Chopper's Political Podcast Episode 106: Jessica Asato and Sir Edward Leigh

Coming up on Chopper's Political Podcast

My only argument with reform, by the way, this is me speaking personally, is that I'm more right-wing than them

Welcome back to Chopper's Political Podcast, where I bring you the best guest gossip, news and stories from our studios

at GB News here in the heart of Westminster. My name is Christopher Hope. I am GB News' political editor

We've got a great show for you this week. Later, I'll be talking to my brilliant colleagues, Olivia Utley and Catherine Forster

about what on earth may happen next. I think we're on the edge of a big wave breaking over Westminster

And where will it leave Keir Starmer, Andy Burnham, Wes Streeting? So much to discuss. That's all about next week's Makerfield by-election

Also, we're talking to Sir Edward Lee, elected 43 years ago to Parliament this week

He is the father of the House of Commons, the Tory MP for Gainsborough, and he's got some advice for Kevin Benock and Nigel Farage

You won't want to miss that. My first guest is a Labour MP for Lois Doft, Jess Azato

She is taking on Elon Musk in a battle over Grok and AI and nudification

Let's hear what she has to say. Joining me now is Jess Asato, the Labour MP for Lower Stuff

Thank you for coming in and joining us, Jess, on the Chopper's political podcast today

The government has announced, your leader has announced, Sir Keir Starmer, to stop children taking naked pictures with their phones

At least he'll do that in three months with the law if these companies don't do it in the first place

Is that a good thing? You must welcome that. Oh, absolutely. It's something that me and many other colleagues in Parliament, but also much of the children's sector have been campaigning for for a number of years now

Actually, this is not new. We've known that children have been able to take these pictures, but also they've been receiving them in droves as well

And it is hugely traumatising children. often they think that they're sharing pictures of themselves with other children so they might

have a romantic interest and suddenly of course they discover it's a 45 year old man. And 91

of these images are created by the children aren't they in the child abuse? That's absolutely right

and of course if you can see a mechanism by which child sexual abuse is happening in front of you

then it's absolutely our duty as a society to stop it at all

stop it at the tool that enables this image to be created

So I'm so excited about the fact the government has moved quickly on this

And prior to coming to Parliament, I worked for the children's sector. So it feels like a pretty momentous thing

It's taken a time though, hasn't it? I think the technology has been there for a bit. Jess Phillips, the former safeguarding minister, she was keen on it

Why is Sir Kiyosama woken up to this concern only now, only two years into being Prime Minister

Well, I actually think, to the government's credit, they have actually been working on trying to find the solutions to this for a while

Of course, every day that goes by that a child is able to do this

and to receive these images is a day that children are harmed. So I'm just really grateful that we've got that

Yeah, and the pledge to pass or to draft or maybe a proposal

law in a few months time or do it yourselves now is that speedily enough why not do here's a law now

we'll start it through parliament and that'll be your clock ticking to the sector well we all know

that getting law through is actually you know it takes quite a long time so i much prefer it if you

know the the tech companies were just put in place today that'd be much faster wouldn't it we know

that apple already does it yeah and technology is there it's easy to do and if they do it tomorrow

then our children will be prevented from being harmed. The briefing from the Home Office to journalists was horrific

I mean, the things that we were told, reporters were told about really, really hammered home

why it's so important. It's not nudity, it's sexortation, you know, it's self-harm

It's everything, isn't it? That's absolutely right. So I have a case in my constituency of a 13-year-old girl

He thought that she was chatting to a teenage boy and sent pictures and then was threatened

with sharing those images to friends, family and so forth and was essentially then groomed for more pictures

until she plucked up the courage and got to the police. Similarly, I spoke to a mum who said that her child at age 13

was sent pictures of anatomy and it became so frequent that the girl as she aged used to put a little sombrero hat on it

send it back to the sender and then block them. It was a way of almost like reclaiming some sort of sense of fun

over what is really grim. And the mum said she's never going to be able to not see those images

That's not what a 13-year-old girl should see. And so, you know, whether it is children taking images of themselves

or being sent images, this is going to be a really good step forward. I don't know why children take pictures of themselves

Nude. Well, children are interested in what everyone else does. And of course, pornography has been absolutely prolific for, you know, decades now online

Children will show each other the things that they know they're not meant to because that's what they do

I don't know in your day, all the boys used to, you know, have a mag that they used to shove into a bus or whatever and get them out and then follow girls around going, you know, look, look, look

And we used to scream and run away and go, you disgusting boy. Disgusting boy. That is, it's curiosity in childhood, isn't it

But there is a real difference between a porn mag and being sent imageries of men

I think the PM has found his voice on this matter. He took on Elon Musk, didn't he, over these Grok images

You were betrayed in a bikini on Grok, weren't you? I mean, that is terribly intrusive for you

I mean, how to deal with that. Yes, and indeed... And it was a response to what you'd been saying online, apparently

So what happened, of course, was that over Christmas and January, the number of requests to grok to create explicit sexual imagery absolutely exploded

And so, you know, there were millions of pieces of content being created of both women and in some cases, children

And I spoke out against it because I'm an MP with a track recorder speaking against violence against women and girls

So I said, well, this is wrong. You know, must just stop it now. other AI tools, don't take these instructions, don't create this imagery

his could do it in the here and now and then of course I then became the victim of the same thing and as a result

I wanted to get those images taken down because X wouldn't Lawyer wrote a letter and then said to me, by the way we think you might

actually have a case against XAI here, do you want to talk about it? And of course

last week we served some papers indeed to take Elon Musk and XAI

Because the publisher is Grok or Musk, is that right? Because the problem with Twitter has always been they're not a publisher, they're just a content provider

So you have to go after the person who made the, if it's a libel or if it's an image of you, for example

So it not to do necessarily with the publishing but of course some of the legals will be got into It actually in my case to do with data protection and not protecting my data but also not protecting my privacy

And that is something that we're going to be obviously focused on as we go forward

And you've raised how much? A crowdfunder, I'm imagining? So we haven't set up a crowd funder as yet, but I'm very fortunate to have an agreement with my lawyer where it will be a no win, no fee basis

So it could be just as art over as Elon Musk. Well, XAI, certainly

XAI, the company which he helped create. One of the other reasons I'm doing this is because it is so very difficult for ordinary citizens to be able to uphold their rights

when you've got tech companies that are literally billions and billions of pounds

How do you feel when you saw that image of you? It must have been a heck of a shock if you weren't ready for it

Well, I'll be honest. I have been working with victims of deep-fake pornography for many, many years

So it was more of a sort of resigned anger that this had finally happened to me

The video that was created was the one that was really disturbing

It was a video of me being surrounded by a group of men and chloroformed and then my fainting backwards and my skirts being lifted up

Wow, that's actually an assault, right? Yeah, well, it was precluded to an assault

And that's what really made me feel pretty violated and concerned. The bikini pictures, lots of people say, oh, it's fun

You know, it's just a bit of banter, like, what's wrong with you? Just get a laugh, you know

But the problem is that in the street, nobody would be able to come up to me and strip off my coat and my scarf, which was in my profile picture, and put me in a bikini

No. There is something quite violating about that because I've not chosen

I've not chosen to be in a bikini. I'm a public figure and I wouldn't put myself in a bikini as my profile picture

I wouldn't put it on social media. That is not what I would choose to do. And so it's a violation of my consent

I haven't consented for this to happen to me. And I think there's a broader conversation about our image-based rights

of which, you know, there's a lot of debate because, of course, politicians, absolutely, there should be parody and satire

But I really challenge any listener to really justify why putting someone in a bikini is parody or satire

I mean, it could be contextually, depending on the situation. If Marx, I don't know, it's a very developing legal area

Yeah. Well, we're yet to hear from this government on what they'll do with social media and children

It could happen, maybe. That's next week. I don't know. I mean, there's all sorts of rumours about a ban on social media for under 16

And it seems the government's been going this way and that. They're trying to watch what the example is in Australia, but that's not very clear

I think some children are getting around the ban, we've been told on GB News, or using so-called VPNs to do the same thing or maybe not be clear about their age and say they're older than they are

Where do you sit on the ban? I hope that actually the government goes further than the Australia ban

because at the moment Australia only has a number of social media platforms

whereas the consultation actually went into things like gaming and VPNs, as you say

into things like AI chatbots as well as social media platforms. And really what we want to do is to make sure that children cannot access harmful content

across the whole wide range of online services. and yes Australia has seen some children get around the rules partly because some of the

social media companies haven't really stepped up to prevent them from being on there but you know

60% of children can't get on and this is a generational shift so even if your sort of 15

year old is still able to get there actually your 11, 12, 13 year old has got a new sort of standard

So parents can say, uh-uh, you know, you're not going on social media

But also, do you know what? You don't actually need a smartphone. Why don't you just..

Live your life. Oh, goodness me. Have your childhood back. Get on your bike

Go have a good time. Ride around with your friends. Take some risks in the real world

And be bored. And don't look at your phone. That's what we all did in our childhood

Indeed. We could probably learn from that as well. Oh, yes. Well, that's my point

My point was that. I mean, I was talking to someone on the channel on air

and they were saying how they saw these children leave school, get their phone out of their pocket and look at their phone as they left

And they were being critical. I remember saying, well, surely if your phone is taken away from you for five hours

the first thing you do is you're back on it like I am. And aren't they just copying us

I mean, aren't we to blame? I mean, part of it is surely parental

well, all of life is to blame on parents maybe. But sitting on this one, shouldn't we set a better example

I mean, me and you. and the wider all of this is? I think we absolutely could. Absolutely we should do

And it's not good for us either. Our attention spans we know in adults

are creeping backwards. But for children, of course, there is the protective factor here

And I think all of the evidence, overwhelmingly from our royal colleges

through to our parents and to our teachers, shows that this is harmful technology

And so I'm really looking forward to what the government's going to announce. Now, Jess, I know that people listening to this

who are parents will be saying, it's all right for you to say all this from your ivory tower in your podcast

but how do you do it? How do you do it? You're a parent of children. I won't get any further details for their privacy

but how do you police phones at home? Well, look, I am just as desperate as many parents are

My children have not yet got to the stage, but we're very, very close to going

into the secondary era of our lives. When they become available, everyone has them in separate

Well, everyone has them. And I have said very clearly to my eldest

that she is not going to be getting a smartphone. And that has been greeted by much eye rolling

But she also knows that this is what I focus on in Parliament. I know about all the harms

Sometimes she says, Mum, I wish you weren't. My mum, you know too much about this

But I talk to parents all the time in my constituency and unanimously they say, please, just give us the tools collectively

Because one parent like me saying to my daughter, you can't have it

then gets worn down when all the other kids get it. And you do then end up thinking, oh, goodness me

what are they missing out on? Am I damaging them some other way by not allowing them to be part of this

Well, that example was... That was actually the example used by the government last November

When we said to them, will you go follow Australia down this track? They said, well, we don't want children to miss out

on the good things of social media, the good things of the internet

Oh, they don't have to miss out on the good things of the internet. But we're going online now, aren't we

So much of public service is going online. Yeah, yeah. You don't need to access that on social media, do you

I mean, there's still going to be Google. There's still going to be loads of amazing websites. You can still look at Wikipedia

To be honest, there's a bit of me that thinks that everyone's just, you know, gone

oh, if you ban social media, then you're locking out the whole of the internet

Remember, we used to not have social media, but we did have the internet

and we could find out cool things. We could also join groups. So, you know, there's lots and lots of different groups out there for children, young people

but that have much better protections. I think there is a question about how do we build that up so that communities that children might want to join that are not harmful but might be you know within their sort of sphere of interest maybe Dungeons and Dragons or whatever it might be yes that those are created in safe online spaces rather than in social media which of course was

wasn't created for children none of these platforms were ever designed with children

that's the point they're wrapped they're wrapped that they're they're wrapped like the child

snatcher in bang bang you know it looks like a sweet shop in fact it's not it's a prison I mean

I think in a sense it's wrapped in a way to make it look attractive to children

That's what it's addictive by design, right? It's a grown-up place. Yeah, and if you think about everything else we do for our children

all the way through their childhood, we buy age-appropriate toys, we make sure that they watch age-appropriate films

If they get into gaming, that's PEGI-rated. All of that has gone through heavy child development expertise

But when it comes to online, we're almost like, Well, it's an adult world and there you go

Well, that's ridiculous, isn't it? Yeah. Why would we stop them from watching nudity, for example, in a film

because we don't think they're ready, but then they can access it on their smartphone within a few seconds

When it's in their pocket. Much more personal engagement. Let's just make sure that the rules online are the same as the rules offline

For me, that just feels very, very simple. Critics would say you're encouraging censorship

You'd say it's child protection. Well, in which case, why do we have age ratings on films

that is censorship for children to protect children because children develop at different

times and actually for a long long time as a society we've said there are certain things that

are not appropriate for our children until they reach you know adulthood or 15 or 12a well i think

it's really important that we listen to the child experts on what is appropriate but also on these

social media platforms of course really they're advertising platforms and all they're doing is

pushing algorithmically the things that just keep the kids addicted and addicted and unfortunately

much of that is pretty violent yeah uh it is sexualized yeah um or it's things that we've just

don't want them to see you know constant videos of you know girls who are getting ever skinnier

or for boys it's all about you know taking protein shakes or do you know what i mean it's just

it's too much and finally jess you have a campaign called stop ai abuse that's right and we're

calling on people to join the campaign, sign the petition. And of course, for anybody who's been listening

who might have been affected by image manipulation through Grok or any other AI manipulation tool

my lawyers have said that they'd be happy for people to come forward for a chat to see whether it might just be about getting those images removed

or looking at whether you could join the legal action. Do you want a class action

We don't have class actions in the UK, But certainly, claimants can be part of the same endeavour

You've been MP for barely, not even two years. Now you're taking on Elon Musk in the court

Is this what you thought you'd be doing when you set out on this journey in politics? Oh, no, not really

But I did know that when I got into Parliament, if I did, I would be championing the voices of women and children

and that is what I'm doing today. OK. Jess, as I'll tell you, come back on

Let us know how it's going. Have you got a court date yet? No. So it's a long way away

Yeah, and civil courts will move relatively slowly. But we'll come back once we've got some news for you

A line is being drawn in the sand. Well, let's see how it goes. Good luck

Jess Azato there. Jess Azato there. Now, my next guests are my colleagues at GB News

and our political team. Olivia Utley, our political correspondent, and, of course, Catherine Forster

our chief political correspondent. Welcome both to the podcast. Great to have you here

It's your first time here, Olivia. Very exciting. It's brilliant to have you here. I want to look ahead

at the next 10 days in politics because so much may happen

I'm thinking, of course, about the by-election that dare not speak its name

or it's difficult to speak its name without really a whole list of candidates

on a regulated news channel. But on a podcast, we can talk about the Makerfield by-election

Why not? It's so free. It's all anyone's talking about. And when you walk around Parliament

they're saying, have you met up to Makerfield? Who's going to win? For me, it feels like

is looking more like Labour than reform, just on anecdotal conversations from what you're hearing from the two sides

But we don't know. It seems, though, it's basically a two-party race. Labour against reform in Makerfield

And it matters so much. Let's just look at what may happen next week

To you first, Livia, your first time here, what happens if Labour win

The Labour candidate is Andy Burnham. Well, I think it is by far the most likely outcome

that Andy Burnham does win. It looks as though Labour is ahead by about 10 points in some polls

Labour campaigners there are sounding very, very bullish about the whole thing

partly because the reform vote has been split by Rupert Lowe's party, Restore Britain

coming in at the last minute. Andy Burnham is feeling very, very confident

Question of what happens next. Now, Andy Burnham has made no secret in his whole political career

that one day he would quite like to become prime minister. and actually last week he said what we've all known for a very long time now

that he will fight in the leadership election, which is coming down the line

Would he do it immediately? Well, Catherine and I were discussing this earlier. I think it would look a bit sort of indecent if after campaigning you make a feel

looking as though he cares so much about this constituency. I mean, perhaps he does, but we know that he's there because he'd like to be prime minister

I don't think he'll launch a leadership election immediately. No. I think what's quite likely to happen if Andy Burnham wins is that Keir Starmer does a major reshuffle of his cabinet

That would sort of be a dead cat strategy. Stop people talking about Makerfield

Stop people talking about Andy Burnham for a bit. Reboot the government. Buy him a bit of time. Exactly

There's a lot of dead work. But does he have the authority for that? I'm not sure he does. I'm not sure. I think people might just go, no, I'm not doing that

No, I'm not leaving. There's a possibility of that. But I do think there's quite a few people who he can't really afford to leave on the back benches

Angela Rayner, for example, is becoming such a big problem for him. Andy Burnham, I mean, whatever you think of him politically

he is a good political talent. He has a lot of experience. I think Keir Stammer, for obvious reasons

would quite like to bring him in. Better to have him inside the tent than out a bit

And Cathy Forster, can he be both the mayor of Greater Manchester

and in the Cabinet and an MP? Because that job is vacant

He is the sitting Greater Manchester mayor, isn't he? I mean, there might be an election we've heard the end of July

is moot as a date for that. Yes, we just don't know. I think it's worth considering the possibility, of course, that Labour do not win this by-election

It does feel, like Olivia has said, that they are increasingly confident

Apparently, they've knocked every door, I think, about five times. It feels like the whole epicentre of British politics is not in Westminster anymore

It's up in Makerfield. And trying to have coffees with Labour MPs is getting trickier

because they're either off to make a field, in make a field, or about to go to make a field

But, you know, if Labour lost this, it would be absolutely existential and beyond

Hello, I'm Bev Turner. Now, it can feel like the money in our bank accounts at the moment

does not keep up with the cost of living. And maybe there's a solution

I'm here today with the CEO of Tally Money, Cameron Parry. Cameron what is Tally Money Well Bev with Tally Money you get a current account and a debit card but instead of pounds you use milligrams of gold as your everyday money So why gold Gold traditionally is a great store of value It has on average gone up at over 11

per annum for the last 25 years against the pound. It's tripled in value in the last decade

And in the last two years alone, it's increased by 50% against the pound

Banks' savings products just can't compete with that level of growth. But this isn't just about gold

This is about a currency that you guys have created at Tally Money

Explain it to me as though I'm an idiot. So, look, people need to be able to hold their earnings

and build their savings in a money that retains its value and remains in their legal control

and remains theirs to access away from government control. Great. You had me at not exposed to government control

You should feel safe and happy with your money. You should have peace of mind. The more money you see in your bank balance, and that's the type of thing we're trying to deliver, and give people choice in the type of money they get to use every day

Brilliant. Thank you so much, Cameron. Thank you. if live if live is saying labour if labour win live says there'll be a there'd be a reshuffle

but of course yes you say i mean what will happen next if burnham loses he goes back to

manchester stays on as the mayor what does the labour left do are they off to the greens will

there'd be 20, maybe 20 Labour MPs become Green MPs because they think I can't stay in this party

anymore? Well, we could do. And I think the sort of collective nervous breakdown that the Labour

Party had after the local elections and what happened in Scotland and Wales would be magnified

because if the most popular Labour politician in the country cannot win in his own backyard

and bear in mind he is local, part of his old constituency, Lee, is now in the Makerfield

constituency. His kids went to secondary school there. What hope is there for the Labour Party? I think it would be on a level

with a sort of extinction level event, perhaps, that the Tories encountered

It would show Labour they can't win in a seat, which is pro-Brexit, which is

his ugly dare seat. If they can't win there, how can they take reform

If they can't win with Andy Burnham in his backyard? Yeah, but I don't think that. But if Andy Burnham wins

in a seat that's heavily Brexit, that almost means that the Brexit debates are over

It means that maybe Labour can win in Brexity seats. It may mean that even a pro-EU candidate

can win in a Brexit seat. And it may support the idea of getting close

to the European Union in a macro level. Maybe. I think that's extrapolating a bit too far

I think that there are people in Makerfield who would vote for Andy Burnham because they want to get rid of Keir Starmer

They might not like what he stands for really at all, but they might just think that the best way to get Keir Starmer out of government

It's a very odd situation that you've got Labour MPs essentially, I mean, saying it quietly, but basically trying to get the vote out for Andy Burnham

trying to get people to vote Labour to get rid of the Labour prime minister. That's the situation we're in

I think it is worth saying that whatever happens, whether Labour win or reform win

I think we are facing a Labour leadership contest. Andy Burnham will join it if he wins, most certainly

He might give it a week or two for decency's sake, to look at how he cares about the people at Makerfield

But he will go for it. Wes Treating will go for it too. Again, he's made no secret of his political ambition

Can he win the support of 81 MPs? Can he win the support of 81 MPs? I think he probably can win the support of 81 MPs

I think if Andy Burnham is in the ring, which he probably will be

then he couldn't win overall. I think if Andy Burnham doesn't win

I agree with Catherine. Labour is facing an existential crisis. But before that, I think you've got someone

on the Labour left, whether it's Ed Miliband or Angela Rayner, who decides to put their name forward

And it would be a really, really ugly contest. And let's not forget, Keir Starmer himself would be fighting it too

Yes, that's been made clear, I think, today in briefings. And we couldn't hear it anyway from his language

but his name goes automatically onto the ballot in the vote of MPs

Does his name stay on the members' ballot too? He goes straight through to the members' ballot

So his name is always there. So whoever wins has to be an incumbent sitting Labour PM

You make that sound harder than... Well, because only Tony Blair and he have ever won, who are alive now, have ever won elections

He's an election-winning Labour PM. It's a big thing to remove him. Well, it is, but he says he's going to fight

And yes, we heard that in the lobby briefing after PMQs today. Again, he's going nowhere. He's got a mandate

You know, he believes he needs to deliver on that. But at the same time, he would say that, wouldn't he

I mean, my personal feeling is if that Andy Burnham didn't win the seat, then he will definitely stand

But if Andy Burnham does win in Makerfield and potentially by some margin, do we really believe that the prime minister is going to stand

We would then have weeks and weeks of uncertainty. But then again, where's Streetie? Where's Streetie? Where's Streetie

He has already said he is going to stand because a coronation is not a good idea

And I think people will look at Andy Burnham and think, yeah, you maybe have been a good mayor of Greater Manchester

People like you. You've got the gift of the gab. You're a good communicator. But are you ready to lead the country

And I think there are some suggestions from things we've seen in the media in the last week or two that there are real question marks over that

For example, he gave a difficult interview on another channel last week where he was asked to remind us about the fiscal rules

He said he wouldn't be examined upon them, but it left the doubt that did he know what the fiscal rules are

Because he's really worried about the bond markets. We shouldn't be in hot to the bond markets, he said last September, and that prompted concern on the markets

Essentially, what this government has done, and the Tories did it too, is put all the costs of the COVID pandemic

Ukraine, half a trillion quid on the country's overdraft. And the bank is saying

well, you can't borrow any more. And Rachel Reeves has actually kept the fiscal purse pretty tight

And some people say that, you know, she's the only thing standing between us and a run on the pound

So in some circles, she is actually quite popular. If Andy Burnham became prime minister

would all that end? Who would become his chancellor? That said, I'm not sure how much

he could actually do having one under this Labour manifesto, essentially. Can I just also say, I think it is worth talking about what happens to reform if reverse loses

Sorry, thank you. Well, no, no, yeah, yeah. Well, I think so. I mean, if, yeah, what happens to reform

Reform. So we should also say that on June the 18th, there are three by-elections next week

South Aberdeen, Arbroath and Brody Ferry and Makerfield. We're looking at Makerfield because that may decide who's next prime minister

South Aberdeen, the Tories are quite close, I understand, to the SNP

Arbroath and Brody Ferry, SNP win. But there is a world, there is a world when the SNP win Arborth and Bortley Ferry

the Tories win South Aberdeen and Labour win Makerfield. And suddenly that's a bit of a corrective to the reform advance

I mean, it's worth just sitting back and thinking Friday morning could be not a great morning for Nigel Farage

if he doesn't win any of these by-elections. Olivia? Well, particularly when reform did so well in those local elections in the area of Makerfield and in Wigan

and essentially went turquoise during the local elections. So what would happen to reform

I think it would be a really tricky sort of existential question for them. And the thing about reform is because there's so much on the ascent

as soon as there is one bad by-election, sort of one bad moment, then the Westminster bubble starts talking about momentum dropping

And that is the last thing reform wants. That's a bit what we saw last summer. They reached a real peak in the polls

And then they started going down. People said that they were losing momentum. And sure enough, they basically did lose a bit

So they're still ahead there, by the way. They're still ahead. They're still ahead. Absolutely. And now they've started gaining momentum again because of those local elections

But what I'm saying is that I think a party that is so new, so nascent, really

is so dependent on that sort of wave of popularity, on that wave of momentum

I think it would be really difficult for them if they lost, particularly if they lose because Restore has split the vote

And it looks as though that might be the reason. It may be Restore, yeah. But that's right, Catherine

Libya's right with Restore. I mean, they may win seven, eight, nine points in a make-up by-election

That's enough to stop them winning the seat. Again, we go back to this strange split in politics, don't we

Well, Restore could do to reform in the Makefield by-election exactly what reform did to the Conservatives in the general election

splitting the vote on the right and helping Labour to will in the general election

A massive majority, but a pretty levelist landslide, as somebody called it

I think it is a real issue because Restore, there's a huge online presence

Rupert Lowe has got the support of Elon Musk, who, of course, owner of X, has an enormous megaphone

And I think this... He's not British, is he? We'd have to think about him all the time, but we do

Well, no, but he's very loud and he's got a big influence on this platform that we all are on

I mean, OK, maybe journalists and politicians on X more. But, you know, he has a big presence and a big voice

And I think the feeling before Makerfield, was that this was a sort of online-only thing

and that, you know, outside of Great Yarmouth, it wasn't really going to cut through

And yet, despite the fact that the candidate has been very quiet

I don't think she's given any interviews, certainly won't talk to us

I should say we've offered to give her a platform on the channel

and they won't take it restored. But Rupert Lowe is deeply unhappy with reform

because he feels he was treated very badly. They did insinuate that he had dementia

He says that they tried to get him into jail. So I think this is his revenge

This is his revenge. And it is something that he is going to massively enjoy

And if it means that reform do not win that seat, I think he will relish him

But of course, this is only one seat. But what could that mean if Ristal were able to replicate that on a scale

I think it's a big if over there. On the other parties, most people think all the other parties lose their deposit

This is one of those seats where it is. Conservatives on 1%, I believe. But I think people will vote for Restore because they don't think that reform are hardline enough

But I think other than that, Greens, Lib Dems, Tories will just go

do I want Andy Burnham as Prime Minister or don't I? And that will be what's true. Olivia

I agree. I think that, I wonder if there'll be frustration amongst right wing voters generally

if in Maker Field Andy Burnham sweeps to some sort of mega victory

And then you're looking at a situation where Kemi Badenoch is actually doing pretty well in the polls now

That's not necessarily always reflected in the Conservative Party's polling. But there is no doubt that the Conservatives are picking up a little bit of that momentum

Then you've got Restore, also gathering momentum. And then you've got Reform, who have been popular for a long time now

You could see a situation where the vote on the right gets split three ways

And in a general election, you could end up with that looking like a Labour, a hung parliament with a Labour as the largest party propped up by the Greens

I think right wing voters will be terrified of that prospect and will think, is it time that those three parties or at least two of them talk about joining together

Well, that is so interesting because the next conversation on this podcast is with Sir Edward Leeds

It's just that very point. Just finally, before you both go, who's going to win the Megaford by-election? Catherine

Andy Burnham but I don know when he going to move against the Prime Minister Will he stay to try to get Labour elected in the mayoral election Olivia you right there Well it boring but I going to say Andy Burnham as to I think he going to be on it in a couple of weeks because he knows that West Streeting will do it if he doesn

Or maybe he'll wait for West Streeting to move. And leadership campaign this summer? Leadership campaign

Before the autumn starts? I think so, yeah. For conference. Okay. And guess what

It all plays out live on GB News and you guys are talking about it for our viewers

Thank you, Catherine. Here we go again. Thank you, Olivia. Here we go again. Olivia Utley, of course, and Catherine Foster there. Thank you both

Now, my next guest is Sir Edward Lee. He's the father of the House of Commons, elected 43 years ago this week, the MP for Gainsborough

And he's seen a lot of politics in that time. And he thinks it's about time, frankly, as Olivia and Catherine were discussing

that maybe the parties of the right come together. With me now is Sir Edward Lee

the father of the House of Commons How long have you been an MP for Sir Edward? 43 years yesterday Wow

On the day that Mrs Thatcher won her glorious landslide on the 9th of June 1983

Goodness gracious Well congratulations on that amazing public service You've been around a bit

You've seen how politics has waxed and waned over that time but you've never known I guess five party politics

No I think there's a real possibility that we could have five parties in the next parliament

each with a large number of MPs. It could be chaos. It could be like Birmingham. Yes, like Birmingham

Now. Oh, like now. You mean... Birmingham after the county council elections

where it's pretty well ungovernable because no party has a majority, or like the National Assembly in France

So it could be very interesting. And how do we deal with that? We are a two-party system normally

That's why we have the opposition and the governing party. Normally it's Labour versus Tory and vice versa

So how do we deal with this? How will the right deal with this? Well, my personal view is in the first parts of the post system

if you have two or now three right-wing parties all competing for votes in every single constituency

as night follows day, there will be another Labour government. So there has to be some sort of accommodation

to ensure that we don't split the vote in all these constituencies

Are you alone in thinking this? No, I think every Tory MP or most of them realise this is inevitable

I agree. Some of them, like me, think that we should have an accommodation fairly soon

before candidates start to be selected. Others think that we should wait till just before the election

Yep. And others think that we should have an accommodation after the election

The trouble with having an accommodation after the election is that we might be reduced, each of our parties, to 60 or 70 MPs

and there'll be another Labour government. And can you imagine that the official opposition could be even more left wing

Yes. So where we are now, of the 120 or so Tory MPs, how many of them now want this combination to be talked about

Two dozen? A dozen? I mean, yeah, I don't know. It might be a dozen. It may be two dozen

But can I just explain it this way? Last time we were completely stuffed, the Conservative Party, because we're formed, what, just 14% of the vote

Nobody thinks they're going to get 14% or less next time. Nobody thinks the Conservative Party is going to get 40% or less

So it's inevitable that if we're fighting each other in every constituency

we're going to lose dozens, scores, hundreds of seats. And maximise the vote for left-wing parties

Exactly. Reform were here. They would say, listen, you're a great man, you accuse service

but you're half the number of votes in the polls compared to reform

or thereabouts. you're the weaker party, so you would want a deal to be done

Reform will say, we don't need you to the Tories. Just hear what I've said

Yeah. Even if we get our derisory 19%, which we're on at the moment

I don't think anybody thinks we're going to get less than that. There will never be a reformed government with an overall majority

Keeps them out. As all the left-wing parties, the Greens, the Liberals, the SNP

they will absolutely ensure, as in Germany, with the Cordon Sanitaire, the AfD

they will ensure that there is no reform government. And can I answer this this way

Our policies to reform the Conservative Party are almost exactly the same With immigration on green My only argument with reform by the way this is me speaking personally is that I more right than them because I a Thatcherite

I think that the triple lock is unaffordable. I think we should reform the National Health Service

By the way, all the things that Nigel Farage used to believe in. But of course, now he wants to gain power

He wants to get the votes of working-class people. I don't mind all that. So my only argument with reform

is they're not quite right-wing enough. There's Restore UK as well. Well, there's them, but of course they're even more populist than... Yeah

I don't know whether they're that's right or not. No, but I think they appear to be benefiting, in my mind

from Farage's attempt to move centrewwards. It means he's losing support on the right

That's what's happening. And that could cost him the by-election in Makerfield

So he's in a vice now. We're in a vice between Labour and reform. And now reform is in a vice between the Conservatives and Restore

Yes. Can I just say one thing? I really want to say this. Yes. that our leadership in both parties should stop slagging off each other

Yes. You know, particularly reform leaders say that the Tory party is full of liberals

Am I a liberal? Our most conservative... You are not a liberal, Sir Edward Lee

So, I mean, stop. And I'll say this to Kami, I'll say it tonight. Stop. I agree, have a sort of critique of each other's policies

But be nice, calm down, work out where we all agree, and come to some accommodation

And ego is part of this. there's damaged ego on the Farage side

when he stood down all those MPs, all the candidates in the Brexit party. He never got a thank you, a buy

your leave. And they are bruised and the issue that, and I think with

Kevin Badenow, she says he wants to burn our house down. I won't talk to him

So there's so much chatter. And then Zia Yusuf gets involved and he can't

stand anyone, even the former Tories. I mean, he's got to calm

down a bit. I mean, by the way, I think that Boris treated Nigel very bad

Yes, I think he did. We should have at least said thank you. We should have given up here. We should have made him ambassador to Washington

We should have made him minister for immigration. I mean, you will not find on any tweet

in any speech in the House of Commons, any criticism of reform by me

So is it time then that maybe the Tory party maybe apologised for fast misdemeanours

Would you... I apologise to the Boris wave. They were mitigated. No, but to Nigel Farage for the way he was treated

Say, Nigel, we don't mind you personally. were very sorry that you stood down

all your candidates. I know some of them had to burn their leaflets and

there was real... Apologies don't matter. All that matters is stop living

in the past. Stop hating each other. Funny, it's the old quip that your enemies are

sitting around you and your political opponents are opposite you at the chamber. So just let's get on a bit

and work out for the sake of... The national interest, you would say. Forget what I'm saying

For the national interest. Do you want another Labour government with a huge majority

even more left wing, under Andy Burnham, than we've got at the moment, or do you not

Don't ask me. That's your question for the viewers. That's my message to Nigel and Kenny

And by the way... Will you broker talks? Will you be the broker as the father of the House of Commons

I wait for the call. Yes. We'll call them the Edward Lee peace process

Yeah, I think it's above my pay grades. No, I don't think so. You're the father of the House of Commons

You're the leading, most senior right-wing politician in the House of Commons. I'm very easygoing, you know

I can't... Are you offering now to bring these two together? Yes, I'm offering now to bring these two great people

Kenny and Nigel. This has happened so often. In Congress history, of course

And, of course, they say that they want to destroy the other one

Yes. But, in reality, it's not going to happen anyway, whether they want to do it or not

And in the old days, of course, that the Conservatives was a much bigger breadth of policy areas, wasn't it

I think what's happened is bits have been cleaved off into other parties. Essentially, the Tories are really restore

so reform and the Tory party is where the old Tory party would be. I mean, you know, unlike some

I don't want to criticise any reform current leadership, but unlike some, I wasn't a minister in the last government

I was constantly saying that Boris Wade was a disaster. Yes, you were. I was constantly saying that we should insist on at least... Yes

You like John the Baptist in the wilderness You been saying it for so long I always been in the wilderness I got no reward I don care But it just Now this idea that we hear from some reformed people

that the Tory parliamentary party is full of wet liberals, is this not true

No. Most of us are good, solid conservatives. There are a few. Don't you name any

No, I'm not going to name. They're all colleagues, and they've all got their personal point of view

Yes. But there are very, very few. The idea that there are loads of Tory MPs who would rather be in the Liberal Party is for the birds

Yes. So what happens next then? Talks should start now. Because they're all selecting. I think the reform tell us they want to have their candidate slate ready for an election next May by this coming Christmas

Well, there's such an obvious deal. Reform don't stand in the 117 seats we currently have

We don't stand in their best. Yes. And then you fight out for other ones

If you want to fight out the other ones, you do. I mean, there's ways of doing this, isn't there

Because others might do it. You can imagine the Greens doing a deal with Labour if they keep out Nigel Farage

That's how they would describe it. The less that they do define that is keeping Farage out of number 10

will become part of the debate going into the next election. You can see other parties doing it, can't you

Well, the only hope for the reform, if they really want to get in the government

is the Conservative Party because everybody hates them with a passion and everybody else after the next election

will combine to keep them out of place. And the model is Canada, when in fact the reform, the insurgent party, didn't it

I think it replaced the existing right-wing party and it became one anyway. Exactly

And, yes. I predict that in 10 years' time, there'll be something called the Reformed Conservative Party

Right. I don't know who the leader will be, but it'll be one party again

And we'll all be fighting and we'll certainly start... Because essentially we're used to left and right politics, aren't we

We're not used to the rainbow coalition of politics, which we have at the moment. No, I mean, if we had a PR system and we, you know, you could get the same number of seats for your votes

It's got better first-past-the-post. So if you don't have a relationship, if you don't have a combination, then you will be destroyed by your opponents

Before we wrap up, you're being filmed throughout this. It's a filmed podcast

That's the camera. Will you look down that camera and make your appeal to Nigel and Kemi, please

my appeal to you nigel and kemi is to realize that our policies are almost exactly the same

under a first pastor post system unless we have some sort of alliance as night follows day

kemi and nigel there will be a even more left-wing government so let's work together

and be nice to each other stop criticizing each other and realize that we agree on virtually everything

There we have it. Edward Lee, well, Nigel Farage, Kevin Benkart, you're well to come back

on this very podcast. Sit with us and the Edward Lee peace offering

has been made. I will report on the peace talks if they happen

You measure that. Thank you for joining Edward Lee. You can see

Very amusing interview. I enjoyed it. I may have answered it. Edward Lee there. Thank you

So Edward Lee, thank you and thank you to Catherine Forrest and my colleague and Olivia Utley earlier

and thank you also of course to Jess Azarto thank you all the guests and listeners

this week and of course for those listening and watching to Chopper's political

podcast I tweet at on X email me chopper at gbnews.uk we'd love to hear from what you think of this

podcast and what you think about next week's by-election maybe about the idea of the

right uniting as Sir Edward Lee suggested if you If you've enjoyed this podcast, please do tell your friends

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Thanks to a great team of colleagues behind the podcast, Mick Booker, of course, our editorial director

and the podcast worker bees, Rebecca Newens and George McMillan. But most importantly of all, again, thank you for listening and watching

Until next time, and by the way, next week's a big week. Cheerio