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Hello and welcome to Full Disclosure, a podcast project conceived entirely to let me spend
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more time with interesting people than I would ever get on my radio show. And speaking of
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radio shows, David Lammy, do you miss yours? I do, James, I do. And it's sort of strange because people say, you know, you're Foreign
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secretary but the odd person says um you're the lbc guy where did it all go wrong mainly because
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occasionally i got the pleasure of standing in for you uh which is a much bigger show than my
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little thing on the weekend um but i do miss it and the thing i miss jones which i know that you
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will understand that a lot of people don't understand is the listening people think it's
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all about talking and more than anything else it's about listening and i hadn't realized that
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i had that skill until um becoming an lbc presenter and i i am a better listener by virtue of doing
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all those stints presenting and i i know that i will go to my grave blessing god for giving me
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the skill to listen and for this opportunity to listen to these and the intimacy of the folk that
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follow you and you have the most amazing progressive set of followers so it's a real kind of you know
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these numbers phone oh you see their names and it's just it's a family so i miss that i miss that
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beautifully put i miss you too yeah um we should begin at the beginning which is in 1972 in
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whittington hospital in north london both of your parents were guyanese very much part of the windrush
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generation um dad arrived first did they meet here or no in a sense my my my mother was my father's
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second wife um and it was very much arranged you know um it was arranged back in the village
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between my mother's adoptive mother and my father's mother. And, you know, my father sort of sent, I need a second wife
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People said Rose would be good. And that was kind of how it happened
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They didn't have the best marriage, to be honest. my my mother was a um quiet um country girl with a hell of a lot of principle
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and my father was an urbane city guy with a bit less principle a lovely charmer but but but they
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had a quite a tempestuous marriage to be honest um but yes he'd come here in 1956
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he'd fared fairly well he was very popular uh he and and what my father he had this
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wonderful knack of friendship and unusually for his generation um friendship well beyond
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racial stereotype my my father had a lot of white friends uh in the 50s 60s 70s
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he loved to drink in the pub um so my so our house was not it was it was typically west indian
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in one sense but not it was slightly bigger uh by sheer virtue of his personality i am i get i
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often get little moments in my notes when i'm preparing to interview somebody where i think
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that somebody's wikipedia page has been doctored or that there's some mythology has appeared in
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the story was he really a taxidermist he was a taxidermist did he bring his work home he was a
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taxidermist so the story is he wanted to be a pharmacist right um people forget that the wind
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rush generation yeah they came and they very much built the nhs the nurses uh they worked on the
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railways the buses um but they also came on a sort of program of working in different parts of
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manufacturing and in that era um uh taxidermy was huge it was it was still a big deal you know
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uh posh folk went out and shot big animals in in kenya
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and someone had to stuff them and people you know your cat died and got it stuffed it was a big deal
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and some of his work is still at the National History Museum
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Is it really? Have you been to see it? I have seen it
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yeah I saw it when I was culture minister he worked for the biggest taxidermy company
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at that time and Roland Royce I think it was called and he
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and that's what he did and we grew up with these animals
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Quite weird Well not weird Because it's all you know. Well, it was eclectic
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It was an eclectic, and he ultimately went into business for himself. He wasn't a very good businessman
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but he had a factory in Tottenham. Funnily enough, there's a story
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because he rented out some space in the very early days in his factory
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to a young lad who was soldering things together and making stuff who goes on to be Alan Sugar
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and abstract and all the rest of it uh so yeah but but he was attached to it
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should have got some equity instead of some rent um was it was we're comfortably off then as a family we were five children
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no we weren't because we weren't comfortably off i mean we could have been
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but we weren't because dad had a problem with alcohol right he had a problem with alcohol
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he wasn't a good businessman um when do you become aware of that and indeed of fractures
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well i guess you know i've got i've got elder brothers but i we're now i guess into the late
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70s 80s uh taxidermy um is waning animal rights is becoming big it's not a good business to be in
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um i never would have thought of that but of course it's not it makes perfect sense
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truth and of course it's completely faded away really as a skill but the bottom line is dad
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is this is this is the 1980s the economy's not great taxidermy's not great he starts to drink
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um uh i suspect he's got demons you know you don't quite know what in that era men didn't
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sort of you don't know but things aren't going well for him and as a consequence in a very
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patriarchal family and my mother was working very hard but not making very much money um you know
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she worked in London Underground for a bit she then worked for Haringey Council as a housing
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officer but not making very much money and not very worldly wise he leaves when when I'm when
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I 12 never see him again he goes to America he doesn tell us that he leaving and I remember him you know kissing me on a platform in king cross and saying take care of your mom and i thought he was coming back and he but i had a feeling he might not and he didn um so i would
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say that we then become quite poor and actually you know you talk about i talk sometimes about
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being working class and social mobility but the truth is uh really i'm raised by a single parent
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from that point onwards and the truth is if you've got a parent that has addiction issues
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there's a kind of chaos and a and a um you don't quite know what's coming next is the truth
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and so there's that sort of dysfunctional element doesn't matter but that's not about
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what class you are that can be you can be you know you can be terribly posh and have a
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parents who are alcoholic and it's not it's not a lot of fun uh drugs or alcohol it's trust
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you can't trust the adults I remember one Christmas my dad bought me
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this is a chopper bike now a chopper bike was a big
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big deal fantastic kind of braking system at the middle of this bike and
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I was so excited he bought it at Christmas by New Year
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he had sold it to fund his alcohol problem. And he said it was nicked
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and we sort of knew it wasn't nicked. He'd sold it on
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So that's the sort of stuff that stays with you. Do you think that your mum consciously wanted to get you out of it
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Because I think a year or two before your dad left, with the help of the parish priest
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with church being a huge part of your mum's approach to parenting, got you into choir school
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Mum and I were a great team. I mean, we were a great team
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So I think my mum was always very focused on education. I think it would be too strong to say she wanted to get me out of it
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Because she just didn't have quite that kind of confidence. She had a quiet purpose, and that was education
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But getting me out of it would have been a bit stretching. but the truth is I wanted to get out of it
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I had this fierce ambition way beyond what was capable. I don't know where the hell it came from, but it was there
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And so it was a kind of teamwork. And I also... So you didn't know what you wanted
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but you knew that you wanted more than was available in Tottenham. It wasn't just... It was that
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It was that. What I sometimes think is that Tottenham was parochial
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It wasn't just local. I didn't really move much beyond the N17 postcode
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And it was small. I felt it was small. But more than that, I sometimes moved into these places
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either with my father, because as I say, he was gregatious. We'd go on trains
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We'd go on journeys. He had friends who were who were way beyond the N17 postcode
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And the truth is that I but I did see the way that sometimes people patronized my parents
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There was a sort of this is the era of Alf Garnet and, you know, you know, love thy neighbor, mixed blessings
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I mean you know comedians really taking the Michael out of out of black people, black skin
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it was very very regular and we were sort of fringe really and I saw
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the way that you know sometimes I was in these settings where people were
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patronising my parents and I thought I don't want that. You were sensitive to that
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I was sensitive to that. Did you talk to them about it? No. Never
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God no. No no no no no I was just precocious enough to know that that was what was going on
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And I guess my dad would have known that was going on. But, you know, as is the case with lots of first generation immigrants, wherever they are in the world, they nod and there's a meekness
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Don't make a fuss. And they don't make a fuss as they persevere
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Sure. And I was sort of acutely aware of that, I guess
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And so you set yourself on a different course. Yeah. I mean, I didn't know the hell I was going to do it
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I mean, I had no idea how it was going to be possible
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And I think I described it in one of my books as a sort of, it was a bit like sort of Wizard of Oz
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I sort of fell down a rabbit hole and turned up somewhere else. You've also heard about the fear of prison
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not because you were likely to become a criminal. I don't know, maybe I was
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Well, as you looked around, that was an avenue that perhaps was better trodden than others. Yeah
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Yeah. So a close relative of mine ended up in prison. A lot of the older guys in that period in the 70s were ending up in prison
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And there are tough parts of this country. um if you went back in time Salford um Brixton um you know um parts of Belfast for a whole range
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of reasons where um in certain eras people did time you know they went to prison um and
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this was the generation in the 70s where a lot of the older black these guys now are in their
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60s but they're sort of 10 11 12 years older than i was disappeared i mean it's like an epidemic
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they just disappeared off the streets and um you heard stories of being beaten up badly by the
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police being framed but you also knew that there was a lot of criminality casual petty criminality
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but nevertheless it was criminality um and so prison was this deep fear of being locked up taken
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away out of control and it did did for my youthful imagination landed on this and it it it and it
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stayed in my head for for many many years and i guess um a trip that i made to to a prison i think
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it was maidstone um uh very i must have been you know 10 or 12 um stayed with me it just it just
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stayed stayed with me and and I fixated on it as the way that young people can and um
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and determined that that would not be my destiny did you have much interaction with the police
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yes um I don't say much because I avoided I avoided the police and wherever that would
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you know could happen so not I wouldn say much but I did um and um I remember being I can now remember how old I was I forgetting Was I 12 Probably 12 In those days I had a curly perm
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Oh, my God. How sad I must have looked. This was the era of fame
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Everyone had leg warmers and curly perps. but I remember being surrounded by
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I don't know, five or six officers who said I fitted the description of someone
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who just mugged somebody who patted me down I was really, really scared
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and I wet myself on the street that's how scared I was
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I was scared of being on my own with these officers and being patted down and you know was I going to be thrown into the back of a van and that was that
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there's already in your life um an extraordinary duality then isn't there because you've got this
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chaotic home life difficult community and by dint of your mum's belief that you would become the
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black alid jones i haven't made that up i met alid jones obviously in the studio here
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yeah yeah since then um is that you know the sights were set upon upon the king's school in
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peterborough because you had you had the voice of an angel yeah apparently i i did i did actually
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and you know that was my mother's faith going to church um a wonderful vicar father ken wonderful
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Welsh vicar, great socialist by the way, and a head teacher and wonderful music teacher
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You know, you meet these people who have a sort of powerful conviction and these are
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people who had a conviction in that era to the inner city and to working in places like Tottenham
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And I wish, you know, they're not alive for me now to sort of quiz them on why they had
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that vocation. but there was quite a few of them that landed on me
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and they spotted something and they spotted a determination and that sense that he doesn't want to stay here
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he wants to get somewhere and I'm going to help this kid and I'm so, it makes me very emotional
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thinking about these characters and I'm so grateful for oh dear I'm getting emotional now
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for all that they did really to support me and my ambition
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because I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for them And that's a recurring motif in your life, isn't it
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The consciousness of the path not taken. Could you talk about escape
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Is that the right word, almost? From another possible future? You could talk about escape, but you could just talk about ambition
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Yes. And in certain... I'm just tying it into that fear that you felt
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Oh, yeah. I see. Psychologically. Yeah. god it's so complex of course there's a there's a deep fear and if i was being honest i think
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there's also people these days talk about traumas don't they yes and anxiety you've already said
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two or three things that i think would qualify as trauma from a therapeutic perspective so there's
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that and then there's this sort of self-belief there's the hope there's there's the kind of your
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there's the relational bit where you're making friendships with these adults who are trying to support
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you and get you to a better place and you hold on to them for dear
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life and it's hopeful and it's exciting and it's different. Some of them
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live more bohemian lives you know you step into their homes and there are all these books
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and stuff I mean all we had was Mills and Boons and encyclopedia
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Yeah. So so there's all. So it's it's I always this is not all negative
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There are many upsides, but they they they they alongside mum, you know, I get to Peterborough, which is a different world, which is a new town
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there's a roy kineer in this era is quite a big figure on british tv and is advertising moving
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to peterborough and lots of um lots of eastenders have moved up there and um and it's it's just
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different it's full of you know peterborough cathedral is this awesome building and i you know
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these days i'm in the house of commons and i stand up and i do a speech and that's another
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awesome building but it all starts in peterborough in many ways i find my voice there and even though
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it's not easy and it's not easy there's there's racism it's the 80s explicit racism oh god yeah
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yeah we're almost identical ages and i i didn't remember much from my school i wouldn't because
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i'd only ever have been an observer of it but i i had lunch recently with a lad who was a few years
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behind me and he was still very traumatized by the racism he experienced that my school had exactly
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the same era it was just there and teachers didn't really step in to stop it no and sometimes they too
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were more explicit about it of course because there was it wasn't i don't know if you you you
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found this it was an era of hard knocks character forming character forming that that that was the
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the view yes um so if you could survive that you you you live as an adult kind of
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holding and with a sort of weird um what's that stockholm syndrome where you're grateful for the
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character forming i mean it's quite bizarre but that was part of it and and by the way yeah there
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was racism but it wasn't there was lots of isms yes there was sexism uh there was classism there
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was homophobia but everyone gets everyone gets kicked it's not you know if they find something
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in everybody it was still corporal punishment we all got whacked so it wasn't you know uh yeah
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um that was the era and and it strikes me there's two interviews here there's the interview of the
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king's school chorister in peterborough and the interview of the north london school boy growing
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up in tottenham but of course you're both of them did you switch did you consciously when you'd come
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home for the holidays or did you consciously switch did you feel yourself changing yeah i mean and and
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That dichotomy, confusion. Yes
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It's another trauma. I lived with for many years. Would your voice change
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Am I working class? Am I middle class? My voice broke late
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But would your accent change when you came home? Oh, my accent. God, yes. God, yes
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I was watching a video of me in Parliament, you know, when I first got in there
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I was so posh. i spoke my kids said dad why are you speaking how come you spoke so posh in your late 20s
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and and and and the truth is i'd practiced i i want i'd watched you know pygmalion and my fair
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lady and remember there's you know audrey hepburn's practicing elocution and i i i wanted to be a
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barrister so i had to lose this north london i wanted to fit in um and in that sense there's a
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part of my nature that wants to, what does want to fit in wants to go with the scene And just back to Peterborough Peterborough is a kind of every town
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Yes. It's Middle England. It's the Fens. It's a great way to learn about England
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Yes. It's a great place to sort of fit into. And by the end of that journey, by the time I was 18, I fitted in
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So much so that you became head boy. Absolutely. How proud was your mom
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Oh, she was my biggest cheerleader, so she was very proud. And actually, I guess, in that sort of precocious kind of way
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where you're, if I look back psychologically, making her proud propels me for most of my teenage years
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and well into my 20s, well on to becoming an MP. just the thrill the joy um the hope and possibility um again i'm getting emotional
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of making a very good therapist of making her proud i mean that that's the that's the overriding
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emotion really so you start almost collecting these achievements first this first that first
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black this first and it's an addiction i can see that it's an addiction so when did the academics
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kick in you because i mean it's all very well being able to sing like an angel but presumably
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you had to produce the goods academically not only to to thrive at kings but also to become head boy
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you were there on a scholarship but it was a choral scholarship i mean i think i was precocious i don't
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think i was terribly bright at 11 really i was i was pretty average um i struggled a bit with concentration
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Okay. I had to really practice revision. But you had the ability
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to practice revision. Well, I did towards the end. I sort of worked it out
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at about 15. Partly because I thought, you know, bloody hell, if I don't get my GCSEs
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I was the first year of GCSEs, I don't get to stay here. I get to go back
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I suddenly realized I want to stay here. The transactional nature of qualifications
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as currency yeah i've got to get these grades and stay in sixth form so you pulled yourself
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so i pulled my socks up and um yeah so i yeah and it it sort of it started to happen really
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from the moment i got my gcse's i was off right off i didn't look and when did the barrister
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ambition kick in yeah i mean i i had this thing of wanting to help people i'd begun to realize
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despite everything i was a bit of a bridge builder as a person why do you say despite everything
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because it makes perfect sense given because i guess you're already a bridge yourself between
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two very different even then i must have had an instinctive feeling but i've learned as i've got
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older that some people can take these experiences and become bitter yes that was never my personality
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trait thank god i wasn't neither of my parents actually had that they're not they weren't bitter
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people or sour people they were both hopeful people who liked to laugh in different ways
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so that wasn't my nature thank god and all of that experience led to this place folk wanted
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to help me i reached out to them i was a bridge builder and i think i decided that law would be
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good because i could i could i cared about justice questions this was an era i was very
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preoccupied with apartheid and Nelson Mandela and Steve Biko and what was going on in South Africa
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There was a big debate about sanctions and boycotting South Africa and Margaret Thatcher was in power
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and then the riots were happening over her period and there was a sense of injustice
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It was a time of these big cases, the Guildford 4, the Birmingham
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6, the Tottenham 3, these big cases of injustice and that started to speak to me and I thought I could be I could be a lawyer arguing on
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behalf of people well so this is this is a bit of amateur psychology for me then so this is the two
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Davids there's the the Davids with the burning sense of injustice partly because of what you've
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seen happen to people you grew up with in Tottenham and you've seen older members of the generation
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disappear so that's where the sense the feeling comes from but what school and education gives you
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is you realize just in time the tools that you might need to do anything about it beautifully
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put and then into that mix throw some of what i was experiencing the racism i was experiencing
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peterborough the the at moments uh the but also wonderful pastoral care making friends
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building bridges um people being really generous to me and so into that mix comes oh this i can
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make something of this i don't quite know where it's going but let me land on law why not teaching
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i did think about teaching i thought about the priesthood did you i thought about acting yeah um
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So, but for some reason, the justice angle, and there was a bit of me, this goes back to watching my parents being patronised and feeling rather small and parochial
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There was a bit of me, frankly, with the hood and the gown and the sort of power
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It was just too appealing. So that was, I think, there was a show on in the 70s and early 80s
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it's a wonderful show it used to play at lunch times and I'd go home for lunch sometimes
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Crown Court yeah of course self contained stories but really really theatrical
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I love this show yes I get that before we get to SOAS which is where your
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A-levels took you, your A-level results took you I'm just interested in the
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Broadwater farm riots unfolding essentially at home when you were away at school
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It's another sort of moment of dichotomy, isn't it? Massive moment. It was a moment of, oh God, fear, shame
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Tottenham at that point became totemic beyond football. Up until that point, people only thought about Tottenham
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really when they were thinking about football. And from that point, in that era, with the prime minister we had at that moment, sadly because PC Keith Blakelock was hacked to death, which was a hugely monumental development in the national life of our country
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Tottenham came to tell me for the wrong reasons, and I was from Tottenham. And everybody knew that
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And everybody knew that. That stigma was very real and very live
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But behind that story was pain on all sides, really. Yes. And then that's before you sort of rise through..
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School to become head boy. And it's a fairly effortless journey then to SOAS, back to London, with your A-levels in your back pocket
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And your legal training begins in earnest. So you've got your eye on the wig now
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Yeah, I don't want to give it, I always worry about making it sound too, it wasn't effortless, because I still, I lacked a certain kind of discipline
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I was struggling at that stage with again you know the the doubt and self-doubt you have when
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you grow up without a father and you said something once about worrying about who would
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teach you how to shave and I found that very moving all that I remember that not being able
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to do a tie yeah I saw an old teacher of mine Miss Hartrock the other the other day she reminded me
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that in the first class that I was in for A-level English, we had Chaucer
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And tears started rolling down my eyes. And I thought, why have I chosen English
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I don't understand this. And everyone else in the class does. So there were, of course, no one else understood it
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But I was going to say, you know, but basically insecurity. Coupled with precociousness
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It's a weird cocktail, isn't it? But I wouldn't want to lose that insecurity
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because that stayed with me for many, many years. and I have up until relatively recently
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had imposter syndrome at nearly every critical stage of my life and certainly on a more personal level
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at moments in nearly every decade of my life struggled with anxiety
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So I don't want to, it wasn't all plain sailing. I mean, I don't want to give that impression
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No, I should have said seamless. rather than effortless. Okay, okay. You moved smoothly
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but while struggling yourself. When did you notice that the imposter syndrome
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had gone? In this job! Are you serious? Yes, yes! Finally, it's gone
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What am I doing? How incredible. Finally, it's gone. And I had no..
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I just didn't... Maybe it's also, you know, getting into your 50s
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I had no idea. You mean literally foreign secretary, not shadow foreign secretary
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No, no, foreign service. It's always been there. It's always been there. There's always been a moment at every single stage, becoming a parliamentarian, you know, stepping out into Tottenham after the riots. I had a panic before I stood up and did the Windrush speech. Every single moment I can look back, getting married, and there's a sort of imposter syndrome. Can you, can you, is this me? Can I do this? Can I carry this off
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um and um i literally i literally walked into number 10 the prime minister asked me to be
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foreign secretary i walked into the foreign office and i'm gonna get emotional again and and it just something just fell off my shoulders i i had
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arrived and there was a powerful sense that i'm the right guy in the right job at the right time
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to do this and a certain kind of innate confidence um in my ability to do this
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that that has that has carried me through and continues to this day is your mum still with us
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no no she's not she um so she didn't see this she didn't see this no she saw me become an mp
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but she died back in 2008 and you know I would so love her to have been there
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I should say to you actually, Jones when I walked up to number 10
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I had in my pocket that morning I woke up and I thought
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I'm going to take a photo of my parents so I had a photo of my parents
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just after they'd got married in my pocket and I walked into number 10 at that stage Sue Gray was still Keir Starmer's chief of staff
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Sue grew up yards away from me and Tom she grew up in a very working class family there was mental health in her family
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Sue's a bit older than me but I sort of remember Sue literally living on Philip Lane in the bottom
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of our road I remember her I remember her walking past she always looked so she carried the world on
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her shoulders and she was very purposeful and um and we both had a hug and a little cry because we
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both knew at that stage my god we've come a long way from our backgrounds you know in the Irish
34:49
community in the West Indian community very close very very close um it was it was the first it was
34:55
getting into parliament that prompted you to try to track your dad down I think and and getting
35:01
hold of him in texas and and well actually he tracked me down right uh i guess i i could be
35:08
found because you had appeared above yeah yeah i'd appeared above the parapet i think he was very
35:13
proud i know he was very proud he tracked me down we had spoken on the phone he actually tracked me
35:18
down when i was at harvard and that was a big decision he in 2003 it was during the iraq war
35:25
we got word that he was dying badly of throat cancer um and he was effectively a pauper by then
35:36
um and i chose not to go and see him um you know i'd grown up without him i decided that for my
35:48
own well-being i this was not going to be a good idea um i did go after he died and and and and i
35:57
got him a headstone um and i you know told him i forgived him at his graveside because i did it's
36:04
you know i absolutely um um and i got a sense that he died quite broken yeah um but um i chose was not to go and I was worried that that would haunt me but it was the right decision Good Why America Why did you set your sights on
36:22
I mean, Harvard is fairly hard to say no to, but you do have to apply for it in the first place
36:27
So what made you decide that your future, that bit of your future lay on the other side
36:32
There's a part of the story that is the United States that's incredibly hopeful
36:38
where everything is possible. There was a glitzy show on TV at the time called L.A. Law
36:46
There was a very, very, very charismatic. Blair Underwood. Blair Underwood. You've got him, right
36:52
And I thought, I want to be him. He had a much better curly perm than I had
37:00
And so that was how it came about. And I sort of applied for this thing that I didn't really understand
37:09
And very strangely, months later, the application came back and said, you've got in
37:15
And also at the time, in a kind of very British way, there were some kids taking the British Inns of Court School of Law to court black kids
37:25
saying that they're failing black kids left, right and centre. And it's all subjective and it's racism and this, that next thing
37:31
They were a bit older than me. And I thought, my God, I've got to have a plan B. So it was really a plan B
37:35
Right. But a plan B that sort of, I did the Interscourt School of Law, I got through it
37:41
But then I, the Harvard application came back and I thought, well, I've got to go
37:45
So that's how it came about. But I guess also, James, and you will have, you know, you've interviewed lots of people, lots of African-Americans and Brits
37:55
there is a there's a familiar story isn't there of the minority leaving europe and going to the
38:05
states and kind of getting a kind of so in in america i found a black middle class right at
38:14
harvard wow this was like you know this this was different because i know i mean speaking of
38:21
television programs the hoxtables the cosby show we love that show and all that it meant
38:26
so there was this whole possibility and this whole thing and this whole network there was
38:33
there was something i had to touch you're right uh that was a long way from tottenham or peterborough
38:41
and do it for myself and i i i did not find myself because that would be way too strong but i found
38:51
and some things that were very different. And the truth is, I came back from Harvard
38:55
and working in the States with a huge ego. Why did you come back
39:00
Oh, I missed home. Was it that simple? Massively. I missed Walker's Crisp
39:05
I missed tea. I missed Rabina. I missed Extenders. I missed everything about home
39:11
In California, I was working in California. It was great. But it wasn't the UK
39:16
And the truth is, we talked about this before, James I think I'm I am very English I'm very bloody English uh I mean that's what I am and I
39:28
missed home uh so that's why I came back and I'm grateful that I came back but but America gave me
39:34
a confidence Harvard gave me a confidence um uh that propelled me into the House of Commons and
39:44
But that moment is a moment where I look back and I still can't quite reconcile the confidence I must have had at 26, 27 to run for Tottenham with the guy I am now
39:58
Because that was the most unbelievable thing I could have done. A little bit of if you can make it there, you can make it anywhere then you came home with
40:06
Maybe. Perhaps. But wouldn't have developed in quite the same way or at quite the same speed if you'd stayed here for the early years of your legal career, the earliest years of your legal career
40:13
Yes, I think it would have gone. Yes, I think that's probably right. I think that's probably right
40:18
So where did the political impulse start? When did that kick in? Well, I talked about justice and social justice being a big theme, law being the thing that I'd connected to
40:30
But politics being there very strongly, being very argumentative, having lots of rows with Tories
40:38
a great friend of mine at school, James Adams, was a big Tory
40:45
James, sadly, that's another story, was killed on the London bombings, actually
40:56
But I was very argumentative, and I guess I moved. I did what that what what what sometimes happens with lawyers you you go from visiting someone in
41:11
a police cell to asking bigger questions about why they're in the police cell or representing
41:16
a small business that's gone bankrupt about why has it gone bankrupt and you go from you go to
41:22
policy and I've always been very interested in policy and politics I am you know I'm a labor man
41:29
but I wouldn't say I was a a labour animal I've got a politics that's pragmatic
41:37
I can find common cause and a means to an end rather than an end in itself
41:42
you've got it which puts me in the not the biggest majority
41:47
no I was going to say the sort of moderate wing of the Labour Party
41:51
of course yeah there are lots of you actually and again you're
41:58
there are lots of nice milestones when you get into parliament as well i mean but both statistical
42:03
ones but also achievement ones when you seconded the queen's speech um i think you announced you
42:08
announced your arrival really with that didn't you on the parliamentary stage certainly caught
42:13
tony blair's eye yeah yeah i i i forgot about that well there's a you know if you know me well
42:21
and I know you a little bit James so you're not that different in a way
42:25
the ability on a big stage to perform but actually privately capable of being quite quite shy and one lives with that
42:40
but you i mean you you clearly have the right stuff i mean we're now in the period of your
42:46
life where where people are aware of you and will know some if not all of of what you did um
42:52
what what what what are the moments for you i mean there were tuition fees uh you were particularly
43:01
interested as you achieve ministerial office the the going back to what you said about the
43:06
inns of court and other black students challenging the status quo there you you you had a look at how
43:11
many black teenagers were getting into oxford colleges and things like that what were you i
43:15
mean was there a uniting force was there a theme to your politics or or were you were you collecting
43:21
causes based on authenticity and interest yeah i've i've always uh reached for a certain authenticity
43:28
in the way that i've chosen to do my politics politics can make you desperately cynical but i
43:34
think i've still got on hopefulness and an optimism my i would say that my career is in in is in thirds
43:42
and i'm now in the in the in the third act the first act is under blair a junior minister under
43:49
Blair and Brown. I'm very proud of when I was a health minister of something called the Diabetes
43:58
National Service Framework. You know, at that stage, people still have their limbs cut off when
44:02
they got diabetes. And it's an illness that plagues a lot of black people. And I put in the
44:06
first system to really grip that and deal with that. Four-hour waits in A&E were mine. I was a
44:11
junior minister that delivered that. Tony asked me to move to culture and to lead the commemoration
44:17
on the abolition of the slave trade. And then on higher education
44:21
I started this, and I got a lot of stick for it at the time, this big debate about
44:26
who gets to go to Oxford and Cambridge, you might remember. Yes, I do. And challenged them on the amount of kids
44:34
from poor working class backgrounds in the North or black backgrounds in Tottenham
44:38
who weren't getting to go. That's changed. It's really, David Cameron picked that up
44:44
when he came into office, actually. But that has changed a lot. But in that period, I did a lot on fair access
44:49
And then the second stage is really as a backbencher where I find my voice in Parliament
44:55
It starts with the riots. 2011. Most definitely. You've got Windrush. You've got Grenfell
45:04
You've got Brexit and the second referendum campaign. So you had no problem whatsoever processing being in opposition in anything
45:12
You relished it more because of the freedom. Everybody said opposition's terrible
45:16
You can't make anything happen. You can't change anything. David Cameron asked me to lead the Lammy Review
45:21
Yes. I actually found I had a lot of power as long as you've got your voice
45:25
and you know how to use it. And I somehow did. And then at this stage
45:32
you then become this elder statesman and you've got portfolios. I'm now senior within the Labour Party
45:39
I co-chair Keir's campaign to lead the Labour Party and help my mate become the leader
45:47
and so I'm now in this arc of obviously governing foreign policy
45:53
at a very tough time that's the sort of journey those are the sort of three acts I think
45:58
There could be four Maybe there could be four How do you deal with, especially with a young family
46:04
How do you deal with some of the nastier behaviors of people in the media and public discourse
46:13
Public discourse has got a shed loads worse. Worse than ever? Worse than the 1980s
46:20
Oh, well, maybe. I mean, yeah. It feels that way to me, but I'm not in the..
46:24
It's personalized. People seem to lose touch with the fact that you've got children
46:29
Social media has made it wicked and nasty such that you can't read it
46:35
And if you've got anything like anxiety, it will feed it. You worry about your children a lot
46:44
I'm lucky I'm a London MP. I'm at home every morning, at home every evening, other than when I'm abroad in this particular role
46:50
But as an MP, my kids are very proximate to me. They matter hugely to me because I didn't grow up without a father
47:01
In a way, as a human being, I would say that I have found my working life, that purpose of my life, a lot easier than the personal side of my life
47:17
You know, being a father, being a partner, that's the stuff I've had to work at hard
47:27
I suppose in a way there are manuals or at least precedents for being foreign secretary
47:30
But the personal stuff is you have to learn it as you go along. Yeah, particularly if you come from a dysfunctional, broken family
47:36
You have to learn it, really work at it. So you clearly enjoy being foreign secretary
47:42
How frustrated have you been by the things that you can't do
47:46
and most obviously with with reference to gaza and um the the difference between being in opposition
47:53
and being in power i'm sitting here two and a half years into that war and feeling incredibly
48:01
just i i think the suffering is unimaginable that we're still here that it's still going on that i
48:11
have not been able to stop this by sheer force of sort of character
48:17
But I guess I do know that if you're the German foreign minister
48:22
the French foreign minister, the Japanese foreign minister, the Qatari, the Saudi Arabian, we all feel the same
48:31
And you sort of plug away day after day and eventually it will come to an end
48:37
But you just don't know the day in which it will come to an end. and and then he also recognized that there a war in Ukraine there a war in Sudan I am doing this job at a time of immense conflict and um but the uk
48:57
the world wanted the uk back it wanted us present it wants us here it wants us playing that role
49:05
because we cut ourselves off in 2016 and then again in 2019 we did we did and you were working
49:11
on this as a show by the way there are elements not quite i wouldn't say in ukraine but there are
49:16
elements where that period of cutting ourself off it has been a bit of you know i've been returning
49:23
to the table yes um and and sometimes when you're returning to the table people are not you know
49:28
the world's changed a bit since we're in the table there are a lot of middle powers countries like
49:33
Turkey, India, the Gulf. These are much bigger players today than when I started in politics 25 years ago
49:43
And of course, some of the colonial deference has disappeared now as well. We're in a post-colonial world
49:51
But we weren't when you started in politics. There were still vestiges or echoes
49:54
Absolutely. You earn your spurs at the table. That's interesting. And you have to sort of, there's a phrase
50:02
What's the phrase? the wisdom of a snake, the calm of a dove
50:11
I mean, I don't, you know, you have to be pretty, you have to have your wits about you
50:17
And your skills in place. So as you sort of struggle with the tension
50:24
between what you can do and what you can't do, how do you decide whether you've done
50:30
a good day's work or not? Oh God, look, let's be clear. I wanted to connect Britain again
50:36
I mean, I am genuinely, if someone had said we'd have done
50:40
what we've achieved just in a year, really built back those bridges in Europe
50:48
You know, a new deal with the EU, Ireland, Germany, France. That low moment in the Oval Office
50:59
between Donald Trump and President Zelensky. the day before we had a high moment with Keir Starmer and Donald Trump
51:10
then that low moment. And then where did Zelensky come the next day? He walked up number 10
51:15
We all breathed a sigh of relief. There was Keir Starmer, a warm embrace
51:19
and Britain back where it should be. So proud of that, proud of the trade deal with India
51:25
a new approach to Africa, things like Gibraltar, problems that we got through
51:32
we have done a lot Ukraine is still in the fight yeah we haven't cracked
51:41
Israel-Gaza but we have got we've got we've got medical aid into Gazans
51:47
well when people say you could have done this and you could have done
51:51
that whether it's the F-35 jets jet parts or I mean there are many people
51:57
who will never be satisfied understandably as long as Gazans are still being killed
52:01
But, I mean, is there something you wish that was feasible to do, which you haven't been able to do
52:08
The most important underlying question that people ask me, and I think they're absolutely legitimate to ask me and push me on this, is we can't be complicit
52:21
That's what they say. and um i am reassured that the decision i took in september not to send our arms because i felt
52:32
there was a clear risk of a breach of international humanitarian law means that we're not complicit
52:38
um um now then people say but you are still exporting stuff to israel and yeah we do send
52:45
things you know if a university wants some chemicals that are on the export licensing or some journalists want some body armor or NGOs
52:53
we do still send that. But we're not sending anything that the IDF could use to be used in Gaza
52:58
We're not actually sending direct parts to Israel that could be used in an F-35
53:03
But go to Lockheed Martin. Yeah, but there is this global pull on the F-35 that we do put into
53:10
And so we can't guarantee that something does not end up in Israel. Without pulling out of that pull altogether
53:15
Without pulling out of that pull altogether. And people say, pull out the pull. do they really mean it are they really saying we should ground um important uh aircraft that's used
53:29
to keep europe safe should we really turn around and tell the baltics look sorry you're on your own
53:35
with putin i don't think i don't think they really mean that so we've done all that we can do to make
53:39
sure we're not complicit and i'm satisfied of that but i want to bring the war to an end and and of course I wake up every day doing all I can to not just on my own but with partners to
53:50
bring this war to an end and to end on the fourth act the possible fourth act I suspect you've been
53:56
asked since you arrived in parliament whether you were going to be or whether you wanted to be
54:00
Britain's first black prime minister it's a rhetorical question there is it do you still
54:05
think of it occasionally you know I always feel I let people down with my answer because they ask
54:11
that not really about me but hopeful about about a certain kind of possibility um in britain
54:18
i see keir starmer get up every day he's a friend of mine uh his work rate is phenomenal
54:25
he moves from policy area to policy area um he's doing the job at the toughest of time particularly
54:34
for our economy? And do I think I'd like your job? No, I don't. No, I don't. I just don't
54:42
50% David Lammy answer, 50% politician. I'll take that. David Lammy, thank you
54:49
Thank you. Thank you, James. Thank you