Chopper's Political Podcast episode 78 - Sir Geoffrey Cox - WATCH IN FULL

Coming up on Chopper's Political Podcast

Come on. That's like me saying I'm going to kick you in the shins instead of kicking you in the nuts

Welcome back to Chopper's award-nominated political podcast. I don't talk about that enough

We are up for an award on this podcast, which is fantastic for us. So I bring you the best guest gossip news and stories from our studios at GB News in the heart of Westminster

My name is Christopher Hope. I am the political editor of this channel. We're approaching the end of the year

As those loyal listeners of Chopper's Political Podcast, we have our annual date with one of the most recognisable voices in Westminster

Here's, of course, Geoffrey Cox with our annual Christmas reading. And he is with me now. Geoffrey Cox, welcome to Chopper's Political Podcast

It's lovely to be here, Chris. Merry Christmas to you and to all your listeners, of course

Thank you, yes, and they are growing tens of thousands a week. And you're up for an award and we're plugging for you, Chris

We're rooting for you. I will. I will vote for you. Now, Geoffrey Cox, you were our first guest on the podcast

We launched it in March last year. Back then, you likened the Tories' challenge to the Welsh guards at Rourke's Drift

You could hear the Zulus coming and the fate of your party was looking in trouble and you approved right

Yes, it was, I thought, inevitable. You can't spend five years annoying the British public without reaping the inevitable consequence of it

And fortunately, as at Rawls Drift, a few lonely stragglers survived who have now got to come together and rebuild the Conservative Party

And I think we've seen in the last few months that that is taking place, but it will be slow and it will be difficult

I think that Kenny Benog has staunched the bleeding. I think that she's held the party together

She's got some policies out the door which take the fight to the rivals

European Convention on Human Rights, which will be one of them, and no one has quit the party

Now, had that happened with a new leader straight away, if Robert Jenner could have won, there may have been a split in the party

That hasn't happened, and that is a positive to your party. I think what Kemi is able to do is give a sense of the future

I don't think there's any other politician in the Conservative Party who could do that

When I supported her for the leadership, and I want to make clear I still very strongly support her, I thought she had the potential to navigate the, I think I used the metaphor of the Shackleton, the great Shackleton venture from Seal Island to South Georgia with his crew

I think she has the potential to get to the destination what she has is great potential

I think she's started now to fulfill it I think she's beginning to look like the leader

I think many of us thought she can be but of course there's a long uphill battle to wage

and I think she will know that and what happened to Shackleton? was he rescued himself

he came home didn't he from Seal Island? he sailed with his crew

after the ship had founded for 800 miles from Seal Island at the Pole to South Georgia

And he got there safely with his crew. It was an unlikely journey

And no one died. And no one died. What a challenge for Carrie Bennet

It was a long journey. It could still only seize 800 miles. I mean, she started out, as I say, with this ECHR withdrawal policy

built on a 180-page document from Lord Rawson. You're a senior Casey

Do you mind that? Do you think this is... No, I... ...respecting the legal process

the international legal structures we have already? No, I mean, I've always taken the view

that the Human Rights Act was a mistake. I think I opposed it at the time

though I wasn't in the House of Commons. I think that the common law traditions that we have

are those to which we should look, as other common law nations do

and I think that it was an unfortunate detour and I think that sooner or later most parties

will have to come to that conclusion. Now, it doesn't mean that I think we should abandon the

European Convention on Human Rights. I think there's no harm in us signing up to conventions

that respect human rights. We're already members of the covenant of civil and political rights

the UN covenant. The problem with the ECHR is that it has its own court and that it purports

to allow, indeed we've signed up to it, the right of individual petition so that it becomes an

appeal court against our courts, in effect. Now, that was the mistake. The convention itself was

not a mistake, but there is nothing inherent in such conventions that requires a central court

to determine how human rights in the granular level should be interpreted in each subscribing

member to the convention. So just breaking that down, we couldn't just leave the Strasbourg court

the two things are interlocked. Yes, well, we signed up, Tony Blair signed up to the protocol

which made it a compulsory element of signing up to the convention itself. But in 1956

that was never the case. You could sign up to the convention, but you need not be part of the

court. A save-only state to state. So one state could bring against another state

just like the International Court of Justice. So before 1998, when the Human Rights Act came in

which enshrined the ECHR in our law, we were in the ECHR then

Well, we signed up to the right of individual petition only in the mid-late 1960s. I think it

was Harold Wilson's government, I did that. But from the 1950s to the late 1960s, there was no

right of individual petition. The convention was just like the United Nations Covenant

which has similar rights in it, but there was no enforceable action in a court

So is that the possible future if the Conservatives win, if the election of

Kemi-Baden on its 800-mile journey through stormy seas succeeds and she wins the election

and we do some form of withdrawal from the ECHR, we go back to that

Well, that's what I've always advocated. Is that possible? Well, it's possible

Are there other members of ETH in that situation? No, there are none now because the new protocol, I think it was Protocol 13, I forget now

which was signed by Tony Blair and the right of individual petition that we signed up to

in the late 1960s, now is a compulsory element of belonging to the convention

But there's no reason why that shouldn't be renegotiated. And it does seem to me that there's a very strong case for saying that states should be

allowed to secede from the right of individual petition, but remain in the convention

Why would you make the good the enemy of the best the enemy of the good We heard that about Brexit a lot didn we It a compelling compelling argument in my view Chopra I mean you know the reality is that subscribing to a convention may be a perfectly civilized and good thing to do

It is a symbolic declaration of your values. Not that I think the British require such symbolisms

We've achieved that a long time. But nevertheless, I see no reason why we shouldn't remain members of the convention

It's the right to bring actions before the court. That goes back to the heart of sovereignty, doesn't it

So people see the ECHR debate as why is there a foreign court which has precedent over our own courts here

It goes back, it's almost the unfinished business of Brexit, isn't it? Dealing with sovereignty, making the UK sovereign for its own affairs

Well, I think it's partly that, but more importantly, I do think that there are subtle nuances and differences of cultural and civilizational approach to human rights in different nations

And I think courts ultimately have to reflect the sensibility of their own nation. And I do not believe there is a European-wide consensus on how specific rights should be interpreted

And the flaw, I think, in the argument is that there is some human rights perfection or absolute interpretation of a particular right that applies across jurisdictions and across cultures and nations

I don't think that's the case. I think it's a dangerous misconception

And I think national courts should interpret the rights that are applicable and enforceable in their own jurisdiction

And we're seeing that with the small boats crisis, the rights of the family

Exactly. The courts reflect the opinion in society. They don't, do they

Well, they're all, they are. They may sometimes take judgments that are unpopular

but they are like anybody, as anybody who lives in a particular society

who reflects or she reflects the environment in which they live and operate

Now, it's inevitable that nations would interpret particular rights differently. And clearly, when you have a pressing problem like the problem we have with immigration now, and particularly legal immigration, national courts should be interpreting those rights

And particularly because that's the way they will achieve legitimacy. People will not see a court distant from them in Strasbourg as being legitimate in their decisions over what people must accept here

I think it was 27 of the 45 signatures of ECHR last week signed some form of commitment to reform ECHR

You may have seen that. It's inevitable. I mean, all of these conventions

Can you do it through QMV, qualified majority voting? or is it unanimous, in which case some of the remaining numbers of those who aren't signing up

to this 27th Declaration of Reform will block it? I think it'll be a complicated negotiation

but let me be frank. I think it is inevitable now. The world is changing. It has changed

that these conventions, including the European Convention on Human Rights, but the Refugee

Convention as well, will have to be reviewed. It's what I said five years ago when I was in the

government as the Attorney General. It's the conventions that need to be renegotiated and

reviewed. But that, of course, is enormously complicated because you have to have a widespread

agreement. Just thinking again about Kerry Badenock on her journey through the stormy seas

how does she get the public to forgive her for things that didn't happen when she wasn't

Prime Minister and she was obviously a minister in parts of it? But the failures, I would say

to control migration properly? All these areas would be blamed on the two conservatives

Well, I mean, it's not for me really to advise Kemi, but if I were to advise somebody in this

situation, I would discover the authentic feeling and anger and indignation that the

country is feeling about what happened over the last few years. I think we lost sight of our sense

of responsibility, our sense of mission and purpose. And I think she's begun to discover the

primary condition of gaining attention again, which is authentic anger at the way in which

this Labour government has conducted itself over the last 12 months. I think she needs to display

anger also about the way we let down the country over the last four or five years, because we had

a golden opportunity to change this country, even though COVID hit us

When we got to the 2019 election. Yes, we had an 80-seat majority. We could then have really trenched into the problems of this

country. Yes, we were faced with an unprecedented emergency, but that's no excuse when you're

leading a nation. We needed to tackle at root the problems of this country, and we didn't

And that's why we were elected. Yeah, I mean, no real, no excuse, I think

I mean, and that is what I think we've got to admit, accept and display the same anger

that this country for the last few years have been let down by its politicians

Was it possible? I mean, COVID happened three months, two months into the, that Tory government

you're describing in February, 2020. Then it was a six hour break

I remember vividly in February 2022 at midnight to 6 a.m. Midnight was the last, the ending of the COVID restrictions

6 a.m., Russia invaded Ukraine and the energy shock happened. And that meant that half a trillion pounds was spent by the last government

because they felt they had to deal with half or a billion on the COVID, a hundred billion on the energy shock

That money was spent, wasn't it? And with Labour support, don't forget. So it was accepted by all parties, not some parties, and maybe reform and other ones

But the main parties accepted that was spent. So surely that would have thrown any government off course

Well, if ever I'm in the dock, Chopper, I'm going to ask you to represent me

It is. No, it is. Of course, there is what we lawyers call good mitigation

But it's not a defense. When you're elected into government, you have to have short-term, intermediate-term, and long-term plans

And it was vital that we started work right down deep in the bunker on how we were going to change this country

Because the country is sailing like a vast vessel with its lights on and the music blaring on deck towards some very difficult waters

I'm trying to resist the Titanic metaphor, but the fact of the matter is we are a country with a

massive debt, with an aging population, with a state that is unsustainable, a state apparatus

that is unsustainable. And unless the Conservative Party, with its historic mission

its historic discipline, with its coherence that is born of the ancient traditions that it has

the great men and women who served it Unless the Conservative Party develops the mission that will change this country no other party will do it Reform will implode on the first contact

with reality like a bubble blown from a child's wand. It simply won't be able to maintain the

discipline and coherence that will be required to fulfill this mission. I respect a lot of those in

it. I like a lot of them, but you need regimental tradition, Chopper, to be able to face the enemy

of the trenches. Liz Truss. I say to you, Liz Truss. I mean, that was a moment which atomized

the tradition you're talking about. Well, I don't agree. You can't atomize a tradition 250 years old

that has been served by Churchill, Thatcher, and a galaxy of others. That forms regimental

tradition. You know, when my father was a career soldier, wounded in 1945. And if you're facing the

enemy in the trenches, it's the regiment we are fighting for. It's what is on the flag

Institutional memory. You have to have that. It can first discipline. Look at Canada

No, but even they, in order to survive, had to take on the conservative mantle and branding

some party. Reverse takeover? Well, I don't buy reverse takeover. We'll see. I don't want to be

rude to those whom I like and have time for it. You'll be talking, Geoffrey Cox, no one's listening

to it. I have an enormous sense of the mission of the Conservative Party. I do believe that if it's

not the Conservative Party, it can't be anybody else. I think that many of those in reform are

Conservatives who are frustrated and angry with the way we let down the country over the last five

years. And I do think we let down the country, if only because of the appearance we gave

of forgetting what we were there for and the mission that we had

Even the historians will say, I think, the party was discombobulated by that Brexit choice. It

wasn't Labour's policy. It wasn't Tory policy. And then the Conservatives had to deliver it

having given the people that choice. And I think it never really recovers the equilibrium over the

It was shaken to its core. I mean, it was shaken. The rivets were springing. The deck was groaning under the weight. I know, because I was there at the time. But even that's not an excuse, if we just had the long-term vision

But of course, Boris came in with very little preparation, with very little idea or plan

And so there's good mitigation, Jobber. But when you're dealing with the future of this nation and this great country that we are, there's no excuses in the end

I don't want to give you an easy hit, Geoffrey Cox, but Labour could have started better

They appear also to lack this idea of what on earth they're doing, apart from not being the Conservatives

Yes, I think the last sentence is exactly right. I think the problem is that there is no plan. There is no real vision for the country. There's

certainly no willingness to take the kind of radical approach that our country now unquestionably

needs. And I think Kemi has the potential to develop and push through such a plan, but it

needs to be coherent and well thought through. The Labour Party has no plan whatsoever. And what

they default to is a kind of 1970s style tepid socialism that will gradually move further and

further to the left. And that's what they're doing. I thought Wes Streeting's remarks the

weekend about being a maintenance department, that they do lack a vision, I think. That is the problem

Yeah, and I don't think Wes has got the answers to it, frankly. I think they're all jockeying for

for position in an extraordinary way in relation to a prime minister who won a 170 seat majority

But this is not a party now that has any sign of solving this country's problems

I guess finally, I mean, the Tories do have a choice. The choice has opened up between

the benefits spending in the budget against supporting employment. That is a real opening

I think, for the Tories in the next... I mean, it's not sufficient in itself

No, but it's something. But what it demonstrates is the Conservative Party occupies a unique space in the political spectrum. And at its best incarnation, with the discipline and determination to follow through those values, it can be a very good thing for this country, indeed an essential thing for this country

And just finally going back to where we started, I mean, can you, with this journey, can we

be on, if there's a motor cruiser going past with Nigel Farage on board, at what point does

she hop on board and go for him on the journey of the electoral reform

That'll have to be a judgment for her, if ever. I mean, I think what we, the concern I think I would have about that is whether or not

reform is capable of working within a coherent and disciplined environment to deliver a real

outcome. They're very good, like the spectators on the sidelines at shouting at the coach

and demanding that the referee reconsider his approach. But I've seen no sign yet that they

have realistic prescriptions and solutions or the discipline to deliver them. To be on the pitch

Quite. So Geoffrey Cox, happy Christmas. And to you, Chopper, merry Christmas to you

and to your excellent team and a very happy new year. Thank you so much, all of a sudden

See you next year. Thank you. Hello, I'm Bev Turner. Now, it can feel like the money in our bank accounts at the moment

does not keep up with the cost of living, and maybe there's a solution

I'm here today with the CEO of Tally Money, Cameron Parry. Cameron, what is Tally Money

Well, Bev, with Tally Money, you get a current account and a debit card, But instead of pounds, you use milligrams of gold as your everyday money

So why gold? Gold traditionally is a great store of value. It has, on average, gone up at over 11% per annum for the last 25 years against the pound

It's tripled in value in the last decade. And in the last two years alone, it's increased by 50% against the pound

Banks' savings products just can't compete with that level of growth. But this isn't just about gold

This is about a currency that you guys have created at Tally Money

Explain it to me as though I'm an idiot. So, look, people need to be able to hold their earnings

and build their savings in a money that retains its value and remains in their legal control and remains theirs to access

away from government control. Great. You had me at not exposed to government control

You should feel safe and happy with your money. You should have peace of mind. The more money you see in your bank balance

and that's the type of thing we're trying to deliver, and give people choice in the type of money they get to use every day

Brilliant. Thank you so much, Cameron. Thank you. So Geoffrey Cox, thanks for joining us on Chopper's Political Podcast

My next guest today is Max Wilkinson. Max welcome to Chopper Political Podcast Great to have you on Hello Chopper Pleased to be here It was going to be Gloria when I was first invited on Do you mind No no That not as good looking am I Oh well I a fancy tie though today We sent out a catfishing press release this morning from the Lib Dems and I signed it off

yesterday and then yesterday I was told I wasn't talking to Gloria, I was talking to you instead. I'm not going for a moment to suggest this is an example of catfishing

You've been stitched up. I'm happy to be here in general. What is catfishing? Remind me again. Well it's something that happens online where someone is presented as a person who you might

meet on social media or on dating apps or something and then you turn up into someone else i looked at

gloria's face and saw me me arriving and thought i've been let down you don't look like gloria no

lovely tie though i blame um rebecca my producer who just basically uh obviously misled you to

come here in the first place well let's let this before you leave sir beckett let's get

asked some questions um max great to have you on um i thought it's just just a few areas with you

you might have of interest. The Donald Trump litigation, $10 billion. What should the BBC do

Well, it seems like a laughably big number, doesn't it? And it always is big in litigation

Donald Trump's good at talking about big numbers and making people a bit shocked, isn't he

It seems to me a bit daft that he's suing the BBC over this. Clearly, the BBC got a bit of

journalism wrong, right? They've apologised. It doesn't strike me that there is a case for

defamation here. We all know what Donald Trump was doing around the January

6th riots. And it was pretty clear the BBC didn't need to tune it up

That's the really weird thing. And I heard Catherine Ryan on her podcast talking about it. Or maybe it was on

Have I Got News For You? She was talking about the fact that it was clear what Donald Trump was trying

to do. So there was no need to try to edit his words in the way the BBC

did. However, of course, the big beneficiaries from all of this are other

people who were trying to do down the BBC. And as a Lib Dem, it won't surprise you to hear, Chopper, that I'm someone who defends the BBC, even though we've had a go at them about..

The edit was all. Yeah, of course, yeah. And it was literal, from 55 minutes apart. There was no indication of an edit there

Yeah, and no one's going to defend that journalistic error, are they? But I think the BBC is something that this country should be proud of and can be proud of

There are issues about balance within the BBC, of course, and there are some problems in the way that the governance of the BBC happens

And we need to stop political appointees to the board of the BBC

That's an important principle because it's something you want to get into power

You won't want to forget that. Any government gets into power will say that's a great thing to keep

No, absolutely not. Really? Well, I mean, obviously, I'm not in politics as a liberal Democrat because I'm hungry and thirsty for power

Right. If I wanted that, I would be another party. I'm in the liberal Democrats because I'm a values led guy and I want to see my liberal values put into practice

now when we get into power and i hope it will happen at some point in the future

if we do we will put our liberal values into practice and that is about making sure the bbc

remains independent and having people like robbie gibb on the board making apparent uh you know

forays into editorial decisions things like that not not great bbc had a politics he's a former

director of comms at tweezer may's administration in government the politics how how would you stop

license fee payers' money being paid out in any settlement or any legal fees

I mean, that's what I find so egregious, I think. Yeah, yeah. I'm a license fee payer

You're a license fee payer, right? We're paying the price of the BBC's mistakes

Now, the BBC is different in our national life because we all fund it as a country

And maybe if Donald Trump understood that, he may back down. But how would you stop our money, your or my money

the Wilkinson family money, the Hope family money being paid out to Donald Trump? Well, I don't think Donald Trump understands very much

about the way Britain works, right? As far as I can see, he just wants to undermine the things

that make this country great. He's trying to drive a wedge between Britain and our European partners

He believes in Brexit. He believes in independence and sovereignty. Well, I mean, Brexit wasn't about independence

and sovereignty for some people. For some people, it was about many things. For some people, it was about other things, right

But whichever way you voted in the referendum, you probably didn't get what you wanted

out of Brexit, right? But on the Donald Trump question, he's not a man that we should trust

as British people. it's clear who is benefiting from Donald Trump being part of all this dust up right it's not

British people it's not the BBC your friend Nigel Farage who you're on the regular show here with

right he's benefiting quite a lot from from all of this sort of stuff and I don't think that's

necessarily a good thing for for the country and when we're talking about things like the US

trade deal that apparently the government has been cracking right well it's falling apart isn't it

Before our very eyes, this is why the Lib Dems are talking about making sure that we have a customs union with the EU

I've strayed some way from the original question there, but it's important points to make

I'm always intrigued to ask Lib Dems what they would do if they're in power, because you can call for things as much as you like

You can hit the sweet spot on attacking Trump or attacking Brexit, more of that in a moment

But don't you just want to, you know, if you were in power, what would you do

How can you avoid this problem of our family money being going to Donald Trump in any settlement

Well, of course, it's not. It's for the BBC to defend itself

I will defend the BBC and the principles of the BBC. I can't tell you in this legal case that Donald Trump has put forward in Florida, apparently under Florida's defamationals

I don't know how they apply in the UK. My suspicion is that BBC hangs up

My suspicion is this will be kicked out. Right. But wait and see

That's a much easier answer than me saying, well, I should stop the license we pay as money be going to Donald Trump

Perhaps cut the salaries of big stars or cut money where it's cut spending to pay the bill

We should just talk less about Donald Trump. We would do, but you talk about Donald Trump a lot

I was at your party conference this year. I got the Lego character. Yeah, yeah

Donald Trump and his friend Nigel Farage, as you say. And you mentioned Brexit moments ago

Those are the two themes of Ed Davies' leadership. That and social care, which I think gets a lot of cross-party support

But you do go on about... Cost of living as well, though. But Brexit and Trump are the two main areas

I mean, you've mentioned our customers union. That means ripping up these trade deals

We have agreed to torturous months with India, Australia, South Korea, America

You're a proper journalist and a clever man, right? You know as well as I do that these trade deals that have been negotiated around the world

are piddling in comparison to the trade that we benefited from with the EU. Now, studies, actual proper studies by real economists, actually American ones, right

You might not expect them to be saying this if they were pro-American or pro-Trump or whatever, but they're saying we're losing about 8% of GDP from Brexit, right

Now, what's the India trade deal worth? 0.1, right? And growing, and growing over decades henceforth

Oh, yeah, but how are we going to catch up with 8% with 0.1? The South Korea trade deal, which was struck, and I saw Chris Bryant, a famous Remainer, standing up and hailing this deal, right

Chris Bryant, decent guy. I like Chris Bryant, but that trade deal is basically, I think, replicating what we had when we were members of the European Union because they had a trade deal with South Korea

And then when you talk about the American trade deal, well, we've seen that crumbling apart already, haven't we

The deal on tech where Starmer and Trump had their things signed, right

And they were telling us. It's been held in abeyance. We can't trust Trump on these trade deals, though, can we

This is a nonsense. He loves this country. You know that. He's got family members from here

He's anglophile more than the previous presidents were. He should prove it by being

nicer to us and not trying to undermine our key institutions. So that's where the deal's from

That was being nasty. We've got a better deal on tariffs, of course. Oh, come on. That's like me saying I'm going to kick you in the shins

instead of kicking you in the nuts. How do we get to your customs union? I mean, where would it be in that

We're kicking in the nuts. I've got to be set on my podcast. I'll accept that

This is a shitty, jazzy podcast. We can get away with that kind of thing. Free speech on GB News

There we go. Absolutely no problem. Customs union means we are rule takers, not rule makers

at least in these trade deals, we're equal parties with a third party court deciding any disputes

But customs union is not great at the UK. We just suck up what the EU gives us

Basically, we're taking that kind of approach anyway, aren't we? Because we've got to have alignment with the EU on trade to be able to trade in and out

What's happened at the moment, and I'm a pro-business liberal, right? One of the reasons I'm a liberal democrat is because I believe in liberal markets

which most other parties actually don't when you peel back the veneer of the messaging

I want business to be able to thrive and for that to happen businesses in my constituency need to be able to buy and sell things from Europe and to Europe in a way that is efficient for them

And prices in our shops are going up as a result of Boris Johnson's Brexit deal which was backed by Nigel Farage

That is undeniable. Are there issues to cost of fuel and making it cost

Of course. You can't blame Brexit for everything. But if we were in a customs union, the bureaucracy, the businesses that I meet in my constituency have to put up with, would be lessened

That means that there's less costs on the input side, right, for what they're doing, whether they're buying or whether they're selling to Europe

And that means that the prices that you and I are paying in the shops are higher than they otherwise would be

No one's denying that fuel costs going up and Ukraine is a factor as well, of course

but we've got to do what we should be doing and it's a dereliction of duty on the part of the current government

not to be pursuing a closer alignment of trade it just hasn't been done properly yet

it's been done by people who try to mitigate the bad effects, the point about Brexit

is to give sovereignty back to you to 650 MPs to run the country

if one lot can't do it the next lot come in, I mean what Brexit is

to understand is why people who are Remainers or want to go back to as you were before

want to give all this power away to Brussels the often unelected parts of Brussels, rather keep it for yourselves

That's the point of all that. You're a liberal. You must understand that. Look, I'm a liberal, right? And when I was at university, I used to meet Socialists

Socialist Workers' Party, the Communist Party. They were always there at the trade stands at Freshers' Week and all that sort of stuff

And they're all around, right? You've met these people. They say the problem is that proper communism and proper socialism has never been done, right

And they say, well, the USSR, that was a disaster, wasn't it? All those countries behind the Iron Curtain, they didn't do very well

And the Brexiteers, the hardcore Brexiteers, are now making exactly the same arguments

If only it was done in the way that I wanted. And that's probably the only thing that the communists and the Brexiteers and the socialists and Brexiteers have in common

Although there were a lot of people from the left who bizarrely voted for Brexit, which was a mystery to me, Chopper

The issue is, though, if we have a customs union, we are going to be bringing in about £25 billion extra per year to offset the £90 billion cost of Brexit so far

and at the same time the businesses that you and I want to succeed

will have an easier time dealing with Europe and all these piddling little trade deals

that the government is claiming are doing really well are not delivering anything like

what a customs union would. Well how long do we have to wait? How long do we have to wait? We're getting out of time on this podcast

I was ever talking to you. New Year resolution for you before we go Chopper New Year resolution I finished yet GB News GB News is the home of free speech so for 2026 get a Liberal Democrat to host a show on GB News in the way that you get Nigel Farage Jacob Rees Lee Anderson to do so If you the home of free speech I will come and host a show on your channel whenever you want

Max Roggensen has a challenge and not one I can accept because I don't run the channel in that sense

I'm the political editor, but I can take it back. Briefly, Erasmus, that's a good thing, is it

And next year, probably for you, for a movement for younger people, 18 to 30

that's a promising development for you, even though some would say it's betraying elements of the Brexit ideal

Of course, the Erasmus scheme is something that we had before, and we didn't need to leave it as a result of Brexit

we chose to which denies actually uh all of these opportunities that young people including your

producer apparently enjoyed um when when they're at university uh on the on the she's born in

almskirk she's a she's a basically she's from the northwest of england but yeah carry on uh on the

on the point about uh youth mobility uh this is something that actually is really pretty popular

because everyone knows the youth mobility deal uh that we might have that we have with other

countries around the world already it's a time limited thing right what you get is basically

someone turning up and they're 18 age 18 to 30 they turn up they've got a limited period of time

and then they leave when that time limit is up and that so effectively in the long term almost no

impact on immigration at all in the longer term figures so that that's a good thing right and even

even reform voters think this is a good idea. Matt's a woman can I ask you one final question

and it is a serious question so I want to change the tone slightly you may you set your points out

on the asylum reform for this government. You saw the UK has a long and proud history

of responding with compassion to those fleeing horrors. And I think you were critical broadly

of the revoking of a legal duty to provide asylum figures of accommodation

and the like under this Labour government. And the response from Shabab Barnamood

shocked many people because she said, in a sense, all right for you to say that

you as a group of people, maybe, or Matt, we'll back-talk isn't perfectly on your own

But she and her family have been called dreadful words because the challenging of dealing with asylum has not been dealt with locally

Were you shocked by what she said to you? I wasn't expecting that response

She used the effing P word, didn't she? She did describe that. She did

It did really channel a focus on that debate. Well, clearly she's a Muslim woman and I'm a white man and I would never have had the kind of abuse in my life that she has obviously had to put up with

And no one would suggest that the circumstances were otherwise. That doesn't mean, though, that the types of rhetoric that sometimes people use around this are appropriate

And when the Home Secretary made her statement, she had spent several days in the news using phrases around immigration and asylum

And it's important to separate those two topics, actually, because legal immigration and asylum are two separate topics that the government must resolve separately

But she made that statement in the House of Commons after days of using some language, which a lot of people would have found inappropriate

things like immigration and asylum is tearing the country apart she had said and and i don't think

that's a helpful contribution to the debate what i want as a liberal is an immigration system

where we have a compassionate approach to asylum so refugees who are fleeing war who we have a duty

to look after and every other country in the world has a duty to look after as well they get looked after But also in terms of legal migration it important that we separate those two subjects out as I said because legal migration is an important part of getting the economy right

So businesses have people with the skills that they need to work in them, but also solving the longer-term demographic challenges that this nation has

She was saying, in a sense, I think, it's all right for you, maybe as a white person

criticising this treatment but my community is dealing with the the rising tensions caused by

not dealing with the issue of legal migration and people i know are called called the fnp word

because and i want to help them and you aren't helping them by by being soft in this area i don't

think i'm doing what you would categorise as soft what i'm saying is we need a pragmatic

system that actually works um there is a silent majority of people in this country chopper

who basically think that immigration has been a bit high over the last few years, right

Or they think immigration hasn't been too high over the last few years. Now, there's a discussion around that

They also think that we need an asylum system that works, that we are doing our bit to help

And, moreover, most of these people are really worried about the economy and public services

And there is a real risk that in this discussion around immigration and asylum, and it's perfectly right that as a country we have this discussion

and I would not seek to say that anyone who tries to open this discussion

is doing the wrong thing. But we need to have a proper discussion about how we make sure

that we get it right and we have a system that works. And the tone is wrong from this government

The tone has been wrong at times from this government. The tone has been wrong from the past government

The tone has been wrong from other politicians as well, some of whom appear on GB News

At all channels, I would say. Yeah, and at all channels. It's perfectly reasonable for people to have that right to say what they think

I will say it my way and I will call it as I want to say it

But it's important that we have a proper debate and a proper discussion based in facts

And also that the discussion is separating asylum and immigration because they are two separate issues

And we need to look after those people who are in that silent majority as well

Not just the people who are either on one end saying all immigration is all bad all the time

Or at the other end, people like Zach Polanski saying, you know, basically open the doors and give everyone a hug

And this is all a big distraction. There's a middle ground there. There is, yeah, and that's what we will speak to

Max Wilkinson, thank you for that. An important way to explain what happened there

And, yeah, it's a content issue, the whole area of migration and how we approach that, it matters

Before we leave you, I'm going to ask you about your plans for 2026. Do you have any New Year's resolutions

Well, on a personal level, I'd like to spend more time with my wife and daughter, but as a politician, that doesn't always happen

So I will hope that I will continue to be a reasonable voice

speaking for the silent majority on matters to do with immigration and asylum in parliament

but also dealing with whatever comes on my plate as the Home Affairs spokesperson. I'll give GB News a New Year's resolution as well

You've got people like Nigel Farage, Lee Anderson and Jacob Rees-Mogg doing shows which are very popular on your channel

Get a Liberal Democrat voice presenting a programme in 2026 on GB News

And if you want me to do it, I'll happily do it. There we go. That's a challenge. Again, for my bosses, not for me

I'm the fitter editor but I will take it back thank you for joining us thank you Chopper Max thank you

now Geoffrey Cox is still with us on Chopper's political podcast clearing his throat

you've got a slightly yeah I apologise to you and to your listeners

Chris because I have this what the doctors are calling a post cough it gone on for days but I do my best yeah and we going to have your annual Christmas reading for our listeners and viewers So Geoffrey Cox one of the best recognised voices

in Westminster. It's a privilege to have you here with your Christmas reading. Take it away

Well, this is by Longfellow and it's called Christmas Bells. I heard the bells on Christmas

Day, their old familiar carols play, and wild and sweet the words repeat of peace on earth

Goodwill to men. And thought how, as the day had come, The belfries of all Christendom

Had rolled along the unbroken song Of peace on earth, goodwill to men

Till ringing, singing on its way, The world revolved from night to day

A voice, a chime, a chant sublime Of peace on earth, goodwill to men

Then, from each black, accursed mouth, The cannon thundered in the south

And with the sound, the carols drowned Of peace on earth, goodwill to men

It was as if an earthquake Rent the hearthstones of a continent

And made forlorn the households born Of peace on earth, goodwill to men

And in despair I bowed my head. There is no peace on earth, I said

For hate is strong and mocks the song Of peace on earth, goodwill to men

Then pealed the bells more loud and deep. God is not dead, nor doth he sleep

The wrong shall fail, the right prevail. with peace on earth, goodwill to men

So thank you for joining us wherever you are listening to this podcast. It's our last one before Christmas

Don't forget you can vote for Chopper's political podcast at the Political Podcast Awards

Polls remain open until January the 9th, 2026. The link for voting for this podcast in that description

I treat a Christophobe on X. what's your Twitter handle Max Wilkinson

at MPM Wilco that's not a reference to my job or ambitions

it's a reference to my initials thank you and send in thoughts to him there

email me of course any thoughts on the podcast any ideas for the future any plans for 2026

Christopher Hope at GBNews.uk or Chopper at GBNews.uk if you like if you enjoyed the show

please do tell your friends if you really enjoyed it like Max Wilkinson has give a 5 star rating

and a review on Apple Podcasts Spotify that helps other people to find it

Thanks to the brilliant team of colleagues behind this podcast. The bosses, of course, Mick Booker, Jeff Marsh

and the podcast elves, Santa's elves, Rebecca Nunes and George McMillan this Christmas time

Most importantly of all, thank you again for listening to the podcast. If you want more Chopper in your life

and they do, and who doesn't, catch each other in the week on GB News

with your latest political updates. Matt Wilkinson is chucking away in the corner

He's telling him what's more, me and his life. Keep up today with our best reporting on our website, gbnews.com

But until next time, it's Christmas. Cheerio. Ho, ho, ho. Ho, ho, ho, ho, ho

Chopper Christmas