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Cloning dogs is a subject that makes many people curious. It lets dog owners keep having their beloved pets around. For many dog lovers, life without their furry friends seems hard to imagine. Many dogs become like family members. That’s why the idea of dog cloning them seems appealing to some. Read the full article […]
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Welcome to the deep dive. Today we're
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Welcome to the deep dive. Today we're
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Welcome to the deep dive. Today we're getting into a topic that um it sits
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getting into a topic that um it sits
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getting into a topic that um it sits right at this strange intersection of
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right at this strange intersection of
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right at this strange intersection of our deepest, most personal emotions and
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our deepest, most personal emotions and
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our deepest, most personal emotions and well the far edge of science.
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well the far edge of science.
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well the far edge of science. >> Yeah, it really does.
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>> Yeah, it really does.
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>> Yeah, it really does. >> We're talking about dog cloning. The
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>> We're talking about dog cloning. The
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>> We're talking about dog cloning. The idea that you could, you know, bring
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idea that you could, you know, bring
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idea that you could, you know, bring your best friend back
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your best friend back
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your best friend back >> or at least a version of them, a genetic
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>> or at least a version of them, a genetic
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>> or at least a version of them, a genetic twin.
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twin.
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twin. >> Exactly. And we've done a really
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>> Exactly. And we've done a really
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>> Exactly. And we've done a really comprehensive look at the research here,
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comprehensive look at the research here,
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comprehensive look at the research here, drawing a lot from Dogazilla magazine to
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drawing a lot from Dogazilla magazine to
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drawing a lot from Dogazilla magazine to unpack it all. We want to get into the
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unpack it all. We want to get into the
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unpack it all. We want to get into the science, the the mechanics of it, the
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science, the the mechanics of it, the
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science, the the mechanics of it, the global laws and, you know, the real
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global laws and, you know, the real
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global laws and, you know, the real world stories of people who've done
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world stories of people who've done
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world stories of people who've done this.
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this.
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this. >> It's a fascinating and I think a really
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>> It's a fascinating and I think a really
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>> It's a fascinating and I think a really controversial world.
0:38
controversial world.
0:38
controversial world. >> It is because for so many of us, a dog
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>> It is because for so many of us, a dog
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>> It is because for so many of us, a dog isn't just a pet, right? They're
0:43
isn't just a pet, right? They're
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isn't just a pet, right? They're >> they're family.
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>> they're family.
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>> they're family. >> And the idea of losing that connection,
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>> And the idea of losing that connection,
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>> And the idea of losing that connection, that specific personality, it's
0:48
that specific personality, it's
0:48
that specific personality, it's devastating. And that grief, that's
0:50
devastating. And that grief, that's
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devastating. And that grief, that's really the engine behind this entire
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really the engine behind this entire
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really the engine behind this entire industry, isn't it?
0:53
industry, isn't it?
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industry, isn't it? >> It's the whole reason it exists at the
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>> It's the whole reason it exists at the
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>> It's the whole reason it exists at the end of the day. past all the high-tech
0:56
end of the day. past all the high-tech
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end of the day. past all the high-tech lab equipment, dog cloning is a a very
0:59
lab equipment, dog cloning is a a very
0:59
lab equipment, dog cloning is a a very advanced and very expensive response to
1:02
advanced and very expensive response to
1:02
advanced and very expensive response to loss.
1:03
loss.
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loss. >> So, just to set the stage, what are we
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>> So, just to set the stage, what are we
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>> So, just to set the stage, what are we talking about in the simplest terms?
1:06
talking about in the simplest terms?
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talking about in the simplest terms? >> In simple terms, it's a way to create a
1:08
>> In simple terms, it's a way to create a
1:08
>> In simple terms, it's a way to create a genetic copy of an existing dog. You're
1:10
genetic copy of an existing dog. You're
1:10
genetic copy of an existing dog. You're using advanced science to preserve those
1:13
using advanced science to preserve those
1:13
using advanced science to preserve those genetic traits. And for the owner, the
1:15
genetic traits. And for the owner, the
1:15
genetic traits. And for the owner, the hope is to kind of extend that unique
1:19
hope is to kind of extend that unique
1:19
hope is to kind of extend that unique relationship.
1:20
relationship.
1:20
relationship. >> Okay, so let's get into the
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>> Okay, so let's get into the
1:21
>> Okay, so let's get into the nitty-gritty. I think a lot of people
1:23
nitty-gritty. I think a lot of people
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nitty-gritty. I think a lot of people hear cloning and they just picture a
1:26
hear cloning and they just picture a
1:26
hear cloning and they just picture a sci-fi movie. But how does this actually
1:29
sci-fi movie. But how does this actually
1:29
sci-fi movie. But how does this actually work,
1:29
work,
1:29
work, >> right? It's not a magic button. The core
1:31
>> right? It's not a magic button. The core
1:31
>> right? It's not a magic button. The core technology is called sematic cell
1:33
technology is called sematic cell
1:34
technology is called sematic cell nuclear transfer. It's a mouthful. So
1:35
nuclear transfer. It's a mouthful. So
1:35
nuclear transfer. It's a mouthful. So people usually just say SCT.
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people usually just say SCT.
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people usually just say SCT. Okay. And sematic cell that just means
1:41
Okay. And sematic cell that just means
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Okay. And sematic cell that just means any cell from the body that isn't a
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any cell from the body that isn't a
1:42
any cell from the body that isn't a reproductive cell, right? Like a skin
1:44
reproductive cell, right? Like a skin
1:44
reproductive cell, right? Like a skin cell.
1:45
cell.
1:45
cell. >> Exactly. That's the most common source.
1:47
>> Exactly. That's the most common source.
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>> Exactly. That's the most common source. So step one is getting that genetic
1:48
So step one is getting that genetic
1:48
So step one is getting that genetic blueprint. Scientists take a small
1:50
blueprint. Scientists take a small
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blueprint. Scientists take a small tissue sample from the dog you want to
1:51
tissue sample from the dog you want to
1:51
tissue sample from the dog you want to clone, the boner, and they isolate a
1:53
clone, the boner, and they isolate a
1:54
clone, the boner, and they isolate a cell.
1:54
cell.
1:54
cell. >> And the dog doesn't even have to be
1:55
>> And the dog doesn't even have to be
1:55
>> And the dog doesn't even have to be alive for this part, which I found
1:57
alive for this part, which I found
1:57
alive for this part, which I found incredible.
1:58
incredible.
1:58
incredible. >> That's true. But the cells have to be
1:59
>> That's true. But the cells have to be
1:59
>> That's true. But the cells have to be preserved very quickly and correctly
2:01
preserved very quickly and correctly
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preserved very quickly and correctly after death. Time is critical. So, they
2:04
after death. Time is critical. So, they
2:04
after death. Time is critical. So, they have the nucleus from that skin cell,
2:06
have the nucleus from that skin cell,
2:06
have the nucleus from that skin cell, which contains all the DNA.
2:07
which contains all the DNA.
2:07
which contains all the DNA. >> Okay, so they had the blueprint. What's
2:09
>> Okay, so they had the blueprint. What's
2:09
>> Okay, so they had the blueprint. What's next?
2:09
next?
2:09
next? >> Step two is preparing the egg. They take
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>> Step two is preparing the egg. They take
2:13
>> Step two is preparing the egg. They take an unfertilized egg cell from a
2:15
an unfertilized egg cell from a
2:15
an unfertilized egg cell from a different dog, a donor egg, and then
2:18
different dog, a donor egg, and then
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different dog, a donor egg, and then very delicately they remove its nucleus.
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very delicately they remove its nucleus.
2:21
very delicately they remove its nucleus. >> They scoop it out. Basically,
2:23
>> They scoop it out. Basically,
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>> They scoop it out. Basically, >> you can think of it that way. Yeah. It's
2:24
>> you can think of it that way. Yeah. It's
2:24
>> you can think of it that way. Yeah. It's a process called a nucleation. So now
2:26
a process called a nucleation. So now
2:26
a process called a nucleation. So now you have an egg cell that's basically an
2:28
you have an egg cell that's basically an
2:28
you have an egg cell that's basically an empty shell with all the cellular
2:30
empty shell with all the cellular
2:30
empty shell with all the cellular machinery to create life, but no genetic
2:33
machinery to create life, but no genetic
2:33
machinery to create life, but no genetic instructions of its own.
2:34
instructions of its own.
2:34
instructions of its own. >> And then comes the transfer part of the
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>> And then comes the transfer part of the
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>> And then comes the transfer part of the name.
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name.
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name. >> Precisely. They inject the nucleus from
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>> Precisely. They inject the nucleus from
2:39
>> Precisely. They inject the nucleus from the donor dog skin cell into that empty
2:41
the donor dog skin cell into that empty
2:41
the donor dog skin cell into that empty egg. So now you have a reconstructed egg
2:43
egg. So now you have a reconstructed egg
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egg. So now you have a reconstructed egg that carries the complete 100% identical
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that carries the complete 100% identical
2:46
that carries the complete 100% identical DNA of the dog you want to clone.
2:48
DNA of the dog you want to clone.
2:48
DNA of the dog you want to clone. >> And from there it needs a spark, right,
2:49
>> And from there it needs a spark, right,
2:49
>> And from there it needs a spark, right, to get it to start dividing.
2:51
to get it to start dividing.
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to get it to start dividing. >> It does. They usually use a tiny
2:52
>> It does. They usually use a tiny
2:52
>> It does. They usually use a tiny electrical pulse. It tricks the egg into
2:55
electrical pulse. It tricks the egg into
2:55
electrical pulse. It tricks the egg into thinking it's been fertilized. And if it
2:56
thinking it's been fertilized. And if it
2:56
thinking it's been fertilized. And if it works, it begins to divide and grow just
2:59
works, it begins to divide and grow just
2:59
works, it begins to divide and grow just like a normal embryo.
3:00
like a normal embryo.
3:00
like a normal embryo. >> Which brings us to the final step,
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>> Which brings us to the final step,
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>> Which brings us to the final step, >> implantation. That new embryo is
3:04
>> implantation. That new embryo is
3:04
>> implantation. That new embryo is transferred into the uterus of a
3:06
transferred into the uterus of a
3:06
transferred into the uterus of a surrogate mother dog.
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surrogate mother dog.
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surrogate mother dog. >> And to be really clear here, that
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>> And to be really clear here, that
3:09
>> And to be really clear here, that surrogate dog has zero genetic
3:11
surrogate dog has zero genetic
3:11
surrogate dog has zero genetic connection to the puppy.
3:12
connection to the puppy.
3:12
connection to the puppy. >> None at all. She's the incubator. She
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>> None at all. She's the incubator. She
3:14
>> None at all. She's the incubator. She carries the puppy to term and gives
3:16
carries the puppy to term and gives
3:16
carries the puppy to term and gives birth. But the puppy is a perfect
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birth. But the puppy is a perfect
3:18
birth. But the puppy is a perfect genetic copy of the original donor dog.
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genetic copy of the original donor dog.
3:21
genetic copy of the original donor dog. >> So on paper, it's one, two, three steps.
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>> So on paper, it's one, two, three steps.
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>> So on paper, it's one, two, three steps. But
3:25
But
3:25
But >> it's not that simple, is it? I mean, the
3:26
>> it's not that simple, is it? I mean, the
3:26
>> it's not that simple, is it? I mean, the reason this costs what, $50,000 is
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reason this costs what, $50,000 is
3:28
reason this costs what, $50,000 is because it's incredibly difficult with
3:30
because it's incredibly difficult with
3:30
because it's incredibly difficult with dogs. That is probably the biggest
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dogs. That is probably the biggest
3:32
dogs. That is probably the biggest understatement we could make. It is
3:33
understatement we could make. It is
3:34
understatement we could make. It is astronomically difficult, far harder
3:37
astronomically difficult, far harder
3:37
astronomically difficult, far harder than cloning a sheep like Dolly or a
3:39
than cloning a sheep like Dolly or a
3:39
than cloning a sheep like Dolly or a mouse.
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mouse.
3:39
mouse. >> Why? What's so unique about dogs?
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>> Why? What's so unique about dogs?
3:41
>> Why? What's so unique about dogs? >> It comes down to their reproductive
3:43
>> It comes down to their reproductive
3:43
>> It comes down to their reproductive biology. Female dogs have a very
3:45
biology. Female dogs have a very
3:45
biology. Female dogs have a very specific, very short window for
3:47
specific, very short window for
3:47
specific, very short window for ovulation. And this is the real kicker.
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ovulation. And this is the real kicker.
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ovulation. And this is the real kicker. The eggs they ovulate are immature.
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The eggs they ovulate are immature.
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The eggs they ovulate are immature. >> Immature.
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>> Immature.
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>> Immature. >> Yeah. They're not immediately ready for
3:55
>> Yeah. They're not immediately ready for
3:55
>> Yeah. They're not immediately ready for fertilization. They need to mature for a
3:56
fertilization. They need to mature for a
3:56
fertilization. They need to mature for a few days after being released. of trying
3:58
few days after being released. of trying
3:58
few days after being released. of trying to harvest eggs at the exact right
4:00
to harvest eggs at the exact right
4:00
to harvest eggs at the exact right moment for manipulation in a lab. It's a
4:02
moment for manipulation in a lab. It's a
4:02
moment for manipulation in a lab. It's a huge challenge. The timing is everything
4:04
huge challenge. The timing is everything
4:04
huge challenge. The timing is everything and it's incredibly hard to get right.
4:06
and it's incredibly hard to get right.
4:06
and it's incredibly hard to get right. >> So because of that, the success rate
4:07
>> So because of that, the success rate
4:07
>> So because of that, the success rate must be pretty low.
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must be pretty low.
4:10
must be pretty low. >> Abysmal historically. Even now with all
4:13
>> Abysmal historically. Even now with all
4:13
>> Abysmal historically. Even now with all the advances, the success rate, meaning
4:15
the advances, the success rate, meaning
4:15
the advances, the success rate, meaning live births from implanted embryos, is
4:17
live births from implanted embryos, is
4:17
live births from implanted embryos, is often in the low single digits. One or
4:20
often in the low single digits. One or
4:20
often in the low single digits. One or two% maybe.
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two% maybe.
4:21
two% maybe. >> That's a good estimate. So you can
4:22
>> That's a good estimate. So you can
4:22
>> That's a good estimate. So you can imagine to get one successful clone, you
4:25
imagine to get one successful clone, you
4:25
imagine to get one successful clone, you might need hundreds of eggs, multiple
4:27
might need hundreds of eggs, multiple
4:27
might need hundreds of eggs, multiple attempts at nuclear transfer, and
4:29
attempts at nuclear transfer, and
4:29
attempts at nuclear transfer, and several surrogate mothers.
4:31
several surrogate mothers.
4:31
several surrogate mothers. >> Wow. Okay, that context is so important.
4:35
>> Wow. Okay, that context is so important.
4:35
>> Wow. Okay, that context is so important. The sheer amount of biological material
4:37
The sheer amount of biological material
4:37
The sheer amount of biological material and effort involved for one single
4:39
and effort involved for one single
4:39
and effort involved for one single puppy. We have to keep that in mind when
4:40
puppy. We have to keep that in mind when
4:40
puppy. We have to keep that in mind when we get to the ethics.
4:42
we get to the ethics.
4:42
we get to the ethics. >> Absolutely.
4:42
>> Absolutely.
4:42
>> Absolutely. >> But despite all these challenges, they
4:44
>> But despite all these challenges, they
4:44
>> But despite all these challenges, they did crack it. And the breakthrough
4:46
did crack it. And the breakthrough
4:46
did crack it. And the breakthrough didn't happen in the US or Europe, did
4:48
didn't happen in the US or Europe, did
4:48
didn't happen in the US or Europe, did it?
4:48
it?
4:48
it? >> No, it came from South Korea. The big
4:51
>> No, it came from South Korea. The big
4:51
>> No, it came from South Korea. The big moment was April 24, 2005. That was the
4:54
moment was April 24, 2005. That was the
4:54
moment was April 24, 2005. That was the day the world's first cloned dog was
4:56
day the world's first cloned dog was
4:56
day the world's first cloned dog was born. An Afghan hound named Snupy.
4:59
born. An Afghan hound named Snupy.
5:00
born. An Afghan hound named Snupy. >> Snupy. I remember the pictures. It was
5:01
>> Snupy. I remember the pictures. It was
5:01
>> Snupy. I remember the pictures. It was huge news.
5:02
huge news.
5:02
huge news. >> It was a massive scientific milestone.
5:04
>> It was a massive scientific milestone.
5:04
>> It was a massive scientific milestone. It proved that these huge biological
5:06
It proved that these huge biological
5:06
It proved that these huge biological hurdles in canine reproduction could be
5:08
hurdles in canine reproduction could be
5:08
hurdles in canine reproduction could be overcome. And honestly, it validated the
5:10
overcome. And honestly, it validated the
5:10
overcome. And honestly, it validated the entire concept. It paved the way for the
5:12
entire concept. It paved the way for the
5:12
entire concept. It paved the way for the whole commercial industry we see today.
5:14
whole commercial industry we see today.
5:14
whole commercial industry we see today. Without Sny, there would be no $50,000
5:17
Without Sny, there would be no $50,000
5:17
Without Sny, there would be no $50,000 pet cloning services.
5:18
pet cloning services.
5:18
pet cloning services. >> So, the science is there. it's
5:19
>> So, the science is there. it's
5:20
>> So, the science is there. it's established even if it's really really
5:21
established even if it's really really
5:21
established even if it's really really hard.
5:22
hard.
5:22
hard. >> So let's pivot to the why.
5:24
>> So let's pivot to the why.
5:24
>> So let's pivot to the why. >> What are the advantages that drive
5:26
>> What are the advantages that drive
5:26
>> What are the advantages that drive someone to go down this
5:28
someone to go down this
5:28
someone to go down this incredibly complex and expensive path?
5:31
incredibly complex and expensive path?
5:31
incredibly complex and expensive path? >> Well, the number one reason, as we
5:33
>> Well, the number one reason, as we
5:33
>> Well, the number one reason, as we touched on, is that emotional bond. It's
5:35
touched on, is that emotional bond. It's
5:35
touched on, is that emotional bond. It's about continuity. It's for the owner who
5:37
about continuity. It's for the owner who
5:37
about continuity. It's for the owner who had such a profound once-ina-lifetime
5:39
had such a profound once-ina-lifetime
5:39
had such a profound once-ina-lifetime connection with the dog that the idea of
5:41
connection with the dog that the idea of
5:41
connection with the dog that the idea of that bond just ending is unbearable.
5:44
that bond just ending is unbearable.
5:44
that bond just ending is unbearable. >> So, they're trying to keep that physical
5:46
>> So, they're trying to keep that physical
5:46
>> So, they're trying to keep that physical presence, that lineage going.
5:48
presence, that lineage going.
5:48
presence, that lineage going. >> Exactly. It's an attempt to, you know,
5:50
>> Exactly. It's an attempt to, you know,
5:50
>> Exactly. It's an attempt to, you know, soften the blow of death to not have to
5:52
soften the blow of death to not have to
5:52
soften the blow of death to not have to say a final goodbye.
5:53
say a final goodbye.
5:53
say a final goodbye. >> And I imagine this is even more intense
5:56
>> And I imagine this is even more intense
5:56
>> And I imagine this is even more intense for people who rely on their dogs for
5:57
for people who rely on their dogs for
5:58
for people who rely on their dogs for emotional support.
5:59
emotional support.
5:59
emotional support. >> Oh, absolutely. For someone dealing
6:00
>> Oh, absolutely. For someone dealing
6:00
>> Oh, absolutely. For someone dealing with, say, anxiety or depression, a
6:03
with, say, anxiety or depression, a
6:03
with, say, anxiety or depression, a specific dog can be a lifeline. Their
6:05
specific dog can be a lifeline. Their
6:05
specific dog can be a lifeline. Their routine, their comfort, their
6:06
routine, their comfort, their
6:06
routine, their comfort, their non-judgmental presence, it can be
6:08
non-judgmental presence, it can be
6:08
non-judgmental presence, it can be critical for stability. Losing that
6:10
critical for stability. Losing that
6:10
critical for stability. Losing that animal isn't just sad, it's
6:12
animal isn't just sad, it's
6:12
animal isn't just sad, it's destabilizing. So for them, cloning can
6:14
destabilizing. So for them, cloning can
6:14
destabilizing. So for them, cloning can feel less like a luxury and more like an
6:17
feel less like a luxury and more like an
6:17
feel less like a luxury and more like an investment in their own continued
6:19
investment in their own continued
6:19
investment in their own continued well-being.
6:19
well-being.
6:19
well-being. >> That makes sense. But the reasons go
6:22
>> That makes sense. But the reasons go
6:22
>> That makes sense. But the reasons go beyond just personal comfort, right?
6:23
beyond just personal comfort, right?
6:23
beyond just personal comfort, right? There are some hard science arguments
6:25
There are some hard science arguments
6:25
There are some hard science arguments for it, too.
6:25
for it, too.
6:26
for it, too. >> There are, and this is where it gets
6:27
>> There are, and this is where it gets
6:27
>> There are, and this is where it gets into breed preservation and genetics.
6:29
into breed preservation and genetics.
6:29
into breed preservation and genetics. One of the big arguments is the
6:31
One of the big arguments is the
6:31
One of the big arguments is the potential to avoid genetic diseases.
6:33
potential to avoid genetic diseases.
6:33
potential to avoid genetic diseases. >> How so?
6:34
>> How so?
6:34
>> How so? >> Well, think about many purebreds. So
6:37
>> Well, think about many purebreds. So
6:37
>> Well, think about many purebreds. So many breeds are plagued by hereditary
6:39
many breeds are plagued by hereditary
6:39
many breeds are plagued by hereditary issues, hip dysplasia, heart conditions,
6:42
issues, hip dysplasia, heart conditions,
6:42
issues, hip dysplasia, heart conditions, certain cancers. Right?
6:43
certain cancers. Right?
6:43
certain cancers. Right? >> If you have a dog that lived to be, say,
6:46
>> If you have a dog that lived to be, say,
6:46
>> If you have a dog that lived to be, say, 15 years old and was perfectly healthy,
6:48
15 years old and was perfectly healthy,
6:48
15 years old and was perfectly healthy, free of all those common problems for
6:49
free of all those common problems for
6:50
free of all those common problems for its breed, that dog is genetically
6:52
its breed, that dog is genetically
6:52
its breed, that dog is genetically exceptional. By cloning it, you're
6:54
exceptional. By cloning it, you're
6:54
exceptional. By cloning it, you're essentially locking in that proven
6:56
essentially locking in that proven
6:56
essentially locking in that proven healthy genetic profile. You're creating
6:58
healthy genetic profile. You're creating
6:58
healthy genetic profile. You're creating a new generation that won't inherit
7:00
a new generation that won't inherit
7:00
a new generation that won't inherit those known flaws.
7:01
those known flaws.
7:01
those known flaws. >> So, it's like a form of genetic
7:03
>> So, it's like a form of genetic
7:03
>> So, it's like a form of genetic purification in a way.
7:04
purification in a way.
7:04
purification in a way. >> That's a good way to put it. And that
7:06
>> That's a good way to put it. And that
7:06
>> That's a good way to put it. And that leads directly to longevity and
7:07
leads directly to longevity and
7:07
leads directly to longevity and preserving the best of a breed. A
7:10
preserving the best of a breed. A
7:10
preserving the best of a breed. A breeder with a champion showd dog, one
7:12
breeder with a champion showd dog, one
7:12
breeder with a champion showd dog, one with a perfect temperament and physique.
7:14
with a perfect temperament and physique.
7:14
with a perfect temperament and physique. Cloning allows them to replicate those
7:16
Cloning allows them to replicate those
7:16
Cloning allows them to replicate those ideal genetics. It's a tool for
7:18
ideal genetics. It's a tool for
7:18
ideal genetics. It's a tool for enhancing the breed over the long term.
7:20
enhancing the breed over the long term.
7:20
enhancing the breed over the long term. >> And I suppose for very rare breeds, it
7:22
>> And I suppose for very rare breeds, it
7:22
>> And I suppose for very rare breeds, it could be a way to prevent them from
7:23
could be a way to prevent them from
7:23
could be a way to prevent them from disappearing entirely.
7:25
disappearing entirely.
7:25
disappearing entirely. >> Yes, that's the conservation angle. For
7:27
>> Yes, that's the conservation angle. For
7:27
>> Yes, that's the conservation angle. For endangered breeds, cloning could be a
7:29
endangered breeds, cloning could be a
7:29
endangered breeds, cloning could be a crucial tool to prevent extinction. It
7:32
crucial tool to prevent extinction. It
7:32
crucial tool to prevent extinction. It keeps their unique genetic heritage
7:34
keeps their unique genetic heritage
7:34
keeps their unique genetic heritage alive, which contributes to the overall
7:36
alive, which contributes to the overall
7:36
alive, which contributes to the overall genetic diversity of canines.
7:38
genetic diversity of canines.
7:38
genetic diversity of canines. >> And we can't forget the scientific
7:40
>> And we can't forget the scientific
7:40
>> And we can't forget the scientific contribution itself. The process of
7:42
contribution itself. The process of
7:42
contribution itself. The process of cloning dogs, even if it's for
7:44
cloning dogs, even if it's for
7:44
cloning dogs, even if it's for commercial reasons, must generate a ton
7:46
commercial reasons, must generate a ton
7:46
commercial reasons, must generate a ton of useful data for veterinary medicine.
7:49
of useful data for veterinary medicine.
7:49
of useful data for veterinary medicine. >> A huge amount. Every time they perform
7:51
>> A huge amount. Every time they perform
7:51
>> A huge amount. Every time they perform SCNT, every time they study a cloned
7:52
SCNT, every time they study a cloned
7:52
SCNT, every time they study a cloned animal, scientists learn more about how
7:54
animal, scientists learn more about how
7:54
animal, scientists learn more about how genes are expressed, how they're
7:56
genes are expressed, how they're
7:56
genes are expressed, how they're regulated.
7:56
regulated.
7:56
regulated. >> So, the insights go way beyond just the
7:58
>> So, the insights go way beyond just the
7:58
>> So, the insights go way beyond just the one cloned puppy. far beyond the
8:00
one cloned puppy. far beyond the
8:00
one cloned puppy. far beyond the knowledge gained helps with research
8:02
knowledge gained helps with research
8:02
knowledge gained helps with research into fertility treatments, regenerative
8:04
into fertility treatments, regenerative
8:04
into fertility treatments, regenerative medicine, and genetic diseases for all
8:06
medicine, and genetic diseases for all
8:06
medicine, and genetic diseases for all animals. So, in a way, every cloned pet
8:09
animals. So, in a way, every cloned pet
8:09
animals. So, in a way, every cloned pet contributes to a body of knowledge that
8:11
contributes to a body of knowledge that
8:11
contributes to a body of knowledge that could help countless other animals down
8:13
could help countless other animals down
8:13
could help countless other animals down the line.
8:13
the line.
8:13
the line. >> Okay, so those are some really
8:14
>> Okay, so those are some really
8:14
>> Okay, so those are some really compelling arguments, but for every one
8:17
compelling arguments, but for every one
8:17
compelling arguments, but for every one of those points, there's a counterpoint.
8:18
of those points, there's a counterpoint.
8:18
of those points, there's a counterpoint. And this is where the conversation gets
8:21
And this is where the conversation gets
8:21
And this is where the conversation gets well, really difficult.
8:23
well, really difficult.
8:23
well, really difficult. >> It is because we now have to talk about
8:25
>> It is because we now have to talk about
8:25
>> It is because we now have to talk about the ethical cost, the financial cost,
8:26
the ethical cost, the financial cost,
8:26
the ethical cost, the financial cost, and the biological risks. Start with the
8:29
and the biological risks. Start with the
8:29
and the biological risks. Start with the big one, the core ethical debate. Is
8:32
big one, the core ethical debate. Is
8:32
big one, the core ethical debate. Is this just unnatural?
8:35
this just unnatural?
8:35
this just unnatural? >> That's the argument from a lot of
8:36
>> That's the argument from a lot of
8:36
>> That's the argument from a lot of critics that it's a fundamental
8:38
critics that it's a fundamental
8:38
critics that it's a fundamental manipulation of life and death that
8:40
manipulation of life and death that
8:40
manipulation of life and death that humans shouldn't be involved in that
8:42
humans shouldn't be involved in that
8:42
humans shouldn't be involved in that reproduction should happen naturally.
8:44
reproduction should happen naturally.
8:44
reproduction should happen naturally. >> But the criticism goes deeper than just
8:46
>> But the criticism goes deeper than just
8:46
>> But the criticism goes deeper than just a philosophical objection, doesn't it?
8:48
a philosophical objection, doesn't it?
8:48
a philosophical objection, doesn't it? It's about animal welfare during the
8:51
It's about animal welfare during the
8:51
It's about animal welfare during the process itself.
8:51
process itself.
8:51
process itself. >> It is. It is. Remember that low success
8:53
>> It is. It is. Remember that low success
8:53
>> It is. It is. Remember that low success rate we talked about? 1 to 2%. Yeah. To
8:56
rate we talked about? 1 to 2%. Yeah. To
8:56
rate we talked about? 1 to 2%. Yeah. To get that one success, the process
8:58
get that one success, the process
8:58
get that one success, the process requires numerous surrogate mother dogs.
9:01
requires numerous surrogate mother dogs.
9:01
requires numerous surrogate mother dogs. And those dogs have to undergo hormone
9:03
And those dogs have to undergo hormone
9:03
And those dogs have to undergo hormone treatments to prepare their bodies, then
9:05
treatments to prepare their bodies, then
9:05
treatments to prepare their bodies, then surgical procedures to implant the
9:07
surgical procedures to implant the
9:07
surgical procedures to implant the embryos. Many of those pregnancies won't
9:09
embryos. Many of those pregnancies won't
9:09
embryos. Many of those pregnancies won't take.
9:09
take.
9:09
take. >> So, you could have a dozen or more
9:11
>> So, you could have a dozen or more
9:11
>> So, you could have a dozen or more female dogs going through all of this
9:12
female dogs going through all of this
9:12
female dogs going through all of this for one client's puppy.
9:14
for one client's puppy.
9:14
for one client's puppy. >> Exactly. And critics ask, is the
9:16
>> Exactly. And critics ask, is the
9:16
>> Exactly. And critics ask, is the well-being and potential suffering of
9:18
well-being and potential suffering of
9:18
well-being and potential suffering of all those animals worth the outcome for
9:19
all those animals worth the outcome for
9:20
all those animals worth the outcome for one wealthy owner? It's a powerful
9:22
one wealthy owner? It's a powerful
9:22
one wealthy owner? It's a powerful question, especially when you think
9:23
question, especially when you think
9:23
question, especially when you think about resource allocation.
9:24
about resource allocation.
9:24
about resource allocation. >> The money 50,000
9:28
>> The money 50,000
9:28
>> The money 50,000 >> at least. And that's where the ethical
9:30
>> at least. And that's where the ethical
9:30
>> at least. And that's where the ethical argument gets really sharp. Critics say,
9:32
argument gets really sharp. Critics say,
9:32
argument gets really sharp. Critics say, think of what that $50,000 could do for
9:35
think of what that $50,000 could do for
9:35
think of what that $50,000 could do for animal welfare in general.
9:36
animal welfare in general.
9:36
animal welfare in general. >> You could fund a massive spay and neuter
9:38
>> You could fund a massive spay and neuter
9:38
>> You could fund a massive spay and neuter program. You could support a shelter for
9:40
program. You could support a shelter for
9:40
program. You could support a shelter for an entire year.
9:41
an entire year.
9:41
an entire year. >> You could save hundreds, maybe thousands
9:44
>> You could save hundreds, maybe thousands
9:44
>> You could save hundreds, maybe thousands of dogs from euthanasia. So it creates
9:46
of dogs from euthanasia. So it creates
9:46
of dogs from euthanasia. So it creates this direct tension between the desire
9:49
this direct tension between the desire
9:49
this direct tension between the desire to replicate one specific beloved animal
9:53
to replicate one specific beloved animal
9:53
to replicate one specific beloved animal and the needs of the broader suffering
9:55
and the needs of the broader suffering
9:55
and the needs of the broader suffering animal population. It's an uncomfortable
9:57
animal population. It's an uncomfortable
9:57
animal population. It's an uncomfortable truth
9:58
truth
9:58
truth >> and it makes this a solution only for
10:00
>> and it makes this a solution only for
10:00
>> and it makes this a solution only for the very wealthy. It's not a grief
10:01
the very wealthy. It's not a grief
10:01
the very wealthy. It's not a grief solution for the average person.
10:03
solution for the average person.
10:03
solution for the average person. >> Not even close. It's a service for the
10:05
>> Not even close. It's a service for the
10:05
>> Not even close. It's a service for the 1% which adds another layer of ethical
10:07
1% which adds another layer of ethical
10:07
1% which adds another layer of ethical debate around privilege and access.
10:10
debate around privilege and access.
10:10
debate around privilege and access. >> Okay. So beyond the ethics and the cost,
10:12
>> Okay. So beyond the ethics and the cost,
10:12
>> Okay. So beyond the ethics and the cost, what about the clone itself? Is it a
10:15
what about the clone itself? Is it a
10:15
what about the clone itself? Is it a healthy animal?
10:15
healthy animal?
10:15
healthy animal? >> That's a huge question with no easy
10:17
>> That's a huge question with no easy
10:17
>> That's a huge question with no easy answer. There are very real biological
10:19
answer. There are very real biological
10:19
answer. There are very real biological risks. The SC&T process is while it's
10:22
risks. The SC&T process is while it's
10:22
risks. The SC&T process is while it's traumatic on a cellular level, it's not
10:23
traumatic on a cellular level, it's not
10:24
traumatic on a cellular level, it's not a perfect gentle process
10:25
a perfect gentle process
10:25
a perfect gentle process >> and that can lead to defects.
10:26
>> and that can lead to defects.
10:26
>> and that can lead to defects. >> It can. In the early days of cloning
10:29
>> It can. In the early days of cloning
10:29
>> It can. In the early days of cloning other mammals, there were issues like
10:31
other mammals, there were issues like
10:31
other mammals, there were issues like large offspring syndrome where the
10:32
large offspring syndrome where the
10:32
large offspring syndrome where the clones were born abnormally large
10:34
clones were born abnormally large
10:34
clones were born abnormally large causing birth complications. There are
10:36
causing birth complications. There are
10:36
causing birth complications. There are also concerns that clones might have
10:38
also concerns that clones might have
10:38
also concerns that clones might have weaker immune systems or show signs of
10:40
weaker immune systems or show signs of
10:40
weaker immune systems or show signs of accelerated aging because the DNA they
10:42
accelerated aging because the DNA they
10:42
accelerated aging because the DNA they start with is from an adult cell.
10:44
start with is from an adult cell.
10:44
start with is from an adult cell. >> So, you could spend all that money and
10:47
>> So, you could spend all that money and
10:47
>> So, you could spend all that money and end up with an animal that is
10:48
end up with an animal that is
10:48
end up with an animal that is predisposed to health problems and a
10:50
predisposed to health problems and a
10:50
predisposed to health problems and a shorter life.
10:51
shorter life.
10:51
shorter life. >> It's a definite risk, a significant one.
10:53
>> It's a definite risk, a significant one.
10:53
>> It's a definite risk, a significant one. The science has improved, but it's not a
10:55
The science has improved, but it's not a
10:55
The science has improved, but it's not a risk that's been eliminated.
10:56
risk that's been eliminated.
10:56
risk that's been eliminated. >> And that brings us to what might be the
10:58
>> And that brings us to what might be the
10:58
>> And that brings us to what might be the most heartbreaking problem of all, the
11:01
most heartbreaking problem of all, the
11:01
most heartbreaking problem of all, the one that happens after the puppy comes
11:02
one that happens after the puppy comes
11:02
one that happens after the puppy comes home. The nature versus nurture debate.
11:05
home. The nature versus nurture debate.
11:05
home. The nature versus nurture debate. This is, I think, the source of the most
11:07
This is, I think, the source of the most
11:07
This is, I think, the source of the most profound disappointment for owners
11:09
profound disappointment for owners
11:09
profound disappointment for owners >> because you pay the money expecting to
11:11
>> because you pay the money expecting to
11:11
>> because you pay the money expecting to get your old dog back.
11:13
get your old dog back.
11:13
get your old dog back. >> Not just his looks, but him, his
11:15
>> Not just his looks, but him, his
11:15
>> Not just his looks, but him, his personality, his quirks, the way he
11:17
personality, his quirks, the way he
11:17
personality, his quirks, the way he looked at you.
11:18
looked at you.
11:18
looked at you. >> You expect to get the soul back.
11:19
>> You expect to get the soul back.
11:19
>> You expect to get the soul back. >> Yeah.
11:20
>> Yeah.
11:20
>> Yeah. >> But you can't clone a soul. You can't
11:22
>> But you can't clone a soul. You can't
11:22
>> But you can't clone a soul. You can't clone a personality. You only clone the
11:24
clone a personality. You only clone the
11:24
clone a personality. You only clone the genetic hardware. And this is where the
11:26
genetic hardware. And this is where the
11:26
genetic hardware. And this is where the science gets really fascinating. The
11:28
science gets really fascinating. The
11:28
science gets really fascinating. The term is epigenetics, right?
11:30
term is epigenetics, right?
11:30
term is epigenetics, right? >> Exactly. Epigenetics. This is the
11:32
>> Exactly. Epigenetics. This is the
11:32
>> Exactly. Epigenetics. This is the crucial concept. So the DNA sequence,
11:35
crucial concept. So the DNA sequence,
11:35
crucial concept. So the DNA sequence, the genetic blueprint is 100% identical,
11:38
the genetic blueprint is 100% identical,
11:38
the genetic blueprint is 100% identical, but epigenetics is like the software
11:40
but epigenetics is like the software
11:40
but epigenetics is like the software that runs the hardware. It's a layer of
11:43
that runs the hardware. It's a layer of
11:43
that runs the hardware. It's a layer of chemical switches on the DNA that tells
11:45
chemical switches on the DNA that tells
11:45
chemical switches on the DNA that tells the genes when to turn on and when to
11:47
the genes when to turn on and when to
11:47
the genes when to turn on and when to turn off.
11:48
turn off.
11:48
turn off. >> And that software is written by life
11:50
>> And that software is written by life
11:50
>> And that software is written by life experiences.
11:51
experiences.
11:51
experiences. >> Perfectly put, it's influenced by
11:53
>> Perfectly put, it's influenced by
11:53
>> Perfectly put, it's influenced by everything. the environment in the
11:54
everything. the environment in the
11:54
everything. the environment in the surrogate's womb, the nutrition the
11:56
surrogate's womb, the nutrition the
11:56
surrogate's womb, the nutrition the puppy gets, its early socialization, how
11:58
puppy gets, its early socialization, how
11:58
puppy gets, its early socialization, how you train it, all of these things flip
12:01
you train it, all of these things flip
12:01
you train it, all of these things flip those epigenetic switches differently.
12:03
those epigenetic switches differently.
12:03
those epigenetic switches differently. >> So, the original dog's genes might have
12:05
>> So, the original dog's genes might have
12:05
>> So, the original dog's genes might have the potential for a very calm
12:06
the potential for a very calm
12:06
the potential for a very calm temperament, but the clone's life
12:08
temperament, but the clone's life
12:08
temperament, but the clone's life experiences could mean those genes don't
12:11
experiences could mean those genes don't
12:11
experiences could mean those genes don't get expressed in the same way, and he
12:12
get expressed in the same way, and he
12:12
get expressed in the same way, and he ends up being more anxious.
12:14
ends up being more anxious.
12:14
ends up being more anxious. >> Precisely. The potential is there, but
12:16
>> Precisely. The potential is there, but
12:16
>> Precisely. The potential is there, but the outcome is not guaranteed. So, you
12:18
the outcome is not guaranteed. So, you
12:18
the outcome is not guaranteed. So, you get a dog that looks identical, but it's
12:20
get a dog that looks identical, but it's
12:20
get a dog that looks identical, but it's a completely different individual. I had
12:21
a completely different individual. I had
12:21
a completely different individual. I had a different birth, a different
12:23
a different birth, a different
12:23
a different birth, a different puppyhood. It has its own unique
12:24
puppyhood. It has its own unique
12:24
puppyhood. It has its own unique consciousness.
12:25
consciousness.
12:25
consciousness. >> And I can only imagine the pressure on
12:27
>> And I can only imagine the pressure on
12:27
>> And I can only imagine the pressure on that little puppy to live up to the
12:29
that little puppy to live up to the
12:29
that little puppy to live up to the ghost of the dog it was copied from.
12:31
ghost of the dog it was copied from.
12:31
ghost of the dog it was copied from. That must be so difficult for the owner
12:33
That must be so difficult for the owner
12:33
That must be so difficult for the owner and in a way for the dog itself.
12:35
and in a way for the dog itself.
12:35
and in a way for the dog itself. >> Yeah,
12:35
>> Yeah,
12:35
>> Yeah, >> it's a huge psychological burden. The
12:37
>> it's a huge psychological burden. The
12:37
>> it's a huge psychological burden. The clone is constantly being compared to an
12:39
clone is constantly being compared to an
12:39
clone is constantly being compared to an idealized memory. It's not a
12:41
idealized memory. It's not a
12:41
idealized memory. It's not a replacement, it's a successor. And many
12:44
replacement, it's a successor. And many
12:44
replacement, it's a successor. And many owners struggle to accept that
12:45
owners struggle to accept that
12:46
owners struggle to accept that distinction.
12:46
distinction.
12:46
distinction. >> That's a huge insight. So, let's shift
12:49
>> That's a huge insight. So, let's shift
12:49
>> That's a huge insight. So, let's shift from the theory to the practice.
12:51
from the theory to the practice.
12:51
from the theory to the practice. Where is this actually happening? What
12:53
Where is this actually happening? What
12:53
Where is this actually happening? What does the legal map look like for dog
12:55
does the legal map look like for dog
12:55
does the legal map look like for dog cloning?
12:56
cloning?
12:56
cloning? >> It's a complete patchwork. The science
12:58
>> It's a complete patchwork. The science
12:58
>> It's a complete patchwork. The science has moved way faster than the law.
13:00
has moved way faster than the law.
13:00
has moved way faster than the law. >> Let's start here in the United States.
13:02
>> Let's start here in the United States.
13:02
>> Let's start here in the United States. Is it legal?
13:03
Is it legal?
13:03
Is it legal? >> Yes. There are no federal laws that ban
13:06
>> Yes. There are no federal laws that ban
13:06
>> Yes. There are no federal laws that ban or even specifically regulate dog
13:08
or even specifically regulate dog
13:08
or even specifically regulate dog cloning. It operates in this legal gray
13:11
cloning. It operates in this legal gray
13:11
cloning. It operates in this legal gray area. States could make their own rules,
13:14
area. States could make their own rules,
13:14
area. States could make their own rules, but none have banned it. So, it's mostly
13:16
but none have banned it. So, it's mostly
13:16
but none have banned it. So, it's mostly governed by general animal welfare and
13:17
governed by general animal welfare and
13:18
governed by general animal welfare and veterinary laws,
13:18
veterinary laws,
13:18
veterinary laws, >> which feels a little inadequate for such
13:20
>> which feels a little inadequate for such
13:20
>> which feels a little inadequate for such a specific technology.
13:21
a specific technology.
13:21
a specific technology. >> It does. Now, compare that to South
13:23
>> It does. Now, compare that to South
13:23
>> It does. Now, compare that to South Korea as the birthplace of Sny. They've
13:26
Korea as the birthplace of Sny. They've
13:26
Korea as the birthplace of Sny. They've leaned into it. They are the global hub.
13:28
leaned into it. They are the global hub.
13:28
leaned into it. They are the global hub. >> They have the best labs, the most
13:30
>> They have the best labs, the most
13:30
>> They have the best labs, the most experience,
13:31
experience,
13:31
experience, >> right? They've invested heavily. So, if
13:32
>> right? They've invested heavily. So, if
13:32
>> right? They've invested heavily. So, if you're a wealthy person anywhere in the
13:34
you're a wealthy person anywhere in the
13:34
you're a wealthy person anywhere in the world who wants to clone your pet,
13:36
world who wants to clone your pet,
13:36
world who wants to clone your pet, there's a very good chance you're
13:37
there's a very good chance you're
13:37
there's a very good chance you're working with a company based in South
13:38
working with a company based in South
13:38
working with a company based in South Korea.
13:39
Korea.
13:39
Korea. >> What about Europe? I'd imagine they're
13:41
>> What about Europe? I'd imagine they're
13:41
>> What about Europe? I'd imagine they're stricter.
13:42
stricter.
13:42
stricter. >> Much stricter. In the UK, for instance,
13:44
>> Much stricter. In the UK, for instance,
13:44
>> Much stricter. In the UK, for instance, it's legal but very tightly regulated.
13:47
it's legal but very tightly regulated.
13:47
it's legal but very tightly regulated. The government keeps a close eye on it
13:48
The government keeps a close eye on it
13:48
The government keeps a close eye on it to ensure animal welfare standards are
13:50
to ensure animal welfare standards are
13:50
to ensure animal welfare standards are met to try and prevent the kind of
13:52
met to try and prevent the kind of
13:52
met to try and prevent the kind of suffering we talked about with the
13:53
suffering we talked about with the
13:53
suffering we talked about with the surrogates.
13:54
surrogates.
13:54
surrogates. >> In Australia is similar,
13:55
>> In Australia is similar,
13:55
>> In Australia is similar, >> very similar. They allow it, but with
13:57
>> very similar. They allow it, but with
13:58
>> very similar. They allow it, but with strict rules focused on responsible
14:00
strict rules focused on responsible
14:00
strict rules focused on responsible practices and minimizing any harm.
14:02
practices and minimizing any harm.
14:02
practices and minimizing any harm. They're trying to find that balance
14:04
They're trying to find that balance
14:04
They're trying to find that balance between allowing the science and
14:06
between allowing the science and
14:06
between allowing the science and protecting the animals.
14:07
protecting the animals.
14:07
protecting the animals. >> Then you have a place like China,
14:08
>> Then you have a place like China,
14:08
>> Then you have a place like China, >> which is more of a wild west situation.
14:11
>> which is more of a wild west situation.
14:11
>> which is more of a wild west situation. There aren't really any specific laws,
14:13
There aren't really any specific laws,
14:13
There aren't really any specific laws, but private companies are offering the
14:15
but private companies are offering the
14:15
but private companies are offering the service. That lack of clear rules raises
14:18
service. That lack of clear rules raises
14:18
service. That lack of clear rules raises a lot of concerns about ethics and
14:20
a lot of concerns about ethics and
14:20
a lot of concerns about ethics and what's actually going on in those
14:21
what's actually going on in those
14:21
what's actually going on in those facilities.
14:22
facilities.
14:22
facilities. >> So, it really depends where you are in
14:23
>> So, it really depends where you are in
14:23
>> So, it really depends where you are in the world. Now, commercially, this all
14:25
the world. Now, commercially, this all
14:25
the world. Now, commercially, this all really took off because of one specific
14:27
really took off because of one specific
14:27
really took off because of one specific pet, right? A dog named Missy.
14:29
pet, right? A dog named Missy.
14:30
pet, right? A dog named Missy. >> That's right. The Missiplicity project
14:31
>> That's right. The Missiplicity project
14:31
>> That's right. The Missiplicity project back in 2005 was the spark. Missy's
14:34
back in 2005 was the spark. Missy's
14:34
back in 2005 was the spark. Missy's owner was a very wealthy individual who
14:36
owner was a very wealthy individual who
14:36
owner was a very wealthy individual who poured a lot of money into the research.
14:39
poured a lot of money into the research.
14:39
poured a lot of money into the research. That project essentially proved there
14:40
That project essentially proved there
14:40
That project essentially proved there was a commercial market for this. It
14:42
was a commercial market for this. It
14:42
was a commercial market for this. It took it from an academic curiosity to a
14:45
took it from an academic curiosity to a
14:45
took it from an academic curiosity to a viable business.
14:46
viable business.
14:46
viable business. >> And since then, we've seen it used for
14:48
>> And since then, we've seen it used for
14:48
>> And since then, we've seen it used for more than just grieving pet owners.
14:50
more than just grieving pet owners.
14:50
more than just grieving pet owners. There have been working dogs cloned.
14:52
There have been working dogs cloned.
14:52
There have been working dogs cloned. >> Yes. The case of Nubia is a great
14:54
>> Yes. The case of Nubia is a great
14:54
>> Yes. The case of Nubia is a great example. Nubia was a decorated police
14:57
example. Nubia was a decorated police
14:57
example. Nubia was a decorated police canine killed in the line of duty.
14:59
canine killed in the line of duty.
14:59
canine killed in the line of duty. >> A hero dog.
15:00
>> A hero dog.
15:00
>> A hero dog. >> Absolutely. And her clone, Nubia's
15:02
>> Absolutely. And her clone, Nubia's
15:02
>> Absolutely. And her clone, Nubia's puppy, wasn't created to be a pet. It
15:05
puppy, wasn't created to be a pet. It
15:05
puppy, wasn't created to be a pet. It was created to preserve those elite
15:07
was created to preserve those elite
15:07
was created to preserve those elite working traits, the intelligence, the
15:08
working traits, the intelligence, the
15:08
working traits, the intelligence, the scenting ability, the drive. It was
15:11
scenting ability, the drive. It was
15:11
scenting ability, the drive. It was about quality control for a line of
15:13
about quality control for a line of
15:13
about quality control for a line of professional working dogs,
15:14
professional working dogs,
15:14
professional working dogs, >> which is a completely different
15:15
>> which is a completely different
15:15
>> which is a completely different motivation. And that brings us to the
15:17
motivation. And that brings us to the
15:17
motivation. And that brings us to the the undisputed champion of dog cloning,
15:20
the undisputed champion of dog cloning,
15:20
the undisputed champion of dog cloning, the one that takes this whole idea to a
15:22
the one that takes this whole idea to a
15:22
the one that takes this whole idea to a different level. Miracle Millie.
15:23
different level. Miracle Millie.
15:23
different level. Miracle Millie. >> Ah, yes. Miracle Millie.
15:25
>> Ah, yes. Miracle Millie.
15:25
>> Ah, yes. Miracle Millie. >> Tell us about her. She was famous even
15:27
>> Tell us about her. She was famous even
15:27
>> Tell us about her. She was famous even before the cloning. Right.
15:28
before the cloning. Right.
15:28
before the cloning. Right. >> She was. Millie was a tiny Chihuahua
15:30
>> She was. Millie was a tiny Chihuahua
15:30
>> She was. Millie was a tiny Chihuahua from Puerto Rico. She held the Guinness
15:32
from Puerto Rico. She held the Guinness
15:32
from Puerto Rico. She held the Guinness World Record for being the smallest dog.
15:34
World Record for being the smallest dog.
15:34
World Record for being the smallest dog. We're talking just one pound and under 4
15:37
We're talking just one pound and under 4
15:37
We're talking just one pound and under 4 in tall.
15:37
in tall.
15:38
in tall. >> Wow. Just a little creature.
15:40
>> Wow. Just a little creature.
15:40
>> Wow. Just a little creature. >> A tiny unique animal. And her owner
15:42
>> A tiny unique animal. And her owner
15:42
>> A tiny unique animal. And her owner decided that uniqueness was worth
15:44
decided that uniqueness was worth
15:44
decided that uniqueness was worth preserving. So in 2011, Millie was
15:47
preserving. So in 2011, Millie was
15:47
preserving. So in 2011, Millie was cloned. They took a small skin sample
15:49
cloned. They took a small skin sample
15:49
cloned. They took a small skin sample and went through the whole se process
15:52
and went through the whole se process
15:52
and went through the whole se process >> and it was a success.
15:53
>> and it was a success.
15:53
>> and it was a success. >> It was. But that's not the amazing part
15:55
>> It was. But that's not the amazing part
15:55
>> It was. But that's not the amazing part of the story. The amazing part is the
15:57
of the story. The amazing part is the
15:58
of the story. The amazing part is the scale.
15:58
scale.
15:58
scale. >> This is the record, right?
15:59
>> This is the record, right?
15:59
>> This is the record, right? >> This is the record. Miracle Millie is
16:01
>> This is the record. Miracle Millie is
16:01
>> This is the record. Miracle Millie is the most cloned dog in history. She has
16:03
the most cloned dog in history. She has
16:04
the most cloned dog in history. She has been recreated 49 times.
16:07
been recreated 49 times.
16:07
been recreated 49 times. >> Wait, 49? 49.
16:09
>> Wait, 49? 49.
16:09
>> Wait, 49? 49. >> 49 times. 49 genetic replicas of this
16:11
>> 49 times. 49 genetic replicas of this
16:11
>> 49 times. 49 genetic replicas of this one tiny Chihuahua.
16:13
one tiny Chihuahua.
16:13
one tiny Chihuahua. >> I don't even know what to say to that.
16:15
>> I don't even know what to say to that.
16:15
>> I don't even know what to say to that. Why was it for research? Or did the
16:17
Why was it for research? Or did the
16:17
Why was it for research? Or did the owner just want a lot of them?
16:18
owner just want a lot of them?
16:18
owner just want a lot of them? >> It was likely a combination of things.
16:20
>> It was likely a combination of things.
16:20
>> It was likely a combination of things. Furthering the science, maybe creating a
16:22
Furthering the science, maybe creating a
16:22
Furthering the science, maybe creating a line of these tiny dogs for sale, or
16:24
line of these tiny dogs for sale, or
16:24
line of these tiny dogs for sale, or just the owner's profound attachment.
16:27
just the owner's profound attachment.
16:27
just the owner's profound attachment. But whatever the reason, that number 49,
16:29
But whatever the reason, that number 49,
16:29
But whatever the reason, that number 49, it just crystallizes the whole debate.
16:31
it just crystallizes the whole debate.
16:31
it just crystallizes the whole debate. >> It really does. On one hand, what a feat
16:33
>> It really does. On one hand, what a feat
16:33
>> It really does. On one hand, what a feat of science. On the other, are those 49
16:35
of science. On the other, are those 49
16:35
of science. On the other, are those 49 puppies really individuals?
16:38
puppies really individuals?
16:38
puppies really individuals? >> Or are they just products manufactured
16:40
>> Or are they just products manufactured
16:40
>> Or are they just products manufactured from a blueprint?
16:41
from a blueprint?
16:42
from a blueprint? >> It's a really profound question.
16:43
>> It's a really profound question.
16:43
>> It's a really profound question. >> It is.
16:44
>> It is.
16:44
>> It is. >> So, as we wrap up this deep dive, let's
16:46
>> So, as we wrap up this deep dive, let's
16:46
>> So, as we wrap up this deep dive, let's try to distill this down to the key
16:47
try to distill this down to the key
16:47
try to distill this down to the key takeaways.
16:48
takeaways.
16:48
takeaways. >> I think the first and most important one
16:50
>> I think the first and most important one
16:50
>> I think the first and most important one comes back to that nature versus nurture
16:52
comes back to that nature versus nurture
16:52
comes back to that nature versus nurture point. Cloning gives you the genetic
16:54
point. Cloning gives you the genetic
16:54
point. Cloning gives you the genetic blueprint. It preserves the traits, but
16:56
blueprint. It preserves the traits, but
16:56
blueprint. It preserves the traits, but it does not give you the same
16:57
it does not give you the same
16:58
it does not give you the same personality.
16:58
personality.
16:58
personality. >> You're not getting the same dog back.
17:00
>> You're not getting the same dog back.
17:00
>> You're not getting the same dog back. >> You are not. And any owner going into
17:02
>> You are not. And any owner going into
17:02
>> You are not. And any owner going into this has to manage that expectation. You
17:05
this has to manage that expectation. You
17:05
this has to manage that expectation. You are getting a genetic twin, a new
17:07
are getting a genetic twin, a new
17:07
are getting a genetic twin, a new individual that you have to raise and
17:08
individual that you have to raise and
17:08
individual that you have to raise and get to know all over again.
17:10
get to know all over again.
17:10
get to know all over again. >> And the second takeaway has to be about
17:12
>> And the second takeaway has to be about
17:12
>> And the second takeaway has to be about the choice itself. Yeah,
17:13
the choice itself. Yeah,
17:13
the choice itself. Yeah, >> it's a deeply personal decision, but
17:15
>> it's a deeply personal decision, but
17:15
>> it's a deeply personal decision, but it's one that forces you to weigh your
17:17
it's one that forces you to weigh your
17:17
it's one that forces you to weigh your personal, emotional needs against some
17:20
personal, emotional needs against some
17:20
personal, emotional needs against some very significant financial and ethical
17:22
very significant financial and ethical
17:22
very significant financial and ethical costs.
17:22
costs.
17:22
costs. >> Right. You have to ask yourself if the
17:24
>> Right. You have to ask yourself if the
17:24
>> Right. You have to ask yourself if the resources, the money, the science, the
17:26
resources, the money, the science, the
17:26
resources, the money, the science, the use of other animals are justified for
17:29
use of other animals are justified for
17:29
use of other animals are justified for that one outcome. It's a heavy decision.
17:31
that one outcome. It's a heavy decision.
17:31
that one outcome. It's a heavy decision. >> And for the 99.9% of us for whom this
17:34
>> And for the 99.9% of us for whom this
17:34
>> And for the 99.9% of us for whom this isn't even an option, there are other
17:37
isn't even an option, there are other
17:37
isn't even an option, there are other ways to memorialize a pet. The sources
17:39
ways to memorialize a pet. The sources
17:39
ways to memorialize a pet. The sources mentioned a few alternatives.
17:41
mentioned a few alternatives.
17:41
mentioned a few alternatives. >> Yeah. And they're becoming quite
17:42
>> Yeah. And they're becoming quite
17:42
>> Yeah. And they're becoming quite popular. Things like custommade plush
17:45
popular. Things like custommade plush
17:45
popular. Things like custommade plush replicas of your pet, so-called plush
17:48
replicas of your pet, so-called plush
17:48
replicas of your pet, so-called plush clones.
17:48
clones.
17:48
clones. >> So you get a little stuffed animal that
17:50
>> So you get a little stuffed animal that
17:50
>> So you get a little stuffed animal that looks exactly like them.
17:51
looks exactly like them.
17:51
looks exactly like them. >> Exactly. It's a comforting physical
17:53
>> Exactly. It's a comforting physical
17:53
>> Exactly. It's a comforting physical object to have and often buying one
17:56
object to have and often buying one
17:56
object to have and often buying one supports animal shelters so it has a
17:58
supports animal shelters so it has a
17:58
supports animal shelters so it has a positive impact. There are also things
18:00
positive impact. There are also things
18:00
positive impact. There are also things like custom pet portraits immortalizing
18:03
like custom pet portraits immortalizing
18:03
like custom pet portraits immortalizing them through art.
18:04
them through art.
18:04
them through art. >> So it's about finding comfort and
18:05
>> So it's about finding comfort and
18:05
>> So it's about finding comfort and closure without needing the the
18:08
closure without needing the the
18:08
closure without needing the the biological replication, honoring the
18:10
biological replication, honoring the
18:10
biological replication, honoring the memory, not trying to recreate the
18:12
memory, not trying to recreate the
18:12
memory, not trying to recreate the individual.
18:12
individual.
18:12
individual. >> I think that's what most people are
18:13
>> I think that's what most people are
18:13
>> I think that's what most people are really searching for.
18:14
really searching for.
18:14
really searching for. >> Which leads us to our final provocative
18:16
>> Which leads us to our final provocative
18:16
>> Which leads us to our final provocative thought to leave you with. We've
18:18
thought to leave you with. We've
18:18
thought to leave you with. We've established that even with the exact
18:20
established that even with the exact
18:20
established that even with the exact same DNA, clones are different because
18:22
same DNA, clones are different because
18:22
same DNA, clones are different because of their environment, because of
18:23
of their environment, because of
18:23
of their environment, because of epigenetics,
18:24
epigenetics,
18:24
epigenetics, >> they are biologically distinct in their
18:26
>> they are biologically distinct in their
18:26
>> they are biologically distinct in their lived experience.
18:27
lived experience.
18:27
lived experience. >> So, as this technology gets better and
18:29
>> So, as this technology gets better and
18:29
>> So, as this technology gets better and maybe even cheaper, we have to ask a
18:31
maybe even cheaper, we have to ask a
18:31
maybe even cheaper, we have to ask a really fundamental question. How far
18:33
really fundamental question. How far
18:33
really fundamental question. How far should we go in manipulating nature just
18:37
should we go in manipulating nature just
18:37
should we go in manipulating nature just to extend companionship? It challenges
18:39
to extend companionship? It challenges
18:39
to extend companionship? It challenges our very definition of what makes an
18:41
our very definition of what makes an
18:41
our very definition of what makes an individual unique. Is it just the code,
18:44
individual unique. Is it just the code,
18:44
individual unique. Is it just the code, the DNA,
18:45
the DNA,
18:45
the DNA, >> or is it the unre repeatable sum of
18:47
>> or is it the unre repeatable sum of
18:47
>> or is it the unre repeatable sum of their experiences, their life?
18:49
their experiences, their life?
18:49
their experiences, their life? >> And when you pay that $50,000, what are
18:51
>> And when you pay that $50,000, what are
18:51
>> And when you pay that $50,000, what are you really trying to buy back? The
18:53
you really trying to buy back? The
18:53
you really trying to buy back? The blueprint or the story?
18:55
blueprint or the story?
18:55
blueprint or the story? >> A fascinating and necessary question to
18:57
>> A fascinating and necessary question to
18:57
>> A fascinating and necessary question to ponder.
18:57
ponder.
18:57
ponder. >> We hope this deep dive has given you a
18:59
>> We hope this deep dive has given you a
18:59
>> We hope this deep dive has given you a much richer understanding of this
19:01
much richer understanding of this
19:01
much richer understanding of this incredible, complicated world. Thanks
19:02
incredible, complicated world. Thanks
19:02
incredible, complicated world. Thanks for joining us. We'll catch you next
19:03
for joining us. We'll catch you next
19:04
for joining us. We'll catch you next time.