Up next in 10
Shelagh Fogarty is joined by host of the News Agents Jon Sopel after today's PMQs was dominated by one subject - the now-collapsed case against two people accused of spying for China. Both men say they are innocent.
It comes after Tory leader Kemi Badenoch wrote to Keir Starmer on Sunday, asking him to address a series of "unanswered" questions about the case.
In her letter, Badenoch accused the PM and his ministers of being "too weak to stand up to Beijing on a crucial matter of national security".
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0:00
In relation to this ding-dong between the Prime Minister and Kemi Beidenhock
0:04
the leader of the opposition, it's all to do with this attempt to prosecute two men accused of spying
0:12
two advisors accused of spying for China in Parliament. Keir Starmer says that the government will now publish in full witness statements
0:20
related to that case of two people accused of spying for China. Keir Starmer and the government were under pressure to publish the evidence
0:29
it submitted in the case. Kenny Badenock really put him under pressure
0:34
in the House of Commons today. Let me just play you some of that exchange
0:38
and you'll get a sense. It's all about who stopped evidence being usable in the trial
0:45
So have a listen. He's blaming his civil servants. He's blaming the media. He's blaming the last government
0:51
He cannot explain. He cannot explain why he could not see this case through
0:57
He should have seen this case through. And let me be clear, Mr Speaker, about what has happened
1:02
A serious case involving national security has collapsed because this government is too weak to stand up to China
1:10
And if the Prime Minister cannot protect the members of this House
1:14
what does that say about his ability to protect this country? The case did not proceed because the policy of the past government
1:24
did not meet the test that was necessary. That is the long and the short of it
1:30
Far from evading, I have said I will disclose the full witness statements
1:35
that set out exactly what was in the witness statements, exactly what the subsequent statement says
1:41
and the allegation that somehow they were changed, that the first statement and the second statements are different
1:48
is completely and utterly unfounded. Mr Speaker, it's a pathetic spectacle. Instead of taking responsibility, instead of taking responsibility for the fact they failed to update the law
1:59
so this case could actually be... The review, Mr Speaker, 2015 was the review of the legislation
2:05
They took eight years to change the law. Had they done that more quickly, this case would have proceeded. It was their failure
2:14
Claire Starmer essentially accuses Kemmy Baden-Ock of playing politics with national security
2:19
It's important to know that the head of the Crown Prosecution Service, the CPS, said that the case collapsed because evidence couldn't be obtained from this government, the current government, referring to China as a national security threat
2:32
Keir Starmer brought up an interview that Kemi Beidinok gave back in 2023 about how Britain should describe China
2:40
This was when she was business secretary. The leader of the opposition was business secretary at the time
2:46
In September 23 the leader of the opposition said her words September 23 the relevant year her words we should certainly not be describing China as a foe It worth looking up the word foe in the dictionary Mr Speaker
3:08
She went, Mr Speaker, it doesn't end there, Mr Speaker. In September 2024, the Leader of the Opposition said this, I quote
3:18
I have shied away from calling China a threat. She is playing politics with national security
3:32
The Prime Minister can read the beginning of a quote. Let me finish that quote
3:36
At the end of that quote that he just read out, I did describe China as a threat
3:42
But this whataboutry that he is doing neglects the fact that those spies were charged
3:49
under a Conservative government. They were let off under Labour. He has not answered any questions
3:56
On Monday, Mr Speaker, on Monday, the security minister repeatedly told the House
4:03
that ministers did not take decisions, that it was the deputy national security adviser who had full freedom
4:09
Is the government seriously saying that only one man, the deputy national security adviser, had anything to do with this failure
4:18
Is he seriously saying that the deputy did not discuss with the National Security Advisor
4:24
did not discuss with the Home Secretary or with anyone in Downing Street
4:28
Is the Prime Minister seriously saying that? Yes. Oh, there you go
4:34
Now, that thing she said in the middle of that answer, I did describe China as a threat in her interview back in 2023
4:41
Problem is, she didn't. China is a country that we do a lot of business with
4:46
China is a country that is significant in terms of world economics
4:51
It sits on the UN Security Council. We certainly should not be describing China as a foe
4:57
but we can describe it as a challenge, which is what the Justice Secretary said yesterday
5:01
and which is what I'm saying today. I don't think we should be careless
5:06
in terms of how we speak about other countries. And the reason the use or the lack of use of the word threat
5:12
by Kenny Bay de Nock, both now and then, is that the Director of Public Prosecution
5:16
Stephen Parkinson said that while there was sufficient evidence when charges were originally
5:20
brought against these two men on spying charges, China would need to have been labelled as a threat
5:27
to national security at the time of the alleged offences. Now, John Sopal is here, co-host of
5:32
Global's podcast, The News Agents. I mean, it's a dense story in many ways, isn't it, John? But it
5:38
boils down to um who said what about the status of china in relation to our national security
5:46
well what you've done there i mean i look can i just a kind of general overview i think an awful
5:52
lot of people who are going to think i don't know i just this is making my head explode it's making
5:57
my head it too complicated can someone you know shake me and wake me up when this is over and they resolved who the baddie is and they being taken away in cuffs Because at the moment you think well there well he says that but she says that and he says and they all saying something different
6:14
And I think that is one of those political stories where it gets so dense, you think, there's something not quite right here, but do I need to bother about it
6:21
It's like having a hole drilled in the forehead. Exactly. So I wonder how much purchase and traction this is getting from the wider public at this stage
6:32
There's kind of, and I think that, you know, look, it seems to me that the clip you played there of Kemi Badenok
6:39
where what she says in the commons and saying you didn't play the full quote, you've just played the full quote
6:46
she didn't say it was a threat. The challenge is very different to a threat, isn't it
6:49
You're a very challenging pupil to have in the classroom. Ms Fogarty. Yes, I was
6:55
And so I think that is something that is completely different. And so there are questions that the Tories need to answer
7:04
I think there is a question, you know, did Conservative ministers see the advice
7:09
which was the challenge, the gauntlet that was thrown down by Keir Starmer
7:15
He said he was absolutely confident that this was all done by the Deputy National Security Advisor
7:19
and then he said, well, let me just double check that and you kind of thought, oh, is there a wobble there or something like that
7:27
And so I think that needs clarifying. But if there is, it does need clarifying, but if there is in his mind the scintilla of a question
7:33
he's right in that moment to say so, isn't he? Yes. For transparency. Yes, and they're also going to publish the evidence that was going to be given
7:42
So that is, again, a further sign of transparency. but is it possible that we are not it's not going to be clued out it's not going to be colonel
7:52
mustard in the library with the lead piping it's going to be something different where they we're
7:57
not going to find a smoking gun that you know it's perfectly possible that there have been
8:04
cock-ups and screw-ups at various different places in the management of evidence but you know i think
8:10
A lot of this does hinge on, and it's kind of arcane stuff, about whether you can prosecute under the Official Secrets Act if you haven't deemed a country to be a hostile state, a threat
8:25
And for economic reasons, neither the Tories nor the current government want to do that so explicitly
8:31
And it shows that actually, for all the sound and fury that we're getting
8:38
that there aren't great policy differences between the last government over how to handle China
8:45
They both recognise it as a challenge. Exactly. Neither is prepared to say it's a threat to our national security
8:49
And they both recognise it as an economic opportunity if you're going to grow the economy
8:53
So they both have kind of had to do this looking both ways and speaking out of the corners of their mouth
8:58
on the one hand yes China is a challenge Yes we very worried about cybersecurity Yes we worried about intellectual property Yes we very worried about all these different things But yeah we want to sell more goods to China And yeah we kind of like the idea of our goods going in there
9:11
that it boosts British exporters along the way. And that is the conundrum that successive
9:17
governments, not just in this country have faced, but around the world are facing in terms of their
9:22
dealings with China. And so, you know, will we get the conclusive evidence about who is to blame
9:29
for this case collapsing, I still think there'll be accusation and counter-accusation
9:34
and there'll be a lot of people saying, oh, I'm tuning out now. Could it be a bit of both
9:39
Yeah, possibly. A bit of both of them. I mean, I don't want to kind of do the symmetry of guilt thing
9:46
where you've both been very naughty and you're both to blame equally
9:50
I don't know. We haven't got there yet. We've had the claims and the counter-claims
9:54
We're going to get the publication of the evidence. but at the moment you know it looks like the way starmer starmer seems struck me you know look
10:03
starmer is is at his best in the commons when he's sounding like the lawyer yeah and that's his kind
10:08
of that's his natural you know that's his wheelhouse and i thought the the threat including
10:13
saying to the judge i'll have to get that evidence and get back to you my lord yeah exactly and all
10:18
of those things i think play to his strength i think there are a few questions for the tories
10:22
to answer i think there are some for labour to answer whether it will be that they're both wrong
10:26
I don't know, but we haven't got there yet. And I think that it's confounding an awful lot of people
10:31
trying to make sense of it. And I wonder, just a final thought on the economic powerhouse that
10:37
China is and its role in our growth opportunities. I've just spent an hour talking about the budget
10:43
and taxes and people's cost of living. I wonder if you ask most voters in this country
10:49
um excuse me do you mind our government going softish on china if it means we get economic
10:56
growth i reckon most people would say no i don't mind look i think i might be underestimating people
11:01
but no if you've got a huge market out there and they're hungry for british goods then britain
11:07
should want to sell those goods to china but equally if there are things that are going to
11:13
compromise our national security and our safety in parliament in this instance yeah i mean you
11:17
You know, if you go back 40 years to the Cold War and the Soviet Union
11:24
there was hardly any... I mean, it was a Cold War. There wasn't any... Our economic future was not bound up with the Soviet Union
11:30
There was hardly any trade down then between the Soviet Union and Europe
11:34
Very different world now. We're in a very different world where China is integral to the global economy
11:41
And if suddenly the Chinese goods were taken from the shelves, i mean that would have a major major economic effect and so on the one hand we have to do
11:50
business with china but on the other hand we have to be wary and cautious and i think that the last
11:55
tory government tried to pursue that middle course and i think this government is trying to pursue
12:00
this middle course and i think there's a bit of a political blame game going on
12:04
over the collapse of this trial
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