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The Cloud Show with Magnus Mårtensson ft. Laïla Bougriâ - Ep. 32
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Aug 6, 2025
Join this live session with Magnus Mårtensson ft. Laïla Bougriâ for the next episode of The Cloud Show with Magnus Mårtensson on June 19, at 01:05 PM (EST). The show is about cloud leadership and all the important questions relating to cloud projects. Certainly, many matters when a company is going to and wants to be successful in the cloud, are about technology. However, there are many additional matters, adjacent to technology, that we also need to tend to regarding business strategy, human resources, organizational change, planning for a technical cloud approach, and many more questions. These conversations are critical for a healthy cloud and for a swift and accurate cloud approach. GUEST SPEAKER Laïla Bougriâ Passionate about software with a focus on distributed systems with messaging and currently working on NServiceBus. International speaker, Microsoft Azure MVP. 📺 CSharp TV - Dev Streaming Destination http://csharp.tv 🌎 C# Corner - Community of Software and Data Developers https://www.c-sharpcorner.com/ #CSharpTV #csharpcorner #TheCloudShow #CSharp #Interview
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hello everyone and welcome back again to
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hello everyone and welcome back again to
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hello everyone and welcome back again to the cloud show today we're going to have
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the cloud show today we're going to have
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the cloud show today we're going to have a really really good conversation with a
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a really really good conversation with a
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a really really good conversation with a friend of mine her name is Leila and she
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friend of mine her name is Leila and she
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friend of mine her name is Leila and she is a solution architect with particular
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is a solution architect with particular
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is a solution architect with particular software and she does all kinds of
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software and she does all kinds of
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software and she does all kinds of distributed application architectures
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distributed application architectures
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distributed application architectures and all those kinds of fun things I love
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and all those kinds of fun things I love
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and all those kinds of fun things I love that stuff and we're going to talk to
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that stuff and we're going to talk to
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that stuff and we're going to talk to her about being a leader in a in such a
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her about being a leader in a in such a
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her about being a leader in a in such a scenario and how do you choose between
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scenario and how do you choose between
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scenario and how do you choose between all these crazy uh services that are
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all these crazy uh services that are
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all these crazy uh services that are available in the in the cloud platforms
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available in the in the cloud platforms
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available in the in the cloud platforms today so please welcome
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today so please welcome
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today so please welcome [Music]
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Leila hello there hello how are you I'm
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Leila hello there hello how are you I'm
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Leila hello there hello how are you I'm good how are you very good it's it's
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good how are you very good it's it's
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good how are you very good it's it's it's all right over here I just
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it's all right over here I just
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it's all right over here I just literally harvested some basil that I'm
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literally harvested some basil that I'm
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literally harvested some basil that I'm going to eat I'm going to have dinner
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going to eat I'm going to have dinner
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going to eat I'm going to have dinner after this show so well here in Belgium
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after this show so well here in Belgium
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after this show so well here in Belgium nothing is growing because it's just
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nothing is growing because it's just
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nothing is growing because it's just raining you've had better weather we do
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raining you've had better weather we do
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raining you've had better weather we do actually have pretty good weather right
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actually have pretty good weather right
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actually have pretty good weather right now yeah yeah yeah we're all right sorry
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now yeah yeah yeah we're all right sorry
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now yeah yeah yeah we're all right sorry to hear about the rain but you are in
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to hear about the rain but you are in
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to hear about the rain but you are in Belgium so tell us a little bit about
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Belgium so tell us a little bit about
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Belgium so tell us a little bit about yourself you're a solution architect and
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yourself you're a solution architect and
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yourself you're a solution architect and so forth what else I'm a solution
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so forth what else I'm a solution
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so forth what else I'm a solution architect I work at particular software
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architect I work at particular software
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architect I work at particular software um and yeah I I like to sort sort of
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um and yeah I I like to sort sort of
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um and yeah I I like to sort sort of solve like complex problems and stuff
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solve like complex problems and stuff
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solve like complex problems and stuff like that also very much love knitting
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like that also very much love knitting
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like that also very much love knitting as well it's a sort of like my
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as well it's a sort of like my
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as well it's a sort of like my meditation type of exercise also helped
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meditation type of exercise also helped
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meditation type of exercise also helped me sort of like when I'm stuck in a
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me sort of like when I'm stuck in a
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me sort of like when I'm stuck in a problem then I'll
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problem then I'll
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problem then I'll just like knit a little bit and then
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just like knit a little bit and then
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just like knit a little bit and then sort of like the solution will come to
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sort of like the solution will come to
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sort of like the solution will come to me sleeping also helps well it helps but
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me sleeping also helps well it helps but
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me sleeping also helps well it helps but but you know I know for a fact that you
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but you know I know for a fact that you
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but you know I know for a fact that you also like cooking because we did some
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also like cooking because we did some
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also like cooking because we did some cooking together in the in the
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cooking together in the in the
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cooking together in the in the US that was fun especially if it's like
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US that was fun especially if it's like
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US that was fun especially if it's like you know Spanish Moroccan type of food
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you know Spanish Moroccan type of food
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you know Spanish Moroccan type of food because that's my background and I love
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because that's my background and I love
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because that's my background and I love you know I love to be able to bring a
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you know I love to be able to bring a
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you know I love to be able to bring a little bit of my own culture to the
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little bit of my own culture to the
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little bit of my own culture to the table whenever I can it's important to
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table whenever I can it's important to
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table whenever I can it's important to have other things I grow basil for
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have other things I grow basil for
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have other things I grow basil for example there you go there you go that's
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example there you go there you go that's
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example there you go there you go that's also useful you know yeah y whatever
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also useful you know yeah y whatever
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also useful you know yeah y whatever whatever works all right but so
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whatever works all right but so
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whatever works all right but so professionally you you have been uh for
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professionally you you have been uh for
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professionally you you have been uh for a couple of decades U building
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a couple of decades U building
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a couple of decades U building distributed systems and and creating
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distributed systems and and creating
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distributed systems and and creating architectures Mak me sound so old no
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architectures Mak me sound so old no
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architectures Mak me sound so old no yeah you're right you're right you had
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yeah you're right you're right you had
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yeah you're right you're right you had four other careers for that not kidding
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four other careers for that not kidding
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four other careers for that not kidding no you're fine um so um yes so you you
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no you're fine um so um yes so you you
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no you're fine um so um yes so you you do that you're are a solution architect
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do that you're are a solution architect
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do that you're are a solution architect and um and so what there there are some
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and um and so what there there are some
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and um and so what there there are some some issues right with with using um
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some issues right with with using um
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some issues right with with using um cloud services and and let me just cue
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cloud services and and let me just cue
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cloud services and and let me just cue that up a little bit I think that what I
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that up a little bit I think that what I
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that up a little bit I think that what I see with with many of my customers and
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see with with many of my customers and
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see with with many of my customers and myself is that they they're not
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myself is that they they're not
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myself is that they they're not accustomed to all of these various
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accustomed to all of these various
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accustomed to all of these various Services messaging services and database
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Services messaging services and database
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Services messaging services and database Services different different kinds of
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Services different different kinds of
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Services different different kinds of databases and this is this is hard um
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databases and this is this is hard um
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databases and this is this is hard um because you want to be able to use the
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because you want to be able to use the
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because you want to be able to use the cloud the best way possible correct
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cloud the best way possible correct
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cloud the best way possible correct right exactly yeah I think that sort of
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right exactly yeah I think that sort of
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right exactly yeah I think that sort of the sort of with flexibility also comes
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the sort of with flexibility also comes
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the sort of with flexibility also comes complexity right um so now we're in
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complexity right um so now we're in
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complexity right um so now we're in these Cloud environments we have so many
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these Cloud environments we have so many
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these Cloud environments we have so many services to choose from but then we have
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services to choose from but then we have
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services to choose from but then we have to choose and that becomes complex I
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to choose and that becomes complex I
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to choose and that becomes complex I remember in the early days when I
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remember in the early days when I
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remember in the early days when I started it was like database sure SQL
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started it was like database sure SQL
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started it was like database sure SQL Server there was no Choice like that was
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Server there was no Choice like that was
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Server there was no Choice like that was it yeah you're right like even in
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it yeah you're right like even in
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it yeah you're right like even in application development like the
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application development like the
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application development like the Frameworks that we would go for they
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Frameworks that we would go for they
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Frameworks that we would go for they were like it was just like the obvious
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were like it was just like the obvious
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were like it was just like the obvious choices and now there's like such a huge
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choices and now there's like such a huge
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choices and now there's like such a huge variety I mean there was variety even
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variety I mean there was variety even
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variety I mean there was variety even back then right but in the net space
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back then right but in the net space
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back then right but in the net space things were pretty clear but now it's
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things were pretty clear but now it's
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things were pretty clear but now it's like like how do I start even if you
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like like how do I start even if you
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like like how do I start even if you just look at your infrastructure and
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just look at your infrastructure and
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just look at your infrastructure and you're looking at at Azure Cloud it's
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you're looking at at Azure Cloud it's
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you're looking at at Azure Cloud it's like Lord it can be incredibly
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like Lord it can be incredibly
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like Lord it can be incredibly overwhelming and I also don't really
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overwhelming and I also don't really
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overwhelming and I also don't really believe that as an industry we can
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believe that as an industry we can
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believe that as an industry we can expect people to know about all of these
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expect people to know about all of these
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expect people to know about all of these Individual Services because it's just
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Individual Services because it's just
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Individual Services because it's just like how do you keep up so if we have so
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like how do you keep up so if we have so
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like how do you keep up so if we have so many things to choose from and we can
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many things to choose from and we can
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many things to choose from and we can expect people to know all of it then I
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expect people to know all of it then I
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expect people to know all of it then I think one of the things that we need to
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think one of the things that we need to
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think one of the things that we need to invest in is enabling people to
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invest in is enabling people to
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invest in is enabling people to basically make those choices and to make
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basically make those choices and to make
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basically make those choices and to make better decisions makes sense and that
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better decisions makes sense and that
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better decisions makes sense and that becomes sort of a topic on its own right
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becomes sort of a topic on its own right
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becomes sort of a topic on its own right because yeah how do you then make better
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because yeah how do you then make better
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because yeah how do you then make better decisions on what services to use
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decisions on what services to use
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decisions on what services to use right because I think make good
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right because I think make good
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right because I think make good decisions yeah yeah but that's not easy
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decisions yeah yeah but that's not easy
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decisions yeah yeah but that's not easy right because I mean you're also you're
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right because I mean you're also you're
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right because I mean you're also you're also a consultant right so one of the
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also a consultant right so one of the
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also a consultant right so one of the things that people hate when you come in
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things that people hate when you come in
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things that people hate when you come in it's like well it depends but that's the
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it's like well it depends but that's the
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it's like well it depends but that's the thing it does depend and any consultant
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thing it does depend and any consultant
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thing it does depend and any consultant that would come in and you're asking
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that would come in and you're asking
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that would come in and you're asking them oh which database should I use and
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them oh which database should I use and
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them oh which database should I use and they just give you a Flatout answer
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they just give you a Flatout answer
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they just give you a Flatout answer probably not a good idea because they
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probably not a good idea because they
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probably not a good idea because they haven't taken the time to ask you you
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haven't taken the time to ask you you
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haven't taken the time to ask you you know what does your business domain look
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know what does your business domain look
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know what does your business domain look like and what do your requirements look
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like and what do your requirements look
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like and what do your requirements look like and what is the type of data that
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like and what is the type of data that
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like and what is the type of data that you need to store and do you find some
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you need to store and do you find some
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you need to store and do you find some differences across maybe like parts of
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differences across maybe like parts of
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differences across maybe like parts of the organization or parts of those
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the organization or parts of those
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the organization or parts of those business requirements and that's what we
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business requirements and that's what we
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business requirements and that's what we really need to do right is to come in
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really need to do right is to come in
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really need to do right is to come in try to understand those things and then
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try to understand those things and then
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try to understand those things and then based on that information say okay this
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based on that information say okay this
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based on that information say okay this would be well suited or that would be
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would be well suited or that would be
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would be well suited or that would be well suited yeah that's a really good
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well suited yeah that's a really good
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well suited yeah that's a really good observation because if somebody has a
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observation because if somebody has a
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observation because if somebody has a strong opinion without knowing enough
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strong opinion without knowing enough
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strong opinion without knowing enough about you yet then they may be playing a
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about you yet then they may be playing a
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about you yet then they may be playing a favorite right I know I know kubernetes
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favorite right I know I know kubernetes
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favorite right I know I know kubernetes therefore every application she always
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therefore every application she always
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therefore every application she always run in kubernetes right because I have I
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run in kubernetes right because I have I
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run in kubernetes right because I have I have a hammer now everything is a nail
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have a hammer now everything is a nail
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have a hammer now everything is a nail absolutely necessarily true is it
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absolutely necessarily true is it
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absolutely necessarily true is it yes it don't have to be right I think
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yes it don't have to be right I think
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yes it don't have to be right I think this becomes especially tricky when you
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this becomes especially tricky when you
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this becomes especially tricky when you do bring in Consultants right that are
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do bring in Consultants right that are
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do bring in Consultants right that are Specialists but they have some favori
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Specialists but they have some favori
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Specialists but they have some favori deism some I mean we all do right
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deism some I mean we all do right
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deism some I mean we all do right there's also certain services that I
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there's also certain services that I
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there's also certain services that I have a preference for absolutely but I
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have a preference for absolutely but I
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have a preference for absolutely but I still always try to keep an open mind
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still always try to keep an open mind
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still always try to keep an open mind and try to understand like what it is
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and try to understand like what it is
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and try to understand like what it is that you need as you know now I'm like
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that you need as you know now I'm like
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that you need as you know now I'm like very active in the messaging space but
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very active in the messaging space but
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very active in the messaging space but there's plenty of conversations that I
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there's plenty of conversations that I
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there's plenty of conversations that I have with people where I'm
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have with people where I'm
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have with people where I'm like well given what you're building you
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like well given what you're building you
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like well given what you're building you don't really need it like that's not a
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don't really need it like that's not a
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don't really need it like that's not a good fit or you would need something
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good fit or you would need something
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good fit or you would need something else right why would you use the Asher
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else right why would you use the Asher
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else right why would you use the Asher service bus if you're only sending a few
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service bus if you're only sending a few
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service bus if you're only sending a few messages and it's it's really easy peasy
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messages and it's it's really easy peasy
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messages and it's it's really easy peasy stuff you could use an Asher storage
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stuff you could use an Asher storage
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stuff you could use an Asher storage queue for Christ's sake it depends on
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queue for Christ's sake it depends on
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queue for Christ's sake it depends on what you're doing it's gonna save you a
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what you're doing it's gonna save you a
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what you're doing it's gonna save you a ton of money as well in the process yeah
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ton of money as well in the process yeah
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ton of money as well in the process yeah exactly exactly that makes sense yeah so
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exactly exactly that makes sense yeah so
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exactly exactly that makes sense yeah so this is the space that you're working in
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this is the space that you're working in
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this is the space that you're working in and continuously trying to help uh well
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and continuously trying to help uh well
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and continuously trying to help uh well trying I guess you are helping hope
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trying I guess you are helping hope
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trying I guess you are helping hope hopefully helping your customers with
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hopefully helping your customers with
6:46
hopefully helping your customers with this what are some really you know I I
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this what are some really you know I I
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this what are some really you know I I wouldn't say bad things but what are
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wouldn't say bad things but what are
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wouldn't say bad things but what are some common issues that they run into
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some common issues that they run into
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some common issues that they run into when trying to make decisions to uh use
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when trying to make decisions to uh use
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when trying to make decisions to uh use cloud
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cloud
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cloud services well I think um specifically um
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services well I think um specifically um
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services well I think um specifically um one of the things that is happening
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one of the things that is happening
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one of the things that is happening currently um a lot in the in the
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currently um a lot in the in the
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currently um a lot in the in the messaging space is trying to understand
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messaging space is trying to understand
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messaging space is trying to understand the differences between when should I
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the differences between when should I
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the differences between when should I use cues or when should I uh use streams
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use cues or when should I uh use streams
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use cues or when should I uh use streams and things like that right so it becomes
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and things like that right so it becomes
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and things like that right so it becomes a lot about okay what type of what type
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a lot about okay what type of what type
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a lot about okay what type of what type of again business are you working in you
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of again business are you working in you
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of again business are you working in you you have like a stream of information
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you have like a stream of information
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you have like a stream of information coming in where each individual piece of
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coming in where each individual piece of
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coming in where each individual piece of information itself is not like really
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information itself is not like really
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information itself is not like really meaningful
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meaningful
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meaningful well then definitely you should be
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well then definitely you should be
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well then definitely you should be looking into streaming services but if
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looking into streaming services but if
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looking into streaming services but if every event that you're going to publish
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every event that you're going to publish
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every event that you're going to publish as part of you know as part of your
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as part of you know as part of your
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as part of you know as part of your system or application is going to be a
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system or application is going to be a
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system or application is going to be a business meaningful event well then
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business meaningful event well then
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business meaningful event well then maybe messaging is a lot more your space
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maybe messaging is a lot more your space
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maybe messaging is a lot more your space but this is also what you see right
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but this is also what you see right
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but this is also what you see right there a or it becomes clear to me the
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there a or it becomes clear to me the
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there a or it becomes clear to me the longer that I am in the industry is that
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longer that I am in the industry is that
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longer that I am in the industry is that this is what tends to happen is that we
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this is what tends to happen is that we
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this is what tends to happen is that we have sort of new architectural Styles
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have sort of new architectural Styles
7:55
have sort of new architectural Styles coming out new things being invented and
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coming out new things being invented and
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coming out new things being invented and then sort of we tend to sort of jump on
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then sort of we tend to sort of jump on
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then sort of we tend to sort of jump on that bandwagon and say okay this is the
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that bandwagon and say okay this is the
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that bandwagon and say okay this is the new thing it's going to help us solve
8:02
new thing it's going to help us solve
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new thing it's going to help us solve all of those previous problems we've
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all of those previous problems we've
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all of those previous problems we've seen this also with the monoliths to
8:07
seen this also with the monoliths to
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seen this also with the monoliths to microsurfaces to modular monolith
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microsurfaces to modular monolith
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microsurfaces to modular monolith movements now everybody has to have ai
8:12
movements now everybody has to have ai
8:12
movements now everybody has to have ai services in their application or else
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services in their application or else
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services in their application or else right it's it's just it's just a a
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right it's it's just it's just a a
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right it's it's just it's just a a mandatory thing now and and then
8:19
mandatory thing now and and then
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mandatory thing now and and then Microsoft recently talked about or or
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Microsoft recently talked about or or
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Microsoft recently talked about or or announced something that they're putting
8:23
announced something that they're putting
8:23
announced something that they're putting a lot of effort behind which is fabric
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a lot of effort behind which is fabric
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a lot of effort behind which is fabric right that's a huge storage service if
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right that's a huge storage service if
8:29
right that's a huge storage service if you will when is that right and for what
8:32
you will when is that right and for what
8:32
you will when is that right and for what for what reason and what would you use
8:33
for what reason and what would you use
8:33
for what reason and what would you use it for and and so I think that's where
8:36
it for and and so I think that's where
8:36
it for and and so I think that's where it becomes we need to become I think
8:39
it becomes we need to become I think
8:39
it becomes we need to become I think better at carving out some time to look
8:43
better at carving out some time to look
8:43
better at carving out some time to look at the documentation try to understand
8:45
at the documentation try to understand
8:45
at the documentation try to understand what the goals of that of that service
8:47
what the goals of that of that service
8:47
what the goals of that of that service is and then try to align it with what is
8:50
is and then try to align it with what is
8:50
is and then try to align it with what is it exactly that we need to use but I've
8:53
it exactly that we need to use but I've
8:53
it exactly that we need to use but I've seen companies that actually engage in
8:55
seen companies that actually engage in
8:55
seen companies that actually engage in that exercise and make a well balanced
8:57
that exercise and make a well balanced
8:57
that exercise and make a well balanced decision but then still fall in into the
8:59
decision but then still fall in into the
8:59
decision but then still fall in into the Trap of okay we've chosen to we've CH
9:02
Trap of okay we've chosen to we've CH
9:02
Trap of okay we've chosen to we've CH we've chosen to use x let's now use it
9:05
we've chosen to use x let's now use it
9:05
we've chosen to use x let's now use it for everything
9:08
for everything
9:08
for everything because I'm
9:11
sorry no I guess no if you if you think
9:14
sorry no I guess no if you if you think
9:14
sorry no I guess no if you if you think about it I can really see that there are
9:16
about it I can really see that there are
9:16
about it I can really see that there are some valid reasons why organizations
9:19
some valid reasons why organizations
9:19
some valid reasons why organizations makes these choices because then it
9:21
makes these choices because then it
9:21
makes these choices because then it becomes easier to hire like these are
9:23
becomes easier to hire like these are
9:23
becomes easier to hire like these are the types of skills that you are looking
9:24
the types of skills that you are looking
9:24
the types of skills that you are looking for and you you then usually opt for
9:28
for and you you then usually opt for
9:28
for and you you then usually opt for maybe services that more widely known
9:30
maybe services that more widely known
9:30
maybe services that more widely known and understood and that you can easily
9:32
and understood and that you can easily
9:32
and understood and that you can easily more easily find resources for because
9:35
more easily find resources for because
9:35
more easily find resources for because honestly that's again one of the flip
9:37
honestly that's again one of the flip
9:37
honestly that's again one of the flip sides of having so much flexibility if
9:39
sides of having so much flexibility if
9:39
sides of having so much flexibility if you have a very wide system where that
9:42
you have a very wide system where that
9:42
you have a very wide system where that is using many different types of of
9:44
is using many different types of of
9:44
is using many different types of of services in the cloud and you then need
9:46
services in the cloud and you then need
9:46
services in the cloud and you then need to onboard someone well that's quite an
9:49
to onboard someone well that's quite an
9:49
to onboard someone well that's quite an onboarding right although in essence you
9:53
onboarding right although in essence you
9:53
onboarding right although in essence you would assume that within at least a team
9:55
would assume that within at least a team
9:55
would assume that within at least a team or a servers boundary or how depending
9:57
or a servers boundary or how depending
9:57
or a servers boundary or how depending on how you've split things up
10:00
on how you've split things up
10:00
on how you've split things up that should still be like a manageable
10:02
that should still be like a manageable
10:02
that should still be like a manageable amount of things and I think with the
10:05
amount of things and I think with the
10:05
amount of things and I think with the appropriate onboarding and training we
10:07
appropriate onboarding and training we
10:07
appropriate onboarding and training we can enable anyone to learn every
10:10
can enable anyone to learn every
10:10
can enable anyone to learn every anything right because not everything
10:11
anything right because not everything
10:11
anything right because not everything but anything that's true but that's
10:14
but anything that's true but that's
10:14
but anything that's true but that's that's a challenge as as a leader how
10:16
that's a challenge as as a leader how
10:16
that's a challenge as as a leader how much do you then um because every
10:20
much do you then um because every
10:20
much do you then um because every everything is time and money right I
10:21
everything is time and money right I
10:21
everything is time and money right I mean you have you have applications to
10:24
mean you have you have applications to
10:24
mean you have you have applications to to to ship and features to push and and
10:26
to to ship and features to push and and
10:26
to to ship and features to push and and all the things that make business and
10:28
all the things that make business and
10:28
all the things that make business and make money um how do you balance making
10:31
make money um how do you balance making
10:31
make money um how do you balance making time to uh allow the the the developers
10:36
time to uh allow the the the developers
10:36
time to uh allow the the the developers and it people to to to appreciate all of
10:38
and it people to to to appreciate all of
10:38
and it people to to to appreciate all of these services and learn about them
10:40
these services and learn about them
10:40
these services and learn about them enough how do you balance that thing
10:41
enough how do you balance that thing
10:41
enough how do you balance that thing it's hard right right so one of the
10:44
it's hard right right so one of the
10:44
it's hard right right so one of the things that we tend to do and I've
10:46
things that we tend to do and I've
10:46
things that we tend to do and I've actually already done this at many
10:48
actually already done this at many
10:48
actually already done this at many different employers is to always sort of
10:51
different employers is to always sort of
10:51
different employers is to always sort of carve out sometime in the week just a
10:54
carve out sometime in the week just a
10:54
carve out sometime in the week just a little bit of slack time that allows you
10:55
little bit of slack time that allows you
10:56
little bit of slack time that allows you to dive a little bit deeper into things
10:58
to dive a little bit deeper into things
10:58
to dive a little bit deeper into things and this is like still on a level of
11:01
and this is like still on a level of
11:01
and this is like still on a level of just keeping my sort of general
11:03
just keeping my sort of general
11:03
just keeping my sort of general knowledge up to date just allowing
11:04
knowledge up to date just allowing
11:04
knowledge up to date just allowing people a little bit of their time to go
11:07
people a little bit of their time to go
11:07
people a little bit of their time to go into just learning and keeping up to
11:09
into just learning and keeping up to
11:09
into just learning and keeping up to date and with the changes so that they
11:11
date and with the changes so that they
11:11
date and with the changes so that they also become aware of what services are
11:14
also become aware of what services are
11:14
also become aware of what services are out there right that's part part one is
11:16
out there right that's part part one is
11:16
out there right that's part part one is just that
11:17
just that
11:17
just that awareness and then when it comes to
11:19
awareness and then when it comes to
11:19
awareness and then when it comes to making decisions I think um well one of
11:23
making decisions I think um well one of
11:23
making decisions I think um well one of the things that I've been doing over the
11:24
the things that I've been doing over the
11:24
the things that I've been doing over the last almost five years is to practice a
11:26
last almost five years is to practice a
11:26
last almost five years is to practice a very sort of structured appro approach
11:29
very sort of structured appro approach
11:29
very sort of structured appro approach to decision making where I make it
11:32
to decision making where I make it
11:32
to decision making where I make it really clear first of all what what is a
11:34
really clear first of all what what is a
11:34
really clear first of all what what is a problem that I'm solving because I feel
11:35
problem that I'm solving because I feel
11:35
problem that I'm solving because I feel that that's something that we don't
11:37
that that's something that we don't
11:37
that that's something that we don't usually think about or at least not
11:39
usually think about or at least not
11:39
usually think about or at least not enough that's why you see so many
11:41
enough that's why you see so many
11:41
enough that's why you see so many backlogs there also be like a disconnect
11:44
backlogs there also be like a disconnect
11:44
backlogs there also be like a disconnect sorry to to interrupt like it disconnect
11:46
sorry to to interrupt like it disconnect
11:46
sorry to to interrupt like it disconnect between the the actual business problem
11:49
between the the actual business problem
11:49
between the the actual business problem what they need and then the technology
11:51
what they need and then the technology
11:51
what they need and then the technology that you try to use to to to implement
11:53
that you try to use to to to implement
11:54
that you try to use to to to implement that you you like these two sides don't
11:55
that you you like these two sides don't
11:55
that you you like these two sides don't necessarily always know each other well
11:57
necessarily always know each other well
11:57
necessarily always know each other well enough right exactly and that's exactly
11:59
enough right exactly and that's exactly
11:59
enough right exactly and that's exactly the problem that I'm trying to address
12:01
the problem that I'm trying to address
12:01
the problem that I'm trying to address because once you start to always think
12:04
because once you start to always think
12:04
because once you start to always think in terms of the problem that you're
12:05
in terms of the problem that you're
12:05
in terms of the problem that you're trying to solve y well coming up with a
12:08
trying to solve y well coming up with a
12:08
trying to solve y well coming up with a kubernetes something if it's just like
12:11
kubernetes something if it's just like
12:11
kubernetes something if it's just like you know a small Tin part that is right
12:14
you know a small Tin part that is right
12:14
you know a small Tin part that is right then it's gonna be like okay that that's
12:16
then it's gonna be like okay that that's
12:16
then it's gonna be like okay that that's going to be a hard cell and sometimes
12:18
going to be a hard cell and sometimes
12:18
going to be a hard cell and sometimes that's exactly what we need that's when
12:20
that's exactly what we need that's when
12:20
that's exactly what we need that's when I always say like that's like taking a
12:22
I always say like that's like taking a
12:22
I always say like that's like taking a good look in the mirror like what am I
12:24
good look in the mirror like what am I
12:24
good look in the mirror like what am I even proposing here right and that's a
12:27
even proposing here right and that's a
12:27
even proposing here right and that's a good way to also surface your biases
12:29
good way to also surface your biases
12:29
good way to also surface your biases preferences the things that you don't
12:30
preferences the things that you don't
12:30
preferences the things that you don't like and to actually say no wait a
12:33
like and to actually say no wait a
12:33
like and to actually say no wait a second even though I didn't like it when
12:35
second even though I didn't like it when
12:35
second even though I didn't like it when I was using this in whatever you know
12:39
I was using this in whatever you know
12:39
I was using this in whatever you know whatever application or whatever
12:40
whatever application or whatever
12:41
whatever application or whatever previous customer whatever it is is it
12:43
previous customer whatever it is is it
12:43
previous customer whatever it is is it maybe a good fit today because it
12:45
maybe a good fit today because it
12:45
maybe a good fit today because it might and and those those those those
12:48
might and and those those those those
12:48
might and and those those those those services that I was using on the last
12:50
services that I was using on the last
12:50
services that I was using on the last project that that made it super
12:52
project that that made it super
12:52
project that that made it super successful well maybe they're a terrible
12:54
successful well maybe they're a terrible
12:54
successful well maybe they're a terrible fit for what you're doing today um yes
12:57
fit for what you're doing today um yes
12:57
fit for what you're doing today um yes and and that's the bias that you're
12:58
and and that's the bias that you're
12:58
and and that's the bias that you're talking about that people exact you get
13:01
talking about that people exact you get
13:01
talking about that people exact you get to know a kind of service or or a subset
13:04
to know a kind of service or or a subset
13:04
to know a kind of service or or a subset of services I know these things now so I
13:06
of services I know these things now so I
13:06
of services I know these things now so I will I will now make architectures that
13:08
will I will now make architectures that
13:08
will I will now make architectures that fit the the services that I know and
13:11
fit the the services that I know and
13:11
fit the the services that I know and that couldn't always necessarily be
13:13
that couldn't always necessarily be
13:13
that couldn't always necessarily be appropriate right yes I I have seen this
13:16
appropriate right yes I I have seen this
13:16
appropriate right yes I I have seen this actually many many times I remember
13:18
actually many many times I remember
13:18
actually many many times I remember stepping into a project um where it was
13:21
stepping into a project um where it was
13:21
stepping into a project um where it was it was a very very sort of complex
13:24
it was a very very sort of complex
13:24
it was a very very sort of complex landscape because there was a lot of
13:25
landscape because there was a lot of
13:25
landscape because there was a lot of Legacy but you also had a team like the
13:29
Legacy but you also had a team like the
13:29
Legacy but you also had a team like the team that would that had been there for
13:30
team that would that had been there for
13:31
team that would that had been there for like most of the application's life
13:32
like most of the application's life
13:32
like most of the application's life cycle they weren't at all up to date
13:34
cycle they weren't at all up to date
13:34
cycle they weren't at all up to date with all of these new architectural
13:36
with all of these new architectural
13:36
with all of these new architectural styles with all of these new cloud
13:38
styles with all of these new cloud
13:38
styles with all of these new cloud services and then it becomes like and
13:41
services and then it becomes like and
13:41
services and then it becomes like and then you had a new team which which I
13:43
then you had a new team which which I
13:43
then you had a new team which which I was at the time part of walking in and
13:45
was at the time part of walking in and
13:45
was at the time part of walking in and saying okay so now let's use all of
13:48
saying okay so now let's use all of
13:48
saying okay so now let's use all of these services but then the other people
13:50
these services but then the other people
13:50
these services but then the other people were like wait what and you man you
13:53
were like wait what and you man you
13:53
were like wait what and you man you expect us to manage this and to support
13:55
expect us to manage this and to support
13:55
expect us to manage this and to support this and we don't know how this works
13:56
this and we don't know how this works
13:56
this and we don't know how this works and then it becomes so a lot of the
13:59
and then it becomes so a lot of the
13:59
and then it becomes so a lot of the stories sometimes also it goes beyond
14:02
stories sometimes also it goes beyond
14:02
stories sometimes also it goes beyond the technology alone right so because
14:04
the technology alone right so because
14:04
the technology alone right so because you could argue in some cases that you
14:07
you could argue in some cases that you
14:07
you could argue in some cases that you might have let's say Azure storage cues
14:11
might have let's say Azure storage cues
14:11
might have let's say Azure storage cues um is your best fit let's say that for
14:14
um is your best fit let's say that for
14:14
um is your best fit let's say that for the sake of the example right but you
14:17
the sake of the example right but you
14:17
the sake of the example right but you have in your team a lot of knowledge
14:19
have in your team a lot of knowledge
14:19
have in your team a lot of knowledge about other service and then it becomes
14:21
about other service and then it becomes
14:21
about other service and then it becomes like ah well so it's always this
14:24
like ah well so it's always this
14:24
like ah well so it's always this balancing exercise that we need to do of
14:27
balancing exercise that we need to do of
14:27
balancing exercise that we need to do of the people that are going to end up
14:28
the people that are going to end up
14:28
the people that are going to end up suppor it and that they're they're going
14:30
suppor it and that they're they're going
14:30
suppor it and that they're they're going to end up you know working on this in
14:32
to end up you know working on this in
14:32
to end up you know working on this in the long term yeah do they have the
14:34
the long term yeah do they have the
14:34
the long term yeah do they have the skills in house actually to be able to
14:38
skills in house actually to be able to
14:38
skills in house actually to be able to learn and and keep that um so you you're
14:41
learn and and keep that um so you you're
14:41
learn and and keep that um so you you're you're I I I couldn't agree more and
14:43
you're I I I couldn't agree more and
14:43
you're I I I couldn't agree more and what you're saying here that touches
14:45
what you're saying here that touches
14:45
what you're saying here that touches upon what an important thing like the
14:47
upon what an important thing like the
14:47
upon what an important thing like the people who will maintain it in the long
14:49
people who will maintain it in the long
14:49
people who will maintain it in the long run do they know that that what they are
14:51
run do they know that that what they are
14:51
run do they know that that what they are what they are using do they understand
14:52
what they are using do they understand
14:52
what they are using do they understand they services but also as well the
14:55
they services but also as well the
14:55
they services but also as well the operations side of the house that are
14:57
operations side of the house that are
14:57
operations side of the house that are going to actually then operate and take
14:59
going to actually then operate and take
14:59
going to actually then operate and take care of this so I saw this architecture
15:01
care of this so I saw this architecture
15:01
care of this so I saw this architecture once by a team that were like they it
15:03
once by a team that were like they it
15:03
once by a team that were like they it felt to me when I looked at their
15:05
felt to me when I looked at their
15:05
felt to me when I looked at their architecture that they had gone
15:06
architecture that they had gone
15:06
architecture that they had gone completely out of their way to ensure to
15:09
completely out of their way to ensure to
15:09
completely out of their way to ensure to pick any kind of service that wasn't
15:11
pick any kind of service that wasn't
15:11
pick any kind of service that wasn't standard Cloud platform service like it
15:14
standard Cloud platform service like it
15:14
standard Cloud platform service like it wasn't a standard like Microsoft Asher
15:16
wasn't a standard like Microsoft Asher
15:16
wasn't a standard like Microsoft Asher service it was just anything else
15:18
service it was just anything else
15:18
service it was just anything else everything that isn't that and then they
15:20
everything that isn't that and then they
15:20
everything that isn't that and then they they they probably could operate it I
15:22
they they probably could operate it I
15:22
they they probably could operate it I mean they they knew the tech they knew
15:24
mean they they knew the tech they knew
15:24
mean they they knew the tech they knew that subset of of of services and then
15:27
that subset of of of services and then
15:27
that subset of of of services and then they like have this architecture we were
15:29
they like have this architecture we were
15:29
they like have this architecture we were building this application really proud
15:30
building this application really proud
15:30
building this application really proud of their their architecture and then
15:33
of their their architecture and then
15:33
of their their architecture and then operations took one look at that and
15:34
operations took one look at that and
15:34
operations took one look at that and they went like I don't know almost any
15:37
they went like I don't know almost any
15:37
they went like I don't know almost any of these Services I I have no idea what
15:39
of these Services I I have no idea what
15:39
of these Services I I have no idea what this is so this is also also a
15:41
this is so this is also also a
15:41
this is so this is also also a consideration to have of course you have
15:43
consideration to have of course you have
15:43
consideration to have of course you have to be able to have a 247 operations team
15:46
to be able to have a 247 operations team
15:46
to be able to have a 247 operations team that takes care of things and they have
15:48
that takes care of things and they have
15:48
that takes care of things and they have to know how it works right yes that's
15:51
to know how it works right yes that's
15:51
to know how it works right yes that's why I always say it's like in our field
15:54
why I always say it's like in our field
15:54
why I always say it's like in our field of work it is not just about the
15:56
of work it is not just about the
15:56
of work it is not just about the technology and our work involves so many
15:59
technology and our work involves so many
15:59
technology and our work involves so many different angles it's about
16:01
different angles it's about
16:01
different angles it's about understanding our business requirement
16:03
understanding our business requirement
16:03
understanding our business requirement which is a massive Challenge on its own
16:06
which is a massive Challenge on its own
16:06
which is a massive Challenge on its own right understanding completely new
16:08
right understanding completely new
16:08
right understanding completely new business domain having access to the
16:10
business domain having access to the
16:10
business domain having access to the people that will even explain to you
16:11
people that will even explain to you
16:11
people that will even explain to you what the domain is supposed to do and
16:13
what the domain is supposed to do and
16:13
what the domain is supposed to do and all of those things right but then on
16:15
all of those things right but then on
16:16
all of those things right but then on the other side is also realizing like
16:18
the other side is also realizing like
16:18
the other side is also realizing like okay especially if you're a consultant
16:20
okay especially if you're a consultant
16:20
okay especially if you're a consultant and you're coming in for a limited
16:22
and you're coming in for a limited
16:22
and you're coming in for a limited amount of time like okay who am I
16:25
amount of time like okay who am I
16:25
amount of time like okay who am I working with here what are their skills
16:27
working with here what are their skills
16:27
working with here what are their skills today and how can we level up their
16:30
today and how can we level up their
16:30
today and how can we level up their skills so that they're able to to
16:33
skills so that they're able to to
16:33
skills so that they're able to to basically support that you have to meet
16:35
basically support that you have to meet
16:35
basically support that you have to meet people somewhere in the middle you can't
16:37
people somewhere in the middle you can't
16:37
people somewhere in the middle you can't just expect them to rise to maybe what
16:40
just expect them to rise to maybe what
16:40
just expect them to rise to maybe what your level is which might be Advanced
16:42
your level is which might be Advanced
16:42
your level is which might be Advanced based on your experience and expect them
16:44
based on your experience and expect them
16:44
based on your experience and expect them to be able to then just okay catch up
16:47
to be able to then just okay catch up
16:47
to be able to then just okay catch up yeah yeah especially if you're bringing
16:50
yeah yeah especially if you're bringing
16:50
yeah yeah especially if you're bringing uh themes and applications from a I mean
16:53
uh themes and applications from a I mean
16:53
uh themes and applications from a I mean you're a cloud consultant maybe right
16:55
you're a cloud consultant maybe right
16:55
you're a cloud consultant maybe right and and you're bringing them from a pre-
16:57
and and you're bringing them from a pre-
16:57
and and you're bringing them from a pre- cloud era into the cloud there's going
17:00
cloud era into the cloud there's going
17:00
cloud era into the cloud there's going to be a lot of catching up to do uh for
17:02
to be a lot of catching up to do uh for
17:02
to be a lot of catching up to do uh for them this is going to be challenging and
17:04
them this is going to be challenging and
17:04
them this is going to be challenging and it's not just catching up it's like a
17:06
it's not just catching up it's like a
17:06
it's not just catching up it's like a complete mind shift I always say yeah it
17:09
complete mind shift I always say yeah it
17:09
complete mind shift I always say yeah it really is it can be I agree learning how
17:12
really is it can be I agree learning how
17:12
really is it can be I agree learning how to understand what a distributed
17:13
to understand what a distributed
17:13
to understand what a distributed application is and and how to use these
17:16
application is and and how to use these
17:16
application is and and how to use these weird services like uh you know um when
17:19
weird services like uh you know um when
17:19
weird services like uh you know um when when the cloud started it was like five
17:21
when the cloud started it was like five
17:21
when the cloud started it was like five services in the in the Azure platform
17:23
services in the in the Azure platform
17:23
services in the in the Azure platform when it when it launched now it's like
17:25
when it when it launched now it's like
17:25
when it when it launched now it's like nobody knows how many it's I wouldn't be
17:27
nobody knows how many it's I wouldn't be
17:27
nobody knows how many it's I wouldn't be able to tell you
17:29
able to tell you
17:29
able to tell you there's no there's no nobody knows this
17:31
there's no there's no nobody knows this
17:31
there's no there's no nobody knows this number I don't I don't think anyone
17:32
number I don't I don't think anyone
17:32
number I don't I don't think anyone knows this number now it's it's so many
17:34
knows this number now it's it's so many
17:34
knows this number now it's it's so many and we didn't know anything about graph
17:36
and we didn't know anything about graph
17:36
and we didn't know anything about graph databases and now all of a sudden
17:38
databases and now all of a sudden
17:38
databases and now all of a sudden there's there's this other Paradigm why
17:40
there's there's this other Paradigm why
17:40
there's there's this other Paradigm why why does a graph database you know I
17:42
why does a graph database you know I
17:42
why does a graph database you know I mean they've existed for a very long
17:44
mean they've existed for a very long
17:44
mean they've existed for a very long time but we haven't really been exposed
17:45
time but we haven't really been exposed
17:45
time but we haven't really been exposed to them before right and and and and and
17:48
to them before right and and and and and
17:48
to them before right and and and and and what I'm saying is we're seeing new
17:49
what I'm saying is we're seeing new
17:49
what I'm saying is we're seeing new teams coming onto the cloud now we work
17:52
teams coming onto the cloud now we work
17:52
teams coming onto the cloud now we work in the cloud for like a long time now we
17:54
in the cloud for like a long time now we
17:54
in the cloud for like a long time now we we've have mileage we know about you
17:57
we've have mileage we know about you
17:57
we've have mileage we know about you know hopefully many services but
17:59
know hopefully many services but
17:59
know hopefully many services but coming in new imagine coming in new to
18:01
coming in new imagine coming in new to
18:01
coming in new imagine coming in new to the cloud
18:02
the cloud
18:02
the cloud today incredibly overwhelming yeah
18:05
today incredibly overwhelming yeah
18:05
today incredibly overwhelming yeah actually it's it's interesting that you
18:07
actually it's it's interesting that you
18:07
actually it's it's interesting that you bring this up because I've had a bunch
18:09
bring this up because I've had a bunch
18:09
bring this up because I've had a bunch of conversations in the like you know
18:11
of conversations in the like you know
18:11
of conversations in the like you know last few conferences where I've been
18:13
last few conferences where I've been
18:13
last few conferences where I've been also speaking where I like I meet um
18:17
also speaking where I like I meet um
18:17
also speaking where I like I meet um people who are just like finished you
18:19
people who are just like finished you
18:19
people who are just like finished you know their studies and they just started
18:20
know their studies and they just started
18:20
know their studies and they just started at their first employer and they're like
18:24
at their first employer and they're like
18:24
at their first employer and they're like oh my
18:25
oh my
18:25
oh my God they come to a conference and
18:27
God they come to a conference and
18:27
God they come to a conference and they're like so many sessions they're
18:29
they're like so many sessions they're
18:29
they're like so many sessions they're like this is so overwhelming yes and it
18:32
like this is so overwhelming yes and it
18:32
like this is so overwhelming yes and it is I think this is something that you
18:34
is I think this is something that you
18:34
is I think this is something that you know for for people like you and me
18:36
know for for people like you and me
18:36
know for for people like you and me who've been in this industry for a while
18:37
who've been in this industry for a while
18:37
who've been in this industry for a while we need to acknowledge that what we're
18:40
we need to acknowledge that what we're
18:41
we need to acknowledge that what we're exposing them to is magnitudes of more
18:44
exposing them to is magnitudes of more
18:45
exposing them to is magnitudes of more complexity than the things that I
18:46
complexity than the things that I
18:46
complexity than the things that I believe we were exposed to at the time
18:48
believe we were exposed to at the time
18:48
believe we were exposed to at the time because it was a lot more limited so
18:50
because it was a lot more limited so
18:50
because it was a lot more limited so you're saying that that the way to
18:52
you're saying that that the way to
18:52
you're saying that that the way to approach this is to take it to make sure
18:54
approach this is to take it to make sure
18:55
approach this is to take it to make sure that you have good habits like take it
18:56
that you have good habits like take it
18:56
that you have good habits like take it step by step and and ensure that you
18:58
step by step and and ensure that you
18:58
step by step and and ensure that you have sometime every week to yes advance
19:03
have sometime every week to yes advance
19:03
have sometime every week to yes advance in this uh in this in this realm because
19:05
in this uh in this in this realm because
19:05
in this uh in this in this realm because it's huge absolutely and even more
19:08
it's huge absolutely and even more
19:08
it's huge absolutely and even more importantly is to structure decision
19:09
importantly is to structure decision
19:09
importantly is to structure decision making for everyone because even even if
19:13
making for everyone because even even if
19:13
making for everyone because even even if let's say you have a couple of juniors
19:15
let's say you have a couple of juniors
19:15
let's say you have a couple of juniors in the team even if they don't end up
19:17
in the team even if they don't end up
19:17
in the team even if they don't end up making the decisions which I actually
19:19
making the decisions which I actually
19:19
making the decisions which I actually believe that they should also be
19:20
believe that they should also be
19:20
believe that they should also be involved so they can learn but let's say
19:23
involved so they can learn but let's say
19:23
involved so they can learn but let's say that even if they don't make a make the
19:25
that even if they don't make a make the
19:25
that even if they don't make a make the decision if you can as a team lead as an
19:29
decision if you can as a team lead as an
19:29
decision if you can as a team lead as an architect whatever role you are in the
19:31
architect whatever role you are in the
19:31
architect whatever role you are in the senior developer whatever it is you can
19:33
senior developer whatever it is you can
19:33
senior developer whatever it is you can write down your thought process and say
19:36
write down your thought process and say
19:36
write down your thought process and say okay this is the problem I was trying to
19:38
okay this is the problem I was trying to
19:38
okay this is the problem I was trying to solve right this is the context in which
19:40
solve right this is the context in which
19:41
solve right this is the context in which I find myself these are all of the
19:43
I find myself these are all of the
19:43
I find myself these are all of the options that I considered and this is
19:46
options that I considered and this is
19:46
options that I considered and this is why I chose this specific
19:48
why I chose this specific
19:48
why I chose this specific outcome and you write that down
19:50
outcome and you write that down
19:50
outcome and you write that down somewhere and have it available for all
19:52
somewhere and have it available for all
19:52
somewhere and have it available for all of those people to then learn to to even
19:54
of those people to then learn to to even
19:54
of those people to then learn to to even if they join I don't know six months
19:58
if they join I don't know six months
19:58
if they join I don't know six months from now they can go back to to this
20:01
from now they can go back to to this
20:01
from now they can go back to to this sort of like log of decision records we
20:03
sort of like log of decision records we
20:03
sort of like log of decision records we could use architecture decision records
20:05
could use architecture decision records
20:05
could use architecture decision records for that matter right and then look at
20:07
for that matter right and then look at
20:07
for that matter right and then look at them and and start to look at all of
20:09
them and and start to look at all of
20:09
them and and start to look at all of those they can at least have something
20:12
those they can at least have something
20:12
those they can at least have something to to sort of you know hold on to and
20:15
to to sort of you know hold on to and
20:15
to to sort of you know hold on to and say okay so it looks like all of these
20:17
say okay so it looks like all of these
20:17
say okay so it looks like all of these things are related because these are all
20:19
things are related because these are all
20:19
things are related because these are all the things that were considered and okay
20:21
the things that were considered and okay
20:22
the things that were considered and okay this was chosen because of these and
20:23
this was chosen because of these and
20:23
this was chosen because of these and these and these reasons and they can
20:25
these and these reasons and they can
20:25
these and these reasons and they can take that learn from it yep and that was
20:29
take that learn from it yep and that was
20:29
take that learn from it yep and that was not chosen because other reasons right
20:33
not chosen because other reasons right
20:33
not chosen because other reasons right because the case somebody comes in and
20:35
because the case somebody comes in and
20:35
because the case somebody comes in and takes a look at the architecture and hey
20:36
takes a look at the architecture and hey
20:36
takes a look at the architecture and hey why didn't you use a graph database
20:38
why didn't you use a graph database
20:38
why didn't you use a graph database there maybe there was a really good
20:39
there maybe there was a really good
20:39
there maybe there was a really good reason uh exactly but nobody cared to
20:42
reason uh exactly but nobody cared to
20:42
reason uh exactly but nobody cared to write it down right yeah right right and
20:44
write it down right yeah right right and
20:44
write it down right yeah right right and then you go and second guess the
20:46
then you go and second guess the
20:46
then you go and second guess the architecture much later interesting well
20:48
architecture much later interesting well
20:48
architecture much later interesting well that was that was uh that was such a
20:50
that was that was uh that was such a
20:50
that was that was uh that was such a great summary I think we're that's
20:52
great summary I think we're that's
20:52
great summary I think we're that's that's it we can't say anything better
20:54
that's it we can't say anything better
20:54
that's it we can't say anything better than this we we are at time this is it
20:56
than this we we are at time this is it
20:56
than this we we are at time this is it thank you thank you so much Leila for
20:58
thank you thank you so much Leila for
20:58
thank you thank you so much Leila for coming on the cloud show today this was
21:00
coming on the cloud show today this was
21:00
coming on the cloud show today this was uh this was exent for having me yeah
21:02
uh this was exent for having me yeah
21:02
uh this was exent for having me yeah it's our our pleasure definitely thank
21:05
it's our our pleasure definitely thank
21:05
it's our our pleasure definitely thank you um and audience uh see you again
21:07
you um and audience uh see you again
21:07
you um and audience uh see you again next time for the cloud show bye
21:12
next time for the cloud show bye
21:12
next time for the cloud show bye [Music]
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