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A heated debate on whether the UK should introduce national ID cards to tackle illegal migration and black-market work. Supporters call it common sense while critics warn it risks turning Britain into a ‘papers please’ society.
Tom Swarbrick talks to Senior Researcher at the University of Oxford, Peter Walsh, and Executive Director of Politics at the Tony Blair Institute, Ryan Wain, to discuss the pros and cons of ID cards to help deter small boat crossings.
Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp
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0:00
One of the things that this state visit did was to have a mirror put up to this country by our European friends
0:05
and to hear from them about the areas where we really aren't pulling our weight
0:09
And as much as we don't like being told what to do by little French generals
0:13
reality is this country has not got its house in order and the Europeans know it
0:18
One of the reasons why so many people are making their way through Europe, through Germany, through France to try and come to the UK
0:24
is, well, as Macron said, a third of illegals, as he called them, are trying to get to the UK
0:30
Why is that? Because fundamentally, we are a soft touch. We know this
0:34
Europe knows this. The people trying to get here know this. As Macron's aides are quoted as saying
0:39
our benefit system is overly generous and it is just far too easy to work in this country
0:45
even if you have no right to. Today, the former boss of MI6, Sir Alex Younger
0:50
argued that the United Kingdom should adopt a national identity card system
0:54
to combat irregular migration and the black market labour economy. It's absolutely obvious to me that people should have a digital identity
1:03
And in that context, the grey labour force won't exist. And we've removed a pull factor
1:08
So let's stop shouting at the French. A lot of this is on us. He's right, isn't he
1:12
It is the definition of failing governance if the authorities charged with policing the borders
1:18
have no idea who is here and whether people who are here are here legally
1:24
So given everything that we have heard from the French, given everything we've seen over the last eight or nine years with this problem in the channel
1:32
one of the reasons we are told that people are trying to get here in such great numbers
1:36
and to be honest, you know this in your heart of hearts too, is because it's just easier here to
1:40
get a life together, even if you've got no right to. You haven't got the right to work, you haven't
1:45
even got a right to be here. But no one knows that you're here, no one knows who you are or where
1:49
you're from, and no one can tell whether you should be able to work or not. Is now the time
1:53
to make absolutely sure that we know who is in the country
1:58
we know what they have the right to do by introducing ID cards
2:03
and at the same time, by doing so, reducing the pull factor for migrant illegal workers
2:11
03456060973. Peter Walsh is Senior Researcher at the University of Oxford's Migration Observatory
2:15
Thank you for coming on the programme, Mr Walsh. I'm sure you will have looked into the potential effects of bringing in ID cards on this
2:21
as Alex Younger called it, the grey labour force. What have you found about it
2:28
Well, we haven't found any evidence that introducing an ID card system would help
2:33
with unauthorised employment In fact the legal framework in the UK is really similar to France If you employ illegal workers you can face a pretty substantial fine and up to five years in
2:45
prison. That's just the same as in France. In the UK, if you are a reputable employer
2:51
you are obligated to check that the prospective employee has legal immigration status. That's
2:57
either with a physical card or exactly a digital form of immigration status. That's just the same
3:05
as in France. So it's not clear that introducing an ID card system would help with this. In fact
3:10
the World Bank statistics show that the irregular, unauthorised economy in France
3:14
contributes a bigger share of GDP than it does in the UK. It's not a particular surprise. The French
3:20
employment laws are highly bureaucratic. You're always going to have unscrupulous employers
3:26
whichever country you look at. Who checks the checkers? The Home Office
3:32
Ah, that well-known office of responsible behaviour. And often as a result of immigration
3:41
raids on premises that are thought to employ illegal workers. If you're found to employ an
3:47
illegal worker and you didn't carry out the required checks, then you can expect to face
3:52
a pretty hefty prison sentence or an unlimited fine. Do you think that those checks are being
3:57
done regularly in the right places to make sure that employers, even the unscrupulous ones
4:02
do these checks? It's actually really difficult to know because the government doesn't produce
4:08
statistics on this. If we assume that there's a large number of people employing unauthorised
4:14
workers in the UK, which I think it's reasonable to assume, potentially not even tens of thousands
4:19
but more than that. Wow. Of course, there are limits when it comes to enforcement capacity
4:25
Well, it's thought that the unauthorised population in the UK is not in the tens of thousands or the low hundreds of thousands
4:31
but potentially the high hundreds of thousands. There are employers supporting that
4:37
and of course the raids are in the hundreds and low thousands. It's really difficult to actually enforce employment properly
4:42
So we could have a million people here. Yeah, sorry, Peter. We could have a million people
4:47
near enough a million people in this country here illegally. it's really difficult to know
4:52
But the estimates that are available, flawed as they are, because of course this is a difficult population to survey
4:58
suggest it's not in the tens of thousands or even the low hundreds of thousands. It could be in the high hundreds of thousands
5:03
Most estimates do converge in that kind of region, not necessarily over a million
5:07
but in the high hundreds of thousands approaching it. Very good to talk to you. Always appreciate you coming on
5:11
Peter Walsh, Senior Researcher at the University of Oxford Migration Observatory Ryan Wayne is Executive Director of Politics at the Tony Blair Institute Thank you for coming on Ryan Is it fair to say that Tony Blair is still in favour of these ID cards
5:25
Well, the Tony Blair Institute, and it turns out the majority of the public, are in favour of not just ID cards, but actually something we call digital ID
5:33
And I think your previous caller set out the facts very, very well
5:37
But it's worth saying that sometimes common sense just needs to prevail
5:41
and why would we want to deny ourselves a tool that allows us to confer on someone the right to
5:47
work or not to work to claim benefits or not to claim benefits to rent or not to rent and then be
5:52
able to check that at any given moment and to be able to critically give them that status the minute
5:57
they come into Britain it's a no-brainer for me. But as Mr Walsh was describing even if you brought
6:03
in this system we still have employers still have the ability to check whether someone is here in
6:07
the country or not whether they have the status to be able to work um so what would it be that
6:13
would mean that those employers are more likely to do it with a digital id card rather than the current legislation well it would make enforcement much easier we talked about the home office and
6:22
you know it's as you said it's not been the most effective institute of state it would become much
6:28
more effective with a digital id because at the scan of an iris or the taking of a fingerprint
6:32
they'd be able to say quite quickly whether someone was able to work or not rather than
6:37
having to rely on you know a raid of a workplace where then someone can slip back into the system
6:42
so i think it is about making enforcement as effective as possible i think employers
6:46
knowing that it's easier to make to do this enforcement would be more likely to comply
6:50
the scan of an iris it sounds a little bit uh encroaching upon people's feet because one of the
6:57
as you know one of the long-standing objections to this is that we are not a papers please
7:01
society absolutely and this is not just about proving who you are but our artists get scammed
7:07
we walk through the passport gates of gatwick or liverpool airport or manchester airport
7:11
with the passport gates and that's the other thing about digital id it's not just allowing us to
7:17
enforce and control our borders probably which is absolutely critical if you want to have a
7:21
conversation with public about anything we need to control our borders first but it also allows
7:25
us to make public services work much more efficiently and much more effectively so it's
7:30
If we want to be a country that reverses decline and starts to transform itself
7:34
I think this is absolutely critical as a piece of infrastructure that we desperately need
7:41
Even though it would still be reliant on employers doing those checks that they're currently not doing
7:46
Well, employers need to do the check, but think about the enforcement mechanism that the Home Office has
7:51
If they doing a raid on a workplace it a scan that they can see quickly If they have a tip off that there are delivery riders who don have to write but what is it what is it currently so i got a work visa
8:02
to come and work in the country presumably i can have that on my phone too yeah but and you have a
8:07
visa that you have to share with your employer so what's i just don't understand you're just sort
8:12
of replacing one with the other here's the work visa um here's the proof of the work visa you can
8:17
check both if you'd like but it's easier just to check one yeah and it is ultimately a question
8:22
of efficiency uh moving from a paper-based system that belongs in the 20th century dealing with 20th
8:27
century problems with a digital system that allows us to move much more at speed and be much more
8:32
mobile and that's where enforcement happens it doesn't you can't rely on the system allows people
8:37
to slip back into the informal labor market and that is ultimately my president macron's right it
8:42
makes Britain quite an attractive place and has done for up to a million people
8:46
I'm just trying to get a vision of Tony Blair and your good self standing in front of a giant
8:52
computer screen. On it, the names of every Briton in the land who has a digital ID card. And so you
8:58
could see where they work. Have they got the right to work? You could see them perhaps changing jobs
9:03
moving jobs as they go through their career. Is that sort of the destination of this
9:08
I don't think that's necessarily what we have in mind because the technology exists to do this in a very privacy-protecting and preserving way
9:16
This is simply about being able to digitise our identities and allow that to be used by law enforcement as and when someone is suspected of committing a crime or overstaying their welcome, being here illegally, or trying to rent or trying to get employment
9:33
and the key thing is it's a deterrent. If it becomes harder for people to rent
9:38
for people to do delivery where, then they are much less likely to come here
9:42
It's not silver bullet. But the reality is that we need this solution
9:45
plus all the other credible solutions that we get our hands on in order to regain control of our borders
9:51
And only then we can have a conversation with the public about other things
9:55
that need change in this country. Does it turn out in the end, Ryan, just finally, does it turn out that President Macron
10:00
is describing a hostile environment that isn't actually that hostile? Well, describing an environment that is appealing
10:09
to people wanting to come here, yes. Is our job to make that environment more hostile
10:13
Not necessarily. I think it's to make enforcement much more effective so that people know that when they come here
10:19
they just cannot slip and disappear into an informal labour market. We actually make it pointless for people
10:25
who aren't meant to be here to try and make that journey, that perilous journey for them
10:29
and their families in the first place. really good to talk to you thanks for coming on ryan wayne executive director of politics
10:34
at the tony blair institute
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