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Simon Marks is stunned by housing minister Matthew Pennycook's insistence that 'nobody' in the UK would oppose building data centres (00:38).
Simon asks the Telegraph's James Titcomb (01:48) about the feeling in Britain, before giving a taster of how the 'political football' is being thrown around in America (04:29).
Simon also hears from LBC callers, who have their say on the topic (07:29).
Meanwhile, the government has been urged to pause the rapid rollout of AI data centres, as concerns mount over their energy and water usage amid claims local communities are being 'sidelined'.
The UK is seeing a surge in the number of AI data centres - power-hungry warehouses storing the servers, storage systems and networks that power AI systems such as ChatGPT.
They are much larger than older internet data centres and require huge amounts of fresh water, required to stop servers from overheating, and electricity to run.
There are thought to be around 500 data centres across the UK, with that number expected to increase by a fifth over the next five years, largely concentrated in London and the south east.
"Data centres aren't new," says Anisah Khan, a parliamentary campaigner at the environmental charity Global Action Plan.
But what has changed, she explains, is the rollout of energy-hungry "hyperscale" data centres, fuelled by an explosion in AI demand.
Just one of these facilities can devour 1.5 million litres of water a day, enough to supply a town of 10,000 people, according to Global Action Plan.
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0:00
I don't think anyone listening to this programme would say that as a country we should shut our ears and say no data centres
0:06
That is Housing Minister Matthew Pennycook making that declarative statement this morning at the end of his interview with Tom on Nick Ferrari at breakfast
0:15
I have to say it stuck out like an absolute sore thumb when I first heard it, but let's put it into its full context
0:23
You need to hear the whole thing. Here is Mr Pennycook's complete exchange with Tom, which came off the back of a conversation about the future of the country's water utilities, another very hot topic that we will discuss on another day
0:38
We'll be building data centres with the same vim and vigour that we want to build social housing
0:43
Well, we do need more data centres. We've ensured that through changes to national planning policy, they're given the appropriate prioritisation
0:51
People hate them, Mr Pennycook. They absolutely loathe them. Well, but people and businesses also rely on their output
0:58
So we've got to have the right amount. We've got a world-class AI sector
1:02
We need to support it. Obviously, the siting of individual data centres is a matter for the local authorities to take a view on
1:09
in line with national and local planning policy. I'm not going to sit here and specify where they should go
1:15
And they do come, I'll be very clear with you, do come with a range of challenges in terms of water usage, energy usage
1:19
We've got to plan appropriately for that. I don't think anyone listening to this programme would say that as a country we should shut our ears and say no data centres
1:27
Is he right? This is going to be a massive political issue
1:31
It already is in other parts of the world. How do you see the government navigating all of this
1:39
Because they are going to be under tremendous pressure and they clearly desire the idea of building data centres to support the AI economy
1:47
There's real tension here between local communities who I've been to lots of them. I've spoken to lots of campaigners who are seeing data centers pop up or plans pop up. Almost all of them are 100 percent against them
2:03
And that is really hard to reconcile with this message that they are bringing tens of billions of pounds of growth, all these thousands of construction jobs and all the taxes that they are going to pay
2:15
But I think if you're a local community, it is really hard to see that benefit right there
2:22
And the way that the government has navigated it so far is really just to insist that we need these things for AI, to insist that AI is going to be great for the economy
2:33
I think that's another big part of this story is that AI so far is very unpopular
2:39
People see their jobs going away, possibly. people see a lot of disinformation and other problems and they wonder why we need all these
2:48
what the ultimate benefit is. So what do you think the Andy Burnham government needs to do
2:52
if they genuinely want to see these things being built all over the country as an essential part
2:59
of a forward-looking economy? Yeah, I mean, I think there are little things that they're doing
3:06
It's quite hard to make data centers popular. They are ugly. They are noisy. It's hard to get around that
3:14
I think the government is trying to ensure that they're in places possibly where there's a bit less of a local impact
3:19
There's this initiative called AI Growth Zones where they're trying to place them in parts of the country that are maybe going to be less affected
3:28
But I think, you know, there are people everywhere. And wherever you go, there's going to be opposition to these things
3:35
So I think there are initiatives such as potentially giving more tax revenue to the local authorities, giving an actual reason why you just want to support this
3:45
At the moment, there isn't really one. Why should you have it in your backyard
3:50
Do you see this becoming fruit for a very, very vigorous political conversation over the course of the next few years
3:58
Yeah there very little doubt this is going to become a big political issue I think you only got to look at the US where these have been built much more quickly and much bigger than we seen in the UK so far
4:10
And in the US, some people think that they account for about a third of the whole country's economic growth
4:17
This is going to be a big topic in the elections coming up in the US later this year
4:24
and it's almost certainly starting to become a political issue here. Erin in Dudley has said
4:30
I don't recognise this enthusiasm for data centres. I'm certainly staunchly against them
4:36
This enthusiasm must be local to Mr Pennycook. As such, build them all in his constituency, Greenwich and Woolwich
4:45
Paul has texted in to say, Simon, look at what's happening in the US
4:50
There is no return on investment for data centres, so they are trying to integrate them with the military and education
4:57
Well, I tell you what, we are going to look at what's happening with data centres in the US
5:01
and how they are becoming a major political football. This is now an issue that actually transcends the two-party political divide
5:12
71% of Americans tell pollsters they oppose the construction of data centres in their neighbourhoods
5:20
and politicians there are listening. What has happened is the scale of projects
5:25
That's Cathy Hochul, the governor of New York, a Democrat who became the first of America's 50 governors
5:31
to announce a moratorium on the construction of data centres across New York earlier this year
5:39
These companies have decided that they would sort of flood the zone
5:43
All over America, they're putting in more and more applications, you know, taxing local resources in terms of, you know
5:49
small towns in particular that have to go through the review process. Why don't we step back and let the state take control here
5:55
So that's what she did. She says there will be no data centres on her watch
5:59
unless the companies that want to build them present cast-iron plans to compensate New Yorkers for the costs that will be passed on to consumers
6:10
in the form of higher energy prices, more restricted access to water supplies, and so on
6:15
Republicans are also increasingly, some of them, coming out as being anti-data centres
6:22
In Wyoming, the Republican Party there endorsed a candidate for the governor's mansion who opposes them
6:29
And in Ohio, Senator Sherrod Brown, a prominent Democrat seeking re-election in November
6:36
is attacking his Republican opponent for backing data centres. Take a listen to this
6:42
Why are there 226 data centers in Ohio, fifth most of any state
6:48
John Husted, that's why. Husted is a chief reason Ohio has so many data centers
6:53
He force-fed the massive energy-sucking facilities on the state. Giving corporations over $2.5 billion in out-of-control tax breaks
7:02
and causing electric bills to spike by thousands of dollars. A total scam on the people of Ohio
7:09
I'm Sherrod Brown, and I approve this message. I'll bet he did approve that message because he hopes it's going to help him cruise to re-election in November
7:17
Data centres, a sizzling hot political issue in America today. I suspect a sizzling hot political issue here in the UK tomorrow
7:29
So I'm an ecologist for work. So in terms of the environmental factors, I would generally say that I'm anti-AI
7:36
and I'm really, really nervous about all of these data centres being built. And I have to comprehend that it might come to a point where the consultancy I work for gets quoted to survey this land that is going to be destroyed for data centres
7:51
And besides the fact of nature, and I know there's big debates about, you know, stopping work for delaying work for species and things, I could talk about that for hours
8:01
But I think that having seen the released maps about where all of these data centres are going to be built I would love to see a map comparing that to if generative AI was taken out of public hands and was licensed by the government
8:18
You mean taken out of private hands? Well, I mean, well, because generative AI, you know, like you can use chat GBC and people across the UK and the world are using it for, you know, artists' work are being stolen
8:31
and I've got loads of friends who are artists and academics who are panicking because, you know
8:35
they're basically being stolen from in broad daylight and there's nothing they can do about it
8:40
But if generative AI was taken out of the public hand, so that didn't exist anymore, and you..
8:46
Oh, I see. If it just wasn't available, if you shut ChatGPT off
8:50
Yes, I see what you're saying. I recognise that AI is a really useful tool
8:54
for people who are trained and educated and acknowledge when it's an appropriate time to use it
8:59
But I think so many people now are concerned about, you know, people losing their ability to do proper research or be creative and all of these things
9:07
I think we're going to lose really important foundations and components to our humanity over this
9:12
And if the government said to businesses, you need to submit evidence to why your company needs to use AI and what for
9:21
they can give companies and businesses a license, which allows them to use it
9:26
and I just wonder, like, I think that's completely fair, but I'd just like to see a comparison to see, like
9:32
how many data centres would be built if that was the case and the general public couldn't use it
9:36
I mean, that's a really interesting point and it's a fascinating thought, Annie
9:40
but the reality is there is no chance the government's going to wander down that path
9:45
No, I know. Is there? None at all. Well, I don't know. I think maybe they'd be on board with it
9:51
if it was, you know, something you have to pay for. For example, like, going back to my job
9:56
I have a license for working with Great Crested Mutes that I have to pay about £80 a year for
10:01
If they have made businesses pay to use AI to improve productivity, etc., etc.
10:07
then maybe there'd be allowances for things like the NHS where they don't have to pay
10:11
because obviously that's our national health, that's super important and everything. But I think, you know, I don't see a problem..
10:17
But, Annie, I mean, they haven't even regulated the social media companies
10:22
I mean, there's no chart. The train is running, it's hurtling down the tracks
10:27
I know. It's definitely not something that is an instant fix. And I think myself and I've got friends and family who are really angry that this
10:35
it seems like very little research was done by these big companies that just released it, you know
10:39
And they didn't think, there doesn't seem to be any research on how they're going to build these data centres sustainably
10:44
or, you know, how they're going to make sure it impacts the environment as little as possible
10:49
It's just put them up, put them up, put them up. And can I ask you, when you hear a government minister saying that he doesn't think there's anyone out there listening to LBC, as he was talking to LBC this morning, who thinks we ought to be shutting the doors on data centres
11:05
I mean, my switchboard here and my text feed is filled with people who definitely think we ought to be shutting the door on data centres
11:14
There's a huge gulf here, right? Definitely. I mean, if I'm going to take a dark turn with it even
11:19
you know, I go to site and I'm looking at all these environments that are already, frankly, decimated for the heat waves
11:26
that are meant to be protected. And there's just nothing there anymore and it's barren
11:30
But, you know, a data centre is going to be put here
11:33
to allow, what, thousands of men across the world and the country to make non-consensual images of women and children
11:39
Like, it just makes me sick to my stomach that that's where our nature is being wasted and our water, our survival, essentially, it's just completely wasted
11:48
It's really depressing. Whatever people out there might want or might not want in terms of data centres
11:55
this technology is hurtling down the tracks. It is too late to stop it, even if you wanted to, isn't it
12:03
Yeah, no, absolutely. And I understand the concerns rightly so over water and power We haven got to you know charge up a handful of cars in this country We haven built a reservoir since the 60s So I would be looking
12:20
to say to the data centre owners, look, the Ministry of Defence has hundreds of thousands
12:26
of acres of land in very remote places. There's always water, I know, because I've traipsed through
12:31
it. Why not, you know, why not? You build your data centre here, but you build a de-cell
12:37
plan. Yes. We haven't got any in this country. Oh, and by the way, you also put in solar panels
12:43
Yes. And you create an ecosystem that's self-supporting. But I'm afraid I'm right there
12:49
with you. The security and safety of this country is reliant on the data that's held within those
12:55
data centres. End of. Hugh, thanks very much indeed for calling in. Stay listening because I'm going
13:01
to tell you about some of the measures that are being taken in the United States to push back
13:06
on the issue of data centres and to lay down some markers for their construction
13:13
We'll get to that in just a second, but let's go to Judy in Belsice Park next. Afternoon, Judy
13:17
Good afternoon. I don't know if I'm particularly stupid. I know I've heard about artificial intelligence, but what is a data centre
13:28
I have no idea what it is. I may be the only listener that's that stupid, but I genuinely do not know what is a data centre
13:37
Well, I don't think you are really stupid, Judy. And I'm sure there are lots of listeners out there that are saying to themselves, what is a data centre
13:45
And the fact that there are people out there that don't yet know what this is all about
13:49
the construction of these enormously powerful energy-consuming centers that are going to power artificial intelligence
14:00
They're going to power the large language models that many people are already commercially using
14:08
whether it's simply to conduct a more advanced sort of version of an internet search
14:14
or whether you're building tools for your business using artificial intelligence or as Hugh was suggesting, you're engaged in military planning
14:25
and using artificial intelligence for that. It all requires monumental amounts of power
14:32
This data centre that's being planned for that village north of Edinburgh is going to be larger than the village itself
14:41
It's going to be 35 metres high with an area larger than 100 football pitches
14:48
One of the tech behemoths in the United States, I think it's Meta
14:52
wants to build a data centre that is going to be larger than the island of Manhattan
14:59
I mean, these things are absolutely vast and they lie at the heart of powering artificial intelligence
15:06
intelligence and you know people out there need to know this is coming because it's going to be a
15:11
huge issue politically and it's going to have a huge impact on energy bills and water bills and
15:18
water availability because they all consume so much energy in order to power this ai industry
15:25
so i'm sorry is this like some kind of enormous electric meter yes exactly that it's exactly like
15:33
an enormous electricity substation. Ah, okay. But, like, on a vast scale
15:39
Right. Okay. I'm sorry. No, I mean, it's interesting to me. I'm glad that you called
15:46
because I think that there are lots of people out there that don't understand the implications of all of this
15:52
because it's going to affect you, right? I mean, it's going to affect you in terms of whatever you might do on the computer
15:59
but it's also going to affect your household bills. but the whole thing is rubbish why don't we just use people why are we using artificial
16:08
intelligence judy i think that's a very valuable point that you're making i'm afraid the genie
16:14
may be out of the bottle
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