Up next in 10
England flags are going up all round the country in acts of defiance against councils who are removing them when hung from public property. Aasmah Mir hears the views of LBC's diverse listeners:
00:00 Sachin wants the flag to be flown more regularly, and demands consistency in the rules of what flags can be flown and when.
02:55 Jonathan thinks the movement has been hijacked by “bad actors” and actually has racist undertones.
07:58 Razia describes how uneasy the politicisation of the flag has made her fellow Epping residents.
13:39 Elena says the flags make her feel 'uncomfortable' and represent exclusion.
Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp
#aasmahmir #ukpolitics #LBC
LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK.
Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/
Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
Show More Show Less View Video Transcript
0:00
Sachin, what do you think about these flags
0:02
I think they're brilliant. I mean, I'm obviously from Asian heritage myself
0:07
I think there's absolutely nothing wrong with displaying the St. George's flag
0:12
or the Union Jack or the Scottish flag or anything else. This is, you know, if you can't fly the British flag in Britain
0:21
then, you know, we've lost. We've completely lost, honestly. You know, we have Pakistani flags being flown on, you know..
0:31
Independence Day. Independence Day, Eid. We've got Indian flags. I have an Indian flag at home
0:36
Yeah. I have a Union Jack. I have a, you know, a St. George's flag
0:42
This is Britain. We can fly our flags. If we can fly..
0:47
In fact, I think we should fly our flags in more places. You know, there should be more places
0:53
where we fly the English flag. You know, we've got Tower Hamlets
0:58
we've got Birmingham saying we can't have, you know, the Union Jack
1:03
we can't have the St. George's flag flying because of state's health and safety
1:07
They didn't say that about the Palestinian flags. They've been flying on lampposts all day long
1:14
You know, it's absolutely ridiculous, right? We need to reclaim this country back
1:19
If people are telling us we can't fly the flag of this country. We have seriously lost
1:25
So what about what Sinjar Katwala was saying? I don't know if you heard that
1:31
interview. You know, he's his family, etc. do fly flags, especially events or whatever, and he
1:36
doesn't have any problem with it. He says that really it's something that you do on
1:40
property that you own. If you start sticking flags, and I'll take your point about the Palestinian flag
1:46
I didn't, you know, choose to ignore that, but if you're attaching flags to lamp posts and painting mini roundabouts and all the rest of it
1:57
that's kind of, it might not, you might not want it to be, you know, health and safety
2:01
but it's not really your property. Is it okay? Would it be okay with you if people could just
2:07
fly flags from their houses, their windows, etc? Or do you think that's not enough
2:13
I'll answer that. I believe in consistency. I believe if you have a policy that says you can't
2:19
fly, do certain things in a certain place, then it should fly to everybody, not just a certain group
2:25
We should have consistent laws and regulations about this. If you say you cannot fly the Union
2:31
Jack from a lamppost, you absolutely cannot fly a Palestinian flag from a lamppost. That's the end
2:38
of it, right? I mean, just have one set of consistent rules. So I don't care either way
2:44
but all I can care about is consistency. Okay, that's a fair point
2:49
Sachin, thank you very much. Let's speak to Jonathan who's in Brentwood. Hi, Jonathan
2:54
Hello, hi. How do you feel about flags? The flags right now that are increasing
3:00
Right. I'm going to begin with a direct warning to the racist bad actors
3:06
who are behind this campaign. And I'm not talking about members of communities
3:11
who are caught up in it. There's a difference. I'm talking about the bad actors
3:15
We know what they're doing. We know this is not about immigration
3:20
We know this is not about national pride. I am not white
3:25
Let's put it this way. But I was born in this country. I've lived nowhere else
3:30
I have a job. I'm active in the community. I'm British. But in the past few days, people who very well know my background have called me an immigrant
3:40
I've even been called an illegal immigrant. I've been told that I'm merely a visitor to this country
3:47
They say that displaying all of these flags is some sort of act of defiance because they been downed for them They not allowed to display the flag What nonsense I as someone who is not white but British
4:00
quite enjoy seeing a bit of bunting when, you know, there's a new monarch or a jubilee to celebrate
4:06
or on a rare occasion the England sports team wins something. We're fine with flags being displayed there
4:12
We're fine with all of that. And I actually raise this in many local community groups sometimes
4:17
but the local community that that's absolutely fine we're you know we were fine with this um
4:23
and if the flag is displayed in the spirit of unity and pride go for it and i was laughed at
4:29
and i was laughed at by the sorts of people who are encouraging others to deface private property
4:35
to spray paint over road markings which is probably one of the most idiotic things you can do
4:42
especially like zebra crosses where people are going to trample over and possibly spit at
4:47
because they know full well it's not about pride so what we do is begin to destroy an argument about
4:53
well why other countries could display their flags no one's ever stopped them Jonathan rewind a bit
4:59
I didn't want to interrupt you because I could tell that you wanted to get all of that out
5:04
you said at the beginning that you've lived in this country you're born here
5:07
you've lived here all your life and I think I'm right in saying that it's only recently
5:13
that you have come up against people, presumably strangers, members of the public
5:19
saying you're an immigrant and you should go back to where you came from
5:23
Is that right? Oh, yeah, absolutely. So without using any of the words
5:27
can you tell me what happened and what they said to you? Normally when you hear them being a little bit too overtly racist
5:39
about certain people and certain demographics and you try to correct them, saying it's a little bit out of the line
5:44
Then they turn on you and then they remind you that you're an immigrant. You're actually just a visitor to this country
5:50
Boy, you should be grateful. And all that nonsense. And then you say you were born here
5:55
And then what do they say? Yeah. Well, that tends to shut them up
6:00
Right. I mean, I've had some online, I've had even worse. I've had responses to that with pictures of orangutans
6:06
and nonsense like that. So this isn't about pride. We know full well this is not about illegal immigration
6:13
This is absolute nonsense. We know what's behind it. And also, we know what they're planning in September
6:17
We know that. Okay, spell out for me then. If it's not about the debate around immigration
6:23
and people getting fed up, etc., about small boats, what is it about
6:27
This is racism. This is about anyone who is not white. Because, again, I'm not white, but I am British
6:36
So why now? I still don't understand. Listen, I... Go on. Yeah, yeah, why now
6:42
Fair point, fair point, why now? Well, like I said, we want to differentiate between people in communities
6:46
who are caught up in all of this, who believe the lies. I've had someone say to me
6:51
it's actually illegal to display the St. George's Cross because it offends ethnic minorities
6:59
That's nonsense. They believe in these lies. And these lies have been planted out there
7:03
So you can't blame people caught up in the lie. but what you can do is point the finger at the bad actors
7:09
who have organised this because they are planning something for September and we know they are
7:13
and what they want to do is rile up as many people as possible
7:17
to create some sort of narrative that it was because of public anger
7:22
and I want to get it out there as someone who is British and who is not white
7:25
we have no problem with the flag being displayed properly in fact I think are there rules about how you should display the flag
7:31
and half the time these patriots aren't even following the rules I got to read this out It a WhatsApp from Angela in Stevenage I did not feel patriotic to England at all until five minutes ago I just pulled off the A1 at Junction 7 and to see all the flags on the roundabouts and down the dual carriageway made me feel very proud and quite emotional the first time in years
7:53
So thank you to all the people that put up the flags. Well, there you go
7:58
Razia has called in. She is in Epping. Very much been in the news recently
8:04
Razia, what's your opinion on flags that are not on private building
8:09
but are on lampposts and painted on many roundabouts, etc. I think had the flags been put up in good spirit
8:17
then they would have been celebrated. But unfortunately, what started with a protest against the asylum seekers
8:24
but then has turned very quickly into something completely more sinister, I think our wonderful flag has been hijacked
8:32
It's not been put up in good spirit. and if it was a sporting event
8:38
or something that we were celebrating something that we really felt jubilant about
8:43
I don't think anybody would have a problem with the flags going up
8:47
but it's the spirit in which they have been put up when you have masked men in the dead of the night
8:54
hoisting up these flags it's very clear they've not been put up in good spirit
9:01
they've been aligned with the far right unfortunately and with the reform BNP
9:07
And I think this is why people are upset. I have had so many emails from residents
9:14
both white and of colour, that are saying they feel they're uncomfortable
9:19
This is not about being patriotic to the country. This is something completely different
9:26
And they are calling for the flags to be taken down. I mean, we are calling for the flags to be taken down
9:33
Razzie, we should just say this. What's your job title? I'm a town and district councillor and deputy mayor of Epping
9:40
Right. OK. So you're right in the thick of it, really, aren't you
9:45
Very much so. And every time we try to put a reasoned argument forward, we are shut down
9:53
I've had so much abuse on social media, so much hatred. I've lived in Epping since 2012
10:01
I brought my children up in Epping. I love Epping. It is, and I've said this a number of times
10:06
it's an incredibly special place to live. We are blessed with having the forest on our doorstep
10:13
And the community has always been so lovely, so accommodating, so welcoming
10:20
Suddenly, this level of hatred is just beyond. It really is. You talked there about the people putting things up in the middle of the night
10:31
Just quickly, there'll be some people shouting at the radio saying, well, we have to do that because if we do it during the day
10:36
we'll be stopped because it's health and safety or it's not allowed, etc
10:42
So that's what some people would say. But Razia, we haven't got a huge amount of time. And I do want to ask you, seeing as you are Deputy Mayor for Epping
10:49
what your own view was of the High Court ruling around the Bell Hotel? um i i think i think they've shot themselves in the foot of unperfectly honest because
10:59
the government is not going to give in to violence if they win what's the message that
11:06
we're sending out it's a very dangerous precedent that we're sending out that the more violent you
11:12
are yes we we will give in violence should never pay violence should never ever ever pay vigilante
11:19
behaviour is not acceptable. But ultimately it was a legal issue, wasn't it, rather than
11:25
what was going on around the country? It was a planning issue and
11:30
if the judge had actually thought about rather than using the violence
11:35
to determine the judgement if they had actually thought about the planning issue I don think the judge would have ruled in that way because when you look at planning you look at environmentally based nuances
11:50
I mean, you know, the neighbourhood, how is it affecting the neighbourhood, the road network
11:56
That wasn't really considered. What was considered was actually having asylum seekers there
12:03
is causing the residents to become violent. It's a level of violence
12:08
And that to me was wrong. Right. And other people would say that having the hotel there was making residents feel unsafe
12:16
It's very difficult because I know residents that live opposite the Bell Hotel
12:21
I have also been contacted by residents that live within the little cul-de-sac next to the Bell Hotel
12:28
and they've said to me in emails that up until the protests
12:35
they didn't even know that asylum seekers were there. So you have this sort of, you know, lots of different opinions
12:44
Of course, yeah. And I think the problem is that you have this grip-feeding effect of negativity
12:52
of far-right sort of slogans being branded about. I spoke to somebody only a few days ago that said actually one of the waitresses in one of the local cafes said no she hasn't seen anything but she's heard
13:07
So you hear and then you take of the gospel that that's what's happening. Look we cannot minimise the assault that happened
13:16
The perpetrator was swiftly arrested and charged. Let the police get on with their job
13:23
We need calm. We need peace again in our town so we can all go about our business without feeling threatened
13:30
Okay, Razia, I think we can all agree on that. Razia, thank you very much. I want to squeeze in Alina who's in Southwark
13:35
Hi, Alina. Flags, how do they make you feel? To be honest, these flags make me feel so uncomfortable
13:44
And this is probably just because of my experiences with life. I'm mixed race
13:50
and I've always associated that flag with you know, you're not welcome
13:58
that was what I got from the flag I mean, even growing up and watching This Is England
14:02
that flag was flown and you know, there was a lot of racism in that movie
14:07
I've received racism from people who've flown the flag in their gardens
14:12
you know, so for me, when I see that flag it's you're not welcome
14:17
And for the past couple of weeks, I've received racist abuse, you know, and mainly it's from people who fly that flag or on social media or have it as a profile picture
14:30
So, yeah, it makes me feel so uncomfortable. It really does. Always
14:36
What about around sporting events and stuff like that when England team were playing
14:41
No, I think that's because it's a completely different reason. I mean, come on, this flag situation has only just come up because of the asylum seeker in the hotel
14:49
Why didn't they do it before? Why didn't they do it before? You know, I work in domestic violence
14:54
I support women that are in asylum seeker hotels that have fled DV
14:59
So it's not only just these men that they're talking about that are in these hotels. There's women and children in there too, you know
15:06
So it's just, I don't, I'm British. I was born here, born and bred
15:13
My mother's white, British, you know. So I'm very proud of this country
15:18
But when I see things like this and the racism that are coming from people that fly this flag, I'm just disappointed
15:24
You know, and I point it out. I point it out that it makes me feel uncomfortable
15:28
And it's like, well, how does it make you feel uncomfortable? You know, you get a lot of stick for it
15:32
But I just feel like no one will understand because they're not in my position
#news
#Politics
#Sensitive Subjects
#Public Policy