Up next in 10
Could Donald Trump's changing approach to Russia and Ukraine threaten the future of NATO?
LBC Washington Correspondent Simon Marks joins Vanessa Feltz to examine whether Trump's actions form part of a broader strategy to 'collapse NATO' and question whether the US President would come to the defence of another NATO member in the event of an attack.
Callers then join Vanessa and Simon in the debate.
00:00 | Simon Marks on Trump, Putin and Ukraine
10:28 | Elon Musk, Starlink and Ukraine
13:25 | Dave asks: 'Should the US remain in NATO?'
18:12 | Mohammed wonders if Trump is preventing World War Three
21:29 | John: Is the West 'in love with Ukraine'?
24:57 | Michael calls for Europe to stand up to Putin
28:21 | Matt: Should Britain cut ties with Trump?
31:37 | Seamus says Europe must 'survive Trump'
Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp
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0:00
What do you want from our Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary? I'm absolutely delighted
0:03
that LBC's distinguished and sagacious US correspondent, Simon Marks, joins me live in
0:08
the studio. Simon, let me ask you this. Is there a simple explanation for Donald Trump's volatile
0:14
about turn? And is it simply plunging popularity in the midterm elections happening at the same time
0:20
Well, Vanessa, it's lovely to see you. Distinguished and sagacious, I have definitely been called worse and will be again, I have no doubt. Look, Donald Trump, when he says that
0:32
Volodymyr Zelensky is the problem, that it's much easier to deal with Vladimir Putin. Well
0:37
of course it is, because Vladimir Putin says, we can stop this war tomorrow if Zelensky will give
0:43
me 30% of his territory. And Zelensky is the problem because Zelensky says, I'm sorry, I'm not
0:48
giving you 30% of your territory. I'm my territory. I'm not giving you eastern Ukraine. I'm not giving
0:52
you Crimea. And so that's why Donald Trump takes the view that Volodymyr Zelensky is a problem
1:00
because Donald Trump wants to be in a situation where this diesel deal that he agreed, based on
1:07
a single phone call with Vladimir Putin last Friday, a phone call that was taking place without
1:13
the knowledge of some of his senior cabinet members, is for Donald Trump the thin end of what
1:20
he hopes will become a very thick wedge. And that thick wedge is doing as much American business
1:27
with Russia as possible. He wants to normalise, go back to a situation where American business is
1:32
back in Russia, investing again, despite the fact, of course, that many leading captains of
1:38
industry and finance in the United States won't touch Russia with a barge pole because they've
1:43
already been through that particular mill under Vladimir Putin. And in the case, for example
1:47
of some of the oil companies, have had their assets expropriated by the Russians in the past
1:52
But Trump wants to do business on a grand scale with Vladimir Putin. And I don't know if you saw
1:58
the interview that Tucker Carlson recorded with Jacob Rees-Mogg a couple of weeks ago, where Jacob
2:05
Rees-Mogg sort of realises, I think they may, these two men, have gone into the interview thinking
2:09
that they were sort of political soulmates. And Jacob Rees-Mogg realised very rapidly that that
2:14
was not the case. And at one point, Tucker Carlson is arguing that the UK shouldn't be worried about
2:20
why is the UK worried about Russia potentially engaging in some kind of an attack on the UK
2:26
Does the UK not realise that Russia is a much larger economy than Britain's? And Rees-Mogg
2:32
intervenes and says, wait a second, Russia is not a larger economy than Britain's. It's a much
2:37
smaller economy than Britain's. And Carlson finds it quite difficult to understand that
2:44
because Carlson, I think, thinks the same way that Donald Trump does. It's a vast country
2:49
A huge country, therefore a huge economy. It's got all of these resources, all of this wealth, even though vast amounts of it are
2:55
untapped, I want in there. And so I thought that that Carlson interview with Jacob Rees-Mogg
3:02
was sort of an insight into the mind of Donald Trump when it comes to Russia
3:08
He wants the minerals. He wants the rare earths. He wants the oil. He wants the gas
3:15
And Zelensky is a problem. He's an irritant. This Ukrainian, what's Ukraine got for us, you know
3:22
compared to what we could be getting out of Russia? So that's one aspect of it
3:26
And the other aspect of it, of course, is that Donald Trump wants to be seen as a big man on the world stage
3:32
and the other big men on the world stage of Vladimir Putin and their president Xi Jinping of China
3:38
And even though he's obviously presiding over a small country, Kim Jong-un of North Korea
3:43
he likes these big authoritarian leaders and he wants to be one of them
3:51
And so he wants a seat at the table. He's invited Vladimir Putin to come to the G20 summit
3:56
which Donald Trump is going to be hosting at his own golf club in Doral, Florida
4:01
You will read an awful lot in the next couple of months about the G20 summit in Miami, because that's what the Americans are calling it
4:08
It's not taking place in Miami. It's taking place on the outskirts of Miami in Doral at Donald Trump's personal golf club
4:16
Why are they calling it Miami? So they don't have to keep mentioning the golf club? Yeah, absolutely. It's all designed to intimate that this thing's happening in this major American city
4:24
And of course, there will be some events taking place in Miami city limits. But the meat and potatoes of this and the accommodation for many of the international delegates arriving, leaders and their staff will be at the president's personal golf club, which raises huge conflict of interest questions to begin with
4:43
How do we know that British taxpayer money is not somehow going to flow into Donald Trump's business coffers as a result of Andy Burnham attending this G20 summit
4:54
But he's invited Vladimir Putin to it. The Russians at the moment are not indicating that Vladimir Putin is going to attend
5:00
But they haven't, I think, formally rejected the invitation because Donald Trump wants to be the man who brings him back around the table
5:07
He wants him back in the G7. So this is a breaking point with Europe
5:13
You know, the idea that Andy Burnham is going to be able to repair bridges between Washington and Kiev this time around, I think is going to be incredibly difficult because we've moved into a new phase of Donald Trump's presidency, even before the midterm election results are in
5:31
And it is a phase in which he is going to go hell for leather in achieving every remaining objective that he's got in his remaining two years
5:39
And was it 27 months, 26 months left in office? And one of those objectives is to see Ukraine dismembered and peace with Russia resolved so that he can get on and strike business deals in Russia
5:51
And it's a period with no comparison in terms of his unpopularity and the plunging level of his popularity
5:57
Is that correct, sir? Yes. I mean, 36 percent approval rating in some polls, a little bit lower in others
6:03
It is absolutely evident that the midterm elections are going to be disastrous for the Republicans
6:08
they will, 99.9% certain, to lose control of the House of Representatives
6:13
And there is growing evidence to suggest that they may lose control of the Senate
6:18
Fox News had a poll out this week that showed how bad things were
6:22
And one of the more interesting aspects of it was buried in the detail, because this is the first poll to have shown
6:28
that the number one concern among voters in America is now not the economy
6:35
it's not the war on Iran, It's not the price of petrol at the pumps. It's corruption in government. 88% of Americans responding to that Fox News poll said corruption in government was their number one concern
6:50
And this is coming, of course, at a time when Donald Trump's own financial disclosure forms have revealed that in the 27 months since he returned to office, sorry, the 20, what are we, 22 months, 21 months since he returned to office, his personal wealth has swelled by $2.2 billion
7:10
and that's the money that he's reporting on the financial disclosure forms
7:15
We know that his family is coining it by engaging in business deals all over the world
7:20
at a time when one of his special envoys, Jared Kushner, his son-in-law
7:24
is also running his own business and trying to strike business deals
7:28
in many of the places where he, Mr Kushner, finds himself negotiating and mediating
7:34
Now, you can also argue that some Republicans say that they're worried about corruption in state government
7:39
where Democrats are running individual states. But the idea that corruption in government
7:45
is now the number one issue of concern to American voters suggests that this is going to be a massively problematic
7:53
midterm election cycle for Donald Trump. And his behaviour on a whole array of different issues
7:59
over the last couple of weeks suggests that he knows it and he's moving into a different gear already
8:05
So many questions about his right or ability or freedom to make these kinds of decisions
8:12
and make these sorts of calls and form these kinds of alliances and hold sanctions that have been enshrined in law
8:18
And in my intro, I said, you know, American lawmakers are up in arms. But what are the sanctions against President Trump
8:24
Is it law-breaking? I mean, what kind of autonomy is he meant to have
8:28
That is exactly the question, right? So he has exempted Russia from a Russian sanctions bill I mean if you exempt Russia from this Russian sanctions and Russian diesel there not a heck of a lot left in the legislation And I think it really important to underscore We
8:47
talked a lot on LBC in the last few days about the extent to which Donald Trump has betrayed
8:51
Volodymyr Zelensky. Zelensky has accused Trump of betrayal. He's also betrayed many of his fellow
8:57
Republicans because that sanctions bill was the initiative of the late Senator Lindsey Graham of
9:04
South Carolina, a very influential foreign policy voice in Donald Trump's ear. And boy
9:09
are we now seeing how influential he was because he's since passed away. He came back from Kiev
9:15
his last mission to Kiev in the middle of July. He came back, died shortly thereafter. But in his
9:20
last public pronouncement, he said that he had secured White House and presidential support for
9:26
this Russian sanctions bill. It was designed to choke the Russian economy further, make sure that
9:32
anybody that was propping up, in his words, Vladimir Putin, was going to be themselves
9:37
sanctioned and punished. And he specifically cited countries that were purchasing Russian energy
9:44
What's Donald Trump done in the last week? He struck a deal to buy Russian diesel
9:50
a breach of sanctions law. So he's now adjusted that. You know, he's now said, OK, well
9:57
we're carving Russia out of this if you want me to sign it. Republicans in Congress are outraged
10:02
they are all saying that this money from the United States to Russia
10:06
is going to finance the Russian war machine. Trump won't answer the question as to whether any arrangements
10:13
are going to be made to prevent that from happening. And so it's his fellow Republicans that are trying to head him off at the pass
10:19
and are saying they want to pass legislation further to try and tie his hands
10:24
I wish you could see Simon Marks. His eyes are virtually rolling around in his head
10:28
He couldn't emphasise it more, could he really? He's bringing much energy and credulity and utter horror
10:34
What a time to be alive. I think the word is aghast. He's aghast. It's at least one of the words
10:39
The headline, Telegraph, front page today, Musk approached Trump to slow Starlink across Ukraine
10:44
What the heck is going on there? Well, it certainly makes sense that that is possibly the case
10:49
Elon Musk, of course, denied it. We should explain that what we're actually talking about here
10:53
is something called Star Shield, which is the military-grade version of Starlink
10:58
and the Ukrainians use it in large measure to control drones and weapon systems
11:04
And if you start choking it back, you obviously have less control
11:08
And at times they have said they have had no control over some of the weaponry
11:12
Separately from that, there's also the issue of intelligence sharing by the United States with the Ukrainians
11:17
which definitely, according to Zelensky, has been reduced. Elon Musk has said Star Shield is owned and controlled
11:27
Those units are all owned and controlled by the US government. I have no capacity, says Elon Musk, to choke them
11:34
Now there is reporting in The Telegraph that suggests that Elon Musk may at least have suggested to Donald Trump at the White House that he ought to think about doing this
11:46
And that's certainly consistent with Musk's worldview. Like Donald Trump, he has parroted the Kremlin's talking points on Ukraine
11:54
He says that Zelensky must hold a fresh election. They both keep suggesting that Zelensky is illegitimate in government
12:01
Of course, the Ukrainians say it's completely impossible to hold an election in their country at a time when every single day it is being bombarded by the Russians
12:08
He has embraced Elon Musk, Donald Trump's revisionist argument that it is Ukraine attacking Russian oil refineries that has caused the increase in the price of petrol and diesel in the United States
12:21
not the much more consequential matter of Donald Trump's war on Iran and the blockade of the Strait of Hormuz
12:30
So, I mean, look, I think this underscores the fact that Elon Musk is an enormously powerful man
12:34
whose technology is the difference this week in life or death for some Ukrainian civilians
12:42
And what we've witnessed over the last few days with the throttling of the intelligence sharing
12:48
and the throttling, whoever was behind it, of their access to Starshield
12:54
means that there is now Ukrainian blood on American hands. Those civilian deaths that occurred this week
13:02
the Ukrainians will argue, absolutely can be tied to decisions that were made in Washington
13:08
And that's a staggering place. Staggering, and that's why Boris Johnson is saying we need a Western plan
13:13
So, lovely listener, this is over to you. What should the Western plan be? What should be happening
13:17
because obviously it can't be right to sit tight and watch this unfolding
13:22
It's absolutely appalling. All right, let's go to Dave in Liverpool. Dave, you're on to me, but you're also on to Simon Marks
13:27
which is lucky for you. Hello. Yeah, fantastic. Simon is a brilliant reporter
13:32
I know. Thank you, Dave. I'm honoured to have him here. Thank you very much. So what's your response to this
13:37
Are you horrified? I am horrified and disgusted. I can't see how the USA can possibly remain in NATO after what's happened here, because, you know, this action by Trump has emboldened Putin and Russia into upping the attacks on Ukraine and also possibly upping attacks on the rest of Europe
14:05
you know he's been virtually given the green light um you know it's absolutely outrageous
14:12
um you know and what makes me really angry is you see the the cost of living that we're now
14:19
uh suffering in the uk i filled up the car five minutes ago just talking about that in the break
14:25
you may well have heard us doing it how much is it what kind of car and how much did it cost you
14:30
It's an old Renault Clio, but it's £1.77 for a litre. Yeah, so how much was the tank full
14:37
I can't fill the tank up. I'm putting £10 at a time in the car, you know
14:44
OK. I mean, it's madness. And to blame Zelensky, to save his own skin, Trump's own skin
14:51
this man is a schemer. He'd sell his own mother if she was still alive
14:56
you know I think we've got to say to America we're sick of this we need to tell them the truth
15:03
if we have to lose USA in NATO well so be it and Europe needs to strengthen itself
15:10
Simon is that is that is that a possibility probably not a probability but could could that
15:15
happen look I think Dave has put his finger on a number of different issues I mean first of all
15:19
with regard to NATO I think that things have now moved to a point where it is not going to be
15:25
possible for European leaders or even the NATO Secretary General Mark Rutter, the ultimate Trump
15:30
whisperer, to drag Donald Trump back from the position in which he has now placed himself
15:36
And I think that this is almost certainly part of a broader strategy essentially to collapse NATO
15:44
The Americans have already been demanding that their NATO allies, including the UK
15:50
fill out questionnaires that explain the extent to which each member state of NATO
15:58
is aligned or not aligned with Donald Trump's policy viewpoints. And this is all part and parcel of a six-month review of the American troop presence in Europe
16:10
that is being conducted at the Pentagon by Secretary of Defence, or as he calls himself Secretary of War, and Donald Trump calls him Pete Hegseth
16:17
The point at which you are openly siding with Vladimir Putin against Volodymyr Zelensky is the point at which the NATO alliance, in all meaningful terms, ceases to retain its current sort of structures
16:35
And if we all wake up tomorrow, as we could, and find that Russia has committed some kind of a hybrid attack that takes the lives of civilians in a NATO country, and this is what is so animating the polls, for example, at the moment and also the Baltic states
16:53
Is Donald Trump going to be there for NATO if NATO's other members decide that it's time to go Article 5, you know, the mutual defense covenants that lie at the heart of the NATO charter
17:05
I think that is now very, very much in doubt. I mean, more broadly on the issue that Dave identifies about the impact of the war on Iran, because it is the war on Iran mostly that is impacting the economy here in the UK
17:19
I think it is amazing that there is still as far as we know a hesitation to speak truth to power to Washington
17:29
I mean, we saw West Streeting meeting Pete Hegseth this week at the Pentagon for the first time as Defence Secretary
17:35
Lots of talk about the importance of the bilateral relationship and the abiding nature of the transatlantic alliance
17:41
But, you know, at some point you've surely got to walk into the Oval Office if you are Andy Burnham or Emmanuel Macron or Friedrich Mertz or Georgia Maloney and say, Mr. President, you are destroying our economies
17:57
And we now have a list of demands for you. And the prime one among them is you've got to wrap the conflict with Iran up
18:07
I've got so much to ask you, but I think we should let Mohammed and Ealing have a bash at this, don't you
18:11
Mohammed, why don't you speak? It's good to have you on the show. Simon Marks is here and a gog
18:17
Hi, Vanessa. It's always a pleasure coming on your wonderful show. Thank you, my love
18:21
I think, you know, we are in really, really dangerous, you know, times in the world
18:27
And what I don't agree with most things President Trump is doing, but what he's, I believe, is avoiding an inevitable war between Russia and Europe
18:37
As the head of the British Army yesterday said, Sir Roary Walker, you know, that politicians will soon have to have frank conversations with the general public and prepare us for war and sacrifices
18:50
We, the general public, don't want that. We don't want war in this day and age, in the 21st century
18:56
And what President Trump is doing is trying to bring Putin in so we can avoid that
19:02
But, Mohamed, he's trying to do it at the cost of dismembering Ukraine of 30% of its territory
19:08
I understand that, you know. If it comes down to whether to save the world and millions of people, 30% of Ukraine territory, I'm sorry, you know, if it has to go, it has to go
19:19
But let me play devil's advocate, Mohamed. why do you believe that Vladimir Putin
19:26
who would be enormously emboldened by securing Russian sovereignty over Crimea and eastern Ukraine
19:33
why would he stop there? Well, I think, you know, Vladimir Putin is another issue
19:40
you know, that we have to face. May I ask something? How would you feel, Mohamed, if it were Manchester, Liverpool and Carlisle, for example, or Newcastle
19:47
I would feel absolutely furious and I would do anything to defend the cities, you know
19:51
as a British national. But what I've got to say is, you know, we are heading for war with Russia
19:57
Russia every single day is testing the resolve of NATO. And President Trump sees that, hence why the CIA director made a visit to Moscow recently
20:07
And we don't want that. The public don't want that in the UK or wider Europe or the world
20:11
And President Trump, you know, I don't agree with him in most things, is doing a great job in avoiding that
20:17
If he's doing bad in Iran, he's avoiding us from World War III, whether we like it or not
20:22
Mohammed, thank you. I just want to, do you see any kind of, any accuracy at all in what Mohammed is saying
20:28
I'll tell you what I think is really important about what Mohammed said there, which is that if you look at what the head of the army said yesterday
20:33
about the need for a national conversation in this country about defence, that is something that several of the people that were involved in the strategic defence review
20:43
under Keir Starmer's government were directly telling John Healy when he was Minister of Defence and Keir Starmer at Number 10
20:52
that you've got to begin a national conversation because you can't suddenly find yourself in a situation
20:59
where the British public is expected to accept that we have to get involved in some kind of a conflict
21:05
that we're spending loads of additional money on new gear for the army
21:11
You can't do that without the national conversation. And that's been delayed already by two years as a result of Keir Starmer not beginning that national conversation
21:22
As the army chief was saying yesterday, you know, Andy Burnham really needs to start that conversation
21:29
It's hugely important. John's on the line in France. John, hello. Vanessa, how nice to speak to you
21:36
Very nice to speak to you. Thank you for taking my call. What do you think? What are you thinking? What are you worrying about at this point
21:41
Well, I want to put a completely opposing view forward. Go on
21:46
OK, I think the West is kind of in romantic love with Ukraine
21:52
And what I mean by that is, as you know, romantic love
21:57
You look at your partner, you don't see any negatives, you don't see any blemishes
22:02
you don't see any warts, you don't see any deformities. OK, what are the blemishes? You better get that out of it
22:07
What are Ukraine's faults, blemishes, warts and the noise that Ukraine makes eating soup
22:12
Tell me. Thank you, but I want to finish my point. I think we get the point because you've got to move on because we've got loads of calls
22:18
No, you don't get the point. That we're in romantic love with Ukraine and we see no faults
22:23
Yeah, I get that bit. Listen, I think that there was a solution on the table right at the beginning of this
22:30
And that was that Ukraine would remain neutral. and that they would, in that way, everybody would win
22:40
Ukraine would win because they wouldn't have to spend half their national product on military spending
22:48
There would be 100,000, maybe 200,000 people still alive and there would have been a perfect solution
22:55
a neutral Ukraine as a buffer between Russia and the EU. And I think that we are only going into this military solution because it's the only way that the UK, sorry, the EU will get economic growth
23:13
We're being told all the time. OK, let me stop you there and let's get a reaction from Simon
23:17
Well, I don't think it's on the romantic love with Ukraine. I think that we in the West are not only aware of, but have intervened on numerous occasions in the past regarding corruption in Ukraine
23:32
So I don't think that there is denial about what has been a very, very persistent issue among successive governments in Ukraine with regards to corruption and the disappearance of aid money
23:45
And now, of course, questions about many of the millions of dollars that have headed into Ukraine and precisely how that money has been spent
23:53
So I don't think there's denial about that. I think that what the West is in love with is the notion that Ukraine, like any other country, is a sovereign nation
24:02
And Ukraine has the right to make its own decisions about what sort of foreign policy it wants to have and to do so in an environment where it's not on the receiving end of Vladimir Putin's war of aggression
24:16
which has obviously devastated hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of thousands of families in Russia
24:24
who have lost loved ones serving in this battle against Ukraine. And so, you know, the notion that outside forces are in a position to say to Ukraine
24:32
right, you now must be a neutral nation. Well, I mean, just as it would be up to us to decide what we wanted to do
24:40
whether we wanted to be a member of the European Union, for example, or not, equally Ukraine as a sovereign nation
24:46
surely has that right to make its determination as well. John, thank you. Au revoir. Let's go to Michael
24:50
in Sunderland. Hello, Michael. Hi, Vanessa. I think a lot of you people want to get yourself on YouTube
24:56
and do a bit of history, what happened to Russia and Hitler, right? Because you're
25:02
exactly the same happening if you're on about, I'm going back 80 years ago, obviously
25:06
but it's apparent with what's happening now. Finland, Poland were all carved up
25:12
before anything happened, and I think that's what Trump is doing with Putin
25:16
right? But Trump is a little bit like Stalin, where he's thinking, oh no, but we've
25:22
got a deal. He doesn't think Putin is clever in the name, and he's going to
25:25
turn his back on them. Because I tell you what, all the rest of Europe should get
25:30
together now, stand up to America, and we're not all going to put the money in
25:34
We didn't have the money for the Second World War. It was Neville Chamberlain's piece of my time
25:38
and all that rubbish. We have got to stand up for ourselves, because I tell you what
25:42
give five, ten years' time, what do you think Putin's going to do? He's going to run that country until he's dead
25:47
I'm going to book my grandson. I'm 60 years old. I've been wanting to book 25 years of my life
25:52
My grandson's only six. Now, all these people want to have a history lesson
25:55
about what will happen if we don't stand up to Putin now. And the previous expert who was on I would have all the EU countries NATO in Ukraine have all in there for this exercise Well that sounds like what Boris Johnson calling for today
26:11
in his column, where he says we need a Western solution. That sounds like what you're offering
26:15
at least a plan for a Western solution. Simon Marks, what do you make of what
26:19
Michael's just said? Well, look, I mean, I think that Donald Trump definitely wants
26:23
to be a president of the United States who expands America's territory. He's not joking
26:29
when he says he wants Canada to be the 51st state. He wasn't joking when he said he wanted Greenland
26:35
to come under US auspices, and indeed he claims that the agreement
26:39
that has now been struck over Greenland basically guarantees American involvement in Greenland's affairs in perpetuity
26:48
He admires past presidents who have expanded America's frontiers and added to its territory
26:55
particularly in what he refers to as its primacy in the Western Hemisphere
26:59
So in that sense, he's all about splitting the world up. You know, I mean, you could see a certain sort of circumstances
27:07
in which he says, I'll take Canada and the Chinese can take Taiwan or I'll have Greenland and, you know, and so on and so forth
27:13
So, I mean, I think that's where Donald Trump's mind is in all of this
27:20
And, you know, yes, Europe is going to have to decide how it is going
27:26
what degree of commitment it is prepared to make to Ukraine in an environment in which the United States is bailing on Zelensky
27:34
and adhering itself to Putin. But we also have to bear in mind that by the middle of next year
27:40
Marine Le Pen may well be the president of France. She says she's going to cut all aid for Ukraine
27:45
within six months of coming into office. The AFD are making huge inroads in Germany
27:51
Georgia Maloney in Italy's got a problem on her far right. You know, where we sit today, October 2026, may not be where we find ourselves in terms of our relationship with European governments in just a matter of, you know, six, eight, nine months time
28:08
So, you know, the opportunity to make any decision today exists. But you've also got to be mindful of the fact that there could be huge political change in Paris, in Berlin, in Rome and in other capitals
28:20
that leads to a very, very different series of conversations. Let's go to Matt in Brighton, who's on the line
28:26
Matt, hello, good afternoon to you. Oh, hi, Finn. It's very good to talk to you
28:30
I hope you're well. Thank you, I'm fine. Tell me your thoughts on Putin and Trump, or the other way around
28:36
Well, Trump, oh, God, I'm sick of hearing about him. Seriously, I just had to Google it
28:41
I just said to your researcher, who the heck voted for him
28:45
His polls ratings are down. and you know he's getting to a certain age where he needs to move to one side I think and retire
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but he's causing a lot of problems for Nessa for everybody and you know you go out on the street
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this evening when you finish your hard shift you're working three hours on LBC and I just
29:04
think you know people look sad and you know that you like someone just called up and putting 10
29:09
pounds of fuel in their car the actual fuel is coming from Norway not coming from Ukraine
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but I can't say what I want to say but you can get the gist
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Donald Trump is a big stirrer and he's causing a lot of problems for us
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but we need to cut ties from him. Interestingly, during the break
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Simon Marks was saying to me that he thinks that Trump won't mind a defeat
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in these midterms in terms of Congress etc. No, I think that's right
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I think he's pricing it in and I think what we're already witnessing is the Donald Trump that we are going to be witnessing
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and I've got bad news. for you because he's not going anywhere. He's got another 26 months to go. I mean, we have to
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remember we're not yet even halfway through his second term in office. I think that, you know
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with Republicans on Capitol Hill developing a bit of spine, particularly, for example
30:03
over this Russia sanctions legislation and saying that they're going to try and pass more legislation
30:08
to constrain him. And with it being evident that the Republicans are about to suffer a substantial
30:15
defeat in the midterm elections. In a way, he almost would prefer to find himself facing a
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Congress that is controlled by Democrats because he'd be able to make them his new target. He'd be
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able constantly to tell the country that they're radical left. They're trying to bring Marxism and
30:31
communism to the United States, even though, of course, they are not. And I think he relishes that
30:38
kind of a fight. It's more of a it's more of the kind of bloodthirsty competition that he enjoys
30:44
than having to deal with disquiet among his own Republicans. And as everybody can see, I mean, if you've watched what's going on in these midterm elections
30:53
if he had tried to be less useful to Republicans seeking election in two and a half weeks time
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I'm not sure what more he could have done because he has been utterly useless
31:09
in terms of providing them with any fodder to assist in their campaigns
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And I think one has to look at it and say that for whatever psychological reasons
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he is indeed indifferent to the outcome of these elections and also wants the Klieg lights of publicity always on him
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So everything is about him rather than about these individual lawmakers in battleground critical races all over the country
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where the composition of Congress is going to be determined. Thanks, Matt. Let's go to Seamus in Wellington. Hi, Seamus
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Good afternoon. Thank you very much. Pleasure. You're on to Simon. What would you like to say
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I just wanted to thank you for the quality of the context for the debate. The whole relationship with NATO has got to be survived over the next two years
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I'm really sorry to say this out loud, but this war has now been lost
32:02
And all we can do from a European perspective is survive Trump
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try and hold NATO together and try and make some sort of semblance of Ukraine post-Trump
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where we can then have a proper and mature relationship and a proper global aspect to peace
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not this lunatic psychopath who's carving up the world along with Putin and the Chinese
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I want to ask Simon if other people are seeing it in the same way as Seamus, surviving Trump
32:31
I think, Seamus, you make a hugely important point. And I'm sure that in the corridors of power in various European capitals, the calculation that's being made is we've just got to get through the next 26 months and survive Trump
32:44
I mean, the question I would have is what happens if we all wake up and discover that J.D. Vance or Marco Rubio are running things in the United States
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I mean, do we honestly think that this brand of Republican politics in America is going to evaporate when Donald Trump leaves the stage
33:03
I'm not convinced that that's necessarily the case. And I'm also not convinced that it is entirely certain that on January the 20th, 2029, the next American president will necessarily be a Democrat. So those calculations have to be made. They're very important, but they can't be guaranteed
33:23
I just want to read you this. It's from Harley who says, No disrespect to Simon for his left of centre anti-Trump positioning
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but your discussion is missing the elephant in the room. Europe and others betrayed America over dealing decisively with Iran
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which will have to be reckoned with at some point. With oil flowing through the Straits of Hormuz
33:40
Russian diesel falls away and sanctions stand. Europe and the UK especially have made themselves geopolitically irrelevant
33:46
nowhere more so than in the Middle East, where we're backing the wrong side of history, the Iran regime
33:51
Look, I preferred it when I was being called sagacious. Look, I mean, there's an awful lot in there. The overriding reality is that Donald Trump's decision to go to war against Iran, emboldened as he was by Benjamin Netanyahu to begin that conflict, was carried out without any plan, any calculation that assumed this was going to be anything other than a cakewalk
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And I don't think it's Europe that is holding Donald Trump up back from completing the war in Iran and bringing about regime change in Iran
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It is the reality of the circumstances that demonstrate that you cannot win this war from the air only
34:36
You've got to deploy ground troops. And there is no public support in the United States for the deployment of ground troops in this conflict
34:44
This is Donald Trump's mess. It's not Europe's mess
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