that
2:24:30
But there was pate, like French pate that he'd have. And he would do corned beef sandwiches with loads and loads and loads of English mustard
2:24:41
And they were done in crispy kind of like bat rolls. And I just remember having some of that
2:24:47
And I remember having English mustard for the first time, pickled onions and pate
2:24:52
And these were flavor profiles. I just, like, as a child, you go, what on earth
2:24:56
like exciting and also like repelling, like horrific. But at the same point, the realization that food
2:25:04
the levels or the excitement or the kind of impact that it can have was massive
2:25:10
So those are my first impactful food memories of going, there's something quite different out there
2:25:15
and quite adult about it. Like thinking, I can't wait to get grown-up taste buds
2:25:19
And then thinking, how does anyone like this? a top carriage a genius in the kitchen but also extremely top bloke and latterly a bit of a
2:25:30
political activist you might have heard him on with tom swalbrick calling for the hospitality
2:25:33
industry to get more help from government we talked about the likelihood of andy burnham
2:25:37
delivering it and between recording the interview and playing it out to you andy burnham has delivered
2:25:42
at least a beginning to that process if you missed any of today's show you can listen back on our free
2:25:47
global player or indeed the lbc app where you can stay up to date with all the latest news videos
2:25:52
and opinions you can listen to a range of podcasts include how many podcasts a month do you think that
2:25:57
you're downloading now from me so i've got the full show i've got james o'brien daily i've got
2:26:01
full disclosure and there's a separate mystery our podcast as well have a guess how many do you think
2:26:06
keith and not you personally mate i mean like everybody so i know you're not downloading any
2:26:11
of them as ma'amir how many do you reckon oh uh millions yes one million one million podcasts
2:26:17
every month being downloaded now you can listen to all of them uh via the lbc app so download it
2:26:23
now from your app store tom sawbrick with you at four as ma'amir as you may have gathered
2:26:27
standing in for sheila fogarty with you now james o'brien on lbc
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