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James O'Brien meets Dexys Midnight Runners frontman Kevin Rowland | Full Disclosure
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Aug 22, 2025
From a shifting childhood split between Wolverhampton, rural Ireland and London, to fronting one of the most distinctive and uncompromising bands of the 1980s, Kevin Rowland’s life has been defined by defiance, vision and resilience. In this in-depth conversation with James O’Brien, the Dexys Midnight Runners frontman reflects on the lasting impact of a father’s harsh words, the struggle to find his place in the world, and the burning drive to prove himself through music and style. Rowland speaks candidly about the creation and evolution of Dexys- from their soulful beginnings and fiercely protected aesthetic, to the extraordinary success of Come On Eileen and the pressures that came with it. He recalls the relentless control he exerted to protect his artistic vision, the personal cost of that intensity, and the creative compromises he would later come to regret. The conversation also explores his battle with addiction, the turning point that led to his recovery in 1993, and the revelations that followed as he began to confront the past he had long avoided. Now, with three decades of sobriety behind him, Kevin talks about continuing music on his own terms, embracing new ideas, and learning to be kinder to himself. Honest, unflinching and unexpectedly uplifting, this episode offers a rare glimpse into the man behind Dexys, the making of a global hit, and the life that came after. Find out more about Kevin Rowland’s memoir Bless Me Father https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/471401/bless-me-father-by-rowland-kevin/9781529958720 #JamesOBrien #FullDisclosure #LBC #kevinrowland #dexys LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
hello and welcome to full disclosure a podcast project designed to let me spend more time with
0:10
interesting people than i would ever get on the radio um kevin roland welcome thanks james it's
0:16
lovely to see you it's lovely to see you looking so well because one thing that i think anyone who
0:21
reads your new book will come away with is is and i hope you don't find this patronizing is
0:27
quite a protective feeling that you have well sort of yeah i'm glad i'm glad you're doing so well
0:34
and sort of a desire people some people might read it and think that they wish they could look
0:39
after you a bit it's during some of the periods you cover in the book but not now interesting
0:43
yeah interesting never thought of that well we should start at the beginning um which is in 1953
0:48
a brief period in wolverhampton that you're probably too young to remember before you
0:53
relocated to mayo exactly yeah i went to mayo about one years old i don't really remember it
0:58
i remember being in mayo those are my first memories because because your dad worked in
1:02
construction like a lot of irish men in that in that era pretty much all of them did didn't they
1:06
and then back to britain how old were you when you came back to britain i was four years old
1:13
just i just started school in in ireland and then a couple of months and then uh over to england and
1:18
started school do you know do you know why why were they moving around so much yeah i do um not
1:24
long i mean my dad you know all power to him he came over here from from from mayo and just before
1:31
the um second world war and he was a laborer and he just queued for a day's work yeah you okay no
1:38
you were lazy yesterday okay you that kind of thing he worked hard he became a carpenter and
1:45
And then before long, he set up his own business in the early 50s, which he lost just before I was born
1:51
Right. So he lost the house as well. Everything. So my mum and the four kids, and she was pregnant at the time with my younger sister
2:01
We all went back to dad's farm in Ireland. Gosh. Yeah. To the bosom of the..
2:05
Tiny farm as well. For safety. Yeah. Literally. Yeah. But it was always a temporary thing
2:10
Temporary thing. He was planning to come back and do it all again. Exactly. He stayed in England, in Wolverhampton, working
2:16
staying with my mum's brother, working, and sending money home to my mum, which she saved for another deposit
2:22
Gosh. And then we all came back, yeah. So your mum had faith in him then? Oh, God, yeah
2:27
Yeah, I guess so. I mean, to think that, or give him another go
2:34
We were very strict Catholics, so there was never any, no matter what was going on
2:40
And there wasn't. and they were generally all right. It was arguments and stuff
2:46
but divorce or anything like that would never be even an option. And you mentioned being Catholics
2:52
You were an altar server. You went the whole nine yards, didn't you? You did the whole Catholic church
2:57
I got right into the church thing, yeah. I loved it. I was Catholic. I raised a Catholic
3:01
Again, in a sort of second, third generation Irish family. But when other people read
3:05
that he thought about being a priest, he dreamed of training to be a priest
3:09
they sort of go, wow, that's a bit weird. but for kids raised in the case I think every boy went through a period of thinking that he
3:15
possibly had a calling I think so I think so and we're giving quite a lot of encouragement really
3:20
you want to sign us up quick yeah if you're breathing you're in but they didn't let me in
3:25
but you didn't try very hard to get into it did you I tried pretty hard I did the Latin lessons
3:31
every Saturday morning but I was pretty slow on it and I went as far as meeting the bishop in
3:35
Birmingham we got the bus to Birmingham me and my mum we met the bishop I sat the exam but the trouble was simultaneously I'd been getting in quite a lot of trouble at school
3:43
and I'm sure they would have written to the head nun for a reference who had already told my mum I was going to be going nowhere you know
3:51
Well that was a recurring theme in your childhood that you were going to go nowhere. Yeah and your dad joined in a bit sometimes
3:57
Very much. Why was that? I have no idea. What was it about you that made him and others think that you were destined for
4:03
well either either well jail actually at some point. Yeah. I mean, it was very confusing because the first time he said it
4:13
I was eight years old. And you remember it. Yeah, I remember it well. We were sitting around, and I think it was my sister asked the question
4:19
what do you think I'll be when I grow up, Dad? You'll be a teacher. What do you think I'll be, my brother said
4:24
What do you think I'll be, Dad? You'll be a businessman. What about me, Dad? And he just got serious
4:30
You'll be married with a kid when you're 17. That's what he said
4:34
And I pretended to not know what he meant, but I did know what he meant. because my older brother had already told me about babies and stuff um i mean many years later
4:44
when i first um stopped taking drugs you know and i was doing some therapy and trying to work
4:50
everything out and trying to get well i realized i needed to go and talk to my dad and with the
4:56
therapist we worked out a strategy and i went home and i i said to my dad um dad am i like you
5:02
And he went, nah. I said, nothing like you. Nah, nothing like me. I said, well, who am I like
5:07
He said, you're on McDonald's. That's my mum's side. Gosh. So I don't know
5:12
And I said, what were they like? And this therapist was clever at work. He said, well, I wonder what your dad's relationship was like with them
5:18
So I said to my dad, how did you get on with them? And he said, yeah, all right
5:23
But they thought they were better than everyone else. And they thought I wasn't good enough for my mum
5:28
Wow. Yeah. So maybe that was it. I don't know. But he projected that onto you at eight, in a way
5:34
Maybe. Yeah, it's hard to know what was in his mind. He wouldn't know himself, would he
5:38
That's the thing about therapy. No, exactly. Exactly. You learn all these things about people that you didn't know
5:42
There you go. I can hear the Wolverhampton coming out now. Occasionally. Yeah. Probably when I'm talking to another one
5:48
Kidding stuff. Kiddy. It cost me a fortune for my parents for me to have this accent
5:54
How dare you? We hide it. Hide it well, because you didn't stay in Wolverhampton
5:59
but you went to school there, and that's where you didn't find school easy at all did you no i did initially i wasn't bad i wasn't
6:07
bad but to be honest i don't want to blame my old man because you know i love him and i want to take
6:11
responsibility for myself but there was a hell of a lot of pressure being put on me you know and
6:17
really all of my family but um myself and my my uh one of my brothers we unlike the other three we
6:23
just weren't academic really right but i wasn't too bad to begin with but in the end i just felt
6:28
this is not for me and it's like it's all pressure and i just lost interest in it really
6:33
and so it's classic immigrant experience is that education was the way for you to climb
6:38
totally society's totally dad was totally obsessed with it like passing the 11 plus was life or death
6:45
right i failed yeah yeah and so these are early formative experiences that i mean you're very
6:52
very young to be already feeling like a failure already feeling like you because you spent your
6:58
whole life one of the things you take away from the book is you you really wanted your dad's
7:03
approval but you very rarely did anything that was likely to win it i mean i did do things i did try
7:12
to get his approval you know i did try some people pleasing and doing what he wants and i went to the
7:16
building school which is what he wanted and i went to work for him in his building firm and
7:20
and after a year of I left school at 15 that was the school leaving age then and after working in shops and done and co done and co hats yeah i got a raincoat from there wow and um other things printer and apprenticeship i thought oh he right i go and i went to a
7:38
further education college eventually got a couple of o-levels after a lot of trying but you know
7:43
but eventually i realized it's not for me that yeah and it's just not for me what was for you
7:48
I mean, how? Hairdressing, clothes. Creativity. Creativity, yeah. And where would you get to indulge that
7:56
Well, eventually I found a job hairdressing. I got on a government training course when I was like 20 or 21
8:00
And what did your dad make of that? He didn't say because that time I'd moved
8:04
Right. They were in London by then, and I'd moved back to the Midlands. I'd gone to Birmingham
8:09
And he didn't say anything. So I think it was good that I was kind of away. And you were earning a wage
8:14
Tell me a bit about the years in London. So it goes Wolverhampton, Mayo, Wolverhampton, London
8:21
Yeah, London at the age. Just turned 11. I mean, this is your dad's business, was it
8:25
Your dad's work was taken in. Yeah, they moved him. He was working for Lovett, a big building company
8:30
And they really, he was a site agent by then. So quite a big job. Quite a big job. They really appreciated him
8:34
They had a big job in London, and they said, we'll move the whole family. I'd have thought you'd be excited by the idea of moving to London
8:39
I was. I was. Yeah. I loved it. The big city. Great. I loved it
8:43
Excitement. I loved it. Did you make friends? I struggled. I had a really broad Wolverhampton accent
8:51
Yes. You know, a really broad Wolverhampton accent. And about the second or third day, we had a drama class
8:57
I'd never even heard of the word before in Wolverhampton. And it was a 64 general election was coming up
9:05
and we were all asked to make a speech about who we're supporting. And I said, I'm supporting Labour
9:10
And I gave a speech, why? And the drama teacher, I could tell she was quite charmed by my accent
9:15
and then she said, now tell everybody your name and see where you're from
9:20
and I went the only way I knew how, my name is Kevin Rowland
9:24
and I've come from Wolverhampton and the class just descended into uproar
9:28
and that became like a catchphrase people would be coming up to me, my name is Kevin Rowland
9:32
I've come from Wolverhampton but they got the accent hideously wrong so I had to be a Cockney really quick
9:37
did you do that consciously? you code switched? as they call it these days
9:42
I think they do So you'd have a different accent at home than you did at school
9:47
Would you come back? Probably. Or start shifting? And mum and dad had Irish accents as well
9:51
So there's quite a potpourri going on here. There's a lot. Of influence. Yeah, there is
9:55
There is. There is. And does it mean you didn't know quite where you fitted in? You didn't know quite where you were supposed to slot into things
10:00
I think so, definitely. And I was a different person at home because I was supposed to be really good at home and
10:04
everything like that. Yeah. But I was drawn to the kids who were causing trouble, you know
10:09
Well, when did you start getting into trouble? Well, I was in trouble in primary school
10:13
I was in trouble in secondary school. And by the time I was 13, possibly 14, I think 13
10:20
I made my first appearance at Harrow Juvenile Court. What was that
10:24
I forged a bus pass, train pass, tube and bus pass. Quite creative criminality
10:31
Yeah. It wasn't hitting people over the head or anything like that. I mean, you progressed into petty theft and things that are a bit harder morally to defend
10:39
But you had quite a serious smoking habit to support by this point. I did. I was totally addicted to nicotine
10:45
I had to get money for them every day. So we haven't mentioned music yet. And it was in your home growing up
10:51
But music wasn't running through your childhood like Blackpool through a stick of rock. Not really. I mean, it was
10:56
But whatever you could hear on the radio or, you know, read magazines at school
11:02
But not so much at home. My old man was, work is serious. Music is for enjoyment
11:07
That's separate. It's very separate. You know, it's that kind of thing. And when did you first get, I mean
11:11
So I've got this sense now of a blossoming creativity that is frustrated by expectations
11:19
You're getting into trouble probably as a consequence of that tension inside you. Maybe
11:25
And not enjoying school, not feeling that school is something you're going to be able to ace
11:30
So I don't quite know when music began to present itself to you as something that was going to be your life or your future
11:39
um well it it very young i loved elvis and and you know all the pop singers of the day in the early
11:45
60s and um you know i'd be listening to the radio under the bed to the radio luxembourg to the new
11:52
songs and all of that um and i loved that um and i thought then in those days actually um i mean
12:00
one of the criticisms one of the nuns you know you can get up here and sing a tommy steel song
12:04
No, you won't work out of your lessons. It wasn't Tommy Stigl, it was Elvis, but anyway
12:11
You know, I would get up and sing, and I just thought, it becomes really easy
12:15
When I grow up, I'm going to be a teenager like my older brothers
12:19
and then I'm going to be in a band, I'm going to play guitar, I'm going to sing. I just thought it's really easy. But then what happened, as I went on
12:25
I think I just lost confidence in that. And right through secondary school, I didn't sing
12:29
I thought it's off the agenda for me, I'm going to be doing building or something. but it was only later on i was about 20 21 uh my older brother pat i tried to learn i tried to learn
12:39
a guitar my mum had bought me a guitar a four stringer for my 10th or 11th birthday i had a
12:45
couple of guitar lessons but by then it was just like maths and i just i couldn't concentrate on
12:49
i just couldn't play it really and eventually um when i was 20 and my older brother he was in a
12:55
three-piece social club band in birmingham working men's clubs and he uh the guitarist steve was
13:02
leaving and it gave him six months notice and my brother said if you learn all the songs
13:06
in six months you're in so that was enough incentive, just about was good enough
13:10
after that six months to get on the stage with the band
13:14
and when did you start writing stuff? almost immediately, as soon as you'd mastered
13:18
the guitar, as soon as you could as soon as I could play a few chords and I was going to be like my brother, can I stick this song in
13:23
in the set and he was like well they don't really want to hear that, they want to hear Elvis
13:27
and Beatles, yeah but he let me put one or two in which is kind of him
13:30
you know um you've described that particular brother as being more like a father figure to
13:34
you haven't you said he was so he'd look after you would he yeah and quite a nice introduction to
13:40
performing then really when you've got someone with you definitely you can trust completely
13:45
yeah definitely yeah he was he was a he was a mentor in that way i just want to back up a little
13:50
bit because again something that people of a certain age will struggle to to fully understand
13:54
but the discipline at your catholic schools was was was vicious it was corporal yeah so you'd get
13:59
beaten a lot yeah and and your dad would sometimes take the belts you would this is what i meant when
14:05
you sat down about coming away just feeling protective towards little right right little
14:11
kevin not you kevin yeah yeah but little kevin had had a pretty tough time with it definitely
14:17
definitely and you know the belting was one thing but i think the hardest thing was having to be
14:22
someone else at home yeah just just fit in having to deny my own interest my dad said you're in
14:28
you're interested in the wrong things. It's a direct quote, you know. So I had to make out like I'm interested in other things
14:35
I don't know whether he thought they were effeminate or what he thought. I don't know
14:40
It's an incredible way of putting it, isn't it? You're interested in the wrong things because it gives you nowhere to go
14:46
What are you supposed to do if someone says you're interested in the wrong thing? Because these are genuine, authentic feelings
14:51
and enthusiasm that you have. Passions. I loved them. I loved them. I was drawing pictures of people in clothes and I be trying to comb his hair I sit behind him and he in a chair like you and I sit behind him combing his hair I think he tolerated it you know and he just wasn couldn see anything worth encouraging or worth cherishing or celebrating
15:10
no so you talk about confidence a lot and and yet you'd need to be confident well passions is the
15:17
right word isn't it because it would have to be a passion for you not to surrender it really it was
15:21
if you'd had a choice in the matter you might have been able to be more like what he wanted you to be
15:27
like oh without doubt without doubt but um yeah i suppose it was a passion and to be honest it was
15:34
really you know no offense to my parents i love them of course it was when i got away that i was
15:39
able to get into music be a hairdresser you know do the things i really wanted and that involved
15:44
moving back to the midlands yeah so not moving into soho or something like that which would be
15:48
a slightly more obvious destination than Digbeth or wherever it was. Yeah, I don't think I had the confidence to do that
15:54
You know what I mean? I don't think I had the confidence to go up the clubs or whatever in the West End. I mean, I know a lot of people who did
15:59
Yes. And be involved in whatever scene, you know, but I found that really hard
16:03
And you had Pat to keep an eye on you or to keep an arm around you when you went back to Birmingham
16:08
So talk me about the evolution then of being the guitarist in a working man's club band
16:14
And I mean, you know, the artist you became was incredibly flamboyant, renowned for creativity
16:22
for the look as much as the sound. When did that start developing
16:26
When did you feel that begin to bloom? The clothes? Everything. When did you sort of become the person that you'd always wanted to be
16:35
as opposed to the person that your dad wanted you to be? I think it was when I was doing hairdressing
16:41
and playing in my brother's band. I remember just thinking, God, life is really good
16:45
It was the summer of 76, and I just thought it's really good. I always love the hot weather anyway
16:50
and I'm cutting hair during the day. You know, I really enjoyed it
16:55
especially the creative cuts, interesting cuts that were around at the time, wedges, fireflies and all that
17:00
I loved it. And then I'm playing in my brother's band in the evenings
17:04
and I was really passionate about it. To me, brother and the drummer, I think there was a few beers
17:09
a few quid at the weekend, but I was going, lads, what if we do this and what if we do that, you know
17:14
And were you good? I wasn't a great guitar player but you know I had some good ideas
17:21
and you knew they were good ideas I felt they were good what do you measure that against
17:26
how do you know how do you discover whether or not the good ideas you've got are going to translate
17:29
into a wider audience or are going to bring people in well I wasn't sure but we had a rehearsal once
17:34
we did that Beatles song and I love her and I remember saying to Pat
17:39
I said you know that middle eight bit you know a love like ours will never die
17:49
I said, how about we all just go, a love like, and cut the instruments
17:53
a love like ours, bling, will never die. And then same again, another time
18:00
and then bring it back in at the end. And I was like, oh, that sounds great
18:06
And he said to me, he said, I spoke to mum, and I said, I said, Kev's got more talent in his little finger than the rest of the family
18:11
put together. That's what he said to me. so that's quite moving you know it's quite moving yeah and he so he knew and he knew that possibly
18:18
you might be destined for greater things and he wasn't yeah i'm not sure you you know i said to
18:23
him i think i'd like to get in a band and do this seriously did you sing with him or did i did i
18:28
started singing with him i started doing backing vocals first of all and then um people must have
18:33
noticed the voice no not really i mean the first time i started singing we did it was a cold water
18:39
song called um uh true love i give to you and you give to me true love we did it in rehearsal
18:46
sounded great and at tamworth where i was due to sing it i got up and i sang it and this screeching
18:53
came out and i thought bloody hell i'm not going to sing for a bit so i nerves do you think i think
18:57
it was nerves yeah so i just left it for a bit continued doing backing vocals and then about
19:02
three or four months six months later i did me and bobby mcgee and that sound it was easier to
19:06
singing it sounded a bit better and then i eventually do one one or two more you know
19:09
i started singing more but it still wasn't you know this is a happy period then i mean this is
19:16
this is a nice sort of chapter yeah when yeah you're not kind of setting enormous goals for
19:23
yourself you're just enjoying i was on a stage man i was on a stage singing songs and hairdressing
19:28
was a bit like a stage it was it really was i mean i was like in the there was a glass screen
19:34
at the front of the mirror no a window at the front and i was upstairs cutting hair and dressed
19:40
in these cool clothes it was good so what changed i mean when did you decide i want more i saw a band
19:46
called deaf school just before punk happened and um they were about my age and they were using
19:52
references from the 20s 30s 40s 50s and 60s and had not punk happened when it did i think they
19:57
would have been absolutely massive oh okay yeah it's just one of them things they just got brushed aside yeah um but they were way ahead and all that kind of look and what they were doing kind
20:06
of came back a lot in about 1981 there was just a few years ahead of their time um i saw them
20:12
and that gave me an idea i'm going to form another band you know and while we were forming that band
20:17
punk came along and by the time we were ready to start doing gigs punk happened so um i kind of
20:24
joined in with that really and set up another band yeah and that again we're back to this curious
20:31
contradictory relationship with confidence because you need to be really confident to do
20:36
some of the things that you've done yeah and yet even not your voice not working properly in
20:41
tamworth the confidence didn't come naturally to you in other areas no i think i was driven more
20:46
than confident you know okay yeah i was really driven i was desperate to prove yeah to what to
20:52
prove to anybody like i remember sitting in bed one day and i was you know lying in bed i talk
20:57
about it in the book and saying um if i can just get on top of the pops i'll have something nobody
21:04
else i know has got and i literally thought no one will be able to put me down that's how i felt
21:08
you know which has got to bring you back to your dad hasn't it i suppose so laceratingly critical
21:13
it's almost an on the mat of pier isn't it it sounds like it's cutting yeah you say laceratingly
21:18
and also another thing you talk about is possibly undiagnosed dyslexia and knowing on some level
21:25
that you weren't thick, but being treated as if you were by the world
21:29
Well, that's how it was then. I mean, ADHD or any of that wasn't a thing. You know, you were just, you know, getting in the corner or whatever it was
21:36
You know, that's how it was. They didn't have time. But you knew that you weren't. Well, I sometimes, I often thought I was, you know, maybe I am
21:44
You believed them. Yeah. Well, you keep hearing it, you're going to believe it. But there was a little spark in me, obviously, that believed I wasn't
21:50
I'm going to prove that I'm not. It comes up a lot in these interviews
21:54
Around that age, people, particularly with undiagnosed conditions, the last one was Brian Conley who has gone on to do all sorts of things
22:03
But when he did therapy, partly as a consequence of alcoholism, he discovered that he'd spent his whole life on a stage shouting
22:12
see, I'm not stupid. His teachers had told him he was stupid. His parents were very supportive
22:19
but it was almost like you were written off at an early age and something inside you says
22:23
this isn quite fair this isn quite right that exactly it I was driven to prove myself that what it was all about I was so driven And that probably explains why when things began to go right for you
22:37
were you frightened of it slipping away? Is that why you became so, well, some might say controlling
22:44
I think it's a word you use yourself sometimes. 100%. I became really controlling
22:48
Because you didn't want it to slip through your fingers? Yeah, I was terrified of it slipping through my fingers
22:53
I also was I did doubt my own talent you know in the first band
22:57
I was the first exes you know I was I said to the band
23:05
look I had a mission you know and I said to the guys look we do this we're packing our jobs
23:09
we rehearse all day we're on the dole you could live on it in those days
23:12
and we rehearse 9 to 5 and we'll do well follow this
23:17
and we're going to do well and they all went okay and we did it and then when we started
23:21
to do well I was like is this it is this all there is and i thought i've got nothing to show them now i've got nothing
23:30
there's no carrot to say if we do this this is going to happen and i felt i was losing control
23:34
because initially i was leading yeah i was leading they were prepared to follow me i didn't i wasn't
23:40
that controlling to begin with it but i was leading but um when we started to get successful
23:46
i think i did panic and i just became really controlling and the more i tried to control
23:51
them the more they resisted and the more they resisted the more i tried to control them it's a
23:56
vicious circle yeah it was going nowhere you know you can see it happening yeah well i can now stop
24:00
it you couldn't see it at the time people must have told you what do you mean by controlling i
24:04
mean enforcing you didn't tell everyone what to wear but you you wanted full rehearsal everyone
24:10
had to be sober it was a proper professional operation i pretty much did tell everyone what
24:15
to wear as well yeah i tried to and then they got fed up with that i can't blame them you know i
24:20
I wouldn't want anybody telling me. What do you think it was? I don't know
24:25
There's golf on at the weekend. And this fellow who keeps winning the golf, Scheffler
24:31
he gave an interview and it's upset all the other golfs. He keeps winning everything at the moment. And he said, it's not very fulfilling
24:37
He said, I've won it now. And I get two minutes of feeling fantastic. And then, and oddly, you're reminding me of him a bit at the moment
24:46
That idea of I've got it. This thing I always want. I mean, top of the pops
24:50
and then suddenly it's not changed the way that everything feels. Yeah
24:56
And I feel guilty even saying that because as I'm saying it, I'm conscious that it's so many people's dream and it was my dream
25:03
and I regret that I wasn't able to relax and enjoy it more
25:07
It would have been a lot better for me and for everyone else around me. It's a recurring theme, isn't it
25:13
not being able to enjoy it while things were good. Yeah. Where do you think that comes from
25:17
Catholic guilt? a bit too obvious knowing that your dad's not that impressed maybe maybe
25:26
I mean my dad was never really happy with whatever he achieved you know what I mean
25:30
he never seemed really happy I mean you know what I mean
25:34
we were in Harrow north west London and loads of kids at school their dads were builders as well sure
25:38
you know they had small building furnaces just like my dad's and they seemed a lot more chilled
25:42
their dads do you know what I mean and my dad was always work, work, work
25:47
I would work for him And it would be long hours. It would be rarely any kind of dinner break
25:53
You know, it was, come on, lads, work. And you'd come home exhausted. And that's kind of how it was, you know
25:59
I don't know. Was he frustrated? Was there something else he wanted to be? Was he a frustrated intellectual or a frustrated artist of some sort
26:05
He probably was. I think one of my sisters asked him what would he like to have been
26:09
He said he'd like to have been a solicitor, a lawyer or something. Right, yeah. Yeah. So very conscious of where class and background and education had put him
26:18
I think so. I think he really was, yeah. Which makes it even harder for him to understand someone like you
26:23
who wants to fly off in completely different directions. Yeah, yeah. He was obsessed with security as well, you know
26:30
Financial security. I think so. Yeah. I mean, even like about 10 or 15 years before he passed
26:36
he said to me, you might have been better off if you stayed with me in the building. I said, Dad, I had a number one single in America
26:43
And he said, I know that, but there's no security in that game. Well, he had a point, didn't he
26:47
Sort of a point. Who knows? If I'd been in the building, God knows what I'd have done
26:51
But you've also talked about thinking that Dexys should have been bigger
26:57
that you should have been the most influential band of your generation. I mean, this is again why I sat down and used the word protective
27:04
You never stop beating yourself up, do you? I think you have now a bit
27:09
In the book, do you mean? Well, generally in life. You know what I mean? Even when you're in the hate. from me then
27:13
I do know it's contagious isn't it oh yeah but you feel
27:20
you feel missed opportunities even as so then you said with great confidence I had a number
27:23
one record in America yeah and yeah at the time it was almost
27:29
like it wasn't reaching the parts you expected it to reach I think it didn't it's crazy
27:33
it's not fair it's not fair I remember when it happened when we
27:36
got a number one in America everyone else was celebrating we were on tour somewhere in Belgium or somewhere like that
27:40
and everyone was celebrating and I didn't That was Come On Eileen
27:44
Yeah. Because Gino went to number one in this country. It did. So you became quite a big deal quite quickly
27:50
Yeah. But you never really felt like you were a big enough deal or you never really felt like a big deal at all
27:55
I felt like a big deal at all and I always felt the pressure to do the next thing
27:59
What are we going to do next? I've got to do it. I felt that
28:04
And I felt alone with that, really. Did you? Yeah. Because I've been watching as a kid
28:08
I don't think I realised Exes was a band band when I was young
28:14
What did you think it was? I just thought it was you with some musicians
28:18
Okay. And that's what you mean by leading and that's what you mean by the pressure of feeling
28:22
I mean, I was tiny. I'm 20 years younger than you, so I wasn't paying that much attention
28:27
when it came on the telly. But it wasn't like one of those bands
28:33
where everybody had a clear role and knew what they were supposed to be doing
28:38
Even then, as a viewer of Top of the Pops, it looked like your project
28:44
It looked like you were in charge. Right. Well, I mean, I led the first band. I think it was a band to begin with
28:48
It was a band. But then when that band broke up, it was, you know, very much, okay
28:55
I think I had all the power then. Yeah. So I was kind of saying, we're going to do this
28:59
We're going to wear this. Yeah. Why did you keep the name? Why did you not just go solo at that point
29:06
I considered that. What happened is the first band, like I was talking about previously
29:14
where I was being really controlling, eventually they got really fed up. And Kevin Archer said to me
29:18
he called me and he said, we were in Zurich, last leg of a European tour
29:23
and he said, they want to carry on without you, Kev. And I was like, relief
29:28
And then like an hour later, one of them called my room and said, can I meet you in reception
29:32
And he said, we want to carry on, Texas, without you. we're going to get another singer and again i was just like what a relief and i could breathe
29:41
because all of the stress just left me really yeah yeah it all just left me i was like oh it's over
29:47
thank god because i've been holding so tight onto everything yes anyway and then i was just like
29:52
great and then the next day i think we did this interview with this guy from le mans le mans yeah
29:57
french newspaper yeah and he just said the french newspaper album he said he said i've just wrote a rave review he said it's the best thing since the
30:03
first roxy album and he said i've just wrote a review that means you have to buy this album
30:08
for lamont i was like shit that's great and i started to think god dexies really means something
30:13
and after a couple of days i was thinking shit i ain't letting them take my band and um i'm gonna form another one right you know and i was like kev are you in jim are you in yeah
30:22
and they went yeah and so the other five went off and they tried to form tried to do it as dexies
30:27
me night runners but I registered the name really quickly after all I'd thought of it yeah of course
30:31
in their company but I'd thought of it so um I carried on probably the wrong thing to do I think
30:37
it'd have been better if I'd paused taken a breath and looked at what had happened but I didn't I just
30:43
I was driven by them trying to take my band I was just on this mission to form another one better
30:48
why do you think you needed that journalist to make you appreciate how good the album was
30:56
I don't know. I really don't know. Because the creative process is a strange one, isn't it
31:02
Some people need external validation. Some people, they always say Van Gogh didn't sell a single painting in his lifetime
31:08
but he cracked on with it, didn't he? So he didn't need... True
31:12
As you kind of did then at that point. Well, he was driven, wasn't he, Van Gogh? He was, yeah
31:17
Yeah, completely driven. But he didn't need anyone. I mean, you didn't realise you'd recorded a masterpiece
31:22
until other people started telling you that you had. Yeah. Yeah, I've just felt it was as good as we could get it
31:29
You know, and that's all you can ask for when you leave the studio. You know, if you've got a vision for something and then you fulfill it
31:34
And with any luck, it quite often turns out a bit better than you thought
31:38
So for people who don't know or for people who've discovered you later in life, after you've been through addiction and stuff like that
31:46
tell them what the band was like. Tell them what Dex's Midnight Runners were bringing to the market
31:53
or to the screens that no one else had previously. That's really..
32:00
I felt that when we started in 1978, the plan was we're going to use soul music
32:07
because soul music was not hip in 1978. You were not reading about soul music in the NME
32:12
It was all guitar, bass and drums, maybe post-punk, industrially type things
32:17
and we thought we're going to bring some emotion back into music. But we're going to do it in a new way
32:21
We're going to do it in a contemporary way. It's not going to be your standard soul
32:26
We're going to have different kinds of lyrics, talk about different things, not just love or whatever
32:31
And that's what we did. And what were you listening to? Well, I was listening to it
32:34
I went back to all the old 60s soul records, Aretha Franklin, Otis Redding
32:40
to study the arrangements and study what they'd done to try and take inspiration from that
32:46
And obviously I was influenced by what was going on at the time as well, punk and everything
32:51
but I wanted to... So taking it very seriously. Totally. And having like a plan, as it were, almost
32:57
100% of the plan. Knowing what you wanted to put together. And that reached into also the aesthetic
33:02
That also reached into how you wanted it to look. Totally. And, you know, you mentioned earlier that I was saying
33:07
like, if we'd have followed the original path, we could have been the most, perhaps biggest band of the 80s
33:12
I don't know. You know, I don't want to get into too much of, I could have been someone, I could have been the contender
33:16
But the fact of it is, when we started off in 1978, summer of 78, I had the vision
33:21
I had the feeling that after punk, it just felt, punk was over by then
33:25
Yeah. It felt grubby. I felt dirty. I wanted to dress up
33:29
I wanted to look good. Yeah. I was inspired by Roxy music. If there was a prototype, it was original Roxy 72
33:36
We're using the 1950s as an influence, but creating something new with it
33:41
Dressed great, you know, so I thought, okay, we're going to dress up. And other people started to have that feeling as well
33:47
like the Blitz was not about, but shortly after it started, you know
33:51
Yeah. And we had that look and it was going really well
33:55
And we felt we were ahead of everybody. Do you know what I mean? We just had this mission and we rehearsed for six months
34:00
We started doing gigs. First gig was in Wolverhampton. We went into a pub. We said to the landlord, can we just play here on a Saturday afternoon for free
34:07
Yeah, all right then. Yeah. So there's all these football fans in there. I'm a Wolves fan anyway
34:11
But we're dressed in all this basically new romantic clothes in early 79
34:17
like a year before that happened. and the audience, you know, were trying to, you know, have goes at us
34:25
and I didn't care because I just felt we're on this mission. You don't get us
34:29
Loads of other people will. We've got this thing under our belt now. We've got another gig
34:33
A few technical difficulties have been ironed out. Job done. Next gig
34:38
And that's how we rolled. And we were just building an audience in Birmingham. The specials who were further on than us
34:46
they hadn't released their first big single, Gangsters, but they were about to they started coming to our gigs now they were influenced by the 60s the
34:53
whole scar thing yeah but they were wearing like 60s clothes as well now we thought that was too
34:58
far right we were wearing so two-toned yeah we were wearing basically futuristic clothes right
35:03
uh but our music was influenced by the 60s they started coming to our gigs and we liked them and
35:08
we went to their gigs you know and they said can you support us in manchester so we went along and
35:12
supported them in manchester similar thing happened as in wolverhampton the crowd i don't know what
35:17
They thought whether we're effeminate or what, but they started on us. They started trying to pull my microphone and, you know
35:23
and all of that and a fight ensued. Right. And we had to be locked in the dressing room for our own safety
35:29
because they went and got all their mates. There was about 30 guys, apparently, the bouncers told us
35:32
patrolling the club, looking for us. So a few months later, the specials released Gangsters
35:38
Yeah. It's a big hit. And they phoned us up and said
35:42
we're recording our album and we want to use your brass section. and I said no way because it's our sound and if we give it to you then we're going to look second
35:49
best by the time we put something out we hadn't got anything out by then hardly anybody knew us
35:53
except in Birmingham and they said well if you don't let us use your brass section we got the
35:57
message back through the management uh you can't come on our tour on our two-tone tour I said we
36:03
don't want to go on the tour your audience had lynched us because it was so singular we got the
36:08
message back then okay uh it doesn't matter that you won't let us use your brass section for the
36:13
album we want you on the tour anyway and i sent the message back we don't want to go on the tour
36:17
you know we want to do our own thing and we turned down and offered to be on two-tone records for the
36:21
same reason yeah and you didn't have a deal at this point we didn't have a deal so it was really
36:27
confident quite ballsy that was it was and there was guys in the band going what's he doing we've
36:32
just been offered a record deal yeah you know but you knew i did know in your bones i did know in
36:37
my bones i felt it yeah but then i got the message back from uh dave cork was our manager in birmingham
36:43
and bernard roads who had managed the clash had formed a little record company called oddball
36:48
and we were signing to them we got the message back from bernard through david saying you have
36:54
to go on that tour this is going to be the biggest tour of the year if you're not on it
36:58
you're probably gonna this is your chance you're probably gonna lose it so i started to waver
37:03
I started to doubt myself and I think how am I gonna blow it here You know I might be in too obstinate So I called a band meeting but I already made up my mind really And there was only one guy in the band you know to change the look basically
37:18
to go on the tour. There was only one guy in the band, Jeff Bly, who just said, that's a real shame
37:22
because the whole thing was a vision. But anyway, we changed, we changed and we went on that tour
37:27
and we kind of come up with that New York docker look, which would be just about acceptable
37:32
to their audience, but would give us some individuality. And it was a good look
37:36
but I mean you know a year later the whole new romantic
37:42
thing exploded and we were kind of made to look old fashioned really
37:46
so yeah I mean you really take quite a forensic approach to the industry don't you
37:53
is it? at the time you are, you're thinking about these things and you're seeing that as a trade off
37:59
but really what you're constantly doing is trying to hold on to your own authenticity
38:05
in a world that doesn't really want you to. Exactly, in a world that's pressurised me not to
38:10
And that's the same thing that happened at home. It totally is, I can see that
38:14
You're trying to be something that you're not. And that compromise kind of felt familiar
38:19
I was like, okay. Oh boy. Do you know what I mean? Of course I do now. It's weird
38:23
Isn't it? Yeah. And that's why the success didn't... Probably. Didn't slap as hard as it should have been
38:29
Yeah, because I felt we'd cut off our wings really to be halved our potential really
38:33
It didn't help that it worked. Well, except that you then got that path not taken thing going on
38:39
in the back of your mind all the time. Yeah, yeah. I wasn't even aware of it
38:43
No, of course. That's how much denial I was in. I was just like, oh, them bands are shit
38:48
They're lightweight compared to us, you know. Yeah. It was only about 20 years later
38:51
Actually, when I really started to write the book, I started to think, hang on. And I saw it all, you know
38:57
Yeah. Because when I started to write, because I started it 20 years ago. I've not been writing for 20 years. Sure
39:01
but I started it and I started to write down all the ideas and then I realised and it's percolating
39:05
yeah and the more I looked the more it all came out yeah
39:08
it was a revelation really well yeah I can see that and for you
39:12
I mean it's a revelation for the readers but it's a revelation
39:15
for the writer as well yeah a lot of it yeah and stuff begins to make sense
39:19
and I suppose if you were carrying all that it becomes less surprising
39:25
that you fell apart later when the band had kind of dissolved
39:30
and the solo career hadn't kicked on in the way that you would have wanted
39:35
you didn't really know what to do with yourself. And as for a lot of people before you
39:39
cocaine became the crutch, as it were. It became the number one priority
39:43
Yeah. It was like the band had been my addiction kind of thing
39:48
for about six, seven, eight years, you know. And when that was sort of over, that phase
39:55
I was just like, it just became, somebody gave me a line of cocaine
39:59
It was just like, yeah, it really did something for me. I don't have to worry about that for the next hour or two hours or whatever it is
40:09
Don't have to worry about the band. I don't have to worry about anything. Exactly
40:13
Yeah, yeah, yeah. All of the anxiety had gone. I started to go out because what happened is when I'd been doing Dexies
40:21
I hardly socialised. It was everything to me. I remember one New Year's Eve, everybody was going
40:26
I just sat in, I didn't have anywhere to go. you know the band was everything to me it was my life and when that was sort of over you know
40:33
it was just like and i started to go out and think i want to go out and enjoy myself i was so
40:37
anxious that cocaine gave me confidence initially yeah of course every con all the confidence that
40:43
it gave me initially it took away with interest you didn't help yourself in other ways i mean
40:50
that those instincts that you had those into it that knowledge in your bones of what would work
40:56
and what wouldn't work. I mean, refusing to put a single out on Don't Stand Me Down
41:03
That was quite bold. Yeah, I mean, initially it was like the idea was
41:07
there's a song on the album called This Is What She's Like, which the original demo was seven minutes long
41:12
If you took the one-minute conversation off at the front, it would have been... That's spoken word in the middle or at the top of the track
41:18
Yeah. If you took the spoken word thing off at the front, it would have been six minutes
41:22
And the original idea was a six-minute single, you know a real piece of work that goes through different moods and i just thought it's going to
41:29
blow people away i still think it's a great song yeah and uh and a bohemian rhapsody had done that
41:33
in the 70s you know of course and that's what i was thinking and then i said it to the manager
41:37
this is going to be a great single we'll put out this 12 inch single or six minute single
41:41
and he said i'll not release a single at all i was like oh i thought that'd be good because i was
41:47
feeling the pressure of doing you know going to america and doing interviews all day long and being
41:52
Mr. Pop, that's what we turned into after Eileen, and it was just
41:56
relentless, and I just thought, the bands in the 70s, like Led Zeppelin
42:00
and Pink Floyd, they just did albums, and, you know, they were
42:04
credible, and that's what I wanted, really. You know, I wanted away
42:08
from the pop thing, you know. Yeah, so had Eileen become a millstone then, by this point
42:12
I guess, you know, I hate to say that, because I'm grateful for it now, but I felt that at the time
42:16
it got bigger than the band. But it was so big. It was so big. I mean, it's one of those once-a-decade songs, in a way, isn't it, really
42:22
that just defines, goes beyond the band. Oh, it's bigger than us
42:27
It's something else now, isn't it? Yeah. It's out there, isn't it? When did that start happening
42:32
When did you feel that ceasing to be yours, running out of your control, as it were
42:37
I think when around 83, 84, a year or two later, when I'd only be asked about that by people in the street
42:44
you know what I mean? Yeah. It was only that one. I was like, oh. That must have been tough. It was
42:48
It was, because I knew there were other ones, you know. And because of creativity
42:52
was arguably at its peak and everyone's looking in the rearview mirror yeah yeah tricky yeah all
42:59
of which makes more sense of why by 1988 you're in you're in a bright old mess aren't you yeah
43:05
you describe yourself as a maniac it's not quite homeless but landlords turned off your
43:13
well electricity company turned off the electric and yeah some i got to make
43:17
He wired it up past the meter, so I had electric. But, yeah, I wasn't opening bills and all that kind of thing
43:25
I mean, how much of that do you remember? A fair bit
43:29
You do? A fair bit, because I'm in recovery now for a long time, since August 28th, 1993
43:34
A big part of that is looking at your past. And I've had mentors, you know, sponsors who've taken me through the programme
43:41
And I do now do that with other people. And I share my experience. And every time you do, you remember more, you know
43:47
Of course. And would you have been able to, I mean, I don't think that's the right question
43:52
Would you have been able to write the book if it wasn't for recovery? Oh, I don't think I would
43:56
No, I don't think. I think that's rhetorical almost. But would you, did you always have your childhood so close to the surface
44:05
No. Before you got addicted, would you feel connected to the younger you in the way that you do in the book
44:11
No, no, that's all. That's interesting. No, completely. So you have to start unraveling it all to get better
44:17
Yeah. Yeah Yeah I had no awareness of it It was all denial Total denial What prompted that August the 28th moment What was the Well just to say on that the reason it was denial i think it was too much to face because i just
44:31
thought you know my dad was down on me he was telling me i was different to the others maybe
44:35
there's something wrong with me so i just brushed that to the do you know what i mean i just brushed
44:39
that to the side i wasn't it's a lot to face that you know of course it is yeah so it was only much
44:44
later i started to look at that and when you start looking at that things actually start making sense
44:50
and you can start the business of getting better. Yeah. What was the pivot point
44:55
I mean, I don't want to be cliche, but they always say you've got to be rock bottom, haven't you
44:59
I mean, I had so many rock bottoms. I mean, I'd lost my home. Do you know what I mean
45:04
I'd been bankrupted by the government. I had to read about that. You know, it's no big deal
45:08
but lots of people have to go through that. But, you know, all of that. And all happened in the space of a few months
45:13
So many things. But I was just in total denial. I was in the grip of something more powerful than me
45:19
You know, my girlfriend leaving me. And that didn't stop me. And then one day, it wasn't even the worst day
45:27
I'd already been to the recovery meetings. I'd been told about them by a friend who'd been just like me
45:32
And I just thought, I don't know if I want that. And one day, I just carried on doing it
45:38
And I was about to phone the dealer. It's just another day
45:44
It wasn't the worst day by any means. It was just another day. I just can't do this anymore
45:49
I just can't live like this anymore and I just thought I'm going back to the meetings tomorrow
45:54
and this time I'm going to do what they tell me I'm just going to listen and learn
45:59
and did you manage to bring the drive that you'd brought to so many other areas of your life
46:05
to your recovery yeah and I still do yeah you do I'm notorious for it in the meetings
46:11
you know I'm hardcore you know but I love it but you have to be it's the best part of my life
46:16
Is it? Yeah. Yeah. And has it allowed you to be kinder to yourself about what went before
46:21
about how much you did actually achieve instead of focusing so much on what you didn't
46:25
Definitely. Definitely. And I'm grateful for what's happened now. I'm grateful for it
46:29
You know, I'm grateful for the money. Yeah, of course. That I get, you know, from songs I wrote years ago
46:35
I'm grateful for the life I've got, you know. Yeah, and I do work on that
46:39
As you got better, you got back into writing and performing. again you know you certainly weren't compromising much when you um when you made my beauty were you
46:52
sort of or indeed when you started performing was there never a little bit of you that thought
46:59
i might i might try and be other people's idea of what a star should look like rather than my
47:07
own idea or had you tried that before and decided you know i think with the uh clothes compromise
47:14
yeah um similarly with dex's mark with dex's mark mark one yeah yeah yeah yeah with that and also
47:24
like the first record they our first single dance dance which was a good single they messed the mix
47:30
up you know and they'd mixed it without us knowing and you know what i mean so that was a that was a
47:34
that felt like a, God, you've got to be careful. Because when I grew up, I was thinking, if I get in a band
47:40
when I'm older, I'll have a song maybe that's half decent and then some producer
47:43
will come along and make it great. And what I've discovered is that actually a lot of them
47:47
just mess it up. If you're not really careful, there's some good ones but they're very hard to find
47:52
Anyway, so I always had this thing about compromising. Sorry, I forgot where we were going. Well
47:57
I'm thinking about the dress and going on stage in a dress and thinking that
48:01
the more you know about what had gone before, the easier it is to understand why you weren't going to take it off
48:07
because that would feel like another compromise even though it invited quite a lot of negativity at the time
48:14
It did. And that surprised me. I don't know why. Perhaps it shouldn't have done, but it did
48:18
But I think what it is, is once I got clean from drugs especially
48:25
any kind of intuitive idea, which the dress was, the way I was bringing some more femininity into what I was wearing
48:32
just felt so right and natural, intuitively. You're back to trusting your instincts
48:37
I guess, exactly. And so I did it. I think I probably could have..
48:42
I did think about toning it down. Not so much toning it down, but I mean, I made the decision in the photo shoot
48:48
to drop the kind of chest and pull the kind of skirt up
48:52
which wasn't my original plan, but a part of me thought, them, you know, I'm just going to..
48:58
This will get the cat among the pigeons. you know so yeah that was that
49:03
and then you come back around again with the film you do
49:08
Nowhere is Home and you do Let the Record Show which brings you back
49:15
to success yeah that must have been nice did you enjoy it more that time
49:23
more that time, a lot of anxiety around the performing, massive anxiety around the
49:28
performing yeah and I still do even as far as Glastonbury last year
49:31
I was nervous but these days when I get out on the stage I'm just a whole lot
49:35
better you know once I start hearing that it's sounding alright you know and I get
49:39
that feedback from the audience I'm a lot better once it starts just the but I'm working on
49:43
that it's a lot better than it was you know I love that still a work in progress never sitting on your laurels never
49:49
kind of I mean cashing the checks of course but trying to write
49:53
new material as well well I have to I mean I couldn't do the whole thing of just
49:59
remember us remember us I couldn't do that it always has to be about
50:04
the new stuff and the last album The Feminine Divine the first half of the show
50:10
they were all theatre shows the first half of the show was the whole new album
50:15
and not just played but acted out because it had a narrative to it
50:19
and then the second half of the show was the old stuff and also
50:22
talking about the theme of being kind to yourself a track called
50:26
It's Alright Kevin it's fairly easy to decode yeah isn't it yeah it's all right kevin yeah yeah exactly telling yourself that
50:35
sometimes yeah just just that period between those two between both sides now and the feminine divine
50:40
when you've described yourself as having burnt out when when sort of the end of 2016 you've
50:46
talked about having run out of energy run out of vitality um and if i suppose therapy and recovery
50:53
involves looking after yourself mentally if i've read the story correctly this is when you started
50:56
to really look after yourself physically as well. I think so. I think so. I just felt burnt out
51:01
not so much from the music, in fact, not from music, but just from the music business
51:05
at the end of 2016. And my mum was very ill and she passed at the end of that year
51:10
And after that, I just thought, oh man, I just can't face doing music right now
51:13
I just can't face it. Because you never phone it in and because you never just
51:18
go through the back catalogue. If you did, and there's some very lovely people
51:23
who can turn up and do their greatest hits and barely break a sweat but i don't think you were ever going to be one of them were you no
51:29
no i guess that true yeah i i and actually i i i realized this in the last few years i can actually repeat myself you know the idea of doing it it just it just won it just won work so um yeah i just thought i need to get away and i did go away i went to thailand and i started doing different courses and working on myself and
51:48
my body more and eventually the time came and i just thought hmm i mean i'd like to write something
51:54
now did you always know it would no i didn't you thought it might be over i thought it might be
51:59
over i just thought i mean and i can live with that you thought oh totally i live with that i
52:02
I just wanted to be away from it. Like I went on this course in Thailand and it was really good
52:07
And I said to the instructor, I think one of the guys had told him I was a musician
52:11
because I wouldn't really tell people. And I said to him, I love this course
52:16
It's really great. It's really helping me. He went, yeah. He said, this will help you with your music
52:19
I was like, no, I don't want to be doing music. And then eventually it felt right
52:24
What's that moment like when you feel something bubbling back up to the surface in the back of it
52:29
Oh, it's good. You thought might have gone forever. It's good because it's like enthusiasm. comes back. It's like a vitality inside
52:34
of me comes up, you know. I've got something to say. Yeah. Of course. And then when I wrote Feminine Divine
52:40
I sat down and I just wrote that song. It just came out. All the lyrics fully
52:44
formed, you know. It's a very vulnerable album but I guess it had to be. Feminine Divine
52:49
Yeah. And you're still very interested in masculinity and femininity. Yeah. It's almost like
52:57
we'll never know exactly who we are but you're never going to stop
53:00
personally trying to find out exactly who you are i suppose so i mean i go through periods you know
53:06
i don't want to become self-obsessed and over ytical and but it's curiosity it's not
53:10
self-obsession no how can you not be curious about what's made you who you are yeah and yeah
53:15
and i go through different phases sometimes i want to feel a bit masculine and other times more
53:20
feminine you know and society hasn't and certainly not an irish upbringing would not have encouraged
53:25
that kind of worldview or that attitude and so we're back again to having to pretend to be
53:29
something that you weren't yeah i can remember there was a time when my sisters were sort of
53:33
dressing up and i went upstairs and got a dress and put it on yeah and i came down not to me dad
53:39
because he'd explode but my mum even was just like you know yes not a good look be careful
53:46
be careful there you go so i mean you're you're in your 70s now in your early 70s you don't look
53:53
it thank you well is that what's that down to apart from giving up cocaine what else is that
53:57
down to the physical stuff looking after yourself yeah looking after yourself reasonably healthy
54:02
diet exercising you know more qigong than the gym yeah a bit of gym but mainly qigong i'm lazy you
54:09
know i have to push myself to do it well you're not like i mean one thing you're not as well
54:13
there's different i've gone through periods of just inactivity and physical exertion you should
54:18
can be daunting but creativity isn't a question of being lazy if it's there you've got to do it
54:23
And if it's not, you won't. Yeah. So when you, I mean, we haven't heard anything about ambition today, except two things
54:31
The first, that you wanted to be on top of the pops one day and linked to that, the idea that that would mean that everything was okay now
54:40
If I can get on top of the pops, that will show everyone. And then it didn't work
54:45
Have you had ambition since? I mean, have you ever, have you got any boxes that you wanted to tick or haven't ticked
54:53
I mean, yeah. I mean, I'm, you know, I'm ambitious. I've always been
54:58
And every time we do a new record, you know, I have to try and curb it
55:02
Yeah. You know, because you just don't know what's going to happen when you put it out there. Of course
55:05
You know what I mean? Because when I write something that I think is good, I think, God, everyone's going to think this is amazing
55:11
But they don't. They might not get to hear it. s. They don't. A lot of them don't even get to hear it
55:16
Of course. That's the problem. Yeah, that must be frustrating. There's so few outlets now. Of course
55:20
Yeah, it is frustrating. It is frustrating. It's in an ageist business, and it's not even, you know, even younger artists, it's difficult for them now
55:29
Very much so. Yeah, it's changed a lot. They've ruined it. Well, I mean, no one did it on purpose
55:35
No one did it on purpose. No one knew what streaming was going to do, did they? No, not just streaming, but I mean, look, Radio 1 was this sort of cuddly show that played any record
55:45
You know, it was down to them. They just chose whatever they wanted. But, you know, they were pretty good at choosing
55:51
They didn't care if you were hit, but they'd play shut up of your face as much as they'd play the specials
55:57
Do you know what I mean? But they just thought what was good, and that's what they did
56:01
And I remember going to America in 83, 84, and all they were doing was just playing stuff that was already hits or old stuff
56:08
And I just thought, well, this has got no future. How interesting. This has got no future. Gosh
56:12
Where's all the new stuff? That was the future. Well, that's become the future for us now
56:16
We're there. So there's no real outlets now. Stuff on social. They've killed it
56:19
top of the pops was this incredible thing i'm sounding like an old bloke but what can i tell
56:24
you you're talking to another slightly less old bloke well look top of the pops was this amazing
56:29
show they worked down it was it was a formula they worked down from number one the number one
56:34
record was always on on the show yeah this was the format and then they worked down every record
56:40
that was going up the chart if you were static or going down yeah you weren't on the show but if
56:44
your record was going up working down from number one you were on and it sometimes went down to
56:49
number 45 or whatever yeah and it was just brilliant because everyone had a chance everyone
56:54
had a chance you know and it's not like that now but there you go that does sound like lamenting
56:59
the past but what can you do i think i think that was good lamenting it for yourself you're also
57:02
lamenting it for for young artists yeah yeah i think it's very difficult now close to impossible
57:09
yeah it's almost like distribution of wealth you're going to have a tiny number of absolutely
57:14
enormous artists and hardly anybody else yeah which is kind of where we are what was glastonbury
57:19
like last year oh man great was that a real moment a real moment i just was buzzing when i got off
57:25
do you know what i mean i mean all the way through it i'm thinking okay this could go wrong it's okay
57:30
you know what i mean but i was on it and it worked you know and i just got flooded loads of messages
57:35
and reviews and after it i was just so i couldn't sleep or anything i was just so excited you know
57:40
so happy it just felt like something you know that's lovely yeah when are you at your happiest
57:45
do you think? Moments like that? I think so. Yeah. It's what you were put on this earth to do
57:49
Well, yeah, maybe. Yeah. Bless Me Father by Kevin Rowland is out now
57:57
It's a hefty old book. It doesn't pull any punches. It's all in there
58:01
All of you. Is it? If you put your whole everything. Yeah, man. I wasn't going to edit my life, you know
58:05
I love that. Come on. You can't edit your life. And of course, the subtext of Bless Me Father for people raised like us is for I have sinned
58:13
but you've also atoned. Yeah, I have. I have. I've made amends
58:20
Even the bankruptcy thing, you know, all the creditors were paid off
58:23
I'm glad about that, you know. And you're in a better place now than... Ever
58:28
Yeah? Yeah, not perfect, but, you know, that'll do. Kevin Rowland, thank you
58:32
Thanks, James. Thanks, man. Thank you
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