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Copyediting tips with Autumn Tompkins
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Feb 12, 2020
Grumpy editing tips for small business owners who want to take their copy from ho-hum to oh yum! Show Notes Autumn Tompkins Autumn’s Notes: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rPCYm35mkYeRumGrHKmFUL5W9jZSLQHenYvpF43Ey84/edit?usp=sharing Website: https://grumpygrammarian.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/autumn-tompkins-a5a5b67/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/grumpygrammarian/ Book: The Grumpy Grammarian's Guide To Copy Editing: Active Voice, Awkward Encounters, And The Oxford Comma https://www.amazon.com/Grumpy-Grammarians-Guide-Copy-Editing/dp/1732615713/
View Video Transcript
0:00
hey everybody welcome to the copy chat show my name is todd Jones
0:06
I am the host and here at the copper jet show we hang out at the intersection of
0:12
copywriting content marketing and digital marketing and the really cool thing about this show this is that I get
0:21
to talk about what I want to talk about so if I want to talk to somebody about long blog posts I can get them on there
0:28
or talk about it myself if I want to talk about value props or likability I
0:33
can grab a guest who can do that and today I get to talk about copy editing
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which is not my strong suit and I imagine for most of us it's not our strong suit which is why I'm happy to
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have the not so grumpy grammarian autumn Thompkins autumn feel free to tell us a
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little about yourself hi Todd I am copy
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editor extraordinaire but like you said I'm not so much grumpy about grammar and
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errors as I am more with like awkward social situations yeah so autumn has a
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fun way of talking about copy editing I sign up for our email list a couple
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years ago and I like every time it came out it took like five minutes to read because she didn't really make long
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emails or she didn't then and so they were they were really funny and they got the point across real well and I really
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enjoyed it and then she came out with a book and you want to tell us about your book absolutely thank you so much my
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book is called the grumpy premier inside copy edited and it's specifically for
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copy writers and small business owners so really want to tape their copy and
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improve it so they connect more with their audience and really at the heart
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of the book what it is is I read implementable tips and tricks and little
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tweak to language that could make them go from like how Hamzah Oh young
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Bauer yeah and and so she does that her chapters are very short so it's not like
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you know I think some I was reading a review on your page and and girl that we
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both know Tiffany was saying hey I was waiting for my computer to start up and I just started flipping through it and
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really enjoyed it so if if copy editing is something you struggle with and well I'll have it in the show notes by the
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way a link to her Amazon page but I would highly recommend you can get an
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Amazon Kindle version which is what I have or one of the paperbacks and I probably need to pay for back as well so
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anyway so what I'm gonna do this is something to start with Sophie so and
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you get to be the second person to answer these little quirky questions getting to know you a lightning round
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and maybe will be sponsored one day maybe about the copywriter club or something so you ready okay cake pie or
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cookies Oh apple pie okay all right
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favorite TV show ever wha lost oh yeah
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yeah yeah I watched a little bit out here there it was a JJ Abrams show I was a big alias fan so I remember when los
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was on so many good actors and actresses came out of that show and have appeared
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in others things no I was just a little side note I watched I said they're all
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does their window and then at the end when they got to I was like oh hey
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t1 right okay a little spoiler alert
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there if you haven't seen the lawsuit that's okay favorite holiday yeah yeah my mom has
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gotten to where she's made this skillet apple pie the last few years oh my gosh I'm not really normally a
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huge apple pie fan but that skillet apple pie is the bomb so I
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yeah yeah okay favorite author even k CB
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King comes mostly to stuff his men in the TV show and I'm a TV addict oh yes a
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lot of his stuff has been made in the shows or movies for sure and I haven't really read anything by him but obviously a lot of us have seen a
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Stephen King production of some kind so okay go-to karaoke song oh it's
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October and I can't remember the name of it okay don't know that one karaoke
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because you know these big vocals okay
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I'm always thinking about you know the words from heart you know kind of like what's the journey song just a small
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town boy that's long yeah so that would be a probably a go-to for me okay
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if you had a warning label what would your say warning probably probably
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approach with caution because you never know if I'm gonna be like a happy grumpy
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or a grumpy like there's just you never know and please talk to me I think
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there's probably a little bit at all that a lot of us have that as well but yeah approach with caution okay aside from the necessities of life
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what what is the one thing you can't go a day without
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oh I have to have TV that is the thing
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like it's the apocalypse ever and I would be so done because it gets my Tory
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Palin juices going and that's what every time I watch a show I have a notebook because I like to take notes about black
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women and little things that they say the dialogue so I wouldn't have any
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creative juices or minimal one if I
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didn't have proof that's a great idea I have a notebook I mean when I watch a
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movie you know we're not watch a movie or a TV show I'm just thinking I want to be entertained I want to fall into the
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story I don't go to movies to be a critic you know some people will go and they just love you know this movie is
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great or not great because of this or that you know I just I went to saw be I went to see the Harley Quinn movie
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Friday night just fill in to the story love Margot Robbie just yeah so that's
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what I like to do I don't want to go to but that's how I so I'm with you on that I got it I got to have some form of
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storytelling like that so let me tell you how to how to make it really
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productive when I take my notebook and I'm watching TV I call it research yeah
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there you go somebody asked difference between
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research and I forgot what they call it what they said you know we cuz we can
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wasting the day you know as a copywriter we do a lot of research right so I said
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the difference is documentation if you're documenting then you're researching if you're not documenting
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well you're wasting thought so okay next question would you rather ride
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a bike a horse or a car oh oh there man
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there Marv animals and I've ridden horses a few times as well that's actually the same answer that Sophie gave so I'm not
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really surprised to hear that because
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they suggest you don't be done with you where they outweigh you a trillion times and then like I don't know why yeah yeah
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that's true I've ridden horses and it's and fortunately I've had good horses that didn't want to buck me off so I'm
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pleased with that if you could live anywhere where would it be
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somewhere warm but not necessarily tropical teddy 70 degrees I'm funny all
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year long yeah yeah yeah we seem to get extremes here it's either really cold or
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really you know really warm so in Arkansas so I would like to have more
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money than my share of 70 degree days as well like exactly on Black Friday we got
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and two days later it was 45 degrees I'm in New York and it was like I didn't
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know what is going on I'm over this yeah yeah yeah yeah we've had a lot of swings
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and weather here as well so okay last question what celebrity would you like
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to meet for a cup of coffee oh well well that kind of puts me on the
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spot I would like to meet Denzel Washington we have the same birthday you
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know I'm with you on that I like Denzel he's one of my favorite actors in fact one of my go-to gifs is him going my man
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know from I'm not sure what movie that's from but that's one of my favorite go-to gifs so that should be one of my
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questions you know what's your go-to jiff it's a different world now so I may yet for the next time what's your go-to
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jiff just be careful because some people say yes so
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there's a there's a debate but I think the guy who created them cause of jiff
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so that's typically what I go it so you know you can debate if you would like
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but I'm going to I'm gonna go with okay
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so let's talk about copy editing tips for the average business owner and you
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have three for us today and we're so she's actually provided the the
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information for us as she's going over so there will be a downloadable Google document but and I'll get that in the
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show notes here in the next few days but if you want to go over those three copy
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editing tips with us that would be fantastic yeah absolutely and I mean not me
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anytime because otherwise I can just ramble but there's really three speed to
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copy editing and in particular my process so is making sure that your copy
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is clear making sure it's his body and then making sure compelling like you
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trick-or-treating on Halloween right you go home you can do on the table move
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through it don't like and then go and
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trade them with your siblings or your friends we get the pieces your new light
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so again that's kind of I'll copy editing work to make it clear is where
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you would dump your crap your hand out on a single and port fluid for any
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pieces that look lemon there are broken or you know they don't have wrappers
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with me should anything like that then can sorry is taking out the things you
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don't want and then being compelling is going to craving those pieces those
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pieces you do want and adding them back into your candy crush that's a pretty
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interesting analogy I never thought of it like that for sure her so talk about
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clear how would that work for an average business owner who's maybe writing an
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email for their email list sure absolutely making sure that your
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copy is clear is making sure that it's organized in a way that helps assist to
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the point of your let's say email your even though it should only have one
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message and that message should be easily understood because when it's
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under certain approach it--we and remembered some people are going to
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engage with you more so how would you go about doing that
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would be getting rid of cliches so their regional what everyone's going to
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understand them and they're also but overuse expression they don't where they
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lack originality well um they failed to you know like excite and motivate your
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reader well the kind that's gonna make the reader though well this is not very
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clear and I'm not really engaged so I'm not gonna finish reading your email you
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know we could say avoid cliches like the
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place okay so a better way to do that because like the plague is a cliche you
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would just say no please can you add excitement here copy another way to make
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sure your copy is clear is used for full word you know cleaner happy clear anyhow
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whatever you're right they aren't flowering or complex we're not Shakespeare right we're not
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trying to write plays so simple word
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they just make it Eugene for your reader to read your copy and again to
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understand it so you know like and sort of things missions jr. still simplify
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the words and simplify the message that
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are really long you start breaking up because people don't want to feel like
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they're reading a novel or a college asbury they want to get right to the
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point so the shorter the sentences the better you know any family more than any son
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since more than nine to eleven words is really too much and you gotta break it
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up with some sort of punctuation yeah I think a lot of people make the mistake
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and I can't understand this but trying to I mean our friend Joanne we'd like to
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say be you know be clear not clever I think some people try to be clever with
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what they're writing and so it's very important distinction that we're not trying to write Shakespeare that we're
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trying to write something that gets to the point we are not trying to write either journal you didn't journal or
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some kind of like prose that's gonna be in a book that that people are gonna buy
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I think that's important to to to differentiate absolutely and again no
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copies goes back to the copywriting principles that you're copying should be
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easily understood by anyone you know from Wi-Fi to 105 oh the clear
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is the easier to understand and and you said you can do that by eliminating
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cliches and using simple words and short sentences short sentences okay all right
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can you talk about on cliches when you
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use a cliche in the right way you make it your own so an example is like flying
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by the seat of your pants well you could do is make that clean under your own and
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right flying by the seat of my pants
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because it breaks up it doesn't feel like a cliche anymore so if you wanna
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show you the cliche find out how to make eat their own okay I'll have to ponder
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that one I have seen some people use cliche like lines but it wasn't a normal
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cliche it was like they made their own cliche up I've seen people like Joel
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click they do that before in different instances so I think that maybe that would be a summer thing you're you're
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basically making up your own cliche but it fits what you're what you're doing so
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and that kind of goes into one of my other for you the last one on being
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compelling so we can really talk about better than that okay the compelling
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Wallace we'll save that to the very end then let's talk about concise what does it mean to be concise with a business
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owners copy so being concise it means
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that you're copying short right we're taking a recon for by just your presence sure anything fine doesn't mean that it
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doesn't that you know that it lacks information it's definitely not lacking information
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it's just that the information is packed into bite-size words
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and it means that every word you choose has a job to do
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will you eliminate all the freeloader words because again when you're happy
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it's concise it's easy to read and readers want concise copy because when
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you write concisely it's better for now and better organized it really makes you
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think you know how can I say this without being flowery or any too many
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these words or words that don't have any meaning so an example of that would be
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having with sentences with certain phases there is or there are
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or like I mean like the field of
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branding so you could just say Brandon you know the length of or up
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they have no no meaning so it's really
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getting to the point and also these phrases they make your sentences longer
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than they need to be so if you can eliminate three four words and then you
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don't have to worry so much about sentence length and so I would say
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instead of like there's an error in your copy which might actually be
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misconstrued and had to avoid you could say the copy has an error very direct
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that brings up something and maybe just follows under the concise thing because
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I use because I'm not very good at this stuff and I'm terrible speller I use grammerly and grammarly is always
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hammering me about using passive voice and it says not to use passive voice and
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I'm assuming that you agree with well no I don't always agree with that
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there is a time and a place for passive voice you just have to decide where and
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once especially because I believe in
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speaking the way you would be for someone that you know we'll talk real
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language and if deep using passive words
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it's hard to tame your voice so I don't
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necessarily agree that tapped avoid is a bad thing I just think you have to choose wisely Wendy music yeah so how
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would you know as a good time to use it and when it's not okay so when you want
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to I don't want to miss really ladies present someone but when you want to say
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you know and I wish I could pull up let
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me see if I can find the real question because Barack Obama had a great example
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and is during the presidency of hiding a
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threat in a thief you know now getting political nearly that's not like you
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have fun but it's been a great example let me just bring it up right here but
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yeah um capture boys in wrong is kind of
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its old I mean it came to me effexor
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I had always thought it was kind of an
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academic thing and I was thinking about this the other day and so I was glad to
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hear what you said there we were told at least in copywriting and business copywriting to write like you speak well
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I notice especially here in the south we tend to speak and pass a voice and so if
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you're talking very academic like trying to correct all the passive voice you're
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cutting that out so that's kind of where I was I was that's why I was wondering what you had to say about that well one
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of those things feeling so he was
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referring to resolve in Iran's nuclear issue and he said time is not unlimited
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and he was using a rhetorical there a
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rhetorical nice Vidya logical niceties and bramley will mark that as passive
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voice not unlimited time is was not unlimited and it's not
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really passive it is half the voice but it has a more nuanced meaning and it's
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also a double negative so again it's not
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that it's not unfriendly that passive
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voice is always wrong because when you wanna have an implied you know you want
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to imply something yeah a good example is like you don't want to start an argument and
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someone so you freeze it in a passive voice disarms it a little bit yeah and
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then you're not playing the blame game because sometimes you play the blame game with that so again that the voice
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has the time in a place and I really believe in it okay
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that make sense to me I don't know that really has anything to do with being concise but hey hey okay
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okay let us talk about well is that all you want to say about being concise well
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actually you shouldn't use two words more effective so like and has most do
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with adding some sort of adjectives with it you know you did say she spoke softly
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during her interview okay so spoke softly do you mean whispered so that's what run instead of
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suits and mr. copy insight and another
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one was just kind of my pet peeve our valley girl words like whatever they
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just serve no purpose sorry you know you just say oh they're so ugly well why
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don't you tell me how ugly do you mean any of these you know like it's a short
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infant right up yeah so that so that would be an example of when not to use
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something like she might speak if you speak valley girl I don't think that's
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been around for 30 years so probably not
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because might well my knee since none of these pens and she gets this little
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headband she gets some of these words and that's right oh you're almost a
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valley girl but you know but that shows my age yeah his valued girl a thing anymore in
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modern you know I mean that was such that was so like 80s you know it was
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also kind of a California thing and the rest of us just kind of mimicked it you know I mean every regions got their own
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thing that they do right so my niece's are all beyond that ten-year-old when I
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have to wanted to fix it get married but yeah the other one there's a freshman in
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college and and so yeah they're beyond that I don't think they speak like valley girl I don't know they ever spoke
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like valley girl either what I'm in fact the younger one probably was very academic and how she spoke because she
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was always like very you know academic like so okay now you said compelling is your favorite
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of the Seas why is that it's emotional
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and that emotion is been a hostage or leader you know it captures their
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attention it holds it and causes them to nod their heads in agreement and then it
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says please do to take action so it
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depends on what kind of emotion you want to evoke but again that's up to whatever your
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content is about so a couple ways to do that is to get really specific because
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specific cells that's the bottom line be as specific as you can get you'll
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capture your readers attention they will click that buy button or set up that
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consultation or you know download whatever you want them to do so some of
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my favorite ways to do that is the first one is to get rid of words that are they
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like the word stop thing or go and I'm
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read a conversation people might understand what you're talking about but
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because they're reading what you're writing and might be misinterpreted they
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might not know what stuff you're talking about so you know instead of saying oh she put
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that stuff on her lip well what if she put out her lips you know like was it a
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flavorful lip gloss you know was it being who knows I mean what do you
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wanted it talking about so just getting very specific like that first of all
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it's super important and the word thing
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also bothers me a lot because and then you don't know what things you're talking about
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Oh for example you can say oh those things that won't help me be an entrepreneur well when you're having a
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conversation with someone I'm sure they'll understand what you mean yeah well when you're writing it out you
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know be specific what things you know a bad attitude and failure mindset there
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you go that is really and a number one
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that you and another set of words that you can look for to make your copy more
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compelling you know get rid of them make it well compelling is generic and
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emotional words so like the more descriptive the word the better people
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you know they'll say oh we're a market-leading or best in class is a
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great one for car companies you know but you've really got a bit descriptive with
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it because sure your market meeting but how are you leading the market what are
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you actually doing so you know if you're a restaurant you can say oh we change
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the way you eat oh it's just again get more that's that yeah I think you know
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and we talk about using that just like that Oh like there's a company there's a place in town that says at least I used
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to have a banner episode we best burger in town my first question is always
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according to I mean and that's the place
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where we're being specific comes like well is it according to the local newspaper is according to some other
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poll that was out or are you just making a claim and I think it hurt your credibility if you put out a claim like
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that without specifically mentioning where that claim comes from that's maybe
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kind of an aside one of the things that
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kind of I mean you make it more specific
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the more you're going to connect with your readers another great example is
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you know you say oh well they like cookies well what kind of cookies or DNS
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chocolate chips of you because then you're gonna keep your readers in so peanut butter for me
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I'm peanut butter cookie what I like is
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l4m Italian cookie look like a waffle
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cone I think what one area and going to
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the compelling in this specific and I'd like for you to address this but one area I see where people are not specific
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and I think it does hurt compelling cases in the call to actions so and I and I first picked up on this just from
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reading stuff a joke like a and and Joanna Wiebe and some of them but you
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know obviously submit or downloads pre generic you know and and I think people
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that's where you could be more compelling by being more specific
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absolutely and it's really a missed opportunity when you don't miss having a
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generic buy button I mean why would you say by now we need to say grabs my guide
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no it's not like it's extra words it's just more specific
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and it's taking you know everything that you send every word that you write has
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the opportunity to convert a process and you've got to figure out how to make
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those words work for you and not against you yeah now what do you think like a lot of
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e-commerce stores will have like Add to Cart or buy I mean is that it like you
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know I can understand a little bit because I mean they have thousands of products in there that you can buy from
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so I mean I guess maybe that's a case where something a little more generic
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might make sense it does but if you're a
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small start-up you know even a beauty company or you're you know you are
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making your own candles I don't anything where you're not a chain more I would
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really say that you could adjust those buttons Add to Cart especially because again
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it's just something that's gonna make your readers they don't weed it and it'll be almost like a pattern interrupt like I'm used to saying Add to Cart
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seeing add art what am I read in here wait what is this let me do this again so it's gonna make some absurd attention
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you brought up patterning or up just now and and I've seen other people talk
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about that recently is that a good example of being compelling using a
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pattern interrupt it is if it's short enough is concise right you can get them
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to the interruption and then it does its job then it's compelling but if you
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write like 300 words and then all of a sudden you finally did to the interrupts you're gonna lose people after 15 works
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oh yeah yeah so it's just you want me to work for you yeah yeah I would imagine it has to be
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fairly early in the process so and and and not you know yeah I don't that's a
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new concept to me but I certainly understand and and maybe it's something I can use more in the future
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I for small business owners business
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consultants or whatever you know we don't really realize how much we write I always tell people to get an Hanley's
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book everybody writes because so many great you know ideas in that book and
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but we write we may write our website copy we may write emails for our lists a
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landing page social media posts can really been copywriting up that is one
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thing that I've learned in the last probably five years is how much you can use copywriting in social media and I
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particularly like to tell people to consider using the PAS formula it's one
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of the few formulas that are short enough to really get into a social media
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post but how okay let's switch that as we wrap this up let's let's take the clear
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concise compelling because social media is where a small business or a business consultant is likely to do most of their
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copywriting can you talk about these three things and like creating a
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Facebook post sure absolutely so when people are on social media it
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doesn't really doesn't matter where they are but social media is where they tend to hang out they find your website and
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then sign up for your list really your email or the last place they're going to find you because you're on social media
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so go to your website they'll sign up for your newsletter then go me that's
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the emails the good stuff well the social media ideal you should
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be power to come for a story and you guys don't really want to see her all my
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product through this this and this they want to hear a story about how you made
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the product how you follow the product what your customers think
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how it helped one of your customers so the compelling part would be telling a
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story and some side part would be telling it the through words as possible
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and then keeping it clear your jargon don't use mumbo jumbo and technicalities
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that people aren't going to understand you know tell them really anything as
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loud as a good story people love look let me ask you about something in regards to social media and
40:12
copy-editing I see this a lot people will use a meme or a trending thing like
40:23
the broom handle social media posts what
40:35
do you think about using a meme like taking a meme and using it for your
40:40
business or using something that's trending like the broom standing up so
40:49
my favorite way is to make memes of myself you can go online and you can
40:58
find all of them like when they say I
41:07
don't know the little hole how the
41:13
little girl there Olsen twins yeah there
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you go and she's doing this oh you're in the back so you can do that yourself don't
41:30
use a meme when you could make a drip of yourself doing the same thing okay I do
41:40
know somebody who's actually done that so I think it's pretty clever that's exactly on my website I have one
41:49
of me doing my own Jeff it's so much
41:55
more harm is so because people like them
42:01
they like to look at them but now they're saying you instead of a celebrity so repurposing a jiff well
42:09
also I guess you could do that for a meme as well I mean there are mean generators that are already out there so
42:16
yeah yeah I just see some people and I
42:21
know what they're trying to do they're trying to to capitalize on something that's popper at the moment that's hot and I get it it's not wrong sometimes
42:30
you just see when you see enough people in your stream do that you've seen the
42:35
popular thing happened by 10 businesses in the same day and you're kind of like I'm over it
42:41
so a good way to do this too is with the
42:49
brain challenge that went on anymore
43:04
one is like you know let's say for example this whole we can break down the
43:11
broom phenomenon that you can do any day of the week it's not nothing gravity you
43:20
can say something like you know you've got I don't know Matt and say you know
43:26
something clever about my that's pretty
43:41
good our mobster can't stand up because they're too busy working I'm just gonna I'm gonna throw that to a friend of mine
43:48
who's a who runs a business that cleans houses so I think she I think she could
43:53
pull that off actually so I'm gonna pitch that to her see how it goes so
44:01
there's a fine wine between creativity and what you do and
44:09
if you can find that that's where you're gonna shine that's all about making it
44:15
compelling and putting your own spin on it yeah it is a fine line for sure and I
44:23
mean I guess just like anything else it kind of comes down to testing a little bit so can you tell people where they
44:32
can find you online I will put it in the show notes too but go ahead and tell us
44:38
really can find you online absolutely my website is the grumpy
44:45
grammarian calm and that gra my name I
44:59
fell just like this season I'm on instagram at grumpy grammarian and on
45:07
Facebook Marian yep yep that is her moniker and we had more time it would be
45:15
she tells about it on her about page I do encourage you to go to her about page and she tells the story about why she
45:22
calls herself the grumpy grammarian it's a great story unfortunately think we've
45:27
kind of spent our time today but man it was great they hear from you and to just
45:33
let you open your brain didn't give us a lot of great information great
45:41
congratu congratulations on the book I know that's been out what is it not you quite a year I guess is it a little over
45:47
a year okay well and I certainly appreciate you you have been very nice to answer some questions for me along
45:54
the way and so hopefully this will be helpful to you and hopefully it's helpful to my audience and I appreciate
46:02
you coming on the copy chat show and I feel like this is my first celebrity guest so all right omma until the next
46:12
episode I'll talk to you guys next time