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Therapists are People too
Oct 2, 2025
Welcome to Adaptable | Behavior Explained! In this episode, Therapists are People Too, I sit down with Justine Bond to talk about the human side of therapy because behind every professional is a person with their own experiences, growth, and story. I'm Kelly O'Horo, Attachment based EMDR Therapist, EMDRIA Consultant, and Advanced Trainer. I'm a mom of 5, Nonna of 5, wife, and a healer. I have the honor of spending my workdays walking along side people while they brave their healing journeys. I try to live with the generous assumption that we're all doing the best we can with what we know. Therapists are teachers for the "life stuff" and "emotional vocabulary" that may not have been learned due to gaps in our care givers capabilities. In the last 15 years I've learned that people are freaking amazing, resilient, and inspiring. Most importantly, we are hardwired for connection and for healing! I hope to bring an authentic, compassionate, and unpolished approach while we explore a variety of topics such as parenting, marriage, relationships, dating, trauma, attachment, adoption, depression, addiction, anxiety, and love! There's a why for all behaviors and an explanation that makes perfect sense as emotion is at the root of it all. -- Links -- https://linktr.ee/kellyohorolpc https://youtu.be/rLnARKekvgo https://www.emdria.org/find-an-emdr-therapist/
View Video Transcript
0:06
Hi everyone, I'm Kelly O'Horo and this is Adaptable Behavior Explained. Hi
0:12
everybody. Thank you so much for tuning in today. I'm Kelly O'Horo and I'm your host on Adaptable Behavior Explained.
0:19
And today's episode is going to take a little bit of a twist because as those of you who know and watch the show, I am
0:26
a trauma therapist and EMDR specialist and have been for nearing 15 years now.
0:32
And I think that a lot of times people don't recognize that therapists are just
0:38
people too. And we come with our own histories, our own lenses, our own human
0:44
experience. And I'm especially excited today to have with me my guest Justine
0:49
Bond who I have been mentoring, I supervised, who is now my colleague uh
0:56
for about six years now. And so um she actually approached me with a desire to
1:02
do a show about this. And hopefully for those of you who are deciding you want to join begin therapy, this might help
1:09
you recognize the experience of of your therapist and so that you can start the
1:15
experience of going to therapy with just more information. For those of you who are therapists or becoming therapists,
1:22
this is a show you probably should not miss because be careful what you wish for. You just might get it. And
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oftentimes when we become therapists, we don't recognize how much of our own unfinished business we have to address.
1:34
So Justine, thank you so much for joining us today. Please uh introduce yourself. Tell us a little bit about
1:40
yourself. Yeah, so my name is Justine Bon. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist. I've been in the field for almost 10
1:47
years now, but I've been a licensed therapist for the past five years. I work with couples. I work with
1:53
individuals, children, families, pretty much the lifespan. And I'm also a certified EMDR therapist. So I really
2:01
conceptualize from an attachment lens. It's really important as we talk about the journey to becoming a therapist
2:06
today because you really have to look within yourself when you think about attachment and how that shows up with our clients.
2:12
Right. And when I met you, when you introduced yourself to me, I was I knew that you were just this diamond in the
2:18
rough because you came in with so much energy and assertion and confidence and
2:24
your was super tight. But what I made up was there was some air of perfectionism. And perfectionism is
2:31
this, it's armor. It's armor that we employ in ourselves so that we can
2:36
appear just so. Yeah. And so when I see people like that, I get excited because I recognize
2:43
I can be part of the conduit in helping someone disarm and help them become
2:48
their most truest original selves through the process of supervision and mentorship and encouragement of
2:56
recognizing the things you need to address in your own work as it comes up. And so it's been a sweet little pairing
3:02
and it's been super fun to mentor you and and watch you evolve. And so what
3:08
motivated you to want to become a therapist? Because I think people want to know, you know, why do people go that
3:13
direction and it starts to lay the groundwork for what we initially want and then what ends up happening. So tell
3:20
us. Yeah. Yeah. I think I always wanted to go into this field because I saw an
3:26
importance of truly wanting to help others and be there for others, you know, and you were spot on about having
3:34
this perfectionist tendency because when I applied to work at Infinite, I was like, "Oh, I've got it all figured out.
3:39
I've finished grad school. It's all good to go now." And I didn't know anything. And I think that was really an important
3:45
part of my journey in becoming a therapist and who I am today, too. because I thought it was just about helping people, but it really is about
3:52
truly digging deep and learning how you can help and grow within yourself, too, you know. Yeah. People think that you're signing
3:58
up to be a therapist to help others. And and that's of course what I wanted. I'll never forget my first graduate class
4:04
when they talked about, you know, what do you think it is to be a therapist? And and I thought, you know, you guide
4:09
people, you help them figure out, you know, their path. And then when they said, oh, and it's not about giving any
4:14
advice, I was like, oh crap, what am I what am I doing here? I I had all this great advice to give. I have all this
4:20
great life experience and I've done so much in the way of growing in my own journey that I think that then makes me
4:27
more equipped to help others. And what people don't realize is that when you decide you're going to be a therapist, you're not just,
4:33
you know, engaging in something where you're going to meet others and help others in their journeys, but you're
4:38
really going to meet yourself. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. And that experience of meeting yourself
4:44
can be challenging. Very challenging. Yeah. So tell us what that was like for you when you first started to recognize
4:50
how much unfinished business you had to attend to. I think for me one of my first indicators was I mean and clients often
4:57
come into therapy thinking you're going to fix all my problems and you're going to help me and guide me and all the things. And I thought yeah that's what
5:04
I'm going to do. And then you realize oh I can't fix this especially if you work with complex trauma because there's so
5:10
many layers so many aspects of what people come in with. And that was hard for me cuz I had to learn within myself,
5:17
what is it about this client that's in front of me that's making me feel super anxious in this session because I so
5:22
badly just want to help them and fix what's going on and take all their pain away. And that's not what we're here
5:28
for. It's about the journey of really being with a client in their pain. And I always give the metaphor of walking down
5:34
a path together. and we don't know what's alongside the path, you know, and sometimes we have to stop
5:39
and look and take some time really exploring that set of flowers, that bush, that bramble breed, whatever that
5:45
is to really understand like where a client is coming from and the journey I'm on with them, right? And who knows how long that'll take. And
5:51
that was my other thing, too. It's like, oh, we should be done by now. Why is this taking so long? What's happening here? What am I doing wrong?
5:57
Right. Am I doing wrong? And that leads me to, you know, I think as a a supervisor and mentor and having helped
6:04
dozens of therapists become, you know, more of their best selves through the through the process of being a new
6:09
therapist and then, you know, maturing in that craft. That's what comes up the most for people is what am I doing wrong?
6:16
Yeah. what am I doing wrong when the client is still drinking or the client isn't following through with the coping
6:22
things we talked about or the client is still whatever that is and they come back in
6:27
with their same you know song and dance about whatever it is they're struggling with and then we start to personalize
6:34
that experience they're not getting it fast enough what am I doing wrong for sure and so when you were able to make that
6:41
shift more consistently talk about that a little bit for yourself. I think it was so much about first
6:49
having compassion for myself, you know, because I think if you have perfectionist tendencies and again you
6:54
come into this field because you really want to help people and do all the things and get it so right, you're really hard on yourself in that process.
7:00
And so for me, I had to shift. It's okay. Slow down, right? You know, and I had to remind
7:06
myself like I am a human in this room with another human being, which is by all theories the most
7:12
powerful conduit for healing is our human presence and human connection.
7:17
Offering in a momentto- moment experience for someone what wasn't there
7:22
at the time that hard things happened. Yeah. And you know, I can remember thinking, oh, theory and techniques and
7:28
and you know, our our high achiever, you know, hustle for your worth type of therapists that are armed with
7:34
perfectionism, they show up with, you know, such a robust tool basket, but
7:39
then they are disheartened when all my tools and all my trainings and all my additional advanced
7:45
certifications aren't making them better faster. And I think that can be frustrating
7:50
because they're still under the illusion Yeah. that it's what they know that's
7:56
going to help somebody heal faster. Yeah. And the truth is it's who we are in
8:01
those moments that helps someone heal faster. Yeah. And so that's the part that I think is
8:07
so interesting. So do you have a certain kind of client or a certain thing that happens in a session for you where
8:13
you're like I get activated when I when we say activated we're talking about you
8:19
know let me back up. We're we're not just learning theories and
8:24
learning how to be a counselor, but we're really becoming intimately in connection with our own nervous system.
8:30
What triggers us? What activates us? What of our own unfinished history gets
8:36
remembered when we are listening through the lens of somebody else? And then where is our own pain points
8:43
still too raw, right? Where we then feel it. Yeah. In connection with the person. And and
8:48
that resonance is what it's called that activates in us our unfinished
8:53
business. So we all have certain kinds of clients that will bring our own business up and we feel it when we're in
9:01
session with people and we have a jour a path where we can make a turn. We can say this is
9:09
triggering me and this and make it about the client or we can go how can I use this to help the client. So tell us if you
9:16
have specific kinds of clients that you run into this with where you're like these ones challenge me and then do you
9:22
know why and let's talk about that. I it's so interesting because I think we often attract the clients that we still
9:29
need to do work on in ourselves, right? It's like how the heck did they all end up in my office? But it's so beautiful
9:34
because that's what also helps me grow professionally as a therapist, but also like personally,
9:40
you know, and again, that's the part that makes me the best therapist is like how I can take that personal growth into
9:46
the room with my clients. And I think the ones that get me the most are the ones that often overfunction,
9:52
you know, are caretakers to the nth degree and who really want to make sure
9:57
they get it so right, you know, and and that's what you do. Yeah, that's exactly what I do. And I
10:03
still do that till this day, you know, and I think that's where my own individual therapy is so important and
10:08
comes in. And every really good therapist should have their own individual therapist to address these things. Yeah. when we screen for for a
10:15
therapist, when clients will ask me, you know, can you help me find someone? And I give them a list of questions. And
10:21
and I've had some debate with other therapists about whether or not it's appropriate to say, are you in therapy as the therapist? And
10:29
I've had people tell me that therapists have said, "That's not appropriate for me to share my personal business with you." And I'm like,
10:35
"Hang up and call someone else. Run." if they're not comfortable enough to say, "Hey,
10:42
I think it's a professional responsibility that we maintain our own therapeutic relationship with our own therapist so that when we have our stuff
10:49
come up, we go address it like now. Otherwise, it's in the way and it's not fair to the client."
10:54
No. No. And I think it's a twofold, right? Because when you notice that within yourself, it's important data to
11:01
recognize this is probably what the client feels in the outside world, I call, or outside of the room, right? And how else would I be able to
11:07
go there with them and address that if I didn't feel that within myself too, right? And vice versa, right? They feel
11:12
things with us as well. That gets projected. I feel like they're critical. We have names for that. So, so for those
11:18
of you who are therapists, this might be interesting to you because what we're talking about here is transference and
11:23
counter transference. And so transference is basically that energetic resonance that we feel and we project
11:31
our old relational, you know, dynamics onto each other. and they our clients
11:37
project that on to us rather and so we can use that when they over identify us
11:43
as like a parent or perhaps like a a significant other. You know, a lot of people get a little jumpy if like for
11:50
example if I see a man at the beginning I will say it's not uncommon for a man
11:56
to start to have feelings for their therapist as a female when we start to get into the unfinished attachment
12:03
stuff. And it's not because you're actually attracted to me. It's because I
12:08
am making you feel unconditionally cared for and safe, which may be a missing
12:13
piece from a current relationship, or it may be unfinished business from like a
12:19
historical relationship with a mother or a father. And so there's a projected transference of their need onto us as
12:26
the therapist. And so that ends up being something we can use. And I say use if you don't get
12:32
jumpy as the therapist and you go, "Hey, I'm sensing something's happening here.
12:37
Talk to me about what's coming up." And we can lean into that. We can actually use it to help our clients
12:44
address and lean into that discomfort. Yeah. And I think therapists don't take
12:49
the chance to lean into it and instead take it personal or get scared or spooked if they're not doing that work
12:55
to recognize what just happened in me in that moment when the client said something. It's being plugged into yourself and being aware.
13:01
Yeah. Yeah. And it's so helpful. Like I think that is the biggest pivotal moment in my journey as a
13:06
therapist when I really could harness that and not take things personal or feel offended, you know, or get scared
13:13
by a client. Instead, just use it as data, right? You know, like I'm feeling a certain kind of way. I think we do it more even I mean in EFT
13:20
training, which is emotion focused couples therapy and there's emotion focused individual therapy. She teaches us to use it. Yeah. So can you give us
13:28
an example of when you would use that transference when you see it and and help for example in an individual or in
13:34
a couple situation? Yeah, for couples it's often, you know, when one of the partners is
13:40
feeling a certain way and they're just kind of at each other in the session and I'm watching the cycle, which is essentially the conflict or the dance
13:47
they kind of get stuck into. I might just name that for them really explicitly. You know, if someone if the
13:53
spouse says something pretty offensive to the other spouse, I might just call it out like, "Wow, I often say as your third party, as your
14:00
outsider, that was a lot, that word. There's a lot of weight with that. Can we slow down
14:07
and just check in with how each other feels as that was said, right?" Well, and you can even take it another step further and say, "I feel so
14:14
offended." Yeah. and I'm wondering if your partner feels offended or I'm wondering if your boss feels offended when you talk to
14:21
them like the way you're talking to me right now because it's I'm feeling that. So that's, you know, a way if we are if
14:27
we're conscious and we're aware of it, we can lean into that energy and use it to help the
14:33
client become more aware of themselves and how they impact the people around them. Yeah. Because what we say is if they're doing
14:39
it in the room, they're doing it outside of the room. And this is where we take that moment to moment awareness and go
14:45
what's happening here happens there. And so we have to be awake about it. It's not about what do we do. It's how
14:51
do we attune to Yeah. Exactly. that that information. And sometimes it can be conflict. Sometimes it can be
14:58
healthy. Sometimes it can be an opportunity to show, you know, extraordinary compassion where perhaps
15:03
somebody didn't when they should have. Yeah. And then there's that repairative moment. And I I tell my clients, it's we're offering or my my therapists that
15:10
I work with, it's we're offering now what wasn't there then and creating this repairerative restorative
15:16
Yeah. memory now. Yeah. So that we have additional data. Yeah. Like some people can be compassionate
15:22
and caring and loving with me even if my history has shown me otherwise. Absolutely. I think that's so important
15:28
too because anyone that comes to me and is like Justine, I'm really stuck on this case. What do I do? And the things
15:34
I'm listening for is often, can you just use yourself in those moments? If a client is really shut down, if a
15:40
client's really up here instead of thinking, what do I have to pull out next from my toolbox and how do I get them back here or down there all
15:46
what do I need to do? Yes. It's really who do I need to be? Yes. How do you just be there for them in that moment? And what would you do
15:52
again as a human to human in that space and just use yourself and trust that? And I think trusting yourself
15:59
is the scariest part for a new therapist because you have a bit of imposttor syndrome. Who am I that they're going to trust,
16:05
right? Well, I don't know what to do. I'm this age. I'm that experienced. Whatever it is, I haven't been through that.
16:10
Doesn't matter. You know, and if we can get a sliver of trust, I'll even I'll even check in with a client, say, "Listen, I haven't earned
16:16
your trust yet. I don't expect to have that those papers on the wall. That's not why you should trust me,
16:22
right? how you should learn to trust me or what I hope to eventually earn from you is your trust in time
16:29
that your nervous system can see and feel that perhaps I could be someone who
16:34
could be there for you, right? And that that may take us some time and and things that I say may challenge
16:40
that, right? You might think you're starting to trust me and it might get too close and then you might get jumpy because you're
16:46
afraid to trust me. And that is part of what comes up. And so I think it's the therapist knowing
16:52
that it happens. The client being made aware that it that it may happen and not
16:57
to run to encourage the client not to run, but also the therapist not to run from the uncomfortable feelings that
17:03
happens from that transference relationship. But we also have counter transference. So talk to us about how
17:09
you understand counter transference. Yeah. So counter transference is often when we feel something that our client
17:15
is either doing or saying, but it triggers us, you know, and that's our unfinished business.
17:20
And that's the data too to listen to because it's like, oh, I need to check this out with my own individual therapist, my consultant, my supervisor,
17:27
whatever it may be, because that can't get in the way of the therapeutic work and the space that
17:33
you're trying to provide in it. It's really unfair and it happens to all of us. I mean, this is not a if it happens. It's when
17:40
it happens. Yeah. What do we do with it? When it happens. Yeah. I don't know. When I started, I said I was perfect, so I didn't have
17:46
that. But, but humor is also a defense mechanism. But seriously, I thought like when they
17:52
would talk about that in grad school and I'm like, "Oh, that probably doesn't happen that much." And you just have to be like really good and tight and it's
17:57
fine. And no, no, no. It happens. Yeah. Especially if you decide to be a Toronto. Especially when you're newer. When
18:03
you're newer, it's like every day is some kind of new evolution of awareness of yourself and
18:09
that you think your stuff is more tall like tight and you've got it more handled and
18:14
but I will say and this is for like our clients and I really want them to hear this message too that only comes up
18:20
truly because like we care. Totally. Like if we didn't care I wouldn't have
18:26
an emotional experience about it. Totally. Yeah. And like that's those are the sessions and I know this isn't healthy
18:31
and this is why I like work on this but I'll think about them after session cuz I'm like oh my gosh what should I have done different and I really wanted to
18:37
make sure I could help them and that's also data for me because it's like stop right
18:42
you can only do what you can do in that moment and then they can take their experience and their growth and they can
18:48
apply it or not. Yeah. Exactly. And and I'm still learning too and I always tell clients
18:53
that up at the beginning. I think you taught me this actually. Like look I'm human too. I'm going to make mistakes here and there. Please name it for me so
19:00
I can offer a beautiful repairative experience that may you may have never like let me own it. Maybe other people
19:06
don't own it and maybe you don't know how to go to somebody with your voice and say hey that sucked when you said that. And even coming back from those sessions
19:13
and saying wow let's check in with how the last session went. And again that takes a lot of courage because someone
19:19
who's a perfectionist or always wants to get it right. There's a little bit of shame there if you feel like I didn't handle that.
19:24
I screwed that up. and we just pretend like we did okay and we're over it. That empathic failure happens in all
19:30
therapeutic experiences and relationships. And the ultimate opportunity for repair is the circle
19:36
back. Hey, you know, I got defensive or I got jumpy or I, you know, I maybe offered too much
19:42
too fast and that was poor judgment on my part and I hope you can forgive me for that. And those are the clients that I
19:48
honestly have probably the strongest therapeutic relationship after that because so much can change even
19:54
comfortable. repair is the is the money. I mean, that's where there's like a true relational repair
20:01
practice that they can then borrow from us until they go out into the real world and do it with others.
20:07
And so, they get to use us if we are responsible therapists and we show up the way we're supposed to when we blow
20:13
it, they get to practice with us on how to manage those conflicts. Absolutely. And
20:18
so I think that a lot of times therapists think, "Oh, well, I I came in too hot or I did this or I did that and
20:24
and they're probably going to fire me." And I'm just like encouraging them to go, "Hey, what did you do next?"
20:31
Yeah. Did you say, "You know, that was a lot." Yeah. I know that I've had several uh several
20:36
times where I've noticed the counter transference. And I I can tell you it's been it's been related to either
20:42
unfinished business with like my parent style, my parent choice or my parent story rather like my parenting story of
20:49
my my own parents and then the ones that get me now are really related to my kids,
20:55
you know, like when kids or young adults are struggling with something, it brings up, you know, areas where I wish I would
21:02
have done something different with my own kids or areas where I feel helpless about where they are currently in their
21:08
own growth and really wanting to overfunction to help this young man in front of me with whatever they're
21:13
struggling with because, you know, I don't have the position to do that with my kids at this point. They're all grown and they that's their journeys to work
21:20
towards. So, it's interesting how that shows up for me. You know, I call it my litmus test where my unfinished business is
21:26
still challenging me and that's and my kids tend to be my kryptonite really. I
21:32
mean, that's where I'm like that was a that was a kid unfinished business thing. Yeah. Do you have any kind of thing that
21:39
that happens with you the most? You know, I think I mean you mentioned before like the overfunctioning
21:44
perfectionist type of client. It's it brings up how you are, but is there any
21:50
specific kind of story data that brings up unfinished things for you? You know, I think growing up as an only child and
21:58
a child of divorce, too, you know, there's a lot that happens as you're trying to navigate the world between
22:03
both parents and a lot of the experiences that they're kind of going through and their own trauma stories and
22:09
healing. It can be really hard to be in the middle of that. Like parents are people, too. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. You know,
22:15
and I didn't quite see it as that at the time. I just saw it as like let's get my together and let's keep going and
22:20
what's next and I got the good grades and I was on the varsity cheer stuff and like the dance team and all the things
22:26
and I didn't realize that was a mask behind like I was pretty alone and I
22:32
wasn't able to share a lot about how I was feeling whether it was stuff that was coming up with my mom and her house
22:37
or stuff that was coming up with my dad in his house and everything in between. And I think it socially reinforced
22:43
itself too that everything looked really good. So no one really asked how I was really doing. Well, and you always paint the bright
22:49
smile when you're suffering. And that is a great adaptation. You know, if I'm
22:54
smiling and I am going along and getting along, then I'm pleasing. Yeah. Exactly. And I'm not part of the problem if I'm
23:00
pleasing. And I think again as an only child, you want to you're the only one that can help your parents if they are really struggling through something too. And so
23:08
I was overfunctioning in that way in a pretty parentified role very early on. And I think that plays into what why I
23:14
became a therapist, you know, because I wanted to help others and I wanted to be that person and that figure for them.
23:20
And that was hard. I had to unlearn a lot of things in order to be a really successful healthy therapist, right?
23:26
You know, let's talk about we we alluded to it a little bit at the beginning like this the concept of self is the
23:31
therapist. And I know this is an area for which you have a lot of passion. I know you're you're definitely trying to
23:36
mentor our less experienced staff at times on this concept. So, what does it
23:41
mean when you say use yourself as the therapist and why that's so important? I think it's first recognizing, you
23:49
know, what does this client bring up in me if they're a challenging client? Because the challenging clients are those cases are honestly the ones where
23:55
you have to use yourself the most, right? You know, and if you can really embody an empathic, nurturing, secure
24:02
approach, clients will meet you there. You know, it may not happen in the first couple sessions. And I think that's what
24:08
stumps people. They're paying me and they're coming here to get help, but they're being so difficult with me. It's like, well, let's think about their story.
24:15
We used to use the word resistance. And I I encourage people not to use that word with us. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, you really have to
24:20
think about where this person came from and think of your own story and where you came from. Is it really similar to
24:26
that or is it really oppositional from that? And that might be what's in your way, right? But that aside, I try to get them to
24:33
think about who is this person on a bigger picture, not just how they're presenting, right? You know, and by using that, I think it
24:38
softens a lot of therapists because they can understand, oh, that that makes me sad. Sure. You know, and if we can't meet a client with
24:44
unconditional positive regard and compassion, we we're we have work to do. Yeah. you know because whatever they are
24:51
doing even if it's difficult or challenging us it is they're here for a reason
24:57
you know they're coming to address their stuff and we need not to meet them with judgment and so I think you know to just expand
25:04
upon that a little to me it's like really behaving with such intention knowing your attachment
25:11
style knowing what's going to get activated in you as the therapist recognizing you need to know the attachment style of your client and you
25:17
need to know that in a in a hurry Yeah, because that's the that's the data that says here's how
25:22
I need to show up for them and here's what's going to get triggered if I don't in me and in them. And being really intentional and
25:29
responsible about that when therapists are staffing cases and they're and they're activated,
25:35
99% of it doesn't go back to what you did wrong technically, right?
25:40
It's right what happened in you when. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. For sure.
25:45
Exactly. And I think those are the questions we ask as supervisors or as mentors, you know, like first,
25:51
what are you feeling about this client in this moment? What's happening in you and then we'll get to the technical stuff because if that isn't addressed
25:57
first? Yeah. Not going to get very Yeah. I can give you an example. I can remember a time when I I was newer. I
26:02
was probably only a therapist for about a year at the time. And I had a a client who she um she was in a faith that was
26:11
um not permissive of being a a gay or a lesbian. And she didn't want to be a
26:18
lesbian. She knew, you know, really a long time that she was since she was a child. And she went to her church
26:24
leaders and she was like, you know, I I need help. I don't want this to be my truth. and um and they really shamed her
26:31
and they told her she needed to take a break from coming to church and that she wasn't allowed to pray with the with the
26:36
rest of the congregation. And I was so furious. I mean, I was I could not help
26:42
her in that moment. I was so mad and I felt so protective and I was I was so angry and I and I noticed it and I didn't even
26:48
know what to do with it because I was ready to just like fbomb these people. Like, how dare you do this to somebody who's coming to
26:54
you with vulnerability, who's coming to you with um with their pain points, and you're going to shame them into like
27:00
exile. How is that connection? How is that belonging? I mean, you can hear it in my voice now. Like, I'm just like so vehemently against that kind of approach
27:07
with an abuse of power or whatnot. And I and I remember looking at her and I said, "Can I just take a minute?
27:14
I need to step outside." I mean, it was that bad. I was furious. And I was like I was just huffing and puffing in the
27:19
hallway for a few minutes and I got some deep breaths and I came back in the room and I just said, "I am so sorry that
27:26
that happened to you and I'm and I want to let you know that I had to step out because I was so angry it wasn't going
27:31
to help you. I was so angry that I that I just heard that happen to you and that you went through that." And so
27:39
I used my counter transference related to like an abuse of power to meet her with so much more acceptance
27:46
and understanding and validation about her experience that I think it was a really trust building moment for us.
27:53
Like she knew I saw her and I showed up like a protective parent ought to have had they known that happened.
27:59
So true. And said not okay, not on my watch. And I said, "And although that's not my job in that moment,
28:05
we as therapists have to be a good enough parent to model what needed to happen until they don't need it anymore." And then we can graduate them
28:11
and say, "You got this. You don't need somebody to to be there on your behalf in that same way because you can do it for you now."
28:18
But if they never knew what it looked like or what it should have looked like. Yeah. I think we owe it to our clients to do
28:23
that. Yeah. For sure. And so when we can bring that uh caretaking protective energy
28:29
when when needed using our counter transference responsibly, I think it can be really powerful.
28:34
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I know. This is probably why I never liked in grad school when they teach you also you need to have a blank slate as a
28:40
therapist. Oh, that's funny. Pick no one for this role. Pick no one
28:46
to be a therapist if you need a blank slate. I actually think clients or rather therapists who have had more
28:53
tumultuous stories. Yeah. And have done more of their work are actually
28:58
better because they can relate to more varied experiences from this relational
29:05
way. Yeah. And more easily, right? You know, not to say that you need to be a horse to be an
29:12
equin, you know, veterinarian, but and and a lot of times people will call and screen for that. They're like, I
29:17
need to see someone who's had this many kids or had a spouse who was in the military or whatever else. And it's like, that's not true.
29:23
Yeah. Although a person might think that's going to be more relatable for them, but I and it's definitely not necessary
29:30
because all we have to do is pull from within oursel the same emotion. Yeah. That the person is experiencing and then
29:35
we can match it. So even though maybe I haven't had like, you know, like a parent die, you know, I've had loss,
29:41
I've had grief, I've had things pass, I've lost relationships that that were very dear to me. And so I can pull from
29:47
that loss and relate with a client with that. That's really what we need to have. But
29:53
but my my thought was really related to we have to know ourselves and what we are going to bump up
30:00
against. Yeah. Yeah. And I for sure I think the most important message for clients too is you guys really teach us
30:08
so much about ourselves in this journey. You help us become better therapists. I even had a client who told me that when
30:13
I first started with her like early in my career and she stayed with me for about four years and she's like I just
30:19
want to let you know I've truly seen you grown so much in this process and I've stuck with you because I knew I saw like
30:25
the change happening you know and it's been a beautiful so helpful transformation and I feel the same way with my clients.
30:30
Sure. We learn so much from our clients about not just technique and modality but we also learn so much about ourselves and
30:38
the human experience and I think we're so we're so freaking lucky. I I tell people I have the best job in the world because
30:44
I get to walk along these heroes who have faced things in their lives that are unimaginable and they they
30:50
persevere. They resilience. Yes. The the human resilience is so it's just so amazing and inspiring. But
30:58
as therapists, you know, we we hold tremendous responsibility to not make their stuff ever about us. And so,
31:04
you know, I've talked about it on other episodes, but our primary responsibility is what? And doing our own work, right?
31:10
doing our own work and meaning we continue supervision, we continue consultation if we no longer need
31:17
supervision. Yeah. We get other eyes on our cases so that we're not, you know, working in a
31:22
vacuum. Yeah, absolutely. Flying blind. For sure. Yeah. What other nuggets do we need to
31:27
impart on our viewers? Both, you know, any potential clients uh that are looking to explore therapy for
31:34
themselves um or or therapists who haven't really heard this topic this
31:40
way. Yeah, I'm trying to think. I feel like we covered a lot of really really great points and I really wanted to kind of
31:47
say the message at the end of like we really do grow with our clients too, you know, but I think it's a feeling when you walk into the
31:54
room and you have this felt sense of safety with the person in front of you,
31:59
you know, as a client looking for a therapist. I think that's really important and that's something that a therapist I feel like can really embody
32:05
and harness if they're doing their own work and they're able just to be present with whatever the client is bringing up for them,
32:11
you know. And I would say for therapists, I think it's really important to continue doing your own work, as we've said so many times, but
32:17
also trusting the process, right? And if it feels like you're not getting it right, it's okay. I don't even know,
32:23
like I'm thinking the most seasoned therapists that I work with, they have not arrived. You never do.
32:29
There's no such thing. There's no such thing. And but I think people have that expectation. Like I should be this this good at my career by
32:35
now. I've been doing this long enough. We're in a field and in a job where things are always changing. You never
32:40
know what's going to walk into your office, which is partially probably why we picked a lot of this. I know I did. I didn't want a 9 to5.
32:47
Every person's different. Every story is different. And their experience of their story is different than anyone you've seen before. And so
32:53
I feel like that's something too no other job can give you. And that's what makes this so cool.
32:58
It's special, you know. It really is. And the person you will become, you know, throughout this journey is so
33:03
important. Um, you know, so it's really hanging in there, too. It challenges us. It challenges us
33:09
though. You can't hide from it. And when we get triggered by a client, you know, I I come in pretty hot with our staff
33:15
about you need to clean up your business. They are not paying you to have your unfinished business in their room. You
33:22
need to handle it and address that. So, um I think it's uh it's an ongoing
33:27
exploration of self and we're lucky to get to do it. Yeah. And I am I feel very pleased with my
33:35
career choice for sure. Yeah. Um, we're not dead, so we're not done. You know, we've got more work to do. And
33:41
I tell clients the same thing. I'm like, I don't know. I'll be here forever. And if you need, you know, to come back for a tuneup when you're done,
33:47
we'll we'll address it when it's time. Thank you so much for one encouraging me
33:52
for for being brave enough to come to me with this topic and and also for your um
33:59
you you got me a little choked up before we started today because you said I really wanted to do this show because
34:04
you know of our time together and I thought that was really special and just to get to experience watching you grow
34:12
over the last six years has been so fun and uh watching you now mentor and take people under your ring wing is It's
34:18
really what it's all about, paying it forward and continuing to help others learn. So, thank you so much for
34:23
for this time today. Thanks for having me. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for tuning in. If you are someone who wants
34:31
therapy, we can throw some resources in our description below. Mdria.org is a
34:36
great place to look for an EMDR therapist in your area. And I have another episode on how to find a
34:42
therapist, so you can check that out. Um, we'll make sure we get those that link uh in the show notes. And you know,
34:48
therapists are human, too. We We have lots of growth we need to make. Please call out your therapist. If you're
34:55
noticing something, come up with them. I think that it gives them an opportunity to take accountability for it. And don't
35:01
run away because they've activated you or, you know, they were activated. You know, circle back and address it with
35:06
them. Uh it's really one of the most important parts of the therapeutic experience. It's challenging business
35:13
being in therapy and being a therapist. And if you're willing to brave that uh with a therapist, there's so much to be
35:20
gained from that experience. So, I encourage you to take the plunge. If you're a newer therapist or or even a
35:26
therapist who's been doing this for a while and this resonated for you, please share it with a colleague. I think we
35:31
need to make sure that we validate the human experience and really help to
35:36
unshame us as therapists that we are not perfect. We're going to make mistakes. We we need to have some grace for
35:42
ourselves and for one another. um in for addressing these things. So, thank you so much for tuning in. If you like this
35:49
topic, please uh subscribe or share it with somebody that can val or that you
35:54
think could get some value out of it. And until we meet again, don't forget to lead with love. It'll never steer you
36:00
wrong. [Music]