Up next in 10
Simon Marks joins James O'Brien to react to the Pentagon's announcement that the execution of the Fort Hood shooter will be broadcast.
President Donald Trump has ordered the use of a firing squad to execute the former US Army psychiatrist who killed 13 people at Fort Hood, Texas, in a 2009 shooting spree the gunman later described as retaliation for US wars in the Muslim world.
3:07 | Video credit to Real America's Voice
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0:00
a live-streamed, an imminent live-streamed execution in the United States of America
0:06
the land of the free. Simon Marks, our Washington editor, is with me now in London. But we took an
0:14
early call from Jake, who is an American on holiday in Pitluck Creek. And like Jake
0:19
this is your home that we're talking about. Yeah, I mean, I have to say, James, there is very little now that surprises me about the
0:26
Trump administration. I mean, the last time I felt a sense of shock, like I felt last night when I
0:31
first learned this news, was the day I glanced at my phone and the White House pull report was
0:36
informing us all that we've heard something about a bulldozer and there's a report that they're
0:41
knocking down the east wing of the White House. We're going off to check. And I thought, well
0:45
you know, of all the things that could possibly happen, that can't be right. I'm sure the next
0:50
pull report is going to tell us that it was just a maintenance man coming in to do a repair
0:53
Yeah. Lo and behold, they demolished the East Wing of the White House. And then you think, well, if he can get away with that, he can get away with pretty much anything
1:01
This report last night, which and the origination of this report last night, which was so absolutely shocking
1:11
takes the country down a path that it has not been on since 90 years
1:17
The first, the last public execution in the United States took place on August the 14th, 1936
1:25
Rainey Bathia hanged for rape. 20,000 witnesses in Kentucky for that. That was the last public execution
1:34
And last night, this news broke via an interview that Pete Hegseth, the Secretary of War, as Donald Trump calls him
1:42
gave to Jack Posobiec, who is a far-right propagandist on Real America's Voice TV
1:51
And you have to put this into context. They did this interview in San Diego
1:55
The USS Abraham Lincoln returning from a 322-day record-breaking deployment in Iran
2:01
in support of Donald Trump's entirely fruitless war on Iran. Among those sailors returning, finally, to US shores last night
2:10
eight who had tried to throw themselves overboard from the USS Abraham Lincoln because of dwindling supplies of food and also clearly dwindling mental health on board that vessel as it broke all records for the longest deployment without putting into port that any aircraft carrier has come close to notching up in the United States
2:33
And Posabeck turns the conversation to the news that we had learned earlier in the week that Donald Trump had approved the firing squad military execution of former Army Major Nidal Hassan, the Fort Hood gunman, Islamic terrorist who killed 13 people and injured 39 others in that attack on Fort Hood in 2009
2:59
2009. And listen to this exchange between Posabeck and Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth
3:07
What led to that decision process? No brainer. Execution by firing squad. Army major betrays his country. Radical Islamist kills a bunch
3:14
of Americans at Fort Hood. Of course, we're going to do it at Fort Hood and do it on a Thursday
3:19
We're going to do it at one o'clock, which is when he did it. And it's going to be soldiers with rifles executing the firing squad. It hadn't been since World War Two since we've done that
3:28
Well, I kind of like the mentality we had in World War II, which was win, which was understand when the enemy attacks you, you stand your ground
3:36
So it was a radical Islamist terror attack. Remember what Obama called it
3:40
Workplace violence. I mean, that's what we're up against. That's the worldview we're up against is workplace violence
3:45
CVE. We know what it is. It was a radical Islamist attack in uniform inside the ranks
3:50
And so he's going to get a firing squad of soldiers, as it should be. And we'll make sure that people are able to watch it, that it's public, because people need to understand that this is a serious consequence for these types of things
4:02
Uninterested in any sense of process. The man who cloaks himself with Christianity on a continuing basis, essentially saying eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth
4:16
That is what this is all about. This is all about showing the world publicly that if you engage in the kind of actions that former army major Nidal Hassan engaged in, this is the kind of brute force justice publicly accessible that this administration intends to meet out
4:38
And it takes the United States down once again. I mean, this is a country that has not just departed the railway tracks. It's hurtling into an abyss. And it's doing so in all sorts of different ways, whether it's Donald Trump preparing to rig the outcome of the midterm elections or the first public execution using the technology of live streaming that this is going to entail in early December
5:04
and for the British government, there is a huge consequence of this
5:10
How can you, if this was happening, as you were saying earlier in the programme, in any other country
5:15
if Vladimir Putin said, I'm going to start engaging in public executions
5:19
if President Xi Jinping did it, when the Iranians do it, when the Afghans do it
5:26
the Taliban does it, we call it out. What are we going to do about this
5:31
and how are we going to be in a position to continue saying, we're trying to build bridges with the Trump administration
5:38
the same administration, by the way, whose fruitless war in Iran has led to a £12 billion hole in Britain's public finances
5:47
Hegseth sounded to me as if he was almost boasting about the capacity for barbarism
5:54
displayed by the terrorists. He was almost saying, anything you can do, we can do better
5:58
Well, first of all, Hegseth is always high on his own supply, as they like to say in the United States, right
6:03
I mean, this is a man who has... He doesn't sound sane. ...inestimable self-confidence
6:08
and an ability to embrace every single hard right position going. You know, historians will debate whether he is or is not a fascist
6:19
There are certainly characteristics of this decision that would absolutely fit that description
6:25
The other aspect of this is you are proposing to punish a man
6:31
for committing a murderous act of mass gun violence in the United States not just with a firing squad with an act of state gun violence in the United States
6:46
you're going to allow members of the public to watch it. You know, I raise two kids..
6:50
Why does that element disturb so much? Not just you, but why is it the broadcast element
6:55
that curdles our blood? Because I raise two kids in the United States
7:00
They're both in their 20s now. time and again, whether it was COVID-19 or the first Trump administration
7:06
and the excesses that we witnessed during that, people being told, you know
7:10
maybe we should all be taking doses of disinfectant to get rid of COVID, all the other excesses in that first administration
7:16
You sit down as an American parent. I think if you're a responsible American parent, you sit down
7:22
And I'm not American, just to underscore that again and again and again. But your children are. But my kids are dual nationals
7:27
You sit down over the dinner table and you say to your kids when they're 7, 8, 9, 10, 11
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You've just got to understand, this is not normal. This is not the way things normally are
7:38
They're not the way things always are. It's going, you know, you've got to just put that in your mind
7:43
This too shall pass. And then you discover that actually this has become the new normal
7:50
And this is why this is such a seismic moment. How do you put this genie back in the bottle
7:58
What happens if we get to January of twenty twenty nine and a Democrat is sworn into the White House
8:04
What happens if the Democrats find a way of overriding Donald Trump's efforts to undermine these midterm elections and take control of one, if not both houses of Congress in January
8:15
How do you repair a country that is in, you know, in several areas irreparable
8:24
I mean, how do you do that when you're at the point of holding public executions that presumably kids will be able to find a way of watching
8:35
How do you as a parent say to your child, you've got to understand this is not normal when these kinds of behaviors and they are, as one of your callers was saying, utterly dystopian, Hunger Games, Black Mirror
8:48
I mean, that's where we are. What do you say to your children? What do you say
8:52
I think you have to say that it's a country that has absolutely completely lost its way and is in desperate need of someone to find a way of leading it back to even vaguely established moral and decent high ground
9:10
Norms. Norms is a word we don't use enough. And another word that we don't explore the meaning of enough because we have grown up taking it completely for granted is civilisation
9:18
Yes. These are marks of civilisation. You recognize the potential for feralness that every human has, and you build societies that keep the feralness at bay
9:31
They keep it, you know, we use shame and we use the law and we use tradition and we use religion to keep the fundamental, atavistic, potentially feral nature of humans under lock and key
9:49
And they're letting it out. They have the audacity in their national security strategy to say that what is taking place on this side of the Atlantic is the civilizational erasure of Europe
10:02
The civilizational erasure of Europe. Well, you know what? The French, as of yet, have not restored the guillotine and are not beheading people publicly
10:10
We're not having public executions at Tyburn here in the UK. I mean, the notion that it's this continent that is engaged in civilizational erasure, when you see this kind of behavior being not just sanctioned, but ignited by two of the top figures in American politics, the president and his secretary of defense
10:36
Everybody can decide which side of the Atlantic is engaged in civilizational erasure
10:40
That's very nicely put, very powerfully put as well. And that is the point, isn't it, is that they are sending out a message that goes far beyond this firing squad or indeed this murderer
10:52
It is a message that speaks to the norms. It speaks to the, you know, the obligations, the network of obligations that we all live under
11:02
It is saying to their supporters, well, nuts to that. You said it on January the 6th
11:08
You don't need to worry about the network of obligations that actually binds our society together
11:13
You don't need to worry about the civilizing laws and regulations. If you're with me, you can do what you want
11:20
And this comes one week after the botched execution of Christopike in Tennessee
11:25
A woman who has now woken up in a hospital room where the state is now trying to save her life so that she can potentially become well enough in order for them to try and execute her again
11:38
A woman who's been handcuffed to this is not to excuse the brutality of Krista Pike's crimes
11:44
She herself does not excuse the brutality of her own crimes. She said she should be jailed for life without any possibility of parole
11:51
This is a woman that they scarred, they blistered her arms because they messed the execution up so badly with the pentabarbital and then handcuffed her to a hospital bed
12:02
And can I just remind everybody, the American Constitution outlaws cruel and unusual punishment
12:10
And if the treatment of Krista Pike and now the proposed treatment, the public live streamed execution of Nid al-Hassan does not constitute cruel and unusual punishment, you've got to wonder what does
12:24
There is another story around today which perhaps is not going to get quite as much attention as it would do ordinarily and it constitutes almost a counterpoint to what we are discussing. It involves the award earlier this morning of the latest Nobel Prize for Peace and the recipient of it could not be more suitable and appropriate given what we've been discussing for the last hour and we will, Simon and I will explain why after this
12:53
I don't know if irony is an appropriate word to use to describe the fact that we mentioned this as we process news that he is intending to live stream the execution of the terrorist responsible for the Fort Hood shootings
13:09
I did quite a few people reminding us Simon that the killer Nidal Hassan was paralyzed during that attack He will be in a wheelchair He is paraplegic So we going to have a live streamed execution of a disabled
13:22
I mean, even more of a grotesque spectacle. I just want to make it clear that the crime that Nidal Hassan committed was absolutely heinous
13:32
I mean, no one is disputing the brutality of what he did
13:36
organized, premeditated murder of 13 people on their army base, 32 others injured, absolutely terrorist in nature, Islamist extremist inspired
13:50
So the question is not whether you are in favour of harsh punishment for this former army major
14:00
The question is whether this kind of grotesque decision to engage in a public execution for reasons that I think are partly rooted in the extremism of Pete Hegseth's particular branch of Christianity and his faith, but also rooted very much in his desire and the desire of President Trump
14:23
who, remember, in the final year of his first term in office
14:27
ordered the execution of 13 death row inmates on the federal death row
14:35
The fastest pace of executions on federal death row that the country had ever seen
14:39
He really wanted to clear as many of them out as possible before he left office, who has spoken approvingly, particularly of the way in which drug traffickers are executed very rapidly sometimes
14:51
in China and in other parts of the Asia-Pacific region. I mean, there is a bloodlust to these people
14:59
that does not in any way obscure the gravity of the crime
15:07
for which Nid al-Hassan has been brought to justice. No, I mean, that's an important point to make
15:13
not least because people will pretend not to understand that. Well, I wonder, because a phrase you often hear
15:19
when you're discussing the very worst of humanity in politics, is it upsets all the right people
15:25
So that's all they have, really, people like Hegseth and Trump and their closest acolytes, and indeed the propagandists
15:30
who are now the only, quotes, media, end quotes, figures who are allowed into their orbit
15:34
It upsets all the right people. It's really owning the libs. And I also just don't buy the argument
15:39
that this is somehow going to mobilise support of the midterm elections for Republican candidates
15:43
I think the flip side is that actually it's going to redouble the efforts of Democrats to turn out
15:49
and try and make sure some of these Republican lawmakers don't return to be out. Because of what you've articulated, because of the sense that this is even worse
15:55
and goes even deeper than anything that's gone before. It's profoundly un-American in modern era terms
16:03
As I say, 90 years since the last public execution in the United States
16:08
60 years since the first military firing squad has been put together
16:12
And, you know, everything about this is just yet another example of how profoundly un-American the people who profess to be loyal American patriots and visionaries truly are
16:28
Every accusation is a projection. I know it sounds a bit glib that, but they are literally doing all of the things
16:33
You even mentioned it with the talk of civilizational destruction in Europe. They're doing all of the things that they falsely accuse their political, well, I would say rivals historically, but they're beginning to look like sworn enemies of doing falsely
16:47
Hang on a sec. I just want to offer up that counterpoint that I mentioned a moment ago, because because the Nobel Peace Prize this morning in Norway, although as they announced it, they said that the recipient, a woman whose voice you will hear shortly called Navi Pillay, didn't know she'd won it
17:03
So the advice that the chair of the board was giving to her, if she was listening, was if you see a Norwegian number flashing up on your phone, then answer it
17:11
And here is Navi Pillay, if you're not familiar with her work from about 12 years ago, making some opening remarks at the United Nations in 2014
17:20
I deeply deplore the fact that approximately 20 states still execute people, often in direct violation of international human rights standards
17:34
Why should we aim for universal abolition? I see three main reasons
17:40
Firstly, rights. The death penalty is not reconciliable with human rights starting with the right to life
17:51
Many countries whose people have been the victims of the most heinous crimes and violations
17:56
have abolished the death penalty or do not use it They are pursuing justice but respect the right to life
18:05
a right that cannot be negated by the thirst for vengeance And that award has been made on the morning that the rest of the world is processing the news from the United States of America
18:17
Navi Pillai is of Indian Tamil descent, a South African jurist, whose long and extraordinary career stretches right back to defending Nelson Mandela
18:27
Most recently, she led a United Nations commission that investigated the war in Gaza and found that Israel had committed genocide against Palestinians
18:35
something that didn't appear too prominently in the citations, but which the chair of the Norwegian committee, Jorgen Votna Fridnes, has subsequently made clear was a large part of their contemplations
18:46
But it's interesting today, Simon, not because of this award, but because of a job she had previously until relatively recently
18:54
Everything about Navi Pillay winning the Nobel Peace Prize is going to get under Donald Trump's skin
19:00
Today, as we've been pointing out, she is a former head of the International Commission Against the Death Penalty
19:07
So there is clearly a coincidence of timing in terms of that award being given
19:13
It is a coincidence, to be clear. This isn't petulance on Trump's part or anything like that
19:17
But there are other reasons why her receiving this award is going greatly to irritate him
19:24
Because as United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, she argued again and again and again that there should be no immunity for prosecutions when it came to war crimes and acts of genocide
19:40
that may have been committed around the world by foreign troops. And those of course in the context of Iraq and Afghanistan included US members of the military And Donald Trump and indeed Pete Hegseth
19:59
not only have zealously pushed back against any notion that American military personnel should ever be held responsible
20:06
for the excesses that were committed in places like Abu Ghraib, that were committed more broadly in the Iraq conflict
20:16
for war crimes that they have been accused of. And Navi Pillai, as someone who has taken to the world stage
20:24
and insisted that there must be accountability, she's also been a vigorous critic of President Donald Trump's plan for Gaza
20:34
you know, the Board of Peace proposal for Trump-Gaza, a voluble defender of the rights of Palestinian civilians in Gaza
20:45
and the rights more broadly of Palestinians to pursue their own self-determination
20:52
And the other reason why this is going to stick in Donald Trump's craw so badly is because his government at the moment is basically in an undeclared war with South Africa
21:03
South Africa has been disinvited from the G20 summit that he's going to be holding
21:07
at his golf club in Doral in Florida that Andy Burnham will be attending
21:12
Indeed, the only world leader so far who has come out and said, I'm not going if South Africa isn't going, is Vladimir Putin
21:20
The Russians, invited now by Donald Trump to attend the G20, have said only if the South Africans are allowed to attend this summit
21:28
He's made up, Donald Trump, these completely concocted claims that there is an unreported white genocide taking place
21:36
The only refugees allowed into America at the moment are white Africanians
21:40
This concocted claim that the South African government is actively expropriating white farms without compensation, something that has not happened once in South Africa under the new Expropriation Act that has been passed
21:56
And his ambassador to South Africa, far right figure by the name of Brent Bozell, who in a previous incarnation has very much been one of the inspirations for the battle against the fake news media that Donald Trump and Pete Hakeseth are pursuing
22:15
He's the new US ambassador to South Africa. He's only been there a matter of months
22:20
They've had to call him into the Ministry of Foreign Affairs now three times for a carpeting because he keeps overstepping his bounds and making avowedly political interventions in the country where he is supposed to be acting diplomatically
22:35
So for every reason in the book, this is going to drive Donald Trump bananas
22:39
And well, but it also every single thing we've said in the course of the last half an hour or so enforces that idea of exploding norms, because there is an ambassador who is riding roughshod over the norms and expectations of his role
22:53
You then have the United Nations, which are flawed and imperfect, though it is, tries on a global stage to introduce those norms and those guardrails against barbarism and against the feral nature of humans by, for example, calling for a universal ban on death penalties
23:10
All of these things that could loosely be described as civilizational advances, Donald Trump and Pete Hegseth and their supporters are seeking to undo
23:20
And of course, I mean, well, I'll ask you finally why you think they've done it in terms of the midterms, in terms of because whether it works or not is immaterial
23:31
The motivation behind it with January the 6th in the rearview mirror and the midterms on the road ahead
23:37
I think all of this is a projection of where they intend to take the country, regardless of the outcome of the midterms
23:45
nothing Democrats are going to be able to do in the House or the Senate if they win control of one or both of them to head any of this off
23:54
because this is all sort of presidential executive authority. Donald Trump is the commander in chief of the U.S. military
24:01
Nidal Hassan was prosecuted by a military tribunal. He's in Fort Leavenworth. I mean, he will be conveyed to Fort Hood for this public execution by firing squad at the beginning of December
24:13
They're doing it because they can and because they want to demonstrate that their ambitions to continue on this high octane, far right direction, the trajectory along which they have taken the United States since Donald Trump returned to power in January of last year with no restraining voices in his ear, no members of his cabinet who are not true believers
24:40
Nobody in the inner circle who is able to walk into that Oval Office and say
24:44
hang on a minute, are you absolutely sure you want to do this
24:48
There's none of that. And there will not be any of that going forward
24:52
They are determined to keep going no matter what happens on November 3rd, midterm election day
24:58
That line in, I think it's Hemingway, about bankruptcies starting first slowly, then quickly
25:04
It feels appropriate today, doesn't it? It's hard to believe this has all happened
25:08
I mean, it is like the proverbial frog in the saucepan. I mean, and, you know, what I think people have will will in the United States continue to have to decide what's the ticket, the tipping point for each individual person before they say, you know, enough is enough now
25:27
I mean, what at what point do we start seeing? This is an really significant protests and demonstrations
25:33
It still strikes me as being extraordinary that, you know, when you think of the Vietnam era, it was protesters descending on the White House every single night, whether it was LBJ in there or Richard Nixon, forcing their hand over Vietnam
25:47
We still have, other than the No Kings protests, which I know have been well attended, but, you know, they're here today, gone tomorrow demonstrations
25:56
It's extraordinary the extent to which you can keep raising the heat in that saucepan and the frog doesn't do very much
26:02
Simon thank you and you are a scrupulously impartial and objective journalist
26:08
for which everybody remains eternally grateful to you but I think you'll allow me to say
26:13
I can tell that this one has broken through your journalistic guardrails
26:17
I think it's a very concerning moment I think it's a concerning moment in American history
26:21
I think this is just a page being turned on a lighter note any early thoughts on who might win the FIFA Peace Prize this year
26:29
LAUGHTER
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