Chopper's Political Podcast Episode 105 - Nick Thomas-Symonds

Coming up on Chopper's political podcast. I think the EU is well used to seeing debates

about Brexit in British politics. I don't really think it makes a big deal of difference

Welcome back to Chopper's political podcast where I bring you the best guest gossip

news and stories from our studios at GB News here in the heart of Westminster

My name is Christopher Hope and I am the channel's political editor. My guest this week is someone who I want to start by thanking

This is the second time he's come on Chopper's political podcast because he never shies away from coming on GB News

Speaking to our listeners and viewers, we do appreciate it. Nick Thomas-Simmers, welcome to Chopper's political podcast

The last time you were here was a year ago. Keir Starmer was holding a UK-EU summit

You are the Minister for the Constitution and European Union Relations. You're the Brexit Minister, aren't you

You must be delighted by that. Well, I think... And the post-Brexit Minister..

It's not a bad word in the evening. ...to describe myself. Are you? No, no. You use the word Brexit? Yes

Does it bring you out in a rash? No, not at all. And in fact, we have seen, I'd suggest, this Labour government

take advantage of Brexit freedoms in a way that our Conservative predecessors

has failed to do. Just take a look at the India trade deal that the previous conservative government

failed to get over the line. Or, for example, VAT on private school fees

to put more money into our state schools. We can do that by virtue of the fact we've left the European Union

And VAT off trips this summer, I think that's also a big difference. Indeed, indeed. Great family days out this summer

and really, really important we're supporting families, giving them those opportunities. You've maybe taken the politics

out of Brexit. Brexit, for me, was a power transfer to elected people like you

And if you can't do it any good, off you go and get a new lot in and that was the Tories fate frankly

So it should be, that's how democratic politics works. Electorates have the ability to dismiss politicians who they regard as having not delivered for them

and this government like every other one will be judged at the next general election. You've got a huge four weeks in the world of Brexit land, let's call it that

Let me just quickly ask you about a few things on the agenda if you don't mind. How did you feel, just changing tone slightly, when you saw the video of Henry Novak's last moments

I found that a harrowing experience to watch, to see that that was how Henry spent his final moments

It's an every parent nightmare watching that video. Just watching it, your thoughts can only be with Henry's family and friends

If I may say so as well, I think Henry's family, listening to his father speaking on the court steps afterwards

showing extraordinary dignity in what is unimaginable grief. It really is. I think as a parent of children the age of Henry

I think as a parent responding to that, when you send your children away to university

you expect the police to look after them. You do. And just to see that happen and the police be so dismissive

of someone who's a long way from home, that was, I mean, obviously in many ways it's a tragedy

but that can bring it home to parents or two. It certainly did

And, you know, I have a daughter who will be coming up to go and away to university relatively soon

And I just watched it. And you cannot but react emotionally to that video

It is so awful to watch. And there are, just to be clear, very, very serious questions about the police conduct that now have to be answered

and the independent office of police conduct must leave no stone and turn now in terms of that

Well, quite right. But is that limited enough? Should it be more thematic

Claims it might be DEI training, diversity, equality, inclusion training, which led the police to disregard, it seems

the injuries for crucial minutes. How that false lie, the lie at the scene

of the accusation of racism, which is an absolute lie, how that affects police thinking at the scene should absolutely be a part of this

why that is the case how that is the case that absolutely has to be a part of it and we have to

learn the lessons from this going forward has it gone too far we know about the issue with

the macpherson report black people being getting a tougher time in the hands of the police and

white people and now has it gone too far the other way well there's a fundamental principle here of

equality before the law, whoever you are. I was a lawyer before I was a politician. That principle

is sacrosanct. Now, what has happened here, we have to be unafraid to look at why this came to

pass in the way that it did. I think it's important, you know, let the Independent Office of Police

Conduct do their work and what they come back with, what they find, obviously, as a government

we will then take forward. And just finally on this, the fallout politically, Mark Nobuck

the father, didn't want this to be a divisive issue. I think all the parties kind of fell

into line with that at Prime Minister's questions on Wednesday, but not Nigel Farage. And he

didn't condemn the violence, which is, I thought, you know, well, interesting. I mean, I think

you should always condemn violence if you're in politics. You want to lead the country, should we unite in a country, not dividing it. I was appalled. I was sat just a few spaces down

from the Prime Minister's questions. And I just could not believe Nigel Farage

didn't start his question by condemning the violence because what Henry Novak's father had said

was not to have his son's brutal murder to be exploited politically

or to be a reason to promote division or to promote hatred

And I thought we as politicians all had a responsibility to do that

Nobody is saying there aren't profound lessons that we need to learn from this

But those appalling, despicable scenes we have seen of violence in Southampton, of violence towards the police

utterly appalling should be totally condemned And that Nigel Farage can bring himself to do that I think says a great deal Has he got do you think it raised question marks about whether he can be a prime minister

Whether he can go for the whole country? It makes him completely unfit, is the reality, because prime ministers have to be able to bring the country together

it is a basic basic duty of politicians in my opinion in situations like this to be able to

condemn violence we're talking about a sentence or two that he had to utter at the start of that

question that was the moment at prime minister's questions that's the moment that's the bit of

parliament every week that the public watches that's what the public see live that was the

opportunity to do it and I think his failure to do that said a great deal about him. And just

finally on this, you don't believe there's two-tip-hit policing like the Prime Minister says, there isn't any. Critics say there is, certainly Nigel Farrow will say there is. No, and let me

just say about this because I'm somebody, I worked obviously as a lawyer before coming into politics

but I also shadowed various home office roles for many years and that meant I've been out with the

police. I'm very, very grateful to police forces that have wanted to take me with them to show me

the work that they do. I have seen and know that in situations, just as this, I'm sure as this

podcast is being broadcast, there will be police officers somewhere in the country who are running

towards danger, putting their bodies on the line to protect the public. Not armed, normally. Indeed

Indeed, indeed. And I do not believe for a moment this idea of two-tier police

That isn't to say there aren't profound lessons to learn from what's happened here

But I don't think that's the approach of the police. Just very quickly about the disclosures in the Manelson files

the big document published today, this week by Parliament. Was Pat McFadden right

Are you frustrated too that your colleagues in the Palmage Labour Party are more concerned about raising money for benefits

and how they're getting taxes out than other things? Well, first of all, let me just say something about Pat, who I worked with very closely in the Cabinet Office when he was working with me

I think Pat has done a great job for the government in different roles

And to be fair, the Pat that I was reading through those WhatsApps is no different from what Pat will say when you're speaking to him

He will always say that his focus as work and pension secretary is not about benefits

His focus is about ladders out of poverty. His focus is about giving that opportunity

Well, let's make this distinction, Chris, because this is important. I make no apology at all for spending on things like pensions going up

We've just seen up to £575 added to the state pension only in recent months

But bills of economic and social failure, absolutely. And that is why we have our youth guarantee

The work Pat is doing about incentives for employers to take on young people, work experience, because we've seen a collapse in Saturday jobs

But certainly we want to see those 729,000 young people who are out of work into work

But it isn't just a question of money. It's not about salami slicing budget

It's about opportunities for people so they get into work and have a fulfilling life

But policy can help. Do you want to make it easier to employ young people on Saturday jobs

maybe opt out on the nicks for employers, for example? Well, on entry-level jobs up to 21

and indeed apprenticeships up to 25, it's not paid anyway. But in terms of incentives, yes, that's why we're offering those incentives

the £2,000 incentive, the £3,000 incentive as well. So giving those incentives to employers, I think it's an important part of it

And you're not in the files because your phone was stolen? What is it with you guys having stolen phones in the government

I mean, crumbs. Honestly, it was pretty... I know. It was actually quite a shaking experience

I remember the date because it was my wife's birthday last year. And it was walking down Marsham Street

quite close ironically to the home office, that said it was right. But it was one of those situations where

yes, lost a lot of WhatsApp. Also lost a lot of personal photos and other family

So it was not a pleasant experience. But you walk out of a meeting and the first thing you do is look at your phone

what have I missed, don't you? That's what we all do. And that's when they struck. And just quickly on Darren Jones's remarks, he's now come up with some of his messages that have been given to the spectator. Why is that happening after the humble address was apparently done? Why are more messages emerging now

Well, obviously, each minister, you know, we were all asked, I think, on a couple of occasions, you know, the very thorough, robust process

Obviously, if WhatsApp's are not in our possession, but someone else's or whatever, you can come up

But look, each of us has to answer individually for this, individually for what is in the humble address for each of us and why we're in the position we are

And I think it's important we, I've been out doing it this week, Chris, so I think it's important we do

Of course, just finally on Sir Keir Starmer's future, make it feel by-election coming up, see how that plays out

Your Welsh school in Labour history, what lessons can he learn from Harold Wilson? Well, Harold Wilson seemed to be in perpetual leadership crises over the years

There's obviously that great quote from the Mayday rally in 1969, where there's a lot of plotting going on in the parliamentary Labour Party at that time

And he is out addressing the rally and everyone is wondering, how is he going to deal with it

What's he going to say about it? And of course, he starts his speech by saying, I know what is going on

Pause. I am going on. Yeah, absolutely. Take some resilience from Harold Wilson, I think

Yeah, he doesn't appear to be able to connect, though, unlike Wilson, who did with his pipe, which is, of course, a prop

You're a biographer of Wilson. But why can't Keir Starmer connect better to people

Because he's different in private, isn't he? He's quite a warm figure, but he seems to clam up on TV, in my opinion

He's a very, very warm figure in private. I've known him for many years

I say that, though, as I was going around the country, and look, nobody's sugarcoating the elections

They were very, very bad. But at the same time, people were saying to me

there was a lot of respect for Kier over the decision he took on the Iran war

the fact that he had chosen not to join the offensive action when both Kimi Baden-Ock and Nigel Fiers were jumping in feet first

So you know there is a sense of certainly respect for him amongst the public I picked up Yes yes I think an international relation doesn translate to votes sometimes

I mean, we saw it with Churchill in 45 famously, but an extremist

But I mean, I think, you know, I wonder whether he's got to somehow connect on the bread and butter

You will get judged. He is prime minister. Every government gets judged on the totality of what they do

Now, I want to move to Brexit, of course, while you're here. How are you marking the 10th or 10th birthday of Brexit

A big champagne celebration in your office. I've discovered when I was looking at this that it is a day when I'm actually working in that cabinet

So I guess I'll be restricted. If I turned up with alcohol at cabinet, I don't think it'll go down

It might go down quite well. Don't go out of cake. No, no, no

Exactly. But in all seriousness, look, it was an important moment in our history

And I think I am a minister who operates in the post-Brexit landscape

And I've no doubt, and I best speak, obviously, as someone who's a historian as well before entering politics

Of course, it'll be looked at as a hugely significant moment in this century. It really was. I mean, it really was

A power transfer back to elected politicians from unelected ones. Do you understand why people voted to leave now

That was the first question I asked Keir Starmer when he was a Brexit

shadow Brexit minister. and he said I'm going to learn about why it happened because you couldn't quite fathom Brexit

but do you understand why the vote happened now? Well I had a pretty good understanding at the time

because of course my own constituency voted to leave and I was knocking doors in my own

constituency and I was picking up a range of issues around it and one though I would say

that is quite fundamental because you can look at different issues, you've just talked about

issues of sovereignty, for example. But it was a vote for change. And I think we have to remember

that because people wanted something that was different to the status quo. And in a sense now

as we reflect 10 years on, I am still very strongly getting that call for change. And what I was

getting in May and indeed in April knocking doors is people want to see that change. People want to

see it in their communities. They want to see it in their pockets. And I genuinely think you're

talking about Labour history. Time and again, the Labour Party has been the delivery vehicle for

that change. You just mentioned, you know, 1945, 1964, 1997. These are all big change moments in

our country's history, just as 2016 was. And I think as well, we are and can to an even greater

extent be the vehicle of change again. And what people worry about on the Brexiteers side is those

red lines, which of course, what we should remind listeners is not join the single market, because of the union

or the movement. And they stand. They stand. And they won't be moved. This year, we're

expecting your big summit. When is it? Next month? Late this month? Not a firm date yet

Everyone thinks that the date is a matter of grand political strategy. It's actually the

diary managers are the most powerful in this. Okay. That's Ursula von der Leyen meeting with

Sir Keir Starmer. What will we see happen there? Maybe 18 to 30 year olds

travelling between the two So my interlocutor at the EU that I negotiate with

is Maros Sefcovic and we, yes and of course we negotiate very hard, he in the interest of the EU

I in the interest of the UK, we also have a very good constructive relationship and friendship it was really important to be able to

conduct the negotiation I've managed to tempt him into sampling Welsh whisky which I think has been

very important to do but we agreed just before Christmas first of all we've reacceded to Erasmus Plus

from Nexus not just a student exchange by the way but if you're doing vocational training

you'll have the opportunity to go overseas as well sports coaching some really great opportunities

I'm looking forward to it cost money though 600 million it was 570

and I negotiated a 30% discount for entry and what I also did

is I have a 10 month review clause to make absolutely sure that we're getting value for money

which is very important. After 10 months, you're looking again. Look at participation versus cost

Compared to the Turing scheme. Which is in cost. And how that works. But with the Turing scheme, I just want to say this

because some people have said, well, oh, the Turing scheme is worldwide. You can still do that under Erasmus Plus as well

So it's a bigger bet scheme. Anyway, let me just turn to this

because Marish and I agreed that we would deliver three things at this summit

We would deliver the food and drink agreement. and that means essentially getting rid of what I call Boris Johnson's paperwork tax

Now, if you look at the period between 2023 up to very recently

we have firms exporting in this sector that have to have what are called export health certificates

I've held one up on, indeed, on GB News. I've held up one of these. I've held up one of these

Boris's tax. Right? 50-odd pages, dozens of wet stamps on it, okay

They cost up to £200 a piece. And we have, British firms have bought over a million of these things

That's just one example, right? So I'm a pragmatic person. Let's sweep away these costs on businesses

Let's sweep away the paperwork tax. I'm also going to, we're also going to join most of the emissions trading system

This is about decarbonisation and carbon trading. Why is this important for business

If we are not signing up to that, British businesses will have to pay probably around about 700 million in carbon taxes

I don't want to see them paying that tax. I don't want to see that burden on business. And can we pay an organisational fire is going to have to answer why they want to put all these taxes and burdens back on business if they undo this deal

Then thirdly, yes, in terms of a youth experience scheme, of course, it'll have a cap

It will be limited. It'll be in the you're drawing a precise number

It'll be a limit and it'll be in the context of the 13 youth experience schemes you've already got

But let's see this. It's reciprocal. These are opportunities for young people as well

Yeah. So it's not full freedom of movement there. No. And European Court of Justice, that has no jurisdiction. I think that's one of the red lines for some refugees

So this, I'm very conscious of the role of the European Court of Justice

And this is why I made sure that you will get in any trade dispute you will get issues that have to be determined by somebody And if you have a trading relationship as we do with the EU

with 800 billion pounds a year, you're going to get disputes, even with the best will in the world

How do you resolve them? And what I have done is made sure that the arbitration panel

is independent in terms of its decisions. Of course, where the European Court of Justice has a role

is in its interpretation of European Union law. But it has no role that is binding

on the decision of the arbitration panel. That is for an independent arbitration panel

I think that's a really important distinction. So the difference there is, you know, there's two things. Lots of chat about rejoining in your party from some MPs

and indeed some candidates who could replace Sir Kiyosama if the leadership campaign happens

Does that undermine your work? Because if you're Maros Seskiewicz, you're going well let's just let's just pull back on the throttle here and see if um kia sarma and

even nick's in his job by by christmas i i haven't i haven't seen that i think that the

it's not not a problem then i i think the eu is well used to seeing debates about brexit in british

politics so i don't really think it makes a big deal of difference yeah so it's not a problem it's

not a problem and it doesn't undermine what you're trying to do well i think what the everybody i

I don't know anybody who is saying in this debate other than we have to deliver on the 2024 mandate in this parliament

And that is exactly what the work that I am doing. The next election could be a rejoin election

No, no, no. OK, that's a no. I don't see that. But I think that, look, I judge everything in terms of the way European politics is at the moment

This is a post-Brexit landscape that I'm determined to make myself. We've all moved on

We're looking forward. Even GB News is moving on. You're reviewing the trade and cooperation agreement, aren't you

Is that happening? No, I mean, that's been superseded because when I came into office

and I wanted to deliver the closer UK-EU relationship that is in both sides' interests

I didn't want to wait for some arbitrary timetable on a review. So, I mean, and indeed, if you look at energy, where we're obviously doing work together on energy security, trying to drive down bills, we've already rewritten that part of the TCA

Yeah. And increasingly, as we get more involved in European Union, some are saying there should be some kind of democratic wrapper in Parliament

We have the IASC watching the Intendant Security Committee, watching the Security Services

There used to be something called the European Scrutiny Committee, and your party scrapped it coming in

Would you bring it back? Well, in terms of the role of Parliament, first of all, you're going to get a bill, right

So there'll be a piece of primary legislation. I am looking forward to the lengthy debates we're going to have on that in Parliament

Then in terms of scrutiny, look, I'm quite open as to how Parliament wants to scrutinise me and indeed scrutinise the arrangement

So I'm quite open minded on discussions with parliamentarians about this as to how best they want to do it

But I'm not afraid of parliamentary scrutiny. I don't think anyone who's seen me in parliament could accuse me of that

I guess the European Student Committee was because so much directors were coming from Brussels with no real scrutiny

And I don't think the committee did much work, good work, really properly scrutinizing, but it was there

With what you're doing, it won't be a trickle of things. It'll be a one off thing, won't it

so it will be a different... Well, it is a different situation

because obviously we're not an EU member state, but I am not saying that we don't need Parliament

to have what will be an appropriate mode of scrutiny for the particular arrangements that we're going to have

So, you know, that's a discussion I'm more than happy to have with Parliament. As for the ESC, I remember many debates with Sybil Cajun

And of course, a great man that he is. And just finally, in your lifetime

we'll be rejoining. That's the timescale everyone talks about. I don't see that

But what I do see, though, is in this post-Brexit landscape, driving forward a changing international picture

and doing things that are in the national interest. And by that in particular, we're talking about security

We were talking about we signed a security and defence partnership with the EU last year

Nobody's saying NATO is the foundation stone of our defence policy. But there is a shift in the defence burden now

European countries all having to step up. It's important we work together

That is important for our national security. It's also good for jobs in the defence sector

You've seen the work we've done, the Norwegian frigates, airplanes, jets with Turkey

So significant advantages for jobs here in the UK. But just to finish on this

that security in the dangerous world we're in is so important. And it is security, not just hard-edged security

But also in terms of food security, that's why I think the food and drink agreement is so important with the EU

but energy security as well. Despite the concerns about not drilling in the North Sea

that there's a whole different... Well, look, there's a particular, quite a judicial decision that's going to have to be made

by the Energy Secretary in terms of Jack Doan Rose Bank. But oil and gas will continue to be part of our energy

next to many years to come. Okay. We could go on the film soon, but I won't

Thank you for joining us today on Chopper's Physical Podcast. It's great to have you on. And we do appreciate it on a busy day

And of course, on a tube strike day. It's hard to be here on time for everybody. Thanks to our listeners and viewers

for watching and listening to Chopper's political podcast. I tweet a Chris of Hope on X

You're Nick Torfine, aren't you? Nick Torfine. Torfine. And on Twitter, if you want to detect any of us

or tweet to us, email me, chopper at gbnews.uk. If you enjoyed this show, please do tell your friends

If you really enjoyed it, you have a five-star rating and a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify

That helps other people to find it. Thank you. A great team of colleagues behind the podcast

Mick Booker and the podcast Workerbees, Reckonions and George Macmillan. But most importantly of all

thank you again for listening. From me and Nick, what's cheerio in Welsh, Nick

I'm not a Welsh speaker, but I will certainly say goodbye to all your listeners

and thank you for taking the time to listen to our debate today. Cheerio. Thank you