Chopper's Political Podcast Episode 83 - Sir Iain Duncan Smith and Chris Green - WATCH IN FULL

Coming up on Chopper's Political Podcast

You can't do that. You don't have ownership of democracy. Welcome back to Chopper's Political Podcast, where I bring you the best guest gossip

news and stories from our studios at GB News here in the heart of Westminster. My name is

Christopher Hope, and I am the channel's political editor. Well, another bunch of former Tory MPs have jumped ship to Reform UK

I've got one of them on the show this week, Chris Green, the former Tory MP for Bolton West for nine years

I'll be asking him why he's done it, what's in it for him, if anything

and will Nigel Farage be the next Prime Minister? He's got some interesting things to say about that

Also, with the fallout of the budget still looming, I'm talking to Sir Ian Duncan Smith, asking him why on earth this government appears to have lost all ambition to cut the benefits bill

That's what they told me in a briefing this week in number 10

I asked them, will the reviews by Sir Stephen Timms and by Alan Milburn, a former health secretary, cut the benefits bill

The government wouldn't say they would. I find that surprising and maybe a bit worrying for the future of our finances

With me now is Sir Ian Duncan Smith, of course, the former Conservative leader

and then perhaps more importantly, maybe, I don't know, the good debate to have the former welfare secretary for the coalition government

who invented, brought about universal credit. Sir Ian Duncan Smith, thank you for joining us today on Chopper's political podcast

Why is it so hard to cut the benefits bill? Because it requires political determination

it needs to be recognized that you will get into lots of people that will get at you straight away

people aren't actually on benefits but often people that are inside the what I call the leftist view

of human rights etc and will complain and shout about it and it's not easy because there are

always going to be hard cases in that but it requires political determination and a desire

because at the end of it all if you are spending too much on welfare it means those who are on low

and marginal incomes will be spending too much tax and will not be able to live their lives

in the way that others on benefits live. And that's the key factor. And what was your record very briefly

back in the coalition 10 years ago? Well, it was tough, but we reformed the welfare system

I got universal credit through, which is brilliant now and it proved itself during COVID

But the main thing is that we reduced the budgeted bill about 30, 32 billion pounds in year

And that was able then to put that... That was every year or over the... It was each year. It was reduced to in-year

Yeah, yeah, off it. I mean, it's much more than that. Obviously, it's closed on 200 billion now

It was about 160. That includes pensions. Yeah, well, it includes pensions. You take pensions out of it, it's down quite a lot lower

So working age benefits. And also, we had the lowest number of workless households since records began

And I think it was about 1,600 to 2,000 people who were out of work every day

That period is called austerity by Labour critics, of course. Yeah, it's a stupid word, austerity

We never really had austerity, as they seem to understand. And Ireland, they had real austerity

They cut their health service, everything. Force them and buy them for the crisis. Completely right

So my point was, what we had to do was to free ourselves up to be able to help those get back into work

And the single biggest phrase I used endlessly was, work must pay better than benefits

And that's what you have to do. You have to reduce a bit of the welfare bill. You have to cut some of the taxes to give people a real choice

Right now, they get trapped in the benefit trap. And by the way, their health will suffer

There will be all sorts of problems as well. Getting them into work is not just about money

It's about character. It's about development. It's about feeling self-esteem. It's worthwhile

And I'll think that's the justification that reform use for lifting the introductory rate of tax to £20,000

They want to make work pay, they tell us. Yeah, well, there are lots of ways to do that. My point is you can't do it unless you can afford it

I mean, look at the Labour government. And I think they've got the political permission to do this more than the Tory government might have

They've got two reviews into welfare at the moment by Alan Milburn, former health secretary

Sir Stephen Timms, who is a welfare minister. Yet, unbelievably, the government told me this week

they won't say they want the benefits bill to come down from these two reviews

They won't say that. And whether that's to avoid a fight with the backbenchers or whether that shows a lack of ambition, I don't know

But I think that's unbelievable. Well, it's an abrogation of responsibility. Why do a review if you don't bring the bill

Well, that's my question, too. I like Stephen Timms. I've got on very well with him in the past. He's always logical about his stuff. They've dumped on him this review. His review is limited

Young people, isn't it? Yeah, it's all about young people. But the reality they've got here is that they have a party at the moment that literally thinks this is easy. You do not have to do any cutting of welfare. You do not have to reduce the budget. Just get growth and all will be well

Well, you won't get growth if you're spending this amount of money. A couple of figures that your listeners might be interested in

This is going up now after this budget, the welfare bill, about 16 billion pounds over this period of the budget

Worse than that, over the lifetime of the parliament, it will probably be 91 billion pounds more spent on welfare than they got when they arrived

That is an astonishing figure. that is foregone tax that's increased taxation

increased regulation and fewer people will go into work and work will not pay

and their choices will now be slipped over to well why do I bother

I might as well sit on welfare With their size of majority they don't feel willing to take on

these backbenches who don't understand why you need to cut the benefits bill

because it will bring down the cost of borrowing eventually that should fall shouldn't it because the market is going to look

favourably on cutting. Yeah, that's exactly what they want. Well, the markets are looking at this increase

and in the longer term, you can see that actually the growth figures aren't great

and their borrowing requirement will rise in due course quite significantly because you can't do this. Either you tax

the hell out of the British public, which they've started, but there has to be a limit to that

and then you have to borrow. And the two things are one is deferred taxation and the other is

taxation. So the biggest thing is when I had to reform it, it's

hard you know you you really get attacked but what they have to recognize there's a balance in all of

this the silent majority of the public actually want to see this take place you don't hear about

them all the time uh you might get them on your podcast but generally in the news media and the

bbc they don't really talk to these guys very much but it's the loud minority very politicized

and often quite extreme who shout about this we have time to do it and probably they're

They're part of an advocacy movement. It is exactly a problem. And you have to take that on because good government is balanced government

And, you know, the Blair government did a load of this as well. They didn't always agree with what they did

but at least they took the courage to take their own backbenchers on on this. And they did

This government has collapsed on this right from the beginning. It's the toughest choice you have to make, and they have balked at that choice

And that is going to be dangerous for the economy. It's as simple as that. They seem fenced in by what's happened to them

You, of course, founded the CSJ, the Centre for Social Justice. There was a plan there to reform benefits Yes early on in the Parliament there were two things First of all when they came up with their plan which was something I didn agree with they were top slicing PIP the disability benefits And I said if you just turn top slice and limit

it doesn't work because they find lots of ways around. And anyway, by and large, you get the good

with the bad. You've got to be much more direct about who you're trying to reform and change

not just everybody takes a slice off their benefits. And so we produced a programme that

said look your biggest problem right now is sickness benefit this is now coming to uc it

wasn't him when i was there uh and um so mental health problems are the problem in sickness benefit

anxiety and depression are about 50 60 percent of all the claims balloon isn't it well here's your

balloon since covid it was understanding to be joined covid yeah but are we too soft on these

things well we i think the problem is a couple of doctors said this we've medicalized now too many

of the ups and downs of life i'm not saying there aren't difficulties but instead of giving

those people that claim it, I'm depressed, I need benefits. Instead of giving the benefits

what you should be saying to them, the greatest treatment for depression anxiety is work

So the DWP should be working like mad immediately they come to that to get them back into work. In

the meantime, use a little bit of the savings to ensure that we have support networks around them

you know, that can help them through talking therapies, etc, calm them down. We did many

years ago, a wonderful charity called Tomorrow's People did an experiment in a doctor's surgery

The doctor there complained that there was Phil in those days needs to be able to sit in the

surgery by people saying they were depressed. He was dishing out all sorts of antidepressants to

them. Huge bill going on. They moved into one of the surgery edges there and they said, don't dish

them out. Send them to us. They got them back into work. Within one year, his antidepressant bill

fell by 60%. Work cures depression and anxiety. And yet what the root that we have now

is not work. The root is straight on to benefits. That should not be the case

Now that would have saved between seven and a half billion and nine billion a year. Well, the answers are there

if the government wants to take it. Yeah, I offered up to them. Would you be willing to help them do this

My view is no government can exist unless this is done. And even if a conservative government came in

you know, after the next election, they would find this massive problem. So it's in all of our interest to sort this out

We should work, you know, give them support. I might have a best day once they hit it by 20 billion. Where they do the right thing, we should give them support

And Kemi's up for that, but not when they were top slicing. That was a big mistake. I've got to ask you about politics generally

You're a former Conservative leader. Kemi Bednock has had a good time since July, I think

She's well in the MQs. Very well. She's still underwater on the polls

I mean, looking today, she took over at 26%. Now it's down to 16%

Well, it depends which polls you look at. I saw the other day where we're at 20%, and that was a YouGov poll

This was a YouGov poll. Some of those polls, I have to say, are very odd the way they do it

My general view is YouGov's not only the most accurate, and they have a correct way. I know, we are, as a party

She's down for that. We as a party are. From when she came in to where she's at, she's gone back

We as a party are. But if you talk to anybody about when they witness her

when they see what she's doing, I think she's getting confident. And I just say to everybody

I think you'll think that somehow a leader arrives like a messiah, ready-made and on top of the world

It's not the case. Johnson was a bit of that, wasn't he? Well, he'd been around a long time

But the reality was, you look at Mrs. Datcher, 1974. I remember, I'm old enough, people thought she was quirky, weird, peculiar

She was patronised by Callaghan every day in the dispatch box. At the end of the day, she rose to be the titan that we came to know

You can see that in Kemi Bedlam. I see what you need to look at is backbone, courage and intellect

those three things she has in abundance. I think she's definitely convinced the Westminster bubble

the village that we worked in. That's a start. And she has done that. That's a start. She stalks the bleeding of the polls

but she's got to somehow break out of that and convince the polls. I agree. And therefore, you have to start with your base

The base is Westminster. You have to be winning the battles in that. And she's courage

I thought some of her ad-lib lines now are very good. She's nailed her, the chance

And PMQs. PMQs and Charlie, the budget, everything else. And that's been tweeted out now more. It takes a time for that to settle. The second thing is she now, I think, needs to be out more than Westminster. She can start to move out now to start talking to the public more directly. That, I think, is the next phase of this. Once people get to talk to her, they'll realize, actually, she's a remarkably sensible individual. She doesn't get fussed about status. She's very clearly down on the ground

or being black. So these identity politics, she hates it. She hates it, she hates it

And Labour don't understand that, do they? They can't touch her. And the point is, on trans

she was one of the brave people that came out earlier and said, this is all rubbish. So if you look back over her genuine career

where she's been allowed to say what she thinks, she has been absolutely, I think

foursquare with most of the British public who are sensible about these things. She is all sensible

I was a critic about her, the time she took to develop policy

but I think that the Wilson report was a turning point. This 180 page reason why the ECHR

that is now a foundational document for the next manifesto. It is

And no one's left, like, you know, I would look at Simon Hall maybe

some people who I thought may be concerned about it. No, no, she's got the party united

Who was that? No, I agree. And the one thing I'd say about all of this is that she does things properly

and it reminds me of Mrs. T. Mrs. T didn't jump. She used to make sure the ground was rolled, everything was prepared

One of the mistakes in politics over the last 10 or 12 years or even 15 years

is we've done too many knee-jerk things. What you need to do, prepare the ground, get the technology

And that's brave in the world of social media because... Well, look, she was attacked. All your brethren were attacking her because she hadn't made some big breakthrough

And she said, move when I know the structure is sound. But she's still behind. She's still six points or more behind where she was when she took over

So, but Labour also down at the same level. Yeah, and the party anyway, generally

But I am interested in the way that even the reform have dropped down slightly

So there's a kind of beginning of a mix here where people are asking questions rather than just being angry

So my point is, I think she's right for the British public

She sums them up perfectly. Stryver works hard. That's the case. Why three of your colleagues join reform this week

Well, they were ex-colleagues, and I'm sorry they haven't. No, they're probably still Tories. Yeah, well, amazing

All they are is ex-MPs. Yeah, I know. That's why I said ex-colleagues. They're not colleagues now because they're not MPs

And my point is I'm sad when anybody decides to go to reform. And I would always pitch the question, why

Give me one really good reason, why? Or is it just because they're ahead in the polls

And my answer to that has to be, it has to be pretty strategic. And you need to know what you're saying

And I think people who have gone over there in a year or two's time will say

well, maybe we should be back with it. Well, he needs experience. He being Lundq Farrow needs experience

The problem he's got is he's signing up people who were rejected by voters at the election last year, even as Tories

He's now got 18 former Conservatives or MPs as part of his team

And he's trying to attract Labour too. But Labour supporters might go, well, are you just trying to be the Tories but not

Well, that's one of the problems they've got. The other problem is governance. You know, there's a big difference between popular and then suddenly going into government

And we seen it endlessly in lots of ways Look at the councils reform run councils are failing all over the country I mean you got Kent you also got Worcester What your metric with failing Because you got to understand how these things work

If you want a reform and change thing, and have done the welfare thing, you've got to work to get the system to change, to understand their value

You can't just come in and say, that's it, we're all done. And they sort of thought, well, you've got this brilliant idea in America

That has failed, by the way. It's funny, because a lot of government, as a council

things that happen there are required by law. So is it quite limited what you can cut

Well, there are limited, but you can make changes. You can make big changes in councils, but you've got to make sure you sort the system out first

before you can make the changes. What's your take quickly on this abolishing of these mayoral elections by the government

I mean... Well, why haven't they come to the House of Commons to discuss the thing? Well, it's been announced, I think, on Thursday

Yeah, it is. But they haven't... We haven't had a major debate. We haven't had a discussion

There's not been any great technical paper produced. it's a lot of nonsense I think. I don't think you should fiddle around with elections. Let

elections go if you want to reform stuff. You do it within the timescales. You don't

start saying we're going to delay elections. It is an insult to voters. It's a complete

insult to voters. We can't say it. I'm terribly sorry. We haven't got the time for this. You

won't be allowed to pick your council or whatever you've got to pick here or your police commissioners

We're not going to do that in a moment. We'll put you back a couple of years. If we haven't got it done by then, well we'll put it back another two years. You can't do that. You

don't have ownership of democracy. You actually run bits of it, but you don't own it, and they are behaving

at the moment in an unbelievably arrogant manner. We're approaching... Jury trials is another example. Well, we're just going to

go with jury trials. It's not a problem. It's a bit of difficult. Now, there are debates about how you could

better use magistrates' courts, but you don't just go, this is our view

Done. In a couple of days. You can't do that. Article 9 of Magna Carta there being ripped up

Yeah. Only 3% of all cases get there. they have doubled the backlog

for 40,000 to 80,000 so surely there's a case for doing it temporarily

and then have a sunset clause that when you've cleared the backlog you go back to frankly

Magna Carta which is centuries old right well I don't believe you ever go back that's my cynicism

and my answer to this is it's only 3% it isn't the problem

the problem is getting people through checked, arrested and through on the same day

and what you can do with that because most of this stuff goes to magistrates

Just occasionally stop people on minor crimes electing to go to the Crown Court

Either way, it cases. And then say, into the magistrate's court for a decision

Yes. And that's how it should be. That way you'll get after shoplifters and others. But you don't necessarily spend very much..

Do you see an authoritarian streak in this here in Duncan Smith? I think back to 90-day detention

when you were, I think, just after you left and led the Tory party, there's a feeling that

Labour can be more authoritarian historically. Oh, they very much are. They very much are

because inside the Conservative Party, there is always a concept of freedom and a sense that ultimately you don't fiddle

with the basic freedom. Leave people alone. The rights of people come way back in English common law

America, Tepka, English common law, they believe the same. So if your problem is courts are chocked up

with town court stuff, but it's only 3% of the cases, your biggest problem lies in short-term small stuff

that should go through the magistrate's court and there all that can be accelerated

Very, very quickly, again, about basic freedoms in this country. What's your take on this possibility of an Islamophobia definition

It's been called a backdoor blasphemy, Lord, by critics. Well, I'm very concerned when it comes to freedom of speech

We may not like what people say about us, but I think we've moved on from the idea of blasphemy

People must be free to criticize religion. And there is a general sense that somehow, if we start making all of this

are we going to start defining Christianity, all this stuff? Antisemitism has

Well, that's a peculiarity. Well, I think it's a peculiarity because anti-Semitism really stems from what has happened in the past. And anti-Semitism right now is on the rise. So having a clarity about that

I think most people have settled in the UK with other religions

And the main point is you should be able to criticize religions. You should even be able to joke about it

It may be in ill taste. But at the end of the day, if we start chopping away at those things

then we're going to end up with a very strict society that is only good for those who govern it, not for those who live in it

That right to offend is important. It's absolutely important. And just very funny, on this idea, this Chinese super embassy

the decision by the government is being pushed back now until January

of course that's the embassy on the Royal Mint site in the City of London you're sanctioned by China are you

Yeah I am yeah and I'm completely opposed to this what I'm absolutely opposed to is you're on two protests over it

it's had over 5,000 people outside the embassy China wants to increase the number of people they have here

they're mostly spies they put them out 200 extra people will go into that embassy

they're also refusing to shut down their existing embassy which they were told to do if they got this

They won't go to their embassy. They're going to carry on with that

They will have more people than any other country will have here even though they'll overtake the US

The current country, trading partner. Well, the question is, we've got to start with what they are

They're a threat. They're a threat to the way we live our lives. They attack us all the time under cyber attacks

We also have spying. We see the spying cases coming forward. They are a threat, a continuing threat to the United Kingdom

America believes that. Most of Europe believes that now. The UK is in a very weak position

They think that somehow China's going to arrive and give them growth. They're not going to give them growth

What they will do if they do this trade deal is they'll end up dumping electric cars that they've overproduced

batteries, solar arrays, and slabs. That costs over people in this country

Let me tell you what it'll do. It'll destroy the car industry. It'll destroy the steel industry

We've got to understand that we've got to start learning to build some things here in the UK again

The biggest mistake we ever made was to think you could chuck all this out to a country that doesn't obey the rules of law

That was under the Tory government. It doesn't matter. I was opposed to it under the conservatives. I've been attacking everybody on this

It seems to me at times I don't matter who's in government, I'm in opposition. But that's just, you know, really the main bit of it

It's going to run and run. Tremendous say, of course, this is all not true and spies aren't

Of course they do. They say they're not true, but it is completely true. Every other country believes it's a malignant nation, supports Russia with money, buys up their oil

has given them arms, brokered the agreement with North Korea. North Korea produces weapons for Russia

Russia would never have invaded Ukraine if China had said no. So, in-dobby-simmith, a tour de force

as I expect from a former leader of the Conservative Party. And thanks for your insight on benefit

and all sorts of errors today on Chopper's political podcast. My pleasure. Great to have you here. Thank you

Hello, I'm Bev Turner. Now, it can feel like the money in our bank accounts

at the moment does not keep up with the cost of living. and maybe there's a solution

I'm here today with the CEO of Tally Money, Cameron Parry. Cameron, what is Tally Money

Well, Bev, with Tally Money, you get a current account and a debit card, but instead of pounds, you use milligrams of gold as your everyday money

So why gold? Gold traditionally is a great store of value. It has, on average, gone up at over 11% per annum for the last 25 years

against the pound. It's tripled in value in the last decade. And in the last two years alone

it's increased by 50% against the pound. Banks' savings products just can't compete with that

level of growth But this isn just about gold This is about a currency that you guys have created at Tally Money Explain it to me as though I an idiot So look people need to be able to hold their earnings and build their savings

in a money that retains its value and remains in their legal control

and remains theirs to access away from government control. Great. You had me at not exposed to government control

You should feel safe and happy with your money. You should have peace of mind. The more money you see in your bank balance

and that's the type of thing we're trying to deliver. and give people choice in the type of money they get to use every day

Brilliant. Thank you so much, Cameron. Thank you. My next guest is Chris Green, the former Conservative MP

who this week jumped ship to join reform. He joins me from his home in the seat that he lost in Bolton

Chris Green, welcome to Chopper's political podcast. You were the Tory MP for Bolton West between 2015 and 2024. You're an experienced MP. Why on earth have you jumped ship then to a startup

up? Well, that experience over those nine years, too often I found what the Conservative Party was

saying and what they were doing and what they're trying to do were out of step with one another

And obviously, earlier on with UKIP and the Brexit Party, I had a little bit of a sense that that

movement was on a single issue. And it's been really transformative since the general election

just how much Nigel Farage has transformed the Reform Party into a mainstream political party

And looking up the stance on things, it's just a much better fit for me

Do you worry it's a one-trick pony? It's just basically Nigel Farage? If he weren't there, the party's support in the polls would fall substantially

Obviously, he's a big key figure in the party. But one of the things that really made me switch from thinking it's a single issue

single-person party into being a mainstream political party that can bring people on

is the way he fought to keep hold of Zia Yusuf. When he did that, he fought to keep a really

talented man. Because the reputation before was a little bit about there can only be one figure

and he'll exclude all the others. But with Zia and Richard Tice and Danny Kruger and others

coming on board, it's really broadening out to a mainstream political party

Do you worry it's looking a bit too full of former Conservative MPs? I think there are maybe 15 or 18 of you now within the party. I mean, is that a concern in the party's attempt to try and appeal to former Labour supporters too

I think there is that perception. And I think some people in reform be worried that they're just going to get a whole load of former Conservative MPs to become the local MP

But some of the people coming across, such as David Jones, he's leading in Wales, really supporting the team in Wales

And he has no intention of being a member of Parliament. So I think some of the people coming over aren't doing it because they want to be an MP

and also I don't know what the process would be within reform but I would expect there to be a

huge local impact into whoever the candidate's going to be so if you don't want that former

Conservative MP I expect the local associations to be able to say we're not having here

Well come on to your ambitions shortly I mean how did your family react and your friends when

you said you were jumping ship and when did you decide to go? I decided at Conservative

I went to conference this year. I thought I'd give the Conservative Party one last go to keep hold of me

And even though in many ways it was impressive, it still fell far short

I concluded after Kenny Baden-Ock's speech that I should move. Obviously, it's been very mixed with friends and family

Broadly speaking, I think people are supportive. Most people know that when I was a little bit rebellious with the Conservative Party

it was always pushing into the position that reform now occupy. and how did you tell the party did you did you tell Kimmy Badenow

uh no I uh I told the association I had a conversation with the uh former chairman

I messaged the current chairman so it's more of a local thing in terms of those comms and they were

quite difficult conversations as well yes well how did they react they say come on Chris you

you got a chance next time surely I mean were they trying to keep you on board because you were

you know you served you won you served through two you won three elections with them didn't you

I did and that's part of the disappointment as well but I don't think anyone in the local party

would suggest the Conservatives are going to win in Bolton West next time around and I believe that

the Conservative Party focus at the next general election isn't going to be to win seats around

the country it's going to be to defend what they already have the opinion polls look pretty bad

And even if the result for the Conservatives isn't that bad, the whole focus will be to protect what they have

That means looking after the South East and London. That's why the stamp duty changes

It doesn't help many constituents up in Bolton West or in Bairi or places like that

That's really for the home counties. So Ian Duncan-Smith, the former Tory leader, has told us on this podcast

he's all suggested that you'll just simply see a chance to come back as an MP

and you possibly may even regret going to reform UK and leaving the grand old Tory party

Well, it's a big question, isn't it? What the next year election result's going to be

I don't think that the Conservatives really has been focused on many of the constituencies around the country

I think there is that South East or South of England and London focus

And I actually look at the Conservative Party now and to a large extent the Labour Party

I think they've got basically the same problem. They've both been around for a very long time

They've got a huge amount of baggage, and it makes it very difficult for them to be pragmatic

and actually deliver for the current era and be looking forward to the future

It's like an old computer. You've tried to update it. You've tried to upgrade it

You've even bought a new monitor, so the presentation is better. But ultimately, you've got to choose to get a new computer

and that's Reform. And in terms of the new computer, What are the new apps within Reform UK that's attracted you

What are the policies? Let's go back to where. What are the policies in Reform which has brought you across

There's the obvious stuff about the ECHR, controlling migration, law and order

But actually, my favourite... And all those things, the tour you say they're doing, of course

don't forget. And after 14 years of failure on those issues, and this is where Kenny, I love what she's saying

It's wonderful what she's saying and how she's delivering it. But we all know when it comes to the crunch, if the Conservatives got back in, they wouldn't be delivering

Now, one of my favourite parts of what reform is really doing is challenging the net zero agenda

So you look at that and you look at how it weighs down upon British business, British industry

And when the Conservatives talked about the northern powerhouse and levelling up, it ought not to be government handouts

It ought to be removing the regulation, removing the burden of energy costs to enable people, businesses to create the success all around the country

The last Conservative or former Conservative to join Reform UK. How many more MPs are in the talks with the party, do you know

Fortunately, on that, I'm blissfully ignorant, but I wouldn't focus too much on the Conservative side

So Labour MPs are normally a bit more awkward about joining another political party

So they would do something like set up Change UK, what it was with Chikoramuna, they'll do your party

But if you look at the Roncorn and Hellsby by-election, that demonstrates there's a huge number of Labour voters

It may not be the hierarchy, it may not be the people at the top, but it's the Labour voters who are shifting over to reform

So there might be some Conservative prominent figures who are moving over, but actually Conservative voters

and Labour voters are moving over. It all hangs, a lot of it hangs, on kind of the Nigel Farage appeal

His bon ami, his ability to connect in a way which I think

no other politician can beat in modern politics, connect with voters? Yeah, there's a huge aspect of Nigel Varage

And this is one of the things running into the general election. Reform have been doing a whole series of events

making sure other prominent figures from Reform have that platform. And increasingly, they're becoming well-known

The media are more familiar with them and the general public are. So the broadening of that team

But it's always a challenge for a political party. How many people know figures from the Liberal Democrats beyond Ed Daly and Tim Farron, perhaps

Yeah, Daisy Huber, but not many, I suppose. Have you been promised a job, a role

No, I very much came into this of seeing that reform has the right agenda

I want to get involved in reform and support the team. So I haven't had a conversation with Nigel Farage about my future or anything else

And actually, I'm still completely undecided. So I want to get involved and support the team

And you've met Farage a few times. Yeah there was on the campaign trail before the Brexit party became a thing There was a bit of a campaign So he spoke in Bolton I met Richard Tice I know some of the figures

And was it he who reached out to you? No, it's my decision. I wasn't reached out to

I think the way reform are approaching this is that reform are doing very well

If you want to be part of the team, if you want to support the team, you've got to make that decision yourself

Of course, the question is, will you fight the next election? The answer to that is yes, I'm guessing

I don't know. And also, even if I were to make that decision, I couldn't assume that a constituency association would actually choose me

So it's all up in the air at the moment. So you're not sure you're fighting. I'd assume you're fighting in Bolton West, but you haven't yet to come to that view

if I were to decide my tendency would be to focus on Bolton West because I live here

I've represented the community but for me it's a question for a little down the road

and you think it's not finally on this, you think it's not a flash in the pan

this support for Reform UK they are, they're ahead, maybe they're peaked maybe at 26, 28% there's

slightly falling, I mean have we gone past peak reform while we're on the way up with this party, the party going places

or is it just maxed out where it can be with the disaffection of the two main parties

I think there's still a huge scope for reform to strengthen, obviously, with all the travails in Parliament

There's a bit more focus on the Conservative Party holding the government to account. But I think so many people have lost faith with the Conservatives

Many voted for the Conservative Party year in, year out. And we got to the point where we had the highest wage of taxation since the Second World War

Yes, Labour's worse, but I'm not sure people want to go back to what we had just before

And what odds would you give Nigel Farage of becoming the next Prime Minister

I probably give evens at the moment but it a lot to fight for There a lot of work to do 50 chance Yeah And just very finally no chance there been talk this week

denied vehemently by Nigel Farage, of a pact with the Conservative Party

Do you want to see one happen or you've made your choice? Well, the Liberal Democrats are looking at the Labour Party at the moment

not challenging them in a meaningful way, because the Lib Dems are already angling for that

I don't think reform won't be in that position at all. Now, whatever the outcome of the general election is

you have to respect that and work within that framework, just as the Conservatives did with the Lib Dems back in the day

But you've got to go in this to win. I think Nigel Farage has a good chance of winning

And I can't see Labour turning anything around. And I can't really see the Conservatives convincing people

that they are the future. We can see them in the past, but I don't think the future

I think just finding on that, I think Kerry Bainock has convinced the kind of village who follow politics closely as our job to do so, that she has got it, certainly in dealing with Labour in the House of Commons

But outside of that, in the wider public, she's yet to make the mark because she's still behind where she was in the polls when she took over

Yeah, there's that. Also, I think most people around the country, when they're looking at the current government, they're looking at Rachel Reeves and Keir Starmer

they are slating these figures. Every twist and turn, there is so much, I think

contempt for the current Labour leadership. So Kenny Badenock scoring points off them

well, I think most people in the country can do that. So that's not as impressive as it seems

because Labour are in such disarray. And just finally, Chris Green, we're talking hours

after it's been revealed that a donation has been made of £9 million to Reform UK by Christopher Harbour

an entrepreneur. That is an extraordinary amount of money. You might argue that is a game changing for a small party like Reform UK

It the biggest single donation by a living person on record What your reaction to that It huge Really grateful for his backing and support for reform And this enables reform to do a huge amount of that work preparing the

manifesto, preparing the policy agenda as we move into the general election. And I think increasingly

people are finding that confidence in reform. It's not just a one-man band, important as Nigel

Farage is. It's a broader team and people want to come in and support that team. Well, Chris Green

former Tory MP for Bolton West, maybe the future reform MP for Bolton West

Depends what the electorate have to say in 2029. And if you stand as an MP, of course

thanks for joining us today on Chopper's political podcast. Thank you. Thank you

Chris Green, thank you for that. And thank you to Sir Ian Duncan Smith earlier

for joining us this week. It's been a great podcast as ever. I tweet at Christopher Hope on X

Email me with your thoughts on what Chris Green had to say. is Nigel Farrell's really 50-50 to become the next Prime Minister

Should the Labour Party, the Labour Government cut the benefits bill? Let me know

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