0:00
no news on what the replacement might be for John Healy
0:03
who they might put in. They're clearly going to have a really big discussion about that today. You mentioned Al-Khans. He said what, essentially
0:08
He essentially said the defence investment plan cannot continue and it's not good enough in its current form
0:13
So we've got to change tack in order for that to happen. And he might have been a replacement, so he probably won't be
0:18
They can't put him now. I mean, is that the kind of tone deafness you've been talking about? Well, I think it is
0:23
You manage to lose your defence secretary and effectively the person who would have been the natural successor
0:30
it's like the Oscar Wilde line, isn't it? That takes quite some doing. But what I'm intrigued, and Natasha, if I can just bring
0:37
Sheila, if you'll allow me, just to bring our colleague Natasha Clark into the conversation. Look, you prowl the corridors of power and the bars and restaurants
0:43
Oh, of course. Of Whitehall. As you'd expect. What's going on at number 10 now
0:47
What will be going on? Yeah. Crisis camp, crisis meeting. It's total crisis camp, and I don't know
0:51
And I spoke to someone in the MOD early, and I sort of asked them, Did Keir Starmer talk to John Healy this morning before he did this
0:59
No answer there. I've tried to speak to No. 10 today. I haven't managed to get through until I just got sent that message just now
1:05
They are going to be now in a bunker. Who can we get to replace John Healy
1:09
And it's speed everything. Can they buy 24 hours or do they really need to see the man or woman in place before close of play
1:17
Typically, what would your experience tell you? It depends whether they want to save this defence investment plan in the state that it is
1:22
right. So if you are going to continue with the plan that you've got and you are convinced that
1:27
it is right, and that is exactly what we've heard from Number 10 today, saying that they do believe
1:31
that their plan is the right one and they're going to continue to try to push ahead, they need a
1:36
defence secretary and they need one fast because that's going to buy them some time. The problem
1:40
being, if Alcanz is saying it's not good enough, if other defence ministers in the department are
1:44
saying it's not good enough, you've got to then change the plan. You've got to then go back to
1:48
the drawing board, go back to the Treasury and go, we've got to find extra money because this is just
1:53
not going to wash with other government ministers. If you can't fill that job, it's essentially a
1:57
poison chalice, isn't it? Why would you want to go and be the defence secretary that is going to
2:02
resign over, quote, cuts to our armed forces and not preparing our personnel for the threats they
2:09
face? And again, both that response and the fact that Keir Starmer has lost somebody of West
2:14
Streeting's stature in the government. He's lost Healy now, even larger stature
2:20
arguably. Open revolt, really, in some quarters of the party, perhaps not quite in the government, but open revolt
2:28
in the party for sure. The Burnham question is looming large. Are we witnessing
2:34
in real time his lack of political mouse? Well, I think, and Natasha can speak to this, was anybody
2:40
really that surprised that Wes Streeting tried to have a go at perhaps leaving the Labour
2:44
party. No, I don't think we will. The fact that it's John Healy, I think that's what
2:48
your listeners, what our listeners really have to latch on to. Because much as Andrew
2:52
Ma was saying about George and our Lord Robertson he Labour to his boots this bloke He is a party loyalist He absolutely believes in Labour and Labour principles West Street who I met and I will say is perhaps a total Labour guy but he also there if he sees an opportunity I don think
3:07
He's an ambitious young buck. Yeah, he's a young buck. Absolute great description
3:11
And I don't think that's right of John Lee. I think he will have had, and indeed his letter speaks about that
3:15
that he didn't want to make that. I think he will have had a real crisis of confidence. But what would be interesting for the listeners to say
3:21
I mean, what I would probably... Is he right? do you actually, do you buy
3:26
the Healy line, which is look, you haven't done enough, or what Natasha
3:30
just read out, you know, I have to say, you could almost, I could almost
3:34
have written that for them, I kind of know, oh, we've committed to this, and I
3:38
sense your listeners, our listeners, will probably be on Mr Healy's side more than they will on
3:44
Sir Keir's. Well, not least because the government has been fairly repeatedly
3:48
in the last few months preparing us for a state of insecurity
3:52
that we have to live in. To do that and then have your defence secretary
3:56
to say, can't do this. We've got Ukraine. And then, well, can we have the cash
4:01
No. And the Russians are stalking our shores and all of that. Yeah, yeah. We will intervene when we have to
4:06
with a shadow fleet and you don't. Well, what do you expect the public to think? Yes, Nick
4:10
And, you know, I think what you say about loyalty and the fact that this is one of the prime minister's allies
4:14
friends, right-hand men, as it were, means so much more. It means the devastating blow
4:19
the hammer blow that he's facing. Is it a Geoffrey Howe moment? Yeah
4:23
Potentially, yeah, potentially. I mean, an ally of John Healy said to me earlier today
4:27
Healy has been one of the most loyal Labour men for over 30 years. He has only ever wanted a successful Labour government
4:33
And I completely agree that. I've met John Healy on many, many occasions. And he would not be resigning if he did not feel that this was absolutely vital
4:41
He's a serious man. He's a serious man. I just have to share with Alyssa's problem. Her phone keeps pinging
4:46
She's scrolling through. Can you read it? The inbox is filling up
4:50
Yeah, yeah, come on. Name the names. Nick and I have a natter, you have a look at that
4:54
Just read your message inbox. Why don't we have a natter a little bit about your conversation with Nigel Farage
4:59
which was brutally interrupted by this news. But we were able then to get real-time reaction from Nigel Farage
5:05
the reform leader on this. Just for people who may have just joined us at two, just summarise what he said about this moment
5:10
That he, John Healy, was an honourable man, that it was unfortunate and that he was one of the better ones
5:16
around Sir Keir Starmer, that it was the right decision, that it has put the defence of this nation in jeopardy
5:23
And then I pushed Mr Farage a little bit on Donald Trump because, just to remind your listeners, of course
5:27
Donald Trump has repeatedly questioned the commitment from certain NATO nations. We have to say that Britain is one of the better ones
5:33
but Donald Trump has issues. And Nigel Farage says it totally underscores what he, Donald Trump, is saying about NATO
5:39
saying about European commitment to defence, and it will only really serve to enforce
5:44
Trump's view of Europe and NATO. Well, speaking of NATO, there's a big meeting there, isn't there
5:48
in what, two weeks' time? Yeah. Less than that? Yeah. He mentioned it yesterday in the House of Commons
5:52
and it's pretty clear that Kemi Badenok yesterday landed exactly where she needed to
5:58
in the questions that she put to the Prime Minister yesterday at PMQs didn she Yes and you know the conversation that you were having with Lord Hatton earlier today you know summed that up This is not something that just landed on Former Defence Secretary Yeah the former Defence Secretary It not something that just landed on the Prime Minister desk
6:11
They've known about this for months and months and months. And like I say, just keep coming back to this point
6:16
that the Prime Minister told me last week when I did that interview with him, this is his number one priority
6:20
But this is your number one priority. This is all you've got. You can manage to get £13 billion
6:24
and it's not going to come for another few years to come. Tell the Treasury where you need to find this money and tell them now
6:31
because that's exactly what John Healy has been screaming now from the rooftops. I'll tell you what, Sheila, that's a very good point you make about Kemi Baden-Ock
6:37
Because who was it who said, give me lucky generals? I can't remember who it was. But you can now see that when Kemi Baden-Ock went after the Prime Minister
6:45
and it was all about defence, my goodness, as you rightly say, that's landed. Really
6:49
Yeah. He was uncomfortable as well, because all he could muster in response
6:54
it seemed to me, was talking about defence contracts that had been won and invested in
6:59
And that's all to the good, but it was tiny amounts of stuff compared to the bigger picture
7:04
Do you sense, both of you, do you sense there's a bit of wind in Kimmy Batonok's sails at the moment
7:07
The game seems to be coming towards her. I think she's improved as a political performer
7:12
both on air and in the Commons, in leaps and bounds. I also think in an age of politicians, you know
7:18
in an age of politicians who can barely string a sentence together without sounding like they're strangling themselves
7:23
She just says it. Yeah, I think that's right. I think she has come on definitely in her Commons performances
7:27
And she's definitely going NPMQs on topics that I think she feels more comfortable going on
7:33
So the economy and defence and also those sort of, you know, Tory values and Tory sort of conversations that naturally, I think
7:40
are way sort of easier for her to get into on that. She's responded to Healy's resignation in the last few minutes
7:47
Listen to this. I think more taxes are on the way. Keir Starmer should have been able to say we've taxed enough, we're going to cut welfare
7:57
The fact is they are taxing everybody to pay for more benefits
8:01
We even had a Treasury minister say that on the select committee, that student loans, that they need the money from the student loan increases
8:08
so that they can pay for benefits. It's completely crazy. We need to cut the benefits bill, put the money into defence
8:15
That's our policy. I said we would reinstate the two-child benefit cap. Labour should never have taken it away
8:21
That's £3.5 billion that can go straight into our defence. That is Conservative policy
8:26
Timely, eh? Well, Labour MPs have a question now to answer, don't they
8:30
Because it was about 12 months ago that Sakir Starmer tried to have rather moderate reforms to the welfare bill
8:37
which would have provided some cash that could have gone to defence. Understanding, as I've said on the radio
8:41
and I'm sure you've covered it as well, Sheila, there was the rebellion and they backed down
8:45
To remind Andrew Mark, advance, buckle, advance, buckle. that withering criticism by Morgan McSweeney
8:50
Well, Labour MPs have to look themselves in the face, if not tonight, tomorrow morning, because you've just lost your defence, Secretary
8:56
I would argue the nation is probably more on Mr Healy's side than it is on Sir Keir's side
9:00
We understand and of course a lot of the welfare bill is pensions I understand that but you going to have to think that I appreciate this is not the Labour mantra but you are going to have to face some tough choices The cash now has to be fine
9:13
There's no ifs or buts. If Sakhir is to survive or even whoever comes in, Andy Burnham, Wes Streeting
9:17
whoever it might be, Uncle Tom Cobblenow, you've got to find the cash. That's the reality
9:21
Which is exactly what John Hilton was saying. He said it's not a question of this is too much because we're already in trouble
9:25
and we haven't got enough money. It's a question of prioritising and leading. And that's why Chem is bright to have landed on that
9:30
I just wanted also to bring you, Sheila, Wes Streeting has just weighed in, obviously the former health secretary
9:35
And he obviously, you know, John Healy is the second cabinet minister that Keir Starmer has now lost in two, three weeks since he resigned
9:42
He's just said John was an excellent defence secretary. Every word of warning in this resignation letter needs to be heeded
9:48
So totally weighing in behind John Healy, really kicking the boot into Keir Starmer further
9:54
And I think Wes Streeting actually is obviously seen as somebody that the Labour Party is sort of more to the right of the Labour Party
10:01
So there is going to be questions there. I think this will be this news, I think, will be good for Wes Streeting because he is the kind of person that would absolutely be like, you know, having this argument with the Treasury, find the money, no matter what it takes, we will absolutely get it done
10:14
But, you know, it's clearly Keir Starmer. It's kind of what he did over the doctors, isn't it
10:19
Exactly. The pay. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, arguably another fight that he's sort of not won, I guess, in that respect, that obviously those strikes were ongoing when West Streeting came out as health secretary
10:29
But, you know, in terms of the fight and like I say, many Labour MPs that we speak to day in, day out, feel that the momentum is with Andy Burnham at the moment
10:36
And that seems now that there is going to be at some point a contest over the summer, some sort of leadership challenge to the prime minister
10:44
And all of these issues are now going to be swirling. And if Keir Starmer can't sort of say that he is going to be the one to increase this defence spending and make these cases about why he is going to be that person that can continue to lead the country and keep us safe
10:58
You know, we've talked so much about how good he is on the world stage. That's arguably the world stage
11:02
This is the world stage. This is what you need to do in order to make that happen. And he's going to be facing questions from Labour members, from the public, from the media all summer
11:11
Keir Stammer this is. Andy Burnham as well. Potentially West Streeting if that does go into that leadership contest
11:16
Where are you going to find the money? What are you going to cut? These are difficult decisions. And Nick, a final thought from you
11:20
I mean, it's not necessarily the case that he can wait till Makerfield here, is it
11:24
It's a final thought and a question to both of you because we've talked about West Street. What does it mean for Team Burnham
11:29
I wonder what are we going to hear from him? Because if, of course, the election goes his way and we do have that, to Natasha's point
11:35
someone's got to find the money somewhere. And I'm going to, because I relish doing it
11:39
although I like him as a bloke. Ed Miliband, they need to kick the door down and grab some of his cash back
11:43
You were saying earlier on that he was the one, since the Treasury came looking for money
11:49
that just sent them back in. Yeah. Yeah, he's been the one that's, you know, he's refused to be reshuffled, didn't he
11:55
When Keir Starmer originally wanted to boot him out of the Energy Secretary job, and now he's refusing
11:59
he's saying no to cuts. So that is just a real sign of how weak this Prime Minister is
12:03
Get in there. You can't even, someone's coming up to your door, all saying you've got to find some budget cuts and you say oh sorry got to got to find them somewhere
