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Shelagh Fogarty is joined by the iPaper's football correspondent Pete Hall to analyse Thomas Tuchel's decisions in England's World Cup semi-final defeat, before opening the debate to LBC callers. The England boss retains the full backing of the FA despite the Three Lions’ disappointing defeat to Argentina. He has suggested he intends to stay in charge for the European Championship in two years’ time. The German is taking most of the blame for his team throwing away a 1-0 lead and has faced heavy criticism for his changes in the second half. 0:00 Pete Hill unpacks the mistakes Thomas Tuchel made in England's semi-final game against Argentina 11:54 Mark says 'we had a bad eighteen minutes last night' 16:17 Bill thinks that despite the talent of the players in the England squad, we are 'unable to complete the task' 19:20 'Pep Guardiola is a different gravy' says Lee Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #shelaghfogarty #worldcup #thomastuchel #england #englandfootball #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
Pete Hall joins me as well, football correspondent for the iPaper, who's written today for Thomas Tuchel Howlers that cost England against Argentina
0:09
Hi, Pete. Do you want to talk us through those Howlers as you see it? Yeah. Hi, guys. Yeah, I think it could have been more, to be honest, but I was restricted to four
0:20
Just the overall negativity, Sheila, you brought up that incredible stat, 12% possession
0:26
I mean, that's just kicking the ball back every five minutes, isn't it? That's how little it is
0:32
Overall negativity was just dumbfounding. England had Argentina where they wanted them
0:37
It wasn't like Argentina were barraging England. It wasn't like it was wave after wave of attack
0:42
England were on top and that goal, another goal, could have killed Argentina off
0:47
They were there for the taking. They were on the canvas and they just went negative instantly
0:53
and then he went five at the back far, far too early
0:57
invited, you can do that he's done that to great success in the World Cup
1:01
against Mexico and against Norway but you can't do it against the world champions
1:05
you can't do it against Lionel Messi you can't sit back on the edge of the penalty area
1:09
and let him do what he does you can't give him space to do that he will find gaps
1:13
that others can't Mexican players couldn't do that Norwegians couldn't do that
1:17
we saw him find the gap didn't we in the second goal with that cross to the score
1:21
that's what happens if you step back these players will thread that needle
1:25
because they're that good. That's the difference at that level. And the way Messi turns on a ball
1:31
and fully owns it even when he's not touching it he has the capacity to just place it
1:37
so he'll then pick it up faster than anybody else will is just extraordinary. So that's the first one
1:42
I want to go into that in a bit more detail with you when you've told us what the other three are as well
1:46
For people who might not be I'm certainly no tactician but I can read the game a bit
1:51
but for people who might not be able to we'll dig down into what you think he should have done
1:55
instead of that so that's Howland number one number two? Yeah he took off England's best pressing forward
2:02
in Anthony Gordon he was there at the World Cup because he pressed his defenders and he took him off and put another defender on
2:07
so you're taking away your first line of defence there defence is about more than just putting bodies at the back
2:13
it's about keeping them out of your penalty area further up the pitch
2:17
and they took England's best presser off and put on another defender where you didn't need more bodies
2:22
because there was plenty of bodies in there already and it just didn't work. Then another one is that Kobe Main
2:29
who Manchester United fans will know, has an unerring ability, a composure on the ball
2:35
even in the biggest occasions. And that is what England desperately needed in that time
2:41
somebody to get hold of the ball, not panic and boot it back to Argentina like they were doing
2:45
Somebody who wouldn't be overawed by the occasion. and Kobe Mane was perfect at that
2:49
and he didn't get a kick all tournament. It's just one of the most bizarre, bizarre things
2:54
and Manchester United supporters, I've spoken to a couple of people at the club as well, absolutely baffled by it
2:59
He wasn't ill or anything? We don't know if he was ill or... No, no, fully fit
3:03
He had a brilliant second half of the season for United. It was a battle for him to get into the squad
3:11
but once he's there to not utilise somebody of that talent when that is exactly what you needed in the hour of need
3:17
somebody to get hold of the ball somebody who wasn't going to give it away instantly somebody who wasn't going to panic
3:21
he was perfect for the occasion and yeah it's absolutely incredible that he didn't get used at all
3:28
not just to get Argentina he didn't get a kick all tournament one of only two outfield players to do that
3:34
it's just absolutely incredible and one more yeah so we've got the five at the back
3:41
overall negativity Kobi Maynou and Anthony Gordon, his change
3:52
This is what we got Thomas Tuchel in for. This was his moment
3:57
The big moments, knowing exactly where to cut the knife and what to do
4:03
Yeah, he's there for that reason. He keeps telling us that knockout football is his thing
4:11
Knockout football is where he comes alive. He's actually said that. that this is when we hire him
4:17
This is why we've hired him. This is why the FA coveted him for so long
4:21
And he just didn't step up. Like, he just took unnecessary gambles as well
4:27
So Rhys James was given a starting place at right back. He's been injured on and off for years, really, for Chelsea
4:35
and for England during this tournament. He wasn't fit at the start of the tournament. He's not really fully fit now, but Tuchel is a big fan of his
4:43
so he wanted to play him in the big games. However, he took out a player who's been one of England's standout players
4:48
in the tournament in Nico O'Reilly, Man City's left back. So why take that gamble now? Why take that risk
4:55
He likes to make bold calls. That's become his calling card throughout his time
4:59
throughout his managerial career, beforehand and with England. But the World Cup semi-final is not the time to make those calls
5:06
What about Saka? Why wasn't he used? Another one that he keeps chopping and changing those wide positions
5:14
I mean, there's not been a game when he's not chopped and changed, somebody in those wide positions
5:19
Saka has had his injury problems. Like, he came into the tournament not fully fit. But when he's played, he's looked really good
5:25
He's looked really threatening. He's assisted several goals in the tournament. It has to be to do with the fitness concerns
5:33
because he came into the tournament, he wasn't fully fit at the start
5:37
He had a couple of setbacks here and there Perhaps I could understand that because Morgan Rodgers had earned his call and he played quite well He put in a great cross for England goal It wasn necessarily a risk because England have strength in those areas
5:52
Where he made the risk is that England don't... It's been well-documented England's problems with right-back
5:59
England didn't have the luxury of turning to a fully fit Rhys James
6:04
If a fully fit Rhys James plays, fine, but he's not fully fit
6:08
And zooming out for a bit, for a moment, to previous World Cups and big tournaments in which we've got this far but no further
6:16
I might talk about politics too much because what I was thinking this morning was whether the England team, this one and previous ones, are in a way a reflection of our country
6:28
Too often too timid, stuck in old ways. And we keep choosing leaders that actually stymie us in the key moments
6:34
yeah I mean that's kind of summarising doesn't it and it's this is why it's so disappointing
6:42
because we've had this for years like we've been the nearly men for 60 years really like
6:47
um if we're not getting knocked out early in tournaments we we have often gone quite far and
6:51
then it's been penalty heartache which can happen anytime it's quarterfinal exits semi-final exits
6:56
never got to a World Cup final since we just assumed this was going to be the one because
7:01
we were promised something different. That's the thing about Thomas Tuchel, is the FA have said from the start
7:08
this is an elite manager. He comes alive in the knockout games
7:12
where we've come up short before, where we've not had the psychological strength
7:16
to come through these tough occasions. This is a manager that can take..
7:23
We always had the talent. There's never been an issue of talent. We've had the talent for probably 20 years
7:28
to get to another final or longer. But it's just that psychological effect of getting over that final line
7:34
against teams like Argentina, who are the experts at it. Six semifinals, World Cup semifinals, Argentina, six wins
7:41
That's what England got Thomas Tuchel in for. We needed somebody to get us to the Argentina level of mental strength
7:48
We thought we had it. Same old, same old. The mental strength was clear, wasn't it
7:53
And you only have to listen to somebody like Messi, both before and after that game, to see that mental strength from him
7:59
And he is clearly the heart and soul of the squad, isn't he? It was interesting and sad to hear Micah Richards yesterday after the match
8:07
I know he sadly had a bereavement yesterday that he learned about
8:11
but he was so spot on, I thought, in his commentary afterwards
8:15
in his comments after the match, when he was re-showing key moments that led to the Argentinian goals
8:22
and a lack of concentration on the part of the England players, compounded by the mistakes
8:28
that I think you rightly point out in the management choices. And he was saying, you know
8:33
at this level, you can't deliver a substandard concentration level. All the while you're doing that
8:43
Messi is reading the game like a master. So you need to be on him. And they showed that heat map
8:48
of where Messi was for the whole of the season. I'm sure you saw the same stuff. The heat map that he was
8:53
where he was for the whole of the second half. He had read those substitutions and thought
9:00
game on, I'm staying here and I'm going to get down to that goal. And sure enough, he did it
9:05
That's perhaps what's as disappointing as anything, is that it was telegraphed
9:11
Like, if you take this philosophy, if you sit back that deep
9:16
you invite this kind of pressure. Messi's been at the top of his game for over 20 years
9:21
He's not new to this. he's seen this he's seen this situation
9:26
time and time and time again and he knows exactly what to do and Thomas
9:30
what's so baffling is that Thomas Tupel has seen this situation time and time again
9:36
and he's come through it so look the very very best managers
9:40
in history have had their moments when they've just got it wrong
9:44
so Alex Ferguson often talks about his mistakes against Barcelona in the Champions League final
9:49
Pep Guardiola Pep Guardiola's team selection against Chelsea, Thomas Tuchel's Chelsea in the Champions League final
9:56
he brings that up all the time because he got it wrong
10:00
he got his selection wrong so you can perhaps forgive him this once
10:04
and that's why he will keep his job the FA have seen enough
10:08
Do you think he should keep his job? Yeah I think he is
10:12
a top class manager but there's one big caveat here is that Pep Guardiola is free
10:18
and available and he would want the England job If he wasn't available, no question
10:23
No question. You stick with Thomas Tuchel. But one of the best managers there's ever been is available
10:29
Beloved in large parts of England anyway. Oh, yeah. He's a genius
10:34
The man's an absolute genius. He changed English football from the grassroots up to the highest level
10:39
And he'd won it. And his hunger and his old foe, Jurgen Klopp
10:44
he's got to get the Germany job as well. So him against Klopp again, England against Germany
10:49
It's got so many amazing narratives. Do you think it could happen? Do you think it could happen
10:54
No, because I think the FA will stick with Thomas Tuchel because they've put a lot of faith into him
10:58
And they have liked, until last night, we've liked what we've seen from him. He's got things right in the big games
11:04
England weren't, you know, at World Cups, you're not going to blow teams away
11:09
But they did show elements of getting that psychological strength. You know, coming through the Mexico game in Mexico
11:15
against the entire nation, breathing down the necks at altitude, was as big a night They amazing yeah And final word on the foul what would you score it One to ten from Argentina I sure we committed a few ourselves
11:32
but not quite on the scale they did. I mean, the karate chop to the neck, the rugby tackle on the touchline, come on
11:38
Yeah, it's in the 50s, isn't it? But I think England handled it quite well
11:42
I was quite impressed with that. It's the rest that they need to..
11:46
I wouldn't have. I'd have been sent off. Oh, I wouldn't have lasted five minutes
11:50
Yeah, I lost my ride. Pete, great to talk to you. Thank you for joining me today
11:54
I'm sure we'll get over it soon. Paul says, you lost deal with it
11:58
Oh, Paul, we know we did, but we're allowed a moan. Come on. You lost deal with it
12:03
Try to have at least a little dignity. Oh, trust me, Paul
12:07
If I set down my dignity to talk about that match, you'd know about it
12:12
Rich says, last night was deja vu. We take the lead. We can't keep the ball
12:16
We sit back and eventually the better team wins. Tuchel had no idea how to change it, said Richard
12:23
Thing is, he did have an idea, surely. He just chose not to. Caroline says, poor England, always a bridesmaid
12:29
never the bride. Oh, dear. Mark in Hawley, hello. Hello, Sheila. Thank you for taking my call
12:35
Pleasure. I've phoned to talk to you about the people who are calling for Tuchel to be sacked
12:43
I think the biggest problem we have with England football is that we won it in 1966
12:51
and people don't know enough information about how we won it. So Alf Ramsey is lauded as our greatest manager
12:59
In that tournament, there were 16 teams. All the African teams that entered for qualification
13:06
15 of them withdrew because during qualification, FIFA said no team from Africa is going to be guaranteed automatic qualification
13:15
When it got to the finals in 1966, there were 15 teams from Europe and South America and North Korea
13:21
That was the World Cup we won. OK, so if you look at the win ratio for various managers
13:30
our second most successful win ratio manager would be Alf Ramsey on just over 61 percent
13:37
And Gareth Southgate very close to 60 percent. Thomas Tuchel is on a win
13:42
Oh, have we lost the line? So, are you somewhere exposed, Mark
13:49
Your line is chopping in and out. Oh, I'm so sorry that my line is dropping out
13:54
Let me see if it works better if I stick my head out the window. Is that better? Okay. As long as it's not endangering you sticking your head out the window
14:00
Yes, that's fine. No, certainly. I wouldn't endanger myself on your show
14:04
Okay. Okay. So, carry on, Mark. So, what I was saying was that Thomas Tuchel has an 80% win rate
14:13
We had a bad 18 minutes last night. But you've got to bear in mind that Ramosy failed to qualify for a World Cup in 1974
14:25
Don Revy failed to take us to a World Cup in 1978. And I think there was a third manager
14:32
This is only our fourth semi-final in our history. And the problem we have is people go, oh, we won it in 66
14:39
Why can't we win it again? Well, because there were no African teams in it
14:43
There was only 16 teams in it. It was in England. And Ramsey's record doesn't stand up
14:50
to fail to take us to the 1974 World Cup. And he never qualified for a World Cup
14:55
He got there in 1966 automatically as hosts and in 1970 in Brazil as an ex-winner
15:01
So we have to dispel this myth. And Messi hadn't been born. About the one star we have on our shirt
15:06
And Messi hadn't been born. Messi hadn't been born yet. Yeah. Let me put this to you in response to what you just said
15:11
12% possession in the time following our goal. Uh-huh. Yeah, it was a bad 18 minutes
15:20
But that was more than 18 minutes. I've managed football teams at grassroots level
15:25
and I understand why Tuchel made that decision. It's so easy retrospectively to say it was the wrong decision
15:33
because it was. But at the time, it was too early to shut up shop
15:38
but that's what he chose to do and he's the man who runs the shop. But even I knew it was too early to shut up shop
15:45
and I can't tell you how... I mean, amateur doesn't even describe my knowledge of football tactics
15:52
So I'm not pretending that I know a massive amount about the depth and breadth of football tactics
15:59
But I just thought, right, OK, well, we're going to need another one because this is Argentina
16:04
That's what I thought as soon as he got that goal. Gordon, we're going to need another one, quick
16:09
because this is Argentina. He knows that. We've lost him. Mark, let my colleagues know you didn't fall out the window
16:17
Thanks very much, Mark and Hawley. Historically speaking, whether it be West Germany or Germany
16:23
Brazil, Argentina, naturally, we do not beat these teams that often, do we
16:28
We're just, there is something. Our players are magnificent. that Benningham, Kane are just pure class
16:39
top of the notch players. But we're just unable to complete the task, aren't we
16:45
Whether it be Southgate or Hare Tuchel. I mean, we don't win, though, do we
16:52
But the thing is, from the players' perspective yesterday, and again, I'm guessing here
16:58
it won't have been lost on them that the decisions the manager was making
17:03
were forcing them into a defensive position when they wanted some of them will have been well able and wanting perhaps to go into a more offensive position and mentality in the game
17:14
for that last half an hour or so. And that must be very frustrating
17:18
If everything you've been asked to do feels counterintuitive to what you want to do, you've got to follow those orders
17:24
He is the manager. But that must stymie the game of some of those players, mustn't it
17:30
Yeah, but I mean, to be honest, it just simply is always I'm like a mirror damage of the final that we played against Italy
17:36
We took an early lead and then we then placed the bus in front of our goal, didn't we
17:43
I mean, at what point? You know, I don't have to believe that Southgate was an informative bonus for English football
17:54
He put in the mould. He didn't get the, I don't think he's ever really got truly the respect of the British people
18:01
because he achieved something that no other manager has ever achieved from 66 to date when he got to two finals
18:11
And you know what? It comes down to one thing. We just don't have the players or our players do not have the mouse
18:17
to win a game of football. As you and I know... Well, they do because they've won several very high-end games
18:23
to get to where they got yesterday. But you look at Liverpool and Manchester United at their peaks
18:29
they would always find a way to get to European Cup finals even when the game was going against them
18:35
they would have a player's goal and win them from 3-0 down yes you see what I'm saying
18:41
they had that ability to do that and quite frankly I would also like to say
18:47
if the police thought the managed decisions were wrong they'd actually come together and say no we're not going to do this
18:55
in the middle of a game yes, yes I've seen this in football where players haven't agreed with managers
19:02
and maybe won the game. And I don't want to blame Mr Tuchel because it would be rude of me
19:12
But do you think his decisions or his howlers, as my guest Pete all said earlier, were the problem
19:18
Yes, I do. OK, thanks, Bill. The competitiveness has gone out of football
19:23
And from the young ages, you know, from five to nine-year-olds, They had sort of different teams
19:30
At the same age, they'll have like an A team, a B team, a C team
19:34
Now, what people don't sort of understand is children develop at different stages
19:39
But what you do have is a lot of what I call trophy managers, which are dads or ex-football players that it's all about them
19:45
not about a kid's progression. And they should be able to swap, you know
19:49
because if a kid's getting really good in, say, the C team, you get better by playing with better players
19:55
You do. And you need the competitiveness in you. you know and the kids have got to want to do it and you know we have this thing where you've got
20:02
to give the kids certain minutes on the field and everyone has to get a trophy and this and that and
20:07
the pecking of this is gone and if we can start right at the start I mean look with Tuchel you
20:14
know I think he kind of done the right thing but not the right thing in the way that he said he's
20:19
taken a team not the best players to this World Cup and he took players that were injured you know
20:24
and poor Declan, do you know what I mean? He was ill. He still went out there, still had a go
20:29
even though he wasn't 100%. Now, but what I'm also thinking is
20:33
the FA are telling us there is not an English manager out there
20:37
that can manage the English team. Now, we need to start putting some effort into managing children
20:43
Do you think there is? Well, I mean, do you know what I'd really love
20:47
I know it's going to be a bit sort of out there, but Eddie Howe, I mean, he's done well at Newcastle
20:54
even though his hands have been tied with bands and financial stuff
20:58
But he's a great English manager. I mean, don't get me wrong, I love Pep, but shouldn't we be proud of England
21:03
Shouldn't we say, look, you know, it's like anything. We're saying to ourselves
21:09
there is not an English manager out there that can do this job for us. Speaking of Pep, just finally
21:15
if Pep Guardiola said to the FA, if you come for me, I'm available
21:24
Should they? Wouldn't we be fools not to? I think so. I mean, at the end of the day, I don't know if Tuchel has got his record
21:31
but Pep is just a different gravy. You know, he is one in a kind, and he is one of the goats of managers
21:39
You know, and if he said, look, I'll take the job, it will be idiots not to
21:43
And look, I feel sorry for Tuchel, but these things don't come along often
21:47
and it will give him two years to get ready for the Euros. so I think all in all
21:52
if he says yes, let's go for it but I'd still like to get
21:56
this grassroots thing sorted, get competitiveness they're taken out of everything now
22:00
and also when it rains some of the kids don't play because they might fall over
22:05
we used to play in howlstones and snow we used to play with leather footballs
22:10
when they got wet, if you had it you'd see stars I remember coming back when a ball hit me on the thigh
22:17
and it said mitre on my side for about a week. That's the coolest thing ever
22:23
You love football. You played it and you love it and that's what makes football the best football
22:27
Well, you look at footage of the 70s, obviously there are improvements
22:31
that needed to be made as well, not least in the type of football players are heading
22:35
That Nobby Stiles news this week tells us that, doesn't it? I know he predates his 70s
22:40
but you look at some of that footage from the English leagues in the winter in the 70s
22:48
God, they were tough people. Thank you very much, Lee, for your call. Lee in Southend
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