Tavis Smiley's Vision for Black America's Future | SWAY’S UNIVERSE

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my man right here man I tell you Heather I tell you man alongside my
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brother Ed Gordon um oh yeah there's there's a couple Brothers in this business that
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I've always admired even before I knew them cuz I love their voice I love their
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audacity right I love their Vision I love their autonomy I loved everything
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about the way they moved I love how they how they never ran in the face of adversity I love how they stood up for
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who they are are and still continue to do so and this brother right here is somebody who I've stayed connected with
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over the years um and even if we ain't talking I'm talking through my sister the
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poetes who we both share as a loved one in our families the New York Times
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best-selling author Advocate philanthropist voice of the people
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Smiley audio media um this guy right here is the blueprint if you ask me here
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to talk about the book The Covenant with black America which was released 20 years ago wow please welcome back to the
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show The One and Only Tavis Smiley man come on way you are too kind Heather Tracy nice to see everybody good to see
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you again as well this is a serious production up in this joint man got real
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come on I'm I'm in a little tiny Studio out in La every day this is a production man well you know we we we we took a
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ball of clay and molded into a a statue yeah I love it and let me let me let me just commen right quick by saying
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everything you said about me I say ditto about you I I have mad respect for brothers and sisters who exercise their
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agency and their right to self-determination amen and when you stepped out I mean I look at all these folk now and I ain't trying to call her
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names I ain't trying to you know no shade and you know not Cas any aspersion on anybody but I look at all these folk
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now who are in the game doing what they're doing um but you you're like the Og man yeah you you you you showed us
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how to control and own our own content you know Prince was a friend of mine of course and Prince used to always tell me
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for years tab is own your content own your content content is King before he
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died we had a conversation he said I think I was right about the fact that content is King but I now believe that
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distribution is Emperor content is King but distribution is Emperor and so you've shown us over
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the years how to own your content how to control your distribution so I bow down I'm in this chair so I can't get on my
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kn well you know U thank you for
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that I received that brother thank you man I I I talked to a good friend of
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mine uh Chris and um he's a venture capitalist and I never asked him about
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financial advice right I just just we worked on something else that was philanthropic dealing with folks behind
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prison bars and one day I said we were talking about um Bitcoin and all these
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different things when that was was coming out right and I said hey man is that something you would invest in and he said I sway I invest in the nuts and
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the boats mhm I like what does that mean like I acted like I knew what it meant
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right I didn't want to seem stupid but the infrastructure yeah I see you know and what Prince was on back then saying
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that distribution is the Emperor on the infrastructure I sat with Prince for
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hours at one time and he was warning me about the internet and I was like man how you going you know this is coming
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bro you know right he used to always talk about but that's a sway that's a black hole sway you you're investing in
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the black hole don't let it take over you why was Prince like how did he have
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so much foresight man like he yeah he had premonitions almost right I I've yet to figure it out myself first of all I
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miss him every day I miss him every day we used to talk all the time um and uh I I'm amazed all these years later at the
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things about which she was right yeah so I I've come to believe um here's my short answer to your question I've come to believe that there's some folk who
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walk amongst us who are prophets mhm so I make a distinction when you talk about
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Dr King uh Dr King was not a politician um he was in fact a prophet
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and there's some folk who just have this capacity it is god-given you can't you can't earn it you can't buy it um it's
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just it's an unmar favor it's just it's just a gift right um but they have this sense of the future they have this
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capacity to prophesy and there are artists who are like that that um you know there are there are certainly U
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individuals in variety of spaces who just have this gift to see down the road and I I I can't you know I can't explain
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any more than that Prince was just gifted in that way so every time he spoke I listened so I have someone in my
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circle that's like that and I almost hate when she tells me stuff because it scares me yep you know and I and he the
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be once told me that I was going to be doing something in my career yo yo tabis
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I love it it was something that was the furthest thing from my mind it would
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require me to go backwards in order to Mo go forward it just no reason no way
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Rhyme or Reason would I be doing what she said I was going to be doing in a year's time and I ended up doing it
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right the the the universe aligned itself and somehow I ended up doing what Heather said I think she's falls into
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that category can you can you whisper in my left ear here I want six numbers for the lottery
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as somebody once wrote tell tell me something good no listen I always say that's not anything but I agree with you
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wholeheartedly we we had a guest recently that kind of said they don't believe in in in that kind of thing but
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that's not anything that I certainly couldnot take credit for it's a gift and we have to nourish our gifts we have to
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be careful with our gifts and so anything in terms of um being obedient
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and just you feel these messages you want to share amongst your family and friends you just do so you're not looking for anything in return and you
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know and and some folk as you know he some folk don't have how might I put this some folk don't have the courage to
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say what they see see just like there are folk who can see down the road and they will tell you that there other folk
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who will have a vision again not to prze the B the Bible we've already read said where there is no vision the people
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perish somebody's got to have a vision right but there's some folk who get a vision and they're so scared of it that
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they won't step into it or they see things that they're afraid to say for the push that they may get right
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somebody once told me years ago sway Heather Tracy all of us we I think we canate with this somebody once told me years ago that the best ideas in the
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world can be found in the graveyard yep the best ideas in the world can be found
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in the graveyard too many people go to their graves with good ideas visions that they never pushed out
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so you want to find the best ideas go to the graveyard start digging that's that's where they are but but but relatively speaking so few of us
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actually ever step out on faith and do the things that we know we have the
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capacity the the the vision the idea to do and that's why I said earlier I started out by celebrating sway because
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again there a lot of people trust me there are a whole lot of folk I I it is never lost on me that there there are a
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lot more people than I could ever count who are far more talented than I am I I have people in my circle my best friend
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from college I hope you ain't listening right now this this Negro has more talent in his baby finger
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than I have in my entire body and that is not a false sense of humility this Negro can do 20 different things well
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and could have been a millionaire many times over in any one of those Arenas wow his problem was he never
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chose he never decided he was going to focus on this particular thing step out and do it so I know that there are
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people who are far more talented than I am but I committed myself to the vision
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um that I see for how I can show up in the world I work hard every day I Stay
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focused every day and God is you know God has blessed me and things sort of worked out am but but it's not it's not
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me being more gifted more talented than anybody else it's just again it's just focusing on that thing that you that you're that you're called to do and
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choosing it yeah have Smiley disciplined same the the bestselling book came out
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20 years ago the Covenant with black America and then it was re-released this year I want to tap into that cuz you
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gathered like a assembly of intellectuals to y'all explore racial disparities uh Health Care housing
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environmental justice all of these different um topics that you covered in that book then I want to find out where
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do you think Black America stands today but before I do that you remind me Tavis
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of you know growing up in the 70s I I had a lot of um uncles right and and my
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big brother a couple years older than me we're all the same though and I miss
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hearing black men who have lived Beyond 50 years speak
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M I just miss it bro I miss the the camaraderie I I miss you know the
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vulnerability I miss the wisdom wisdom I grew up with Uncle Stanley Waters who I
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just talked to on the phone recently and we talked for 90 minutes with u my lovely Auntie Shirley Waters I miss my
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Uncle Robert Waters who's cousin C's father they fought in the Vietnam War
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they went through the Civil Rights Movement the whole n and they just constantly fed us and today we had a
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topic about elderly people not elderly but people who are older than you that give you information that has benefited
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you and I you know I hear all this talk about black men you know black men voting black men this black men that you
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know and I feel like it's cheap I feel like it just came around because of this
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political time hold up man y ain't been mentioning us you know uh years prior
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you know and I'm curious as a black man you recently turned 60 right I did okay give that man
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a round of appla to clap for that I'm clapping for that come on it beats the alternative yeah it beats the
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alternative so just your personal Reflections on on your life and career
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yeah what were they yeah um f first of all um I'll give this to you you can have this one for free okay whenever
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you're uncomfortable calling somebody old or talking about elderly I use this phrase chronologically gifted okay I
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like that I was okay chronologically chronologically gifted it just it sound doesn't roll so well
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but I'll try it sounds sweeter though chronologically gifted yeah you're chronologically gifted so doesn't feel
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so harsh to people I think when you call them old yeah um but I agree with you though that it it is amazing the things
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that we tap into the amazing the things that happen when you find yourself in a
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contestation a political cont testation where you deem one person an
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existential threat to this democracy and indeed he is make no mistake about that but the margins are so narrow you know
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when you see these polls and surveys and studies all the time they tell you that these are the numbers it's 47 to 45 but
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it's within the margin of error um we are not right now in the margin of error
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we are in what I call the margin of Terror and when you're in the margin of Terror uh and people see this threat to
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this democracy and I really call it an experiment in democracy we're not quite a democracy yet um we have a madonian
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framework for democracy we're not quite there yet and in fact we had time we could really get into the fact that I
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think America is more like an oligarchy or a plutocracy with elections that's a whole another thing we're not really a
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democracy because in a democracy for example in a in a true democracy the personate the most votes wins why do we
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keep doing this electoral college thing and not the popular vote KLA is going to crush Donald Trump I'm I'm certain in
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the popular vote but in a true democracy shouldn't the person with the most votes win the election why do we do this I I
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understand why the framers initially set up that electoral college but that thing is so outdated the point I'm making here
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is that in an election that is as close and as tight as this one is going to be when you're in the margin of error and
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the margin of Terror people start looking for who they can tap into to help them
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win it has never been about them and it ain't about them right now MH it's about
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these individuals who are trying to win this contest and anybody who you think
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uh those persons who have been on the margins that you think can help you get across the Finish Line then all of a
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sudden you come up with an agenda for them I've said this and I'll shut up
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I've been at this for a while now never sway in my professional career have I ever seen black men to your point talked
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about this much in a political season never but then again we've never been at
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this moment where the thing is so tight that you're going to need to steal somebody to help get you across the
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finish line so all of a sudden black men who I believe and I you know sisters have been treated you know horribly in
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this country but I have always said that black men are the most maligned group of folk in the history of this country and
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all of a sudden now you know we are the Crim Del Crim with the group that everybody wants to play to with the
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group that everybody wants to uh fashion an agenda around where have y y'all been looking out for the best interest of
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black men for all these other years for all these decades for all these centuries nobody cared but now all of a
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sudden you know we're the we're the flavor of the month because we can help somebody win I don't like it either
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there's a there there's there's there's a there's a there's a there's a bankruptcy in that as far as I'm
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concerned an ideological bankruptcy but I see what it is now having said that am I thrilled about the fact that black men
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are being considered in this race absolutely I love the fact we're being talked about my question is where you
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been all this time M and ultimately this what the book is about if and when you win whoever wins this thing what happens
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next will we be forgotten how do these black men who were talked about so much during the campaign get what they were
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promised and how do these black men hold the who whoever the president is how do you hold them accountable to what they
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said on the campaign Trail and that's the hard part the easy part is to talk about black men run commercials do what we're doing now the hard part is to hold
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the president accountable and that's where we always fall down my manavis
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Smiley Tavis do you think and I can only speak about the black men that are in my
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circle I don't have the same story I grew up with a mom and dad in a home I have brothers I have college the whole
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nine but I personally feel like black men in and for my generation Our
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Generation didn't start talking about voting until President Barack Obama and then we also have now this internet
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thing so maybe would you almost say then that's probably when black men started
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Ed to be considered in terms of campaign CU I don't think it was just this campaign we have a lot of artists who
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have called the show shout out to DJ premere shout out to everybody Co said the first time I voted was during Barack
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Obama's presidency so um do you think it started around then possibly as well
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well the it's a great question here the the data tell us that black men have always voted in the same way that black
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women have voted that's why I don't buy the argument in this race that Donald Trump's going to siphon off 20 35% of
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black men I don't see that I could be wrong I don't see it because black men again have historically always voted the
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same way black women have voted we're family right so um if black women vote for KLA Harris my sense is the numbers
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are going to point out that black men largely voted for Comm that's what we've always done but it'd be but it'd be it
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it'd be it'd be a mistake to think that black men just showed up in the Obama era no question about the fact when you
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have a black male running for president you're tapping into something so clearly clear a lot of black men are going to be
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awakened around the candidacy around a campaign that features at its epicenter an African-American male no question but
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let's not forget about the civil rights movement and even Beyond oh yeah you remember the signs these brothers are
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wearing in Memphis I am a man black men didn't just start standing up when Obama
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showed up that's giving Obama way too much credit and I ain't trying to hate on it brother no but black men were
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involved long before then you think about the civil rights movement and and and and frankly it was quite patriarchal
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and quite sexist at the March on Washington they didn't let women even speak black women all black men got to speak but think of all those the the big
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sixes they were called the black men who organized the March on Washington who were running these campaigns uh by
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Rustin megga ever I mean there were so our history is replete with black men who've always been politically engaged
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but I think you're right about the fact that Obama did awaken something a little different that generation that's the
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point for that generation okay cool but but we we we ain't just showing up
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and I I didn't think you were saying that I I didn't I didn't take it that way I'm just saying that I want to be clear that black men for as long as
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there's been a fight for the right to vote and the right for us to exercise that right to vote uh unfettered black
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men have been in the Forefront of that struggle we didn't just show up around Obama but he did tap into something I think for that particular generation no
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question about TR yeah when Heather thank you so much Tavis when Heather mentioned the internet it makes me think
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also the the quality of our current media landscape right and how that can
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help to shape the story lines that politicians choose For Better or For Worse and right now it seems like
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everyone has a microphone everyone has a camera we're seeing politicians I never thought that they would be doing certain
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podcasts etc etc um with this tremendous career that you have possessed and
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currently possessed can you speak about the core ingredients that go into a high
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quality interview wow that's an amazing question Trac um let me answer it in two
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ways one I tell my team of people at my station in La that if you want to be a
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great talk show host you want to be a great interviewer you want to be a great interlocutor um it's simple the better
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you listen the better you are as a host I preach this every day it's what I call
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generous listening charitable listening the more charitably the more generously you listen the better you are in this
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business and the problem is that most folk who have those microphones Tracy are not interested in listening it's
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about monologue for them not about a dialogue um and you when you when you pay attention in these conversations
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they they have it's like they have a blue card with 10 questions they going to ask and they ask the first question
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on the blue card and they go down the card it doesn't matter what the guest just said cuz you ain't really tapped in
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you're not really listening you just going get your 10 questions that your producer gave you out the way and you
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move on to the next guest right so it's about charitable and generous listening secondly if you think that you are
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leading the conversation you're doing it the wrong way the host is never leading the conversation you're always following
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you get that first question out and whatever your guest says if you're listening they're going to tell you
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where to go next WoW generous listing so the you're not really leading if you're doing it the right way you're following
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thirdly and finally to your question about um the media landscape r at large I'm I'm I'm I'm you know I don't want to
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say I'm despondent and depressed about it but the media in this country has let me down and particularly in this moment
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because all the media is ever interested in in a political campaign is the horse race they don't care about the issues they just care about the horse race
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right and about about the numbers we never ever get to really talking about the issues and most importantly for me
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um the media has shown me time and time again that they are really not interested in seeking the truth it's
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about playing whatever audience they're playing to but it's really not about a search for the truth right uh and so it
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it's our media is in trouble um and we could have a whole another conversation about the Washington Post not not
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endorsing this year in the LA Times not endorsing and I saw Jeff bezos's oped the other day about why the his post his
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newspaper The Washington Post is not endorsing what did he say in The Nut Show what he basically said was that a couple things one and just paraphrasing
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here that newspaper endorsements don't really mean anything M number two that
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newspapers have lost the trust of the readers and so they don't want to take sides uh and he went on from there my my
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thing is simply this and and I could quibble with him and debate him and argue his points about this but my
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question is why now why now why in this race exactly why in this
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race in this moment with a sister running for president and Trump as an
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existential threat to the democracy now y'all decide we ain't endorsing and the
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short answer is they're scared yeah cuz if Trump gets elected they have so many other business interests there's a
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billionaire that owns the post Jeff Bezos an Asian billionaire that owns the LA Times um and they have other BS
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business interest and they're afraid that Trump's going to do exactly what he say he's going to do if you you go against him you going to mess with your
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money so so so it's it there's a fear thing um they care about themselves
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their money not about the Democracy so we could debate this all day long I'll shut up but but my point is to answer your question Tracy our democracy is in
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trouble in part because our media is in trouble and in any uh history proves this out every
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every every democracy every Empire I should say every Empire in the history of the world at some point has its
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Reckoning every Empire eventually falters and fails and we don't even want
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to believe in America that that could happen to us but every Empire in the world has always fallen and the first
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casualty in that process is the truth m and so the media starts looking the
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other way when they aren't doing their job your country your Republic your democracy your Empire is in trouble I'll
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leave it there tab it smiley stop playing she what a t you know I'm from
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Oakland I love it now you from Oakland you was talking about the Dodges like all morning
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so by the way I I I am taking credit for that last night yeah okay how I flew in
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from La last night that's right in time for the game and and the
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Dodgers we here in New York so I'm taking credit for that yeah I'm yo yo um and um yeah I say that because I'm
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voting for the sister so and I'm not asking you who you voting for I don't even want to know but I I like to say
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that out loud with that being from Oakland that KLA Harris will has received my vote um and uh for reasons
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not just because she's from Oakland and she's a sister but they you know that
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helps the deal for me um but um just the policy and the maturity I've seen her
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evolve into as she stepped into this role and I've known her from before she was in this role and we done community
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service together and anytime I see a local politician in those streets people
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try to bring up that other stuff you know I saw her in the streets and I didn't see the people who CR criticize
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her in the streets you know so that's part of why she's receiving it U but
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this book came out 20 years ago I ask you about some of the chapters and what has changed in 20 years let's talk about
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uh Covenant three correcting the system of unequal Justice not much not much has
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changed on that Covenant there there were 10 covenants 20 years ago when this book comes out goes to number one of the New York Times best seller list sells
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millions of copies the first black book by a black publisher to ever reach number one on the times list yeah that
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was 20 years ago so this is uh 20 years later uh where are we on these 10 particular issues I should say very
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quickly those 10 issues that that sway is going through now we have a bonus issue in this book uh this is a sad
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reality 20 years ago he wrote this book the issue of homelessness was not nearly as acute for our people as it is now
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here's the point that in just two short decades black people black men in
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particular have become the face of homelessness in this country 20 years ago it wasn't even on the docket so we
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had to write a bonus Covenant so there are actually 11 covenants um not just 10 this time around because we had to write
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a covenant about how we address this issue of homelessness that black men in particular are now the face of but to
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your question about our system of unequal Justice not a whole lot has changed um we still see um police
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brutality um we still see um Brothers being sentenced longer and more harshly
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we still see Brothers being put to death more frequently so not a whole lot has changed in that regard this book is
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sobering in a lot of ways so there there are there is some progress in some areas but in that area of our system of
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unequal Justice not a whole lot sadly has moved in the last 20 20 years damn
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that is sad but but if you compare it to the last 30 years that's right it be the
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same result that's exactly right we we our we have some serious serious issues
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with our system of our system of Injustice as it were um and it's it's going to take a lot more
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than I think we're prepared to to to do to correct that system starting with having more of us inside of the system
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and this goes back to this election one of the reasons why people are concerned about you know who's going to win this is because if Donald Trump wins again he
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may get another one or two Supreme Court picks yeah uh Clarence Thomas is now what 76 Samuel Alo is now I think
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74 and they'd be wise if he won to step down let him appoint two younger
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conservatives and they serve for the rest of their lives right so our whole system is rotting from the top to the
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bottom and it's sad because for years when you looked at the data um you got
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the Executive Branch the legislative branch as we all learned in school and the judicial branch three branches of government the judicial branch for the
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longest time still was respected and regarded and revered more than the other branches nobody respected Congress
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nobody respected the Executive Branch the White House but people still had respect and regard for our Judicial
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System those numbers are now in the toilet and you look at all the decisions they made the last few years you
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understand why so there is no branch of our government we talked earlier about how much in trouble our democracy is how
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do you sustain a democracy when you've got a deos you got you got fellow
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citizens who don't trust any branch of their government that's that's that's where we are it's really sad so our
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system our justice system is rotting from the top to the bottom so I like how you gave context as why you believe that
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um how much does establishing a system of public education in which all
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children achieve at high levels and research their full potential um H how much is that a factor
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of where we are as a country because you talking about uh civil studies you're
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talking about government these things no longer exist uh like it did when we were coming up in public uh School
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curriculums how much is is why not our Civic I it's a powerful Point our Civic
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IQ um is wanting um our Civic IQ not nearly as high as it ought to be not near as high as it once was uh and so
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that that is an issue and you're right so many of these courses are just not being taught uh to kids schools these days um but broadly speaking in terms of
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what we cover in the Covenant about education that achievement Gap still exist the gap between black and white
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and our education system is still as wide as it ever was really has not
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shrunk and everybody thinks the answer to the problem as my big mama would say the answer to the prayer they think is
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privatizing schools and the data shows again that that is not working because the majority of kids in this country
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certainly black kids are now and will forever be in public classrooms not private classrooms not charter schools
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and I ain't hating on private and Charter Schools I'm just telling you I've learned over the years that the schools that do best in this country are
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the schools that parents are involved in when the parents are involved the schools do better no question about that
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but black kids are always going to be for the most part in public schools uh
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and so long as we don't find a way to fix public education in this country our kids are in trouble so this Gap this
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achievement gap between our kids and everybody else continues to persist again as I said the book in many ways is
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sobering but you write these books because you got to keep track yeah of of of of the struggle right um I believe
28:39
that if if nobody speaks the truth then the suffering of our people gets rendered invisible if you don't speak
28:45
the truth and that suffering just gets rendered invisible and so the reason why you write a book like this 20 years later is to track where you are are you
28:51
making progress are you gaining any ground so in some ways the book can be depressing as it were as I said so
28:58
but somebody's got to be tracking how we're doing and not doing so we know where we're headed I'm this will be my
29:04
final U Covenant 10 uh and I don't know if people well I don't know if we're aware enough of this
29:12
topic closing the the racial digital divide yeah why was this chapter
29:17
important to you to write and can you break it down yeah 20 years ago we we were wrestling with this question of how
29:22
fast they were going to wire our communities right Broadband remember that conversation uh and so 20 years
29:28
later we've made some progress in that regard um Everybody these days has a smartphone I'm looking around this
29:34
studio right now everybody got a phone in the hand yeah so that's just true of the world right everybody's got a smart device so we've made some progress in
29:41
that regard I think what Tyrone taborn who writes the essay in that chapter gets to ultimately is that in 20 years
29:48
we still have marginally improved only marginally improved in moving sway from
29:54
being consumers to being producers and that's the conversation every time there's you mentioned Bitcoin earlier I
30:00
I kind of chuckled when you said that that yeah because I was thinking because every time some new something comes
30:06
online there are a bunch of black people preaching we got to get in on this now we got to get in now we cannot be like
30:12
we've always been uh consumers and not producers and so the Bitcoin thing jumped off and everybody's like this is
30:19
this is an opportunity for Black Folk to get in right now right to control their own destiny it's a new uh it's a
30:25
revolution it's a revolutionary idea rather they said the same thing about the internet right same thing about
30:31
technology we got to get in now so we don't end up as roadkill I remember this great this great line what the line we
30:38
don't want to end up as roadkill on the information superhighway was a great phrase right um get in now well the
30:45
reality is that we've gotten in the game but at the level of consumer uh and while there are a lot more black people
30:50
than there were 20 years ago who are owning and and producing and designing and creating we are still um you know
30:59
more in the consumer category than the producer category and Tyron also writes
31:04
about the fear that we ought to have of AI yes there are a lot of things it will do that will make our lives easier but
31:11
there's a fear that black folk ought to have uh when it comes to AI he talks about that in that uh Covenant as well I
31:18
love this the Covenant with black America 20 years
31:24
later this is the name of the book compiled and Ed edited by Tavis Smiley
31:30
our good brother right here smiley audio media where can they listen to you so um
31:36
all of our socials for our station in La um is kbl 1580 kbl 1580 is our station
31:43
in La all of our socials can be found there and of course uh for me Tavis anything and everything Tavis any say
31:50
hello to my sister from moris media I will tell the poet you saw her she had a big had a big celebration a couple weeks
31:56
ago yes yes we we got a in the in the magazine I I'll put one in there too celebrating her 10 years Felicia I mean
32:02
I'm glad you said that because black media is more relevant and more necessary now than ever before yes
32:08
there's some questions that don't get asked if we don't ask them some issues that don't get raised if we don't raise them black folk doing great work it
32:14
don't get profiled if we don't profile them so black media is more relevant and necessary now than ever before it's why
32:19
I did my move with our station in La and I celebrate Felicia uh Felicia and her her 10th anniversary so domini Dom the
32:27
Prima trying to do our thing man we all trying to do our thing what you brother then thank you bro for coming by man
32:32
love you

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