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CoinWeek IQ: COIN RESTORATION vs. Coin Doctoring with David Camire
Jul 26, 2019
In this interview, Charles Morgan talks to coin expert David Camire of Numismatic Conservation Services about the differences between coin restoration and coin doctoring - and how each problem coin must be examined before his company will elect to restore it.
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[Music]
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[Music]
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all right Dave what what does numismatic
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conservation service do for collectors
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what we do for collectors is were able
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to take any residue any film any little
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problems that are on a coin off of it in
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a way that it doesn't hurt the coin at
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all so Dave are there limitations to the
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types of things that a conservation
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service can do to restore a coin to its
0:48
original glory yes there is and first we
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can start off by saying that before coin
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has even worked on or conserved at all
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it's looked at two or three people who
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actually very familiar with the coins
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the metal the type all the
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idiosyncrasies of the coin and we look
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at it in to see not only what can be
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taken off but also to preserve as much
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of the original surface as possible with
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that said we can't remove scratches or
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fix holes or anything that's been
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physically damage to the coin but as far
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as what's on the coin if there's any
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residue whatsoever or maybe some spots a
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lot of time we can either minimize that
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or reduce that if the coin is
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beautifully toned and maybe have some
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PVC we can take off the PVC very
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carefully and so leave that nice
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original patina so today most
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experienced coin dealers have at least a
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certain degree of knowledge about the
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how to treat coins with chemicals in
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order to to keep them fresh or to
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restore them I'm sure that NCS takes
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that expertise to like a whole nother
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level but what is the difference between
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coin doctoring which is a problem that
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plagues the rare coin industry and coin
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conservation right so I think with this
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the big difference is with coin
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conservation we're trying to make the
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coin look as original as possible by
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moving any residual film
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or anything to do with the coin but
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really keep the original surface of the
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coin whereas coin doctoring more is to
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fill it in its moly it's deceptive it's
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it's just trying to get to the next
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grade we're all though in conservation
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we're trying to get the highest grade
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possible for the customer at the coin
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we're also trying to preserve the
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original surface of the coin as much as
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possible so we don't do any filling in
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we don't do anything to make the coin
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appear such that it isn't can can you
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explain to me the NGC has a relationship
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with the Smithsonian Institution's
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National numismatic collection what
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services has NGC offered the Smithsonian
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to help preserve its coins which weren't
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always taken care of in the best
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possible way right and certainly you
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bring up an interesting point over the
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years conservational coin cleaning has
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changed in various amounts you know from
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putting arsenic on coins you know and to
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cleaning coins physically it's just it
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was a lack of education lack of
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understanding how coins are made all the
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way down to how coins are clean and
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stored so basically we had the unique
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opportunity to work with the Smithsonian
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who has of course the best coins in the
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world well over a million articles of
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numismatic and some of the rarest US
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coins and a lot of those coins in the
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past the way they would display is they
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had wax in the background that was stuck
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to a board which is was common back then
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but today is not done because obviously
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where the waxes it will prevent any
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toning on the coin but where the wax
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wasn't it could tone making for an
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undesirable look to the coin but most of
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all you had the sticky residue on the
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coin that if you were research it was
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really hard to do so what people tended
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to do is take their fingernail or
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something and try to remove it to see
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which could stretch scratch or damage
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the coin so we work with the Smithsonian
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we work with their conservation
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department on neutralizing all the coins
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removing the residue of the coin taking
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off the wax but again leaving all the
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original surfaces as much as possible
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and along with that we work with NGC and
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holder in the coins and an inert holder
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and know that preserve them for future
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generations what had been a few of your
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high
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lights as a professional I guess a
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professional in the coin industry and
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working for NGC yeah first of all is a
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all the us amazing US coins I've seen
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not only all the classic rarities like
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the 1804 dollar 13 nickel but the 4920
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that's in the Smithsonian the 65 s 20
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this is in the Smithsonian many unique
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coins many neat coins worldwide we deal
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a lot now with coins from around the
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world and there's been some phenomenal
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coins have come through conservation
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that have been improperly stored in the
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past or all residue to come off that
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turned out amazing and it's almost like
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they were given new birth so NGC has
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also been involved of the preservation
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and certification of shipwreck treasure
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recovered shipwreck treasure like the SS
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Republic and other other finds what what
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does that experience like
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well that was unique because we had a
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console with outside professionals or to
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assist us because these coins were
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underwater for such a long time and had
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developed a whole different scenario
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than when you used to when the coins are
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just stored improperly meaning there was
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an crustacean they're involved with iron
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residue and things like that and what
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was amazing is most of these coins we
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didn't know the date we didn't know the
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denomination until we conserve them so
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everyone I was like opening up a little
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treasure box and of course with the SS
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Republic there was quite a few extreme
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rarities it showed up and there was
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other shipwrecks we did where literally
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it was all in concretion would took them
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apart
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it was coins from all over the world so
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it also goes back and it tells a little
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piece of history of what was used during
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that time period that Linda's ship sank
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right and obviously different different
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metals react quite differently to the
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saltwater conditions that the Republic
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sank in correct so again when you start
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with your base metals or your coppers
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they tend to not to survive so well
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because you know copper is very porous
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and gets eaten in and then silver was
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the next level up and then of course you
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get to Gold the most one of the most
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noble metals and for the most part once
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you were able to get the incrustation
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out they were phenomenal coins so
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whether you have grains so whether you
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have your point certified or not it's
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important to make sure that they're
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stored in the proper archival media
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for a lot for many collectors or are
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people who are inheriting collections
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are coming upon collections that belong
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to family members PVC was one of the
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dominant storage media in the 1960 70s
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and 80s and at this point it's not a
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it's not advised to use BBC and and and
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the plastic the soft plastic is breaking
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down on the coins and perhaps ruining
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them as we speak is there a point where
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PVC damage is too severe that the coins
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are lost and if and what are the
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telltale signs someone should look for
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on their coins to tell that it's time to
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get these coins can serve before they
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reach that point right well first of all
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yes over the ages the coins have been
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stored in the various ways you can start
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with you may be the sixteen hundred's
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where they were in wooden drawers so
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obviously they would pick up a lot of
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toning from that then like you said they
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went to you know plastics and early on
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plastic was a lot of PVC to make them
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pliable when the PVC reacted with the
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air it's it it has 100 hydrochloric acid
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and that would eat into the coin like
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you said so a lot of times people's can
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see it actually as a blue haze or toning
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on the coin which you see it's easily
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removed and it has no effect on the coin
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then you get into deeper levels of color
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and then sometimes you get into a really
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brown thick haze and at that point when
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either gets to a brown haze or see green
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spots which is actual especially on
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copper the actual physical breaking down
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of it or if you see that getting
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extremely dark so the dark you get the
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more likely that has eaten into the
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surface of the coin where there's
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actually physical damage Solal were able
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to take the PBC off and neutralize it
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it's so we'll of eating into the coin
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and cause some effect to the grey or
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actually like you've mentioned it may
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not be gradable at all due to some
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extreme environmental damage you know
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one of the telltale signs is that the
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PVC is is breaking down leaves sort of a
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sticky residue on the coin correct right
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and that's a lot of times because it's
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also because of the plastics as it's
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breaking down and you still have that
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fine coat of plastic on that it's sticky
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but again if you do touch a coin and
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it's sticky your thumbprint could go on
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the coin and I've seen it to where and
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actually you can do this take just a
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brand new penny
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put your fingerprint on it and leave it
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there and come back in here and see what
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happens and you'll see that it has been
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stained right into the coin and can't
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come out so if you happen to touch your
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coin which people can do at times the
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best thing to do is send it in so we can
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professionally take it off so that it'll
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get removed all the oils the acids and
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anything else that's on the coin and
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keep your coin fresh and like you
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mentioned the best thing to do nowadays
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is especially with NGC we've had years
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of experimentation we've had testing by
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the Smithsonian Institute to make sure
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that all pieces of the holder the core
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the auto layers and even the insert is
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total archival and it won't react with
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the coin whatsoever so if you have a
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coin that's conserved properly that has
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no residue that's put into an inert
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holder and it's stored in a proper place
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with low humidity that you'll be able to
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enjoy that coin for generations so David
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the collector has a coin GC holder know
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that that could benefit from Queen
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restoration is it automatically enough
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great service no that's probably the
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biggest fallacy
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the reason it's a lot of people a
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tribute to an upgrade is because again
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we do such a good job and we're able to
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remove all the film of the coin but not
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do anything to the surface of the coin
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but a lot of time it has a very positive
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eye appeal it will get it to the next
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grade but that's not a certainty there's
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a lot of people that do not send coins
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in for the upgrade but they sent in
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because it doesn't look nice it has a
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red spot on the on the gold or something
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like that it's just to make the
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appearance a lot better and again if the
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appearance is better all the time yes it
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will get a higher grade but also the
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contrary to that is sometimes if it is
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full of heavy PVC or a film it can also
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reveal stuff that you couldn't see
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before so there's no assurance that it
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will keep the same grade or go up for
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the most part we try not to conserve a
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coin if we know it's definitely going to
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go down without consulting the customer
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because grade that grade has a lot to do
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with the value nowadays but again our
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job basically is to make the coin as
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neutral as possible and to get off any
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film an added benefit a lot of times
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would be that if a coin is heavily tone
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or ugly and we're able to remove it it
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will get an upgrade and it's also
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important for collectors to realize that
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grade is not the determinant factor
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on what attributes value to a coin I
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peel plays just as important a role is
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great
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so the combination of great and I appeal
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it's how you maximize value in a
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collectible coin exactly and that's why
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I said so you had a beautiful Morgan
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that's rainbow tone that had a light
11:19
spot on the forehead that you found
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beautiful stuff on the spot
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well we they sent it to us can you
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please ruin the spot if we could we just
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remove that spot and all Sun Wow now you
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have an incredible coin now it may not
11:31
get an upgrade maybe it gets a star but
11:32
maybe the collectors just happy because
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we were able to remove just that one
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little spot that he didn't like whereas
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if the coin was dipped out to its
11:40
original brilliance you'd probably lose
11:41
a lot of the premium that rainbow tone
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he would have brought it in the market
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absolutely and that's another good point
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you bring up is again the coins are
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evaluated by the staff that have looked
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at hundreds of thousands of coins and a
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familiar with each issue and also
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understand gratings so we take all those
11:57
factors into account I appeal surface of
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the coin to determine whether we should
12:02
conserve it or not you ever get those
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situations where you get this amazing
12:05
coin it's just a real shame you can't do
12:07
anything to help
12:08
absolutely yeah you you can get a nickel
12:11
coin say this beautiful rainbow tone
12:13
that does have a lot of carbon flecks on
12:15
and you know there's no way you can
12:16
remove the carbon flex or if you do
12:18
they'd be little white spots and the
12:19
white spots are just as annoying as the
12:21
black spots so we just want to do it
12:24
great and also one other thing is is
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that we don't always conserve a coin of
12:28
a customer requested as you brought up
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if someone has a beautiful rainbow tone
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more again and a lot of times they'd say
12:34
can you take all the turning off
12:35
sometimes we feel them aesthetically we
12:37
won't do it because we feel that the
12:39
coin is beautiful the way it is so
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copper is a highly reactive metals been
12:42
used for millennia
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is it possible to use coin conservation
12:47
to restore copper to its original color
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actually that's a no in most of times
12:52
when a coin tones you've loosed that
12:55
redness you really can't bring it back
12:57
there are cases where again there could
12:59
be a thick film on there
13:00
so the core may even look mostly brown
13:02
and when we remove the film it could be
13:05
a red Brown that very really can we
13:07
remove the film and get at that original
13:09
red right so that but but it is
13:12
important to read to preserve copper
13:14
because it's so reactive it can develop
13:16
spots and
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and other issues that need to be treated
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right and they caught us since it's so
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reactive you're right if there's any PVC
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whatsoever it will immediately react
13:25
with the coin and again over time it'll
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tone it down great thanks for your
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answers de all you want