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England will face Argentina in the 2026 World Cup semi-finals after Lionel Messi's team defeated Switzerland. This comes as a meticulous Thomas Tuchel warned the Three Lions would need to "play better" to win the tournament. Andrew Marr is joined by comedian David Baddiel and Latin American expert Professor Matthew Brown to discuss the complex history between the two teams. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #andrewmarr #england #argentina #worldcup #threelions #fifa #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
Even I can see that Wednesday's game between England and Argentina is something special
0:05
and I'm not talking about Kane or Messi or any of that, rather about the fact that they seem to hate us so much
0:12
Let's hear now from the comedian and presenter of 60 Years of Hurt, David Baddiel
0:17
who first helped me look back on our quarterfinal match against Argentina
0:21
in the year when we won the whole thing, 1966. Yeah, well, I was only two, but I have done a podcast about 60 years of hurt
0:32
And it would include physically, I guess, the hurt that the Argentinians inflicted on us in the battle that became the 1966 quarterfinal England versus Argentina
0:45
And only two days ago, I believe, Antonio Rattin, who played in that game, I think he was the captain
0:50
He died. And he was sent off, quite unusual at that point in time for someone to be sent off in a quarterfinal of a World Cup
0:59
And the most extreme thing that happened, I guess, and one reason why the Argentinians hate us, there are quite a few
1:06
is that Sir Alf Ramsey described the Argentinians as animals after the game, animales, they called it
1:13
And they didn't take that well. And there's a picture of him stopping, I think, the England team shaking hands with the Argentins after the game
1:20
Yeah, that's correct. And actually, Alf was an enormous proponent himself for sportsmanship
1:28
He had a very self-conscious idea of the English gentleman himself. He had elocution lessons. He was trying to fit in with the idea of an English well-spoken gentleman of football
1:40
And I think he was genuinely upset by the aggression of the Argentinians
1:45
But we've only heard that story really from the English point of view. And of course, the English did win the game
1:49
We did 1-0, I think. Let's fast forward to 1986 and the hand of God
1:55
Yes. Well, the hand of God, my brother was in that stadium in the Azteca on that day
2:01
I was just watching it at home. There's a guy, there's a brilliant football writer who's on my podcast called Asif Burhan
2:08
who's written a whole book called The Hand of God, which is about the game
2:12
but also the weird political undercurrents of the moment I mean everything in a way about England for me is summarised by Barry Davis commentary
2:25
because what had happened was Maradona had just clearly put the ball in
2:29
with his hand over Peter Shilton. And it was really apparent, and it's really apparent when you watch it now
2:34
that that was a handball, but he got away with it. And we're all still steaming from that. And then Maradona scores what is possibly still the greatest goal
2:41
in the history of World Cup football. possibly in the history of football, an incredible goal
2:45
And Barry Davis says, you have to say that's magnificent. And for me, that's one of the most English statements ever said
2:52
because I promise you, if we had scored the second goal, the Argentinian commentators would not be saying
2:58
you have to say that's magnificent. They would still be swearing blood. So we're back to gentlemen, really
3:04
Yeah. And that takes us next to 1998 and David Beckham. Yes
3:09
Well, David Beckham being sent off after what really, to me now, when I look at it again, looks like a very gentle tap on the calf of Diego Simeone
3:20
And it's a massive overreaction. And given now that FIFA are pretty hot on simulation, there's an argument that Simeone should have been sent off
3:29
I mean, there is contact, unlike the other day with Mbolo in the Swiss game where there was no contact
3:35
But it's such a massive overreaction. I mean that game is a strange one
3:41
Because I think it's now remembered much more for Beckham Than for anything else
3:45
Whereas in fact it's an incredible England-Argentina game Astonishing goal from Michael Owen
3:49
Astonishing set piece from Argentina when they get back And then an incredible once again penalty shootout
3:56
In which poor old David Batty is the one who has to shoulder the mantle of the misser
4:01
There's a heck of a lot of history here David To what extent are you genuinely looking forward to Wednesday
4:07
or to what extent is it heart in the mouth? It's going to be a very, very emotional moment
4:13
I'm going to just, before I answer that, because I was there in 2002 when we beat them
4:18
Because I have to say that in Japan, I was in the ground when Beckham got his revenge
4:23
The penalty, yeah. The penalty, and we beat them 1-0. And they didn't, I think, go through to the next round
4:28
as a result of that game. I think England and Sweden did So we did get a bit of revenge there But it is a very odd back thing with England and Argentina Biggest grudge match in world football Well England for the Scots I think
4:43
As a Scot, I would agree with that, yes. And England-Germany is always historically
4:48
I think it's very, I don't know if this is right, but I think it's very big for the Argentinians
4:53
I think the Argentinians, because of the history, and we haven't really mentioned this, but because of the Malvinas
4:58
you get into trouble if you call them Malvinas, because of the Falklands stroke Malvinas
5:02
You know, as far as I understand it, I mean, I'm sure it was retroengineering
5:06
but Maradona said later on that his goal, both his goals, he scored them for the Argentinian men
5:12
who were shot down by the British in that war. So for them, it's always been..
5:18
Highly emotional, yeah. Whereas I don't think you would say, I don't think you get any England players saying
5:23
that they're doing it for the Falklands. I think that would be very unlikely. Indeed
5:27
I think there's a bit of asymmetry there, to be honest. Yeah, it's going to be a wild, wild Wednesday. Thank you very, very much indeed, David Baddiel
5:34
Between the kind of 1850s and 1950, you're talking, people often talk about the informal empire and Argentina being the richest part of the world that isn't formally part of Britain's empire, but which is linked through banking, railways, migration, and then towards the end of the 19th century, sport
5:51
One of the interesting things, of course, is that it's the Argentinians called us the Ingleses, and that rather wraps around the Scottish, Welsh, Irish and English migrations
6:01
But there is a bit, well, there has been a very big Welsh community in Patagonia, for instance, I think
6:07
Absolutely Welsh speaking as well to the present day. The present day. And in terms of British cultural influence on Argentina, football is an obvious example
6:16
But I think other sports as well and a lot of their banking system and the way they've done business has been British influenced
6:23
That's right. And so football is the one that everybody always knows about. In a way, sports give us such an insight into South American society
6:30
So, for example, at the beginning of the 20th century, the Argentine Athletics Association can't quite decide whether to run a mile or 1500 metres to follow imperial or metric
6:40
So Argentina's kind of caught between francophilia and angophilia. English music British music the Beatles hugely influential amongst Argentinian music through the later 20th century Food not so much Food not so much So this all leads to the obvious question why do they dislike us so much
7:01
Well, I think with David, you talked about the footballing episodes, of course, but were you to ask anybody to talk about somewhere
7:12
that was a colony of Britain, why do they dislike us so much? Obviously, imperialism leaves a heavy weight and a similar thing is felt in Argentina
7:20
So then that becomes politicized in the 40s and 50s. Juan Perón, nationalization of the railways
7:27
So in a way, those British origins of football in Argentina become a rhetorical device
7:33
Say, oh, look, they gave us all this stuff and then we overcame it and defeated them and became better than you
7:38
So the English presence in Argentina becomes a political pivot, if you like
7:44
for Argentinian nationalism, which leaves its present up to the day when we're in this kind of
7:48
post-football period where it's all about the media and much less about what happens on the pitch
7:55
And if we go back to the very origins of Argentina, I'm thinking of what the Argentine
7:59
foreign minister said about the Falkland Islands, what they call the Malvinas today
8:03
which is they're just transplanted people who've been brought in and stuck down there
8:07
They're not really from there. The same is true of an awful lot of Argentinians in terms of the
8:12
the Portuguese and Spanish origins of the country. Right, so Argentina is a nation state
8:19
forged by migration in the beginning of the 19th century. The Malvinas Falklands date their pertinence
8:25
to the British Empire in 1833. It's only 20 years after a British naval squadron
8:32
occupied Buenos Aires. So it's not a surprise that that imperial history
8:37
looms large when we start talking about the Malvinas and the Falklands. and then obviously that decisive footballing encounter in 1986
8:44
coming just after the Malvinas-Falklands war that you mentioned before. So why do they hate us so much
8:51
I take issue with what David said about the Argentinian commentaries. Obviously the Argentinian commentary on the Hand of God episode
8:58
by Victor Hugo Morales is an absolute work of poetry and genius
9:02
And had that goal been scored by the English team, there's no way he'd have been spitting blood
9:07
He'd have stepped back and admired the artistry and the joy that football can bring us
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