Up next in 10
Andy Burnham is under pressure to beef up Britain's borders after 60,000 migrants crossed into the EU through the Spanish enclave of Ceuta in just one day.
00:00 | Jo tells Ali about social media posts encouraging the incursion revealed by a CBS investigation
06:45 | Dan thinks it could be an attempt to destabilise Spain and the E.U., similar to the ones orchestrated by Putin and Belarus
12:28 | Paul explains why he thinks the Moroccan government could be behind it.
Tory Priti Patel has demanded immediate action to prevent the thousands of African migrants who illegally crossed the border from Morocco from reaching the UK.
Writing to home secretary Shabana Mahmood and foreign secretary Ed Miliband, Dame Priti demanded strengthened procedures at both the English Channel and Gibraltar.
Italy has taken similar action, suspending their Schengen free travel agreement with Spain.
Amid the diplomatic chaos, Ali Miraj passes the mic to our listeners to discuss what happened, and why.
Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp
#alimiraj #spain #ceuta #immigration #border #politics #europeanunion #italy #politics #lbc
LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK.
Show More Show Less View Video Transcript
0:00
Jo in North Ayrshire, good afternoon
0:03
Hi Ali, I sent this through by WhatsApp this morning so you can check it there
0:08
CBS News, Aidan Stretch is the journalist, he interviewed migrants who came to Zutis
0:16
And they were very, very young migrants and they said that they had been encouraged on social media
0:22
They've seen social media posts that said that Spain had opened the door to them
0:27
that they were welcome and that if they went there they could claim asylum and stay in Spain, which is not true
0:34
So that was apparently why they did this massive rush. And you could see the disappointment and the shock on their faces
0:41
when it was explained to them by Aidan Stretch, the journalist, that that wasn't true
0:47
So my question would be, who is behind these social media posts
0:51
and why have they done it? What do they stand to gain for it
0:55
This is clearly damaging Europe and the European Union. So who wants to damage Europe and the European Union
1:03
Well, I would suggest that you mention Trump, so I'll mention Trump. I would suggest that Trump is doing very badly in the polls
1:09
I think Farage has also fallen down in the polls. I'm just putting that out there
1:14
Morocco has also named a new highway after Trump. And earlier this year, Marco Rubio, I think it was the state office of the US, said that the Spanish enclaves or exclaves rather in Morocco should be Moroccan
1:34
So I'll just mention that little US Trump triangle with Morocco there
1:39
And I think that we need to look at what the far right, what the anti-Europeans, what the anti-U lot are all up against
1:46
And I would suggest that perhaps the far right is behind this. Obviously, I have no evidence to suggest that
1:51
But if you join the dots, I would suggest that. The far right, as you say, Joe, may or may not be behind it
1:58
I don't have any evidence either. We do know that the US government has talked about civilizational erasure
2:05
They're very concerned about the large numbers of migrants coming into Europe
2:09
That is publicly been declared. We heard that from JD Vance in Munich
2:12
We've heard it from Donald Trump as well. So there's nothing to hide there. They've been very open about that
2:19
But irrespective of whether it's some dark sinister plot by members or sympathetic to the far right or not
2:26
is it not up to European countries, in this case Spain, to have adequate border measures in place
2:33
to ensure that this kind of, inverted commas, invasion, because it's very difficult to argue that it was anything else, cannot happen
2:40
yes absolutely i'm i'm against mass immigration and i'm certainly against this kind of illegal
2:46
mass immigration like this my my so of course but if you you know a lot of this is oh um it's all
2:54
europe's fault they're letting these people in a lot of these people tramp across european
3:00
countries as we know to get to the uk but we're not prepared to be tougher though joe are we that's
3:06
the problem. Then that's the UK's fault, isn't it? That's my point
3:10
That's the UK's fault, not Europe's fault. But Jo, if we look, the UK, we've got our own issue with the
3:16
small boats. I understand that. And we also have another issue where people
3:20
keep talking about genuine refugees. I mean, I would posit, and I
3:24
don't know for certain, but I would hazard a guess. Let's call it a hypothesis here
3:29
The majority of those 60,000 people who, from the pictures I saw, largely seem to be men
3:34
right, on their own, are probably economic migrants. They're not fleeing persecution. Some of them might be
3:41
I totally agree with you. Some of them might be. But then we hear that ised as well regularly, don't we
3:46
That people are fleeing persecution and we should hold out the hand of friendship and understanding because that a long tradition and our tradition is now being abused If you an economic migrant go and apply in a normal way right
3:58
I agree with you. I agree with you. I am not one of those people who's saying we've got to let everybody in. Quite the opposite. I am fed up of mass immigration
4:08
What I'm saying, though, is I'm trying to lay out some facts
4:12
And the facts are that the UK draws people here. We've got to do our bit, our end
4:17
We cannot keep blaming Europe. And my main point about my phone call
4:21
is that I think that there is something deeply malicious behind this. I think there is some kind of thing that's been put out on social media
4:28
Clearly, there has to damage the EU and Europe. And this is a malicious effort
4:35
And people have died. But Joe, there was also arguments that Russia was also trying to destabilize Europe with migration flows as well via Belarus and others, right, as well
4:46
So there will always be potentially people who are trying to destabilize Europe. All I'm saying, and I'm not arguing against that particular point, I have no evidence one way or the other, that may or may not happen
4:56
All I'm saying is if you're a European leader, you jolly well better have measures in place to protect your borders
5:01
If you don't, you can't call yourself a country or a continent. Have you looked at the size of the coastline of Europe
5:11
I have looked at the size of the coastline. In this particular case, I've also looked at the length of the US-Mexican border
5:17
And what I've got here is a graph in front of me, which shows that in January 2018
5:22
what, it's probably about 40,000-odd people were coming in in the first Trump administration
5:26
And now, after a massive spike under Biden, there are zero people coming across the Mexican border
5:33
Why? Why? Because Trump has taken really, really, really stringent actions. Ali, would you really trust anything that came out of the Trump administration
5:43
Well, I would. They have done away with so many. They've doged everything to death
5:49
They've got rid of all the experts. They've got rid of all the statisticians
5:54
They've put in their own people. Do you really believe Trump, who lies every single time he opens his mouth
6:00
Joe, I'm not saying you need to believe him. All I'm saying is look at the actual results themselves
6:05
Now, look, before I let you go. I don't trust them. I'm not saying you should trust him
6:10
All I'm saying is that he's got physical infrastructure to protect the border
6:13
He's also... He hasn't. He has. He hasn't. No, he has. He has built
6:17
He has. Are you saying he hasn't built 458 miles of wall? Are you telling me nothing goes across the border
6:21
Are you telling me that the wall was built? 458 miles of it was built during the transverse term
6:27
He's also got military and national guard deployments. Did that actually happen or was that the propaganda
6:31
because I seem to remember that Steve Bannon got sent to prison for raising money for the border that wasn't built
6:38
for the border wall, and it wasn't built. He also has ICE agents that are vigorously clamping down
6:43
and deporting people as well. That is how you get to zero migration across the Mexican border
6:47
Joe, very good to speak to you. Dan in Southfields, good afternoon, Dan. Good afternoon, Ali
6:52
Listen, you said you don't have any evidence either way on this
6:57
And you don't have a lot of evidence for what you've just said other than information that's put out by Trump
7:02
So, in a way, you know, we do kind of pick our sources. But I think your previous caller absolutely nailed it
7:08
Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. What evidence do I not have about the Trump thing? You're saying he didn't build the wall
7:12
You're saying he didn't have military and National Guard deployments? You're saying it's not gone down to zero
7:16
What are you saying? You have a lot of evidence that Trump certainly
7:20
should we say, exaggerates the fact. No, no, no, no, no, no. But Dan, no, no, no
7:24
No, but hold on a second, Dan. No, no, before you go on, are you saying that it's not zero
7:30
crossings now, basically, across the Mexican border. Are you saying that that's a lie
7:34
I would have thought so, yes. Well, I would have thought it's not. I would have thought it's not
7:38
No no no because a lot of people a lot of people are downright scared about the tactics that he deployed They brutal They are unsightly They make us queasy particularly in this part of the world but they work
7:52
OK, well, listen, believe what you'd like to believe. I think your previous caller, what she also said is it's well known that Trump absolutely hates Spain
8:00
Unfortunately, he's in a really difficult position with Spain. I mean, there's no secret about that. You will have probably heard how he's spoken about about Spain
8:07
Yeah, yeah, I'm one of the way. But he can't do much about Spain
8:11
In fact, he has a trade deficit with Spain. So under his own rules, Spain should be applying tariffs to the US
8:19
But obviously, as the EU trades as a bloc, he has very little that he can do individually to hurt them inside of the system
8:27
But what he can do is to... I'm not saying that he's done this
8:32
All I'm saying is it's not outside of the realms of possibility
8:37
that there are bad actors in this who might put out stuff on Twitter
8:43
But Dan, I've said that I'm not saying that there aren't bad actors
8:47
be it whoever you want to believe. I mean, the Russians have been accused of doing this via Belarus to try and destabilise Europe
8:53
There'll be bad actors, right? Of all different types, including people smugglers. That doesn't absolve European leaders
8:59
from doing everything they can to protect their border. Absolutely. And that brings me to my second point, borders
9:04
Okay? So when we talk about borders, historically a border is a
9:08
line between two countries. Celta is a territory in the same way as the BVI
9:14
zone, the same way as Montserrat or Bermuda, right? If Bermuda was invaded yesterday, tomorrow
9:20
it would be very odd for us to start talking about the invasion
9:24
of the European border. No, but it is a sovereign part of Spain, and it is
9:31
next to, it is neighbouring Morocco. So it is a border. You're saying it's not a border
9:36
Morocco, but it's not a border with the EU. It's not a border with the EU, but the whole idea was that you get there and you're 25 miles away from Spain
9:44
But you're 25 miles away from Spain if you're in Morocco anyway. Just look at a map
9:49
So it's ridiculous to posit that people that get into Delta somehow have some easy journey
9:57
can just board a flight then and get into Europe. That's ridiculous. So, Dan, should we just all relax and chill out and take some LEMSIP, which I'm having right now
10:05
Not everyone should do that unless they've got a cold, by the way. You know what I mean. Go on. Ali, on this particular issue, yes
10:11
See sense. See that this has got nothing to do. So why is Maloney, why is Donald Tusk, who's like a pro-EU guy, right
10:17
EU to his core, to his DNA. Why do you think he's so exercised about this
10:21
Well, I can actually answer your first question better. Go on, Maloney. Well, Tusk is upset too
10:27
He said Spain must follow our example if Schengen is to survive. That's Donald Tusk. I mean, he's the EU's EU guy
10:33
It's ridiculous. Ali, it's ridiculous. So what, Donald Tusk is talking nonsense, is he, Dan
10:38
On this particular... Do you not think so? No, no. I mean, look, Donald Tusk
10:42
all I'm saying is Donald Tusk is an intelligent man, right? He was an EU leader, one of the main leaders of the EU
10:48
He's now Prime Minister of Poland, right? You can't say that Donald Tusk doesn't have the EU in his bones
10:54
Ali, you have your own mind. You don't need to defer to other people
10:59
You know enough about how the world works to understand what's going on here
11:03
you just join up the dots. But the reality is, if you honestly
11:08
see this as a biggest threat to the EU, then you clear, you know
11:14
you're not doing yourself a disservice. Okay, Dan, I'm not saying that I'm going to ridicule
11:22
different people's theories about who may or may not be behind these
11:26
things. All I'll say is this. I'll go on facts right 2015 one million Syrians and people from Iraq and other people let in by Angela Merkel Success or failure I mean I don know
11:41
It's hard to measure, right? It's not really hard to measure, no. It's not hard to measure at all. Well, you can measure the Spanish economy
11:46
The Spanish economy is fine. I'll tell you how we measure it, Dan
11:50
Just look at the rise in support of the AFD in Germany and tell me
11:54
that that was a success. Genuinely. These aren't simple, Ali. You know
11:58
These are not simple. The problem with all of these debates is it simplifies what is actually really difficult
12:03
You don't have to let one million people into your nation, Dan
12:07
You don't. You don't have to blame all of the problems. Of course you don't
12:11
Of course you don't. I agree with you 100 percent. But if you import a million people, you are going to make a rod for your own back and you are going to give a free leitmotif lightning rod to the far right to beat you with, which is exactly what's happening
12:26
Dan, very good to speak to you. Thank you. Pauline Marazine, good afternoon. Good afternoon, Ali
12:31
I'm probably one of the few people you'll speak to today who's actually been to Suta
12:35
and I've been through that border crossing where they all crashed through yesterday
12:41
travelling from Suta into Morocco. But I also lived down in southern Spain
12:47
a place called Sota Grande, for a couple of years. And I've sat in Sota Grande harbour years ago
12:53
when the police and the Guardia Civil used to take a top line
12:57
and they used to shoot the tubes of the ribs coming across from Morocco loaded with hashish
13:03
So it's not a secure border. The fact that there was half a million undocumented Moroccans in Spain
13:12
that have been regularised now tells you that it's not secure. Well, it is according to Lee. You should chill out
13:19
You just heard Lee with his nonsense that he was coming out with. Nonsense, Ali
13:24
most Moroccans can actually get a visa to go to Spain if you go to the ferry terminal at Algeciras
13:31
and see the ferries arriving from Tangier they're full of Moroccan people
13:35
they travel up through Spain and France and to Germany to work
13:41
there's hundreds of thousands of them on the roads in France with Moroccan registration cards
13:48
but the borders are all secure Paul just chill out I mean, there's no issue here
13:54
According to Frontex, there's no issue. It's nonsense. According to the British government's civil servants as well
14:03
who allow loads of people in, who are apparently all fleeing persecution and not economic migrants
14:07
there's no issue either, potentially. The funniest thing I saw was that the border force
14:11
have offered to give them assistance in securing their borders. That had me rolling on the floor. Indeed
14:18
Paul, go on. Just one thing, Ali. Yeah, the Strait of Gibraltar, at its narrowest point, is 12 miles wide
14:25
It's half the distance of Dover de Calais. Boats crisscross it daily
14:30
If you're a Moroccan and want to get into Spain, it's no great problem
14:34
It's a lot easier than actually crossing Dover de Calais. Well, maybe they shouldn't have bothered crossing into Suta then
14:41
We'll never know. Well, that's the other point I wanted to make for you. All these people saying it's been orchestrated by taking a pic from America, Russia or anybody
14:50
I think it was just the Moroccan government making a point to Spain. It might have been. It might have been
14:56
Because you look how they ferried all the people down to the border to crash through
15:00
Well, indeed, because Pedro Sanchez was meeting the head of the Algerian government
15:04
And we know that we know that there was an issue with that because they don't want their position on Western Sahara
15:10
The Algerians want an independence movement in Western Sahara. and Morocco don't want that
15:16
Morocco don't want that. They've taken one of the leaders of the popular front
15:20
to hospital in Spain. Yeah. Who Morocco took offence at. Indeed. Paul, thank you for your call
#news