Up next in 10
The leader of the Conservative party has told City AM she wants to see an "economic revolution" in the UK.
Kemi Badenoch sat down with Editor-in-Chief, Christian May and discussed how she'd reinvigorate the British economy with tax cutting measures.
Discover: where she'd find the money to pay for tax cuts, her view on the eye-watering cost of the state pension, her views on Elon Musk and AI.
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0:00
Kemi Badenoch, thanks for coming in. See
0:01
us at 6:00 a.m. Thanks for having me. Uh
0:04
it seems to me when you consider the
0:05
local elections that given that Labour's
0:08
result is apparently tied to Keir
0:10
Starmer's fate and Reform is, it would
0:13
appear, on the rise, that it's not been
0:16
as much focus on what those results
0:18
might mean for the Conservative Party
0:20
and for you. Are you just hoping to kind
0:22
of
0:23
sling through under the radar come
0:24
election night? Uh no, we are fighting
0:26
for every vote. What's changed is that
0:30
the two-party
0:31
political area has turned into a
0:33
multi-party political area. You know,
0:36
that increased polarization we're seeing
0:38
across society is manifesting in
0:40
politics. Every every tribe now has its
0:43
own party. I need my tribe to recognize
0:47
that the Conservative Party is the only
0:49
credible alternative to Labour.
0:52
We are the party of the center right. As
0:54
much
0:55
nice noise Reform makes, it's not real.
0:59
We are the ones who have fully costed
1:01
plans. We're the ones who are taking
1:02
this seriously. We've learned a lot from
1:04
the mistakes we made in the past. I'm
1:06
changing the party. I want people to see
1:08
that this is a new Conservative Party
1:10
with a new leader, not the one that
1:12
people said no thanks to 2 years ago.
1:14
>> We're going to come on to some of those
1:15
mistakes, as you put it, shortly. But
1:18
you mentioned that the old classic
1:20
two-party system
1:23
appears emphatically to be over. We can
1:25
demonstrate that actually if we look at
1:26
some of the data from our own polling.
1:29
There was a time, probably before this
1:32
monthly poll of ours began,
1:35
but you can see how
1:37
condensed
1:39
public opinion is now and where
1:42
there's so many different parties. How
1:44
do you, as a political leader,
1:47
forge a path through what is such a
1:50
crowded field? So uh
1:53
I didn't start my career in politics.
1:57
Almost everything that I do comes from
1:59
all the experience I had before
2:01
politics. And I am a conservative. I
2:04
believe in competition. Competition
2:06
should force you to be better.
2:09
You learn from your competitors and you
2:11
just make sure that you have the best
2:13
product on offer. That's what I'm I'm
2:15
doing. If you spend too much time saying
2:18
oh these people are terrible or they're
2:20
no good, you actually lose the
2:22
opportunity to sell what your offer is.
2:24
The Conservative Party brand is still
2:27
associated with the the past. I am the
2:30
new leader. This is the future that we
2:32
want to talk about. What is it that
2:33
we're going to do differently so that
2:35
people can see what we're about now. So
2:37
it's, you know, it's like New Coke, new
2:39
Conservatives. This is something that's
2:41
really really critical for the country
2:43
to understand that
2:45
we've changed our immigration policy.
2:46
It's a lot lot stronger. We tried
2:49
everything previously.
2:50
Didn't work. Now we said we're leaving
2:52
convention on human rights. The policies
2:55
on tax, for example, we were supposed to
2:58
be the low-tax party. People saw us
2:59
increasing taxes.
3:01
We need to be the party of lower taxes
3:03
and government that's focused on what
3:06
government should do, not what we're
3:07
seeing now where government has got its
3:10
fingers stuck into everything and that's
3:12
one of the things that's shrinking our
3:14
economy. But
3:15
but but but but but that's a that's a
3:16
lot of work and that's what I'm doing.
3:18
On the local elections then, what would
3:20
constitute a good night for you? So I've
3:23
told everyone that we've got to fight
3:25
for every seat because simply trying to
3:27
win certain places and and looking at a
3:30
a traditional vote doesn't help get the
3:32
Conservative message out there. So there
3:34
are some councils, you know, I was
3:36
talking
3:37
councils in the in the northeast, you
3:39
know, Sunderland, Newcastle, places
3:41
where we've never we've never won. But
3:43
it's still important that we have
3:45
representation there because we're the
3:46
only ones who hold Labour to account,
3:48
just like I'm doing in Westminster. I'm
3:51
forcing Keir Starmer to U-turn on bad
3:53
policy. That's making a difference, you
3:55
know, partial U-turn on family farms
3:57
tax. We're a low-tax party. We don't
3:58
want to see these family business taxes
4:00
that are actually destroying value
4:03
creation. That's made a difference to to
4:05
the lives of small businesses, of family
4:07
farms. And there's so much more that
4:09
needs to be there's so much more that
4:10
needs to be done. Uh
4:12
you know, a huge number of reasons why
4:13
there might be dis-
4:15
dissatisfaction with a Labour
4:16
government. But in many many places it's
4:18
not the Conservatives, as you just put
4:20
it, who are the only ones holding Labour
4:21
to account. It's your job in
4:23
Westminster. But in Wales, for example,
4:25
it's quite clear that it's neck and neck
4:27
between the nationalists and Reform.
4:30
Similar in Scotland, I think Reform are
4:32
second. It is the case that the Tories
4:34
could be completely squeezed out of
4:35
Scotland and Wales. So it isn't Nigel
4:38
Farage right when he says that under
4:40
your leadership Tory Party could just
4:42
cease to be a national party.
4:43
>> I I think that's wishful thinking. We'll
4:45
see in a few days, won't we? Well, I
4:47
think I think that's wishful thinking.
4:49
Nigel Farage has got his own problems.
4:50
He's taken actually quite a lot of the
4:52
problems that the Conservative Party
4:53
had. He's been doing my spring cleaning
4:55
for me. And I think people are beginning
4:57
to wonder whether he's what he says he
4:58
is. Today he's dealing with the a new
5:01
scandal about a 5 million pound cash
5:05
personal gift that he was given, which
5:07
was secret. I think that's going to run
5:09
for quite a long time. 5 million pounds
5:11
is a lot of money. That's bigger than
5:13
most parties receive, let alone one
5:16
individual. And there there lots of
5:18
questions to be to be asked about that.
5:21
I was in Wales just last week and people
5:24
there were talking about how Reform's
5:25
last leader is now in prison for taking
5:27
bribes from Russia. So he talks a good
5:29
game, but actually he changes his story
5:32
depending on who he's talking to. I
5:34
can't let that
5:35
distract from what the Conservative
5:37
Party has got to do, which is show that
5:39
we have changed and different. Plaid
5:41
Cymru has not been holding Labour to
5:43
account in Wales. In fact, they've been
5:44
joining them in making a mess of things.
5:46
They are a nationalist party. They are
5:48
separatists. They want Wales to be
5:50
independent. I think that would be a
5:52
disaster for Wales and a disaster for
5:54
the United Kingdom. We are the unionist
5:56
party. So we have a unique and credible
5:59
offer. Okay, let's move beyond the local
6:01
elections
6:02
as much as we're all very excited about
6:04
them.
6:05
Um
6:05
>> Have have you cast your vote, Christian?
6:07
Well, not yet. No, I enjoy I enjoy
6:09
walking down to the little church in
6:12
Wandsworth. You've got your eye on
6:13
Wandsworth, I assume.
6:14
>> We do have our eye on Wandsworth, on
6:16
Westminster, on on so many councils.
6:18
We've got to hold on to what we have as
6:20
well. Wandsworth is interesting because
6:23
many people there voted Labour 4 years
6:25
ago. They do not like what they have.
6:28
But we but as you said, there's
6:29
competition. We've got new parties that
6:31
weren't there before.
6:32
>> All right, we certainly have. Want to
6:33
move on now to the story that occupies
6:36
most of our editorial output here in one
6:38
way or another, most of the
6:40
conversations in our editorial meetings
6:42
and probably the biggest topic of
6:43
conversation among swathes of our
6:46
readership, which is the state of our
6:47
economy and the question of growth. Now,
6:52
we could have been having this
6:53
conversation in an environment in which
6:55
the war in Iran had not taken place
6:58
and frankly would still be addressing
6:59
some major major problems. The war in
7:02
Iran is going to have a very serious
7:05
impact on the economy in this country.
7:07
We heard it just today from the governor
7:08
of the Bank of England. There were fears
7:10
about where inflation could climb to,
7:13
where interest rates would have to
7:14
follow.
7:16
Let's start with that reaction to the
7:18
situation
7:20
in our economy because of the war in
7:21
Iran. But I do then want to get on to
7:23
some of the more foundational issues and
7:25
problems with the economy.
7:27
If you were in government now, if you
7:29
were confronted with the impact of the
7:33
Iran war on our economy, what sort of
7:35
responses would you be seeking to make?
7:38
So one of the the big concerns I have is
7:40
that there is no there's no baseline
7:42
resilience anymore. We are more exposed
7:45
than other similar economies because so
7:48
much has been weakened. So what's the
7:50
number one thing that I would do? Drill
7:53
our own oil and gas in the North Sea.
7:55
And this is not
7:57
this is not a small policy. It's
7:59
absolutely huge. There's 25 billion
8:01
pounds worth of tax revenue, not profit,
8:03
the taxes on the profit, that could come
8:05
from drilling our own oil and gas in the
8:07
North Sea.
8:08
There jobs disappearing. I was in
8:10
Aberdeen just the other day.
8:12
People are saying, "Please save our
8:13
Please save our city."
8:15
1,000 jobs a month are being lost in the
8:17
oil and gas sector. And
8:19
we need that oil and gas for our energy
8:22
security, our economic security,
8:24
financial security, and also national
8:26
security as well. We are importing
8:29
oil and gas from Norway who are drilling
8:31
in the same basin because we are
8:32
claiming that we want to be cleaner.
8:34
We're importing oil from Qatar and the
8:36
US who don't drill as cleanly. This
8:38
makes no sense at all. And at a time
8:40
when we're seeing supply shocks, the
8:43
best thing we can do is help with supply
8:45
rather than
8:47
just sit back and leave those resources.
8:49
So that would help the government
8:50
certainly in terms of getting more
8:51
money. It would help us in terms of
8:53
resilience. But the other thing that's
8:55
happening is that our energy costs are
8:57
so high, we are deindustrializing. I was
8:59
in Wales last week, the last refining
9:02
company in in Wales.
9:05
The the last one in Scotland is closed,
9:07
Grangemouth. The US has about 160, China
9:10
has about 200. I think we've got four
9:12
left. Something is happening to our
9:14
economy in terms of our ability to make
9:16
and create value. We know what happened
9:18
to our economy that led us to that
9:19
situation. That's not You can't blame
9:21
the Labour government for that. You
9:22
know, all of the energy policies that
9:24
that that are coming home to roost right
9:25
now were put upon this country under the
9:28
last Conservative administration,
9:30
successive prime ministers from Cameron.
9:31
It was the logical conclusion from
9:32
Cameron's, you know, Arctic ice cap
9:35
photo ops through to Theresa May's
9:37
great big net zero targets.
9:39
>> what was I saying at the time? I was
9:41
saying this is absolutely not what we
9:43
should be doing. When Theresa May
9:44
brought that legislation in, I was one
9:46
of two MPs, the other was a Labour MP,
9:48
who said, "What on earth are we doing?
9:49
What what what is the plan for this?"
9:51
And it's important because even when the
9:54
Conservatives had a more optimistic sort
9:56
of outlook on what would happen with
9:58
this agenda. Labour was saying, "Do
10:00
more, do it faster, do it harder." We
10:02
would be have been in a much worse
10:04
position if Labour had been in
10:05
government during that time. We now have
10:07
Ed Miliband tripling down on this, and
10:10
that really worries me. We need baseline
10:12
national resilience.
10:13
>> Okay, so you what you'd like to you'd
10:14
like us to be in a situation where we
10:15
had more resilience.
10:16
>> Yes, and and not also and and all of
10:18
that also means, you know, scrapping the
10:20
energy profits levy. I think it's a
10:21
terrible idea. It was
10:23
uh back when uh Jeremy Hunt put it in
10:25
when I was in government I was saying we
10:26
shouldn't do this. I was business
10:27
secretary, and so many of the things
10:29
that I was warning about have come to
10:30
roost. So, I tell people uh that as
10:32
business secretary I would have people
10:34
come into my office and say, "You need
10:35
to do something about business rates." I
10:37
couldn't do anything about it. The
10:38
Treasury responsible for business rates.
10:40
They'd say, "You need to do something
10:41
about corporation tax, you know, surely
10:43
you're the minister for corporations." I
10:45
said the Treasury owns that policy.
10:46
Basically, the business department was
10:48
like the customer complaints department
10:50
for government. All of the complaints
10:51
came to me, but the decisions were made
10:53
elsewhere. These are the sorts of things
10:55
that I want to change. We have been
10:57
hammering business in this country
10:59
across successive governments,
11:01
Conservative and Labour, for far too
11:03
long. That's why I want to see new
11:05
policies that take the burdens off
11:06
business.
11:07
>> Okay, so looking beyond the sort of
11:09
response to the crisis,
11:11
um
11:12
problems with our economy that have been
11:13
building up for for 20 years, for sure.
11:16
Um what sort of economy is it that you
11:19
would like to see in this country, and
11:20
in what way would it be different to the
11:22
one that we've got now? A situation with
11:24
the record high tax burden. There are
11:26
many, many people, particularly readers
11:29
uh and viewers of CCAM, uh who who just
11:31
feel like
11:32
they're standing still. They're what
11:34
doesn't matter if they get a promotion,
11:35
doesn't matter if they work harder, it
11:36
doesn't matter. That there are too many
11:38
obstacles and burdens in their way. Many
11:40
businesses will feel that. Many
11:42
individuals who want to get on in life
11:43
would feel that, too. What would be your
11:45
proposition to people who feel like this
11:47
isn't a country that's living up to its
11:49
end of the deal, and that there are too
11:50
many obstacles. It isn't working in the
11:52
way people had come to expect.
11:54
>> So, it it it's more than a feeling. It
11:55
is a reality. It's a fact. It's not just
11:57
that they feel this. That all the
11:59
statistics show, all of the data shows
12:01
that we have been standing still. Uh we
12:04
used to be doing a lot better than the
12:06
US. Now, if we were a US state, we would
12:08
be the the poorest, we'd be poorer than
12:10
Alabama and Mississippi on a GDP per
12:13
capita basis. I think that's terrible.
12:15
What we need is a mindset change, first
12:18
of all. It is not government that
12:20
creates growth. It is business that
12:21
creates growth. Actually, what
12:23
government needs to do is create the
12:24
conditions and get out of the way. And
12:26
for a very long time, we've assumed that
12:29
we we're a rich country, and what we
12:30
need is the government to step in, make
12:32
things a bit fairer. So, we have all
12:34
these interventions, all of these
12:36
schemes. We have, for example, uh just
12:38
giving you uh one of the most recent
12:40
things. Government whacked up the
12:41
minimum wage, changed the thresholds at
12:43
which the minimum wage would apply, so
12:45
lots of part-time people getting dragged
12:47
into it. Put up on a jobs tax that um
12:49
employer NI increase, and now young
12:52
people can't get jobs.
12:54
And what's the government done? It's now
12:55
offering a little bit of a bung to
12:57
businesses that if they can employ a
12:59
young person on benefits, then they'll
13:01
give them, you know, I think up to
13:02
£3,000. This is terrible. The government
13:04
has made a mess, and then is now
13:06
offering businesses a little a a
13:07
sticking plaster for
13:08
>> is it you're calling for? Are you
13:09
calling for some seriously dramatic
13:12
changes to level of state expenditure,
13:14
to level of of personal and corporate
13:17
taxation? This does feel like a
13:18
situation that requires a dramatic
13:21
change, not just of mind of mindset, as
13:23
you put it. But you need if the mindset
13:25
is not there, then we're going to end up
13:26
with all of these tweaks and schemes and
13:28
micro policy. Now, the challenge that we
13:31
have is making sure that the numbers add
13:34
up. We saw what happened with the budget
13:36
of 2022, when there were lots of, you
13:38
know, really lovely uh deregulatory
13:41
um you know, pieces of uh the policy
13:43
changes, which actually were not um the
13:46
books were not balanced at the same
13:47
time. I think the worst thing about that
13:49
budget was many people assumed that
13:50
deregulation and tax cuts were the
13:52
problem, when it was the £150 billion of
13:56
uh uh subsidizing people's energy bills.
13:59
>> like to revisit some of those policy
14:00
ideas.
14:00
>> we have to we have to balance the books
14:02
first. Would you like a 40p So, I'm not
14:05
so so I'm not announcing any new
14:07
policies. I would like to bring taxes
14:09
down much lower, but we need to make
14:11
sure that we can afford it first. That
14:13
means we need to look at cuts in
14:15
spending. That is why our first policy
14:18
announcements have been about bringing
14:19
down the welfare bill. It is
14:21
astonishing.
14:23
Uh this month we found out that we are
14:24
now spending more on welfare than we get
14:28
in income tax. The rider is now heavier
14:31
than the horse. This is unsustainable.
14:33
>> know the biggest part of that budget,
14:35
you know the biggest part of that budget
14:37
is the state pension. So, And you know
14:38
that the triple lock is something I
14:40
mean, you will be having private
14:42
conversations, people will tell you this
14:43
and that, you know, there does seem to
14:45
be a private consensus emerging in
14:47
Westminster that this is something which
14:49
is utterly unsustainable. So, we have
14:51
said very clearly that if we were
14:53
growing at 2 3%, the triple lock would
14:55
not even be a conversation that we're
14:57
having. The triple lock is a symptom of
14:59
a more fundamental problem, which is
15:01
growth. We've got to start with growth.
15:04
Changing the triple lock is is is
15:06
redistribution. This is again, it's
15:07
still a left-wing mindset. Well, there's
15:09
too much money here, let's shift it over
15:11
there. That is not game-changing. And
15:13
when uh the last Conservative government
15:16
first came in in 2010, there was a lot
15:18
of pension of poverty. The state pension
15:20
is what, 12 and 1/2 thousand pounds?
15:22
That's not not very much money to live
15:24
on. We are getting poorer, and we're
15:26
unable to afford things that we should
15:28
be able to afford. We're getting older
15:30
as a society, we need to look at the way
15:32
we work, you know, how we deal with an
15:33
aging population. Most of, you know,
15:35
it's local government elections, most
15:37
people don't realize that councils spend
15:39
most of their money on adult social
15:41
care. We have got to look at all of
15:43
these things from the ground up. They've
15:45
all got to be linked. Our defense policy
15:48
is linked to our energy policy. Our
15:49
energy policy is linked to our business
15:51
policy. Our business policy is linked to
15:53
education policy. All of these things
15:55
just being announced one at a time
15:56
randomly is part of the reason why we're
15:59
in this mess. So, what I'm talking about
16:01
is quiet revolution. I want an economic
16:04
revolution. But I've got to make sure we
16:06
can find the funding and the savings
16:07
first. And I want to do it all at the
16:09
same time so that people can see it's
16:10
real. You'll notice that I don't have to
16:14
um I I don't have to uh U-turn on my
16:16
policies. Nigel Farage wants more
16:18
benefit spending today, less benefit
16:20
spending tomorrow. Keir Starmer, it's
16:22
U-turn after U-turn. When I say
16:23
something, it sticks, cuz I've done my
16:25
homework. I'm not making promises
16:27
without a plan. So, you talk about an
16:29
economic revolution. What would be the
16:31
components of that? What are the areas
16:33
you lay out the components here? Some of
16:35
that's going to be fiscal, some of it's
16:36
going to be supply side, some of it's
16:37
going to be public expenditure.
16:40
What does it look like? So, a good um
16:43
Conservative policy uh when it comes to
16:45
the economy has to rely on our
16:48
principles. Lower taxes because people
16:51
individuals are better at allocating
16:52
their capital than the state does. This
16:54
is why uh I talk about a state doing
16:56
fewer things, but doing them better.
16:59
What would it stop doing? What would it
17:00
stop doing? There are many things that
17:02
it could stop doing. As I said, I'm not
17:03
announcing policy today, but I do give
17:05
lots of examples of things that there
17:07
there are thousands of the things that
17:09
the government does. Do we need a new
17:10
football regulator? No, we don't. I
17:12
mean, just look at the new quangos that
17:14
Keir Starmer has set up. We don't need
17:16
these things. It's just more and more
17:17
government trying to fix problems the
17:19
government has created. We also need
17:21
flexible uh flexible working, flexible
17:24
Sorry, not flexible working. Flexible
17:25
labor markets. We are becoming more and
17:27
more like Europe, and we're having more
17:29
and more European-style problems.
17:31
Like youth unemployment. Youth
17:32
unemployment was always lowest in in the
17:35
UK. We are now worse than countries like
17:38
Italy. This is because of uh us limiting
17:41
our flexible uh
17:43
uh labor market. This is because we are
17:45
making it more expensive to hire
17:46
younger, more inexperienced workers. We
17:48
need to deal with that. We need to deal
17:50
with a lot of regulation. This was what
17:52
leaving the EU was supposed to be about,
17:55
us competing better rather than being
17:57
more left-wing than them now that we
17:58
didn't have the restrictions on that.
18:00
So, there are many things that we can
18:01
do. So, I'm very optimistic and
18:03
aspirational. But we've got to make sure
18:05
that it adds up and makes sense. We
18:07
can't just rush out with the sugar
18:09
before baking, you know, the cake. And
18:11
that requires um or rush out with the
18:13
icing before baking the cake. That
18:14
requires a lot of thinking. That's what
18:16
I'm spending my time now. I'm using my
18:18
time in opposition wisely. Keir Starmer
18:20
did not have any ideas uh about
18:23
government. He spent all his time on
18:25
things like removing hereditary peers
18:27
and assisted suicide, things that aren't
18:29
going to improve uh people's lives on,
18:31
you know, on a general basis. Nothing
18:33
that improves quality of life. That's
18:35
what we're working on now. So, you're
18:36
working on this proposition that you're
18:38
going to take to the country at the time
18:40
of the next election. We will come out
18:41
with that uh we'll come out with quite a
18:43
few things before that.
18:43
>> balance the kind of honesty that I think
18:46
you're beginning to refer to about the
18:48
scale of some of the problems
18:50
with a sense that it'll be worth it,
18:53
it'll be okay. You know, follow me, I
18:55
know where we're going, and things are
18:56
going to get better, because,
18:58
you know, it's my job as a newspaper
18:59
columnist to to constantly point out
19:01
where we're going wrong. But, you know,
19:03
you have to do a bit of that, but you
19:04
also have to convince people
19:06
that it's worth coming with you, and
19:07
that there's a better future ahead of
19:08
us.
19:09
How do you balance that? Because the the
19:11
problems are enormous, and you're not
19:13
yet prepared to set out the solutions.
19:15
So, there are some solutions that we
19:17
have set out. You do have to You've got
19:19
You've got to show people where the New
19:20
Jerusalem is. You've got to show them
19:22
that you there is hope coming. So, tough
19:24
messages like we've got to cut welfare,
19:26
but also, let's abolish stamp duty. That
19:28
is a tax cut, so it fits with our
19:30
principles. It's lower taxes. I hate
19:32
transaction taxes. Um I've got a piece
19:34
of work uh at the moment looking at
19:36
whether we can look, you know, uh you
19:38
remove other transaction taxes that a
19:40
lot of people in the city say make our
19:42
economy worse. We haven't got a policy
19:43
announcement yet, but we're looking
19:45
>> You're looking at doing that. You're
19:46
removing stamp duty from share
19:47
transactions.
19:48
>> so many people in the city have said
19:50
this has got to be done. Uh for us to do
19:52
that, I need to make sure that the books
19:54
are balanced. How do we work this out?
19:56
But uh we can see the transaction taxes
19:58
uh creates friction. So, I've done one
20:01
huge transaction tax that a lot of
20:03
people understand, stamp duty. We will
20:05
abolish it uh when a Conservative
20:06
government comes in. But those are
20:08
signals so that people can see what kind
20:10
of Conservative I am, what kind of um uh
20:13
thinking we're doing. Now, that's not a
20:14
policy announcement, that's research
20:16
that we're doing. How could we do this?
20:18
What is in the realms of the of of of
20:20
the possible. But we're working with a
20:22
lot of businesses um in the city. Those
20:25
are some of the things they'd like to
20:26
see. We want to make sure that if we do
20:28
announce something along those lines, we
20:30
can uh afford it. And if we don't, we
20:32
can explain why that's not what we're
20:34
doing, here's something else that we're
20:36
doing. But it's got to add up. Uh I want
20:38
people to see that we're looking at
20:40
deregulation in and of itself. There are
20:42
so many things that we do that aren't
20:44
necessarily fit for purpose. And in a
20:46
world where AI is coming in and uh you
20:49
know, quantum computing, so much is
20:51
changing, pretending that we're still
20:53
living just after the Industrial
20:54
Revolution or in the 1950s and having
20:56
regulation for a factory workforce uh
20:59
made up of uh
21:00
of of young people just doesn't really
21:02
add up.
21:03
You just mentioned AI. We've only got a
21:05
few minutes left, I'm aware of that and
21:07
uh a few quick I've got a It has gone
21:09
quick. I've got a few quick questions to
21:11
throw at you towards the end. But before
21:12
that, just bear with me cuz you
21:14
mentioned AI and I'd like to know your
21:16
your thoughts on it. First of all, I'd
21:17
like to know whether you use it and if
21:19
so, what what it is that you use. But
21:20
but also more broadly, you've been very
21:22
vocal in some of the debates around
21:24
banning social media for under 16s and
21:26
and kids access to smartphones.
21:28
I've got young children as well and
21:31
feels to me a little bit like that
21:32
conversation is going to get squeezed
21:34
out pretty quickly
21:36
in place of a conversation about kids
21:37
access to AI. Do you worry about AI? Do
21:40
you think we should put AI in the same
21:41
bracket as you've been campaigning on
21:42
social media, for example? So, uh I do
21:45
worry about AI, but I'm still a tech
21:48
optimist. I'm a I'm a cynical optimist.
21:50
So, you asked what I use it for. So, I
21:52
use Microsoft uh Copilot. I do It It's
21:54
It's basically taken over from the
21:56
Google searches uh which I used to do.
21:58
Uh ChatGPT
22:03
is within Microsoft uh Copilot. It makes
22:06
uh It It just makes five searches, eight
22:08
searches into one. You can just get
22:10
straight to the thing that you're
22:11
looking for. Um I think that's great for
22:13
productivity. I do think AI right now is
22:17
uh stripping out a lot of entry-level
22:19
jobs, which is impacting young people
22:22
sort of 18 to sort of 28. They They They
22:24
are having um They They are the ones
22:26
bearing the brunt of it. I don't think
22:27
that that's going to be the long-term
22:29
uh outcome. You think we should be more
22:31
positive about it in the long term? In
22:32
it So, we always overestimate things in
22:35
the short term and underestimate the
22:37
impact in the long term. Uh I think that
22:39
we need to make sure that we stick to uh
22:41
first principles with these things. I
22:43
don't want China to be the the leader in
22:45
AI. I want that to be the UK where where
22:48
possible. The US at the moment is
22:50
leading. What are we doing to make sure
22:52
that we're staying ahead? We can barely
22:54
get data centers here. Our energy costs
22:56
are too high. That's the kind of thing
22:57
that I'm really worried about. I'm also
22:59
worried about the current young We We We
23:01
We might lose a generation. Uh lots of
23:03
corporations are wrongly, in my view,
23:05
not taking up as many graduates. I think
23:07
that they're going to find further down
23:09
the line the pipeline is going to be
23:11
eroded. And uh a lot of young people are
23:13
not learning the skills which they
23:14
should do, the kind of things I was
23:16
learning 20 years ago when I was
23:18
starting my uh you know, I starting out
23:20
in my career. Those skills may disappear
23:23
if we don't think about them. And
23:24
they're not the sort of things that we
23:25
think about when we're talking about uh
23:27
skills, which are often more um uh you
23:30
know, more physical or you know,
23:32
do we have oil and gas skills or
23:34
building skills or construction and so
23:35
on. So, I do worry that that's not
23:37
really being thought about. Um I don't
23:39
want us to be like the EU when it comes
23:40
to AI regulation. They've effectively
23:42
regulated themselves out of AI
23:44
completely. Uh when it comes to how
23:46
children use it, uh I think to be
23:49
honest, it's really how everyone's using
23:50
it. Um I actually had an interesting uh
23:53
conversation uh last year with Sam
23:56
Altman where he said He talked to me
23:57
about how he was worried about the way
23:59
people were using it. That some people
24:01
are just deciding not to make decisions
24:03
anymore and they're asking AI, "What
24:05
What What should I eat today? Where
24:07
should I go?" Where people have
24:08
completely outsourced thinking. That
24:10
worries me uh because if adults are
24:12
doing it, then children will not even
24:14
learn how to make decisions for
24:15
themselves. Okay. All right, we're going
24:17
to have to wrap it up and I'll do so um
24:20
with a few quick questions.
24:22
Quick questions, maybe quick answers. Um
24:25
Keir Starmer famously said that
24:27
uh he doesn't read books or he doesn't
24:28
have a favorite book at the very least.
24:30
Do you? What's your favorite book? I do
24:31
Well, do you fiction or non-fiction?
24:33
>> Oh, fiction, please. Vanity Fair. All
24:36
right.
24:36
>> Vanity Fair is my is my favorite
24:37
fiction. Fair enough. Um
24:40
big debate about uh the price of of air
24:42
travel and and jet fuel supplies at the
24:43
moment, but summer's coming up, summer
24:45
holiday. You going to staycation or go
24:46
abroad? Uh both.
24:48
>> [laughter]
24:49
>> That's a That's a good answer. I like
24:50
that one. But um and and and when you're
24:53
staycationing, perhaps you'll be in
24:54
London for a little bit as well. Uh
24:55
what's your favorite spots in London,
24:57
favorite restaurants in London?
24:59
Ooh, that's a tough one. Maybe favorite
25:02
pub, perhaps? Um
25:04
It would have to be So, in London, the
25:07
thing is I just So, this is one of the
25:09
sacrifices um
25:11
that happens to you when you become
25:12
leader of the opposition. You don't You
25:13
don't get to socialize uh that that
25:15
much. So, I end up having a lot of meals
25:17
at home. But if I was to say what is my
25:21
fav- the the restaurant like So, where
25:23
would my husband take me for an
25:25
anniversary? Local, we'd probably um
25:28
have uh a curry in Wimbledon. Uh but if
25:30
we were in Central London, probably
25:32
Maison François or somewhere somewhere
25:34
near Westminster. I'm eating a lot in
25:35
Westminster You would not go to Maison
25:37
François. You'd be surrounded by spads
25:39
and journalists. It'd be a nightmare.
25:40
[laughter]
25:41
That that I like their food and I like
25:44
their cream puffy things. Um
25:46
That's That's That's That's That's are
25:47
probably the um
25:48
Those are probably the two. So, in
25:49
London, yes. Um and then in Essex,
25:53
always um
25:54
uh we we have um some local pubs uh
25:57
which we go to. Uh they tend not to
25:58
serve food, but um my kids love hanging
26:00
out there. So,
26:02
the the Bull in Langford is probably our
26:03
favorite one.
26:04
>> All right. Thanks for the tip. Uh Elon
26:06
Musk, is he a goody or a baddy?
26:12
I think that Elon Musk is overall a
26:16
goody who does some naughty things from
26:18
time to time. I think that's the easiest
26:19
way to uh to put it. I think I think
26:22
that um he's been a great advocate for
26:24
free speech. I think sometimes he
26:26
crosses the line. Um I think what he did
26:28
with PayPal and Tesla and all of the
26:31
work on, you know, uh Starlink, I think
26:33
that we should we should celebrate that.
26:35
They There's obviously brilliance there.
26:37
Um but I think the sad thing about
26:41
the world we live in now is that you you
26:43
see too much of people. Like social
26:45
media means that things that you would
26:47
never have known about people, it's it's
26:49
it's all out there. Um and uh I'm sure
26:52
plenty of your colleagues in the House
26:54
of Commons would agree with that,
26:55
perhaps having shown a bit too much of
26:56
themselves uh in the past. Okay, um if
26:59
we were to look through your Spotify
27:00
playlist, what do you think would be top
27:02
played, top most played?
27:05
Taylor Swift.
27:06
Taylor Swift.
27:07
>> Yes. Yes, she's she's she's very She's
27:09
she's very cheery. All right.
27:11
>> [laughter]
27:11
>> All right. And do you
27:12
>> upbeats. Upbeat pop. And do you listen
27:15
to any podcasts?
27:16
No. No, I am So, I will sometimes listen
27:20
to a newsy podcast like The Daily T if
27:22
they've got something um I think Camilla
27:24
Tominey uh and Tim Stanley are quite
27:26
interesting. Um
27:28
They're They're load They're They're all
27:30
They're too many podcasts, so I end up
27:32
reading the news write-ups about the
27:34
podcast rather than the uh rather than
27:36
the podcast itself. Um I think Sarah
27:38
Vine had a podcast that um
27:40
uh on the Daily Mail that I listen to.
27:41
So, the the newspaper podcast. Mhm. Uh
27:44
but there's there's so much news out
27:45
there. There's Times Radio. Sky News has
27:48
got a podcast.
27:49
>> City A.M.'s got a podcast. Yeah.
27:52
>> I mean, to be fair, only launched 2 days
27:53
ago.
27:53
>> So, all right, I see. So, no no, most of
27:55
the time I listen to Heart FM. Um
27:59
uh So, so that's that's that's what I'm
28:00
listening to.
28:01
>> similar in this regard. We both I mean,
28:03
obviously you're a
28:04
a vastly higher level, but both of us
28:06
are pretty much surrounded by the news
28:07
agenda one way or another throughout the
28:09
day from dawn to dusk. And if you get
28:10
time where you don't have to be doing
28:12
that, you're not going to choose to do
28:13
it even more.
28:14
>> Exactly. I think podcasts are great for
28:16
people who dip into news. Whereas if you
28:19
live in news, then you don't need the
28:21
podcast.
28:23
>> I write the news. Okay, um I think that
28:26
just about wraps things up. It's been
28:28
very interesting to talk to you. Good
28:29
luck in the local elections. Oh, I have
28:30
one final question. We forgot to in the
28:32
spirit of local elections,
28:33
I know the London mayoral elections are
28:36
a little further out, but are you
28:38
already thinking about those? First of
28:39
all, should Sadiq Khan run again and
28:41
what kind of candidate do you think
28:43
would give the Tories their best shot in
28:44
London? Sadiq Khan should not run again.
28:47
He has been absolutely dreadful for
28:49
London. He's taken out a lot of the joy
28:52
and the optimism. You know, when Boris
28:53
Johnson was mayor of London, it felt
28:55
like such a positive city. Now it's
28:58
endless phone thefts and shoplifting and
29:02
you know, violence. We have We had it
29:04
this horrific uh stabbing in Golders
29:07
Green yesterday, increases in
29:09
anti-Semitism. And I don't think his
29:11
response
29:12
to that has been good enough. So, we are
29:15
looking for um new mayoral candidates.
29:17
One of the things um that we're going to
29:19
be doing uh after the local elections is
29:21
more exciting more exciting work on
29:23
candidates. This is a new Conservative
29:25
Party under new leadership. We want new
29:26
people coming in, people who share our
29:28
values, but who are bringing um a little
29:31
bit of
29:32
uh a little bit of fizz and excitement.
29:33
So, we want uh we want to headhunt some
29:36
amazing candidates uh for mayor of
29:38
London. They're going to have lots of
29:40
stiff competition. They're well-known
29:41
people within the party who want to do
29:43
it. So, I think we're going to be in a
29:44
good place. But London London deserves
29:45
better. And we've got um for for these
29:48
locals we've got a campaign to take back
29:50
our streets, you know,
29:51
10,000 more police officers, live facial
29:54
recognition, tripling stop and search,
29:57
you know, all these people carrying
29:58
knives and and guns and so on. We want
30:00
them stopped and searched. And the
30:01
people who are spraying graffiti
30:03
everywhere going to have to clean it up
30:05
under our plans for immediate justice.
30:08
So, there's lots This is why you need to
30:09
vote conservative at the local
30:10
elections. It's not just abolishing
30:12
business rates for small businesses or
30:13
abolishing stamp duty. It is taking back
30:16
our streets. That's quite important.
30:17
Wouldn't hurt for London to have a a
30:19
seasoned a seasoned business figure as
30:21
mayor, would it? No no no, it wouldn't.
30:23
I think we've seen what happens when the
30:26
mayor is not interested in business. I
30:27
don't think Sadiq Khan is interested in
30:29
business at all. He thinks it's just
30:31
there that it's that the city is there
30:33
and it's something to be squeezed rather
30:36
than something to be nourished. All
30:38
right, Kemble North, thank you very much
30:40
indeed.
30:40
>> Thank you.
#News