Up next in 10
00:16 Sports finance expert Tariq Panja explains the latest developments in the Man City scandal with Andrew Marr.
03:48 Iain Dale's Cross Question panel (Oli Dugmore, Ella Whelan, Catherine MacLeod and Dov Forman) discuss Andy Burnham's comments about the Man City ownership.
08:34 Football finance expert Kieran Maguire reacts to news that Etihad are considering suing the Premier League over their ruling.
13:17 Human rights lawyer acting in the UAE, David Haigh, explains why he phoned the police over the scandal.
Ex-Manchester City manager Pep Guardiola has broken his silence and backed his former club after they were found guilty of breaching financial rules.
Guardiola wrote on the Pep Team social media accounts that "here more than ever" with its supporters.
it comes after the Premier League said on Tuesday that it found the club guilty of almost all 115 charges related to breaches of financial rules between 2009-10 and 2017-18.
The league said Manchester City arranged "sham" contracts with several of its sponsors.
The Spaniard left the club at the end of last season after a glittering ten-year spell as manager, wrote: "I want every single @ManCity fan to know I am here; more than ever."I am, always have been, always will, be behind my club, my owner, my chairman, Ferran, the players, staff, Enzo and you, our unique supporters.
"Let me be clear: we will get through this together.
"I love you all."
City were found to have engaged in an almost £1billion scheme to either inflate revenues or reduce costs through a series of "sham" arrangements to avoid breaching Premier League and UEFA financial regulations.
Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp
#andrewmarr #iaindale #mancity #LBC
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0:00
The owners of the club being forced to sell it and then being banned from owning another club in the English football pyramid
0:05
I think it is that egregious, that is the scale of things that we should... Well, and there could well be criminal charges
0:09
I reported the Premier League report to the Manchester police. The Manchester police were very good. They called me back within about half an hour
0:16
It's a very tangled, very complicated financial series of fraud allegations. But does it really affect the game on the pitch
0:22
it does effectively you're accusing this all-conquering team of corrupting you know the united kingdom or england's national sport for for a decade and what makes it more
0:36
complicated i guess is it's owned by the brother of the ruler of the united arab emirates essentially
0:42
an ally of the uk so if you look at it in those dimensions this is important when you talk about
0:47
it's in fact what what's happening on the pitch um how do you get players on the pitch how do you
0:51
put the best team out you spend huge amounts of money and what we saw last night in the the this
0:58
um in this panel's report 40 page report it was actually stunning it essentially said almost 900
1:06
million pounds of disguised sponsorship income was was um imagine a uh like when a petrol pump
1:14
the pump being pumped into squirted into manchester city and turning them into this behemoth
1:20
into this all-conquering football team. And, you know, we're sitting here, you know
1:25
you and I are talking here in Britain. It's one of our biggest soft power exports to the world
1:31
And what you're saying is that this thing, we can't believe what we've seen
1:35
And so, you know, if I am the manager or owner, rather
1:39
of Westminster Wanderers or some other club, and I am beaten heavily by Manchester City a couple of years ago
1:46
the implication is that the players that put the goals past my goalie
1:52
and the guy that trained them, maybe Pep Guardiola could not have been afforded necessarily by managers of City
1:58
if it hadn't been for the fraudulent squirting of money into the club is that the basic implication
2:03
Certainly with the rules, because the thing with English football and the Premier League over the last decade or so and a bit longer
2:08
is there are cost control regulations and the thing with football, it's a game of rules
2:13
whether on the pitch, you see the referee used to be the black shirt with the whistle and the linesmen or the officials on the side
2:20
And it's 11 players on each scene. But if you quietly say to one team, hey, guys, you can have 12
2:27
yes, there's a problem. And here you have a team that clearly, according to this verdict
2:33
which Manchester City are appealing, but today we can say that they have cheated the rules
2:38
and not just in a small way, in an enormous way. And they have been a huge, huge club, of course
2:43
And even I have heard that Pep Guardiola is the greatest manager the game has seen for a very, very long time
2:49
He's been speaking today. What has he said? He has. He's basically put a message out saying, you know, we stay together
2:58
You know, I love you to the team, to the to the owners
3:02
We stand together and we effectively we will fight this. And this has been the case for the last eight years
3:08
And this is the kind of stain or the shadow that's been hanging over the Premier League
3:12
which, don't forget, was the most popular league for the last eight years. This investigation has taken that long
3:18
Does this tarnish Guardiola's legacy? How does he come out of it, do you think
3:22
It's hard to think that it doesn't tarnish anybody that it touches. He was there with this club
3:29
It tarnishes him, it tarnishes the UAE, and it sadly tarnishes the Premier League
3:34
and the achievements of one of the best football teams English football has seen in more than 100 years
3:40
The victories they had, the Premier League titles, European Cups, all of that has been sullied by this 40-page report
3:48
Andy Burnham's premiership has been based on greater fairness. So why has he today spoken in favour of the greatest cheats in the history of English football
3:58
No, I won't say. The Prime Minister has said he would be really concerned if the Emirati rulers who own Manchester City decided to sell the club after the ruling that they broke financial rules for several years, adding that they have been such a huge partner in the building of modern Manchester through the development of the Etihad Stadium and the area around it
4:22
Oli. Yeah, so there's a lot of parts to this question, right
4:28
And I think perhaps the foundational myth on the political sense is that Andy Burnham would like us to believe that the story of Manchesterism and Manchester's excelling economic growth when compared to other city regions in the country is all to do with nationalising buses
4:44
And in actual fact, a great deal of it has to do with selling land to private developers, not least some from Gulf states as relates to Man City
4:52
And he's less keen to talk about that a lot of the time. So that's the first thing
4:57
The second thing is that this is a ginormous scandal in our national life
5:04
I think if we were to say that there was one last remaining sort of mass collective experience in our culture
5:09
it is probably the Premier League. You could probably sort of if you had more time make some sort of argument about it being the last sort of mass participatory religion in this country Make no mistake the scale I think you talking about Lance Armstrong
5:22
I don't know where I could reach for something that is as far as reaching. We're talking about a football club
5:27
It's worth saying at the top, Manchester City still deny that any of these charges have any basis in truth
5:32
But the Premier League is pretty punchy on this. We're talking about a big business and a big football club juicing their accounts by nearly a billion pounds
5:40
It's financial doping on an extraordinary scale. They've been incredibly abrasive throughout the entire process
5:45
They still maintain their innocence. What is the consequence of this? Well, quite possibly, their expulsion from the Premier League
5:54
If they're expelled from the Premier League, the Football League is actually under no obligation to admit them and accept them
5:59
So there's a possibility they might go even lower than that. We're talking about, I would say, probably, I think, a fair punishment
6:05
You're looking at significant points deductions over many years, a transfer ban and a big old fine
6:10
And I don't think it's outside the realms of possibility to talk about the owners of the club being forced to sell it
6:16
and then being banned from owning another club in the English football pyramid. I think it is that egregious, that is the scale of things
6:22
that we should be talking about. Well, and there could well be criminal charges because they stand accused, and I think the FA have got the paperwork
6:28
that they've falsified sponsorship invoices. Now, you and I, if we did that, we would be banged to rights
6:35
we would probably either face a massive fine or even be sent to jail
6:40
So I think this is going to dominate the sort of sports business
6:43
news, I think, for the next couple of years because it is the biggest scandal
6:48
to affect English football ever. Totally. Not least because increasingly now in the English game
6:54
it's as much about the sporting achievements of the teams as it is their legal departments
6:58
Look at what happened in the Championship last season. Southampton kicked out of the play-off final for spying
7:02
replaced by Hull, who actually ended up winning the game and getting promoted to the Premier League. There's all sorts of lawsuits as related to that
7:08
Catherine? I think this is going to sort out the wheat from the chaff in football
7:12
There will be decent football clubs and decent footballers who are going to condemn this, and we need to hear from them
7:18
There will be, I think, probably others who are keeping their heads down quite. But what about the idea
7:23
I think that Andy Burnham is not taking a decision tonight on their football
7:28
Certainly, as an Everton supporter, he will be very pleased to see them in disgrace
7:34
However, what he will be thinking, as Ollie has said, there are huge investors in Manchester
7:39
and he won't be thinking far beyond that. But that's the point here, isn't it? Because the iNispaper are reporting today
7:45
that Abu Dhabi's government is urging Andy Burnham to come to Manchester City's rescue
7:52
Well, there's clearly an already established relationship there. I mean, this could get very murky
7:57
Well, I'm not a betting woman, but I bet he won't. I mean, he can't
8:01
I mean, if it's political, so politically damaging for them to do that, he can't
8:06
I'm sure that's what he will have the sense to do that, not to do that. I think they're bang for rights, as you said
8:11
It would be terrible if they were to get away with this, from this without punishment
8:15
And it's actually the definition of kind of sports washing, if you will. I can't believe this response that just because they're invested into his favourite city
8:23
he won't allow them, or not won't allow, but he would even consider letting them go scot-free
8:27
without any punishment and get involved in this. ultimately has set out the process to take its course
8:32
And I think most football fans want to see that happen too. We've learned in the last few minutes that Manchester City's main sponsor, Etihad Airways
8:39
has said it is considering taking legal action against the Premier League
8:43
over what the Premier League have concluded. They've released a statement which criticised the Premier League
8:51
for the way its findings were presented. And they say they reject any implication that suggests the airline has ever been involved
8:59
in improper commercial arrangements. The statement said the Premier League's public communication
9:05
of the Commission's findings following a period of selective leaks and reporting has further created damaging implications for Etihad
9:12
despite the airline not being named in the redacted published findings. At no time did the Premier League reach out to or engage with Etihad
9:22
in the process associated with the Commission's opinion. Etihad was therefore never given the opportunity by the Premier League
9:28
to be represented, to provide relevant information, or to ensure the accuracy and fairness of
9:34
information relied upon in reaching conclusions that may now be interpreted as reflecting
9:40
adversely on the airline. Now, I have no idea whether they have grounds for any legal case here
9:46
but it does seem odd that if the Premier League was investigating sponsorship deals
9:50
and they were the main sponsor, that they weren't asked to give their opinion. It does. It also seems odd that Manchester City didn't call Etihad Airways as a witness in its defence, because City had the option to do so, because the main allegations are in relation to sponsorship deals
10:10
They represent 830 out of the £900 million worth of adjusted accounts that have formed the basis for the conclusion to the report
10:21
Now the iNeedspaper also reporting and I have to say this is purely they reporting this that the Abu Dhabi ruling family are intervening here And of course Sheikh Mansour he the majority owner of Manchester City He what is he Deputy Prime Minister
10:40
It's a similar title anyway. Now, this could get very messy politically, couldn't it
10:45
If the Abu Dhabi government is putting pressure on the British government, and Andy Burnham in particular, as former mayor of Manchester, to intervene in this
10:55
I mean, it would be unthinkable, surely, for the government to intervene on a Premier League finding
11:00
It would be. It would be unthinkable. It would be unprofessional. And it would be a spectacular vote loser as well, because there are 91 clubs in this country who are not Manchester City
11:10
So to be for the government to be seen leaning towards one club and by definition, rejecting the views of the fans of the other 91
11:20
where I think it's a fairly universal viewpoint taken by football fans
11:24
that if Manchester City are found guilty of the charges, they should have a punishment which fits
11:30
the crime. And given that the period in which the accounts have been misrepresented is nine years
11:37
and the amount of money involved is £900 million, you would expect substantial penalties
11:42
both fiscally and relating to on-the-pitch activities, such as a points deduction or worse
11:49
Well, let's just finish off by talking about that, because the punishment here
11:53
I think everyone ought to agree has to fit the crime. But it's quite difficult to think what expulsion from the Premier League
12:03
relegation, just points deduction, massive fine of hundreds of millions of pounds
12:09
It's very difficult to work out what the Premier League can do
12:13
that most people would think was reasonable. It is, and that is why the Premier League is an independent commission
12:21
which listens to the evidence, looks at precedent, and we have seen fines. Chelsea had a fine
12:28
recently. We have seen compensation given to other clubs. Everton had to give Burnley Football Club
12:34
£35 million compensation, and we have had points deductions. I would imagine two of those three
12:41
will apply. The compensation issue will be a separate prosecution or negotiation between
12:47
clubs who feel that they have lost out as a result of Manchester City's activities
12:52
and Manchester City itself. But whatever the result of this, it surely will be the case that players like Haaland
13:01
and some of their other better players will not be at Manchester City next season
13:05
I think that there's a very high chance of that. If City are relegated, Erling Haaland going to Swansea on a Tuesday night
13:13
there's no chance of that happening, despite the fact that Swansea on a Tuesday night can be great fun
13:17
Well, David Hague joins me now, a human rights lawyer who's spent over a decade acting for people imprisoned
13:22
and mistreated in the United Arab Emirates. He's a former managing director of Leeds United Football Club
13:28
so knows a bit about how football clubs are run, should be run
13:32
David, thank you for coming on the programme tonight. What are you making, first of all, of this statement from Etihad
13:39
Good evening, Ian. I think when the UAE effectively bought Man City
13:45
they were buying influence. They weren't buying football. That's what they wanted. And I think the statement from Etihad
13:51
it's just the star. Already behind the scenes, I'm sure there's a lot of diplomatic pressure going on
13:57
We saw Andy Burnham say he's not going to get involved, but then followed it up by
14:02
I would be concerned if we lose them from Manchester. That's quite a worry
14:08
Now, I don't know if you remember back in 2024, before some of your listeners may do
14:12
Keir Starmer went to the UAE, to Abu Dhabi, days after the hearings in this investigation finished
14:21
Coincidence, it could be. But he's shaking hands with the president of the UAE
14:26
days after the hearing for this very case. And they will have approached the subject with him, presumably
14:31
I mean, I think it's reasonable to assume that. Yeah. And now we've got Andy Burnham, another prime minister
14:38
the same kind of comments, worried about the diplomatic relationships. And to be honest
14:43
he should be. You know, I'm no fan of the UAE. I think there are dictators and despots and their
14:47
human rights abuses are well known, but they are a big investor. And they are, they do
14:52
effectively on paper, a friend of ours in a very turbulent region. So you can understand
14:58
it's a real test, I think, this for Andy Burnham. They will not be happy, they being the UAE
15:03
in us taking their toys away, in the Premier League taking their toys away and embarrassing
15:07
them for what they've done. They're not used to that. They used to be able to buy their way out
15:12
of everything. And I said, you know, I said, interestingly, the other day, that it's interesting
15:16
that it could not be the UN, it might not be governments, but it could be football that finally
15:21
puts them in their place. What about the legal aspects to this? Because I said earlier on that
15:27
if I was found guilty of falsifying invoices, I could potentially be sent to jail. Now, this is so
15:35
far I think the dog that hasn't barked but I believe you've got a development on this side
15:40
well I have because I felt the same way when I when I was looking at this I was sitting
15:45
the day earlier with a friend of mine she an auditor and we were talking about this and and she was saying well actually if this happened then you know there there lots of offenses misleading auditors etc many of the many criminal offenses that could have happened and could is the big one so what i
15:59
did today i reported the premier league report to the manchester police i also reported it to
16:04
to the auditors um and the manchester police were very good they called me back within about half an
16:09
hour and um the the the the i think the police officer i think was just a call taker he said
16:14
that various other people have contacted them as well. And he suggested I report it to report fraud in other places
16:20
And so that's very interesting. And that's something that fans can do. Fans can report this
16:25
They can report it online. They can report it to report fraud. They can report it to their auditors
16:29
They can express that. And that's something that I think is the next stage
16:33
And you would hope that influence certainly can't buy criminal justice. What
16:40
I mean, look, I don't know how much you know about the law in this area
16:44
But this, to me, assuming that the Premier League have got it right, is a clear issue of serious financial fraud
16:53
And the penalties for that are very serious, aren't they? Well, absolutely
16:58
If the accounts were wrong, the accounts, of course, were filed with the company's house
17:02
So that would sell. And they report to the auditors. Misrepresenting accounts to auditors is a criminal offence
17:08
It's serious. And I think, you know, I don't know the exact phrases you would use, but misrepresenting it to the auditors
17:14
you know, fraud by misrepresentation. These are all areas which I think, you know, these are the
17:18
ones that I thought were potential things that the Manchester Police should look at. So it is
17:25
very, very serious. Now, of course, the independent commission that's looked at this and found these
17:30
that's not a criminal trial. You know, that would have to come. This is an independent commission
17:34
that's come to this conclusion. And there's an appeal still. So that's still got to go. But
17:38
it's looking very, very damning, I think. And I think you can see clearly, I mean, look at Etihad
17:43
like you mentioned earlier just so your listeners know etihad is owned by a fund that's chaired by
17:50
the brother of the owner of man city so it's a little bit incestuous you know brothers supporting
17:54
each other um so you know but i think you'll see more of that as well just talk to us a little
18:00
about the human rights situation in abu dhabi and what why have you become so interested in this
18:05
well i think it's something you know i mean my case was you know when i ran a football club i
18:10
I fell foul of them and ended up in a very bad situation there. And then I spent the last decade since helping people
18:16
One of the people I helped, many of your listeners know, a lady called Princess Latifa, the daughter of the ruler
18:20
who tried to escape my helping lady at the moment. Zainab Javadli, she's the ex-wife of a sheikh
18:26
She was abducted at gunpoint with her children in July. These are how they treat, these are how the UAE treats their own citizens
18:35
and wives and mothers. We all know about Princess Haya. Again, another wife of a ruler who escaped to England in fear of her life
18:43
And then you see the many Brits that get arrested and jailed there for ridiculous things like having a drink in a bar
18:50
Human rights doesn't exist there. And the UAE, like many other areas that are dictators, they get out of that by sports washing, by buying things like Manchester City, by looking at the dolphin races
19:03
They wash their human rights abuses with things like that and buying influence
19:07
Like I said at the beginning, you know, they didn't buy football. They were buying influence
19:12
And that's what we'll see them trying to put in play over the coming days, because they will not like this because they can't seemingly buy their way out of the breaches
19:23
And Premier League football, in fact, I would say championship football in England has become so dominated by the ability to spend a huge amount of money on players
19:32
But, of course, there are lots of rules on that now. They started off by being called financial fair play
19:39
I can't remember what the latest, SRC or something like that. And this is affecting all clubs in the country at the moment
19:47
Ben has just texted me for Lincoln saying that his club, even though they got promoted last season
19:53
they've had to sell some of their best players to meet the rules that govern the game now
19:59
And it does seem very unfair when you have clubs like Chelsea
20:03
Manchester City seemingly able to spend whatever they like and then you have clubs like Aston Villa and Newcastle
20:10
who've tried to break into the top six, then as soon as they do, they have to sell their best players
20:17
And obviously the consequences of that, well, we all know what they are. These rules are not fit for purpose, are they
20:24
Well, that's the thing. And if these aren't upheld, then absolutely not
20:29
And that's why the Premier League can't back down and shouldn't back down on this. And that's why there has to be severe sanctions against Man City
20:37
The owners need to be kicked out of the Premier League for good. And any advertisers that knowingly colluded with this, the same thing
20:43
There needs to be severe sanctions. And the sad thing, like you said earlier on, you know, the sad thing with this, it's going to hurt the fans
20:49
And they don't deserve this. The fans haven't done anything wrong. But they're the ones that will ultimately be hurt by their club being sanctioned in this way
20:57
But that's one of the reasons why states should not own football clubs, because a sanction against a football club shouldn't be a diplomatic incident, which this is now becoming
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