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In this interview, Charles Morgan talks to coin expert David Camire of Numismatic Conservation Services about the differences between coin restoration and coin doctoring - and how each problem coin must be examined before his company will elect to restore it.
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all right Dave what what does numismatic
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conservation service do for collectors
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what we do for collectors is were able
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to take any residue any film any little
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problems that are on a coin off of it in
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a way that it doesn't hurt the coin at
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all so Dave are there limitations to the
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types of things that a conservation
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service can do to restore a coin to its
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original glory yes there is and first we
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can start off by saying that before coin
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has even worked on or conserved at all
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it's looked at two or three people who
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actually very familiar with the coins
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the metal the type all the
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idiosyncrasies of the coin and we look
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at it in to see not only what can be
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taken off but also to preserve as much
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of the original surface as possible with
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that said we can't remove scratches or
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fix holes or anything that's been
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physically damage to the coin but as far
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as what's on the coin if there's any
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residue whatsoever or maybe some spots a
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lot of time we can either minimize that
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or reduce that if the coin is
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beautifully toned and maybe have some
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PVC we can take off the PVC very
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carefully and so leave that nice
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original patina so today most
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experienced coin dealers have at least a
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certain degree of knowledge about the
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how to treat coins with chemicals in
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order to to keep them fresh or to
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restore them I'm sure that NCS takes
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that expertise to like a whole nother
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level but what is the difference between
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coin doctoring which is a problem that
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plagues the rare coin industry and coin
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conservation right so I think with this
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the big difference is with coin
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conservation we're trying to make the
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coin look as original as possible by
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moving any residual film
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or anything to do with the coin but
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really keep the original surface of the
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coin whereas coin doctoring more is to
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fill it in its moly it's deceptive it's
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it's just trying to get to the next
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grade we're all though in conservation
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we're trying to get the highest grade
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possible for the customer at the coin
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we're also trying to preserve the
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original surface of the coin as much as
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possible so we don't do any filling in
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we don't do anything to make the coin
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appear such that it isn't can can you
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explain to me the NGC has a relationship
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with the Smithsonian Institution's
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National numismatic collection what
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services has NGC offered the Smithsonian
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to help preserve its coins which weren't
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always taken care of in the best
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possible way right and certainly you
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bring up an interesting point over the
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years conservational coin cleaning has
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changed in various amounts you know from
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putting arsenic on coins you know and to
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cleaning coins physically it's just it
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was a lack of education lack of
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understanding how coins are made all the
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way down to how coins are clean and
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stored so basically we had the unique
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opportunity to work with the Smithsonian
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who has of course the best coins in the
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world well over a million articles of
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numismatic and some of the rarest US
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coins and a lot of those coins in the
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past the way they would display is they
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had wax in the background that was stuck
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to a board which is was common back then
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but today is not done because obviously
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where the waxes it will prevent any
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toning on the coin but where the wax
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wasn't it could tone making for an
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undesirable look to the coin but most of
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all you had the sticky residue on the
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coin that if you were research it was
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really hard to do so what people tended
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to do is take their fingernail or
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something and try to remove it to see
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which could stretch scratch or damage
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the coin so we work with the Smithsonian
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we work with their conservation
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department on neutralizing all the coins
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removing the residue of the coin taking
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off the wax but again leaving all the
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original surfaces as much as possible
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and along with that we work with NGC and
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holder in the coins and an inert holder
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and know that preserve them for future
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generations what had been a few of your
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high
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lights as a professional I guess a
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professional in the coin industry and
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working for NGC yeah first of all is a
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all the us amazing US coins I've seen
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not only all the classic rarities like
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the 1804 dollar 13 nickel but the 4920
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that's in the Smithsonian the 65 s 20
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this is in the Smithsonian many unique
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coins many neat coins worldwide we deal
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a lot now with coins from around the
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world and there's been some phenomenal
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coins have come through conservation
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that have been improperly stored in the
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past or all residue to come off that
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turned out amazing and it's almost like
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they were given new birth so NGC has
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also been involved of the preservation
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and certification of shipwreck treasure
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recovered shipwreck treasure like the SS
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Republic and other other finds what what
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does that experience like
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well that was unique because we had a
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console with outside professionals or to
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assist us because these coins were
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underwater for such a long time and had
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developed a whole different scenario
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than when you used to when the coins are
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just stored improperly meaning there was
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an crustacean they're involved with iron
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residue and things like that and what
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was amazing is most of these coins we
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didn't know the date we didn't know the
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denomination until we conserve them so
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everyone I was like opening up a little
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treasure box and of course with the SS
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Republic there was quite a few extreme
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rarities it showed up and there was
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other shipwrecks we did where literally
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it was all in concretion would took them
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apart
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it was coins from all over the world so
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it also goes back and it tells a little
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piece of history of what was used during
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that time period that Linda's ship sank
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right and obviously different different
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metals react quite differently to the
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saltwater conditions that the Republic
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sank in correct so again when you start
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with your base metals or your coppers
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they tend to not to survive so well
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because you know copper is very porous
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and gets eaten in and then silver was
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the next level up and then of course you
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get to Gold the most one of the most
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noble metals and for the most part once
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you were able to get the incrustation
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out they were phenomenal coins so
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whether you have grains so whether you
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have your point certified or not it's
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important to make sure that they're
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stored in the proper archival media
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for a lot for many collectors or are
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people who are inheriting collections
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are coming upon collections that belong
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to family members PVC was one of the
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dominant storage media in the 1960 70s
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and 80s and at this point it's not a
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it's not advised to use BBC and and and
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the plastic the soft plastic is breaking
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down on the coins and perhaps ruining
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them as we speak is there a point where
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PVC damage is too severe that the coins
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are lost and if and what are the
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telltale signs someone should look for
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on their coins to tell that it's time to
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get these coins can serve before they
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reach that point right well first of all
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yes over the ages the coins have been
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stored in the various ways you can start
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with you may be the sixteen hundred's
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where they were in wooden drawers so
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obviously they would pick up a lot of
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toning from that then like you said they
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went to you know plastics and early on
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plastic was a lot of PVC to make them
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pliable when the PVC reacted with the
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air it's it it has 100 hydrochloric acid
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and that would eat into the coin like
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you said so a lot of times people's can
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see it actually as a blue haze or toning
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on the coin which you see it's easily
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removed and it has no effect on the coin
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then you get into deeper levels of color
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and then sometimes you get into a really
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brown thick haze and at that point when
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either gets to a brown haze or see green
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spots which is actual especially on
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copper the actual physical breaking down
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of it or if you see that getting
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extremely dark so the dark you get the
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more likely that has eaten into the
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surface of the coin where there's
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actually physical damage Solal were able
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to take the PBC off and neutralize it
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it's so we'll of eating into the coin
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and cause some effect to the grey or
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actually like you've mentioned it may
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not be gradable at all due to some
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extreme environmental damage you know
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one of the telltale signs is that the
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PVC is is breaking down leaves sort of a
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sticky residue on the coin correct right
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and that's a lot of times because it's
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also because of the plastics as it's
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breaking down and you still have that
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fine coat of plastic on that it's sticky
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but again if you do touch a coin and
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it's sticky your thumbprint could go on
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the coin and I've seen it to where and
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actually you can do this take just a
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brand new penny
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put your fingerprint on it and leave it
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there and come back in here and see what
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happens and you'll see that it has been
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stained right into the coin and can't
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come out so if you happen to touch your
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coin which people can do at times the
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best thing to do is send it in so we can
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professionally take it off so that it'll
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get removed all the oils the acids and
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anything else that's on the coin and
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keep your coin fresh and like you
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mentioned the best thing to do nowadays
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is especially with NGC we've had years
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of experimentation we've had testing by
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the Smithsonian Institute to make sure
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that all pieces of the holder the core
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the auto layers and even the insert is
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total archival and it won't react with
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the coin whatsoever so if you have a
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coin that's conserved properly that has
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no residue that's put into an inert
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holder and it's stored in a proper place
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with low humidity that you'll be able to
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enjoy that coin for generations so David
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the collector has a coin GC holder know
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that that could benefit from Queen
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restoration is it automatically enough
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great service no that's probably the
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biggest fallacy
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the reason it's a lot of people a
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tribute to an upgrade is because again
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we do such a good job and we're able to
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remove all the film of the coin but not
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do anything to the surface of the coin
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but a lot of time it has a very positive
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eye appeal it will get it to the next
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grade but that's not a certainty there's
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a lot of people that do not send coins
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in for the upgrade but they sent in
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because it doesn't look nice it has a
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red spot on the on the gold or something
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like that it's just to make the
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appearance a lot better and again if the
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appearance is better all the time yes it
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will get a higher grade but also the
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contrary to that is sometimes if it is
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full of heavy PVC or a film it can also
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reveal stuff that you couldn't see
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before so there's no assurance that it
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will keep the same grade or go up for
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the most part we try not to conserve a
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coin if we know it's definitely going to
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go down without consulting the customer
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because grade that grade has a lot to do
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with the value nowadays but again our
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job basically is to make the coin as
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neutral as possible and to get off any
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film an added benefit a lot of times
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would be that if a coin is heavily tone
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or ugly and we're able to remove it it
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will get an upgrade and it's also
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important for collectors to realize that
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grade is not the determinant factor
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on what attributes value to a coin I
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peel plays just as important a role is
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great
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so the combination of great and I appeal
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it's how you maximize value in a
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collectible coin exactly and that's why
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I said so you had a beautiful Morgan
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that's rainbow tone that had a light
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spot on the forehead that you found
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beautiful stuff on the spot
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well we they sent it to us can you
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please ruin the spot if we could we just
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remove that spot and all Sun Wow now you
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have an incredible coin now it may not
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get an upgrade maybe it gets a star but
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maybe the collectors just happy because
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we were able to remove just that one
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little spot that he didn't like whereas
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if the coin was dipped out to its
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original brilliance you'd probably lose
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a lot of the premium that rainbow tone
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he would have brought it in the market
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absolutely and that's another good point
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you bring up is again the coins are
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evaluated by the staff that have looked
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at hundreds of thousands of coins and a
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familiar with each issue and also
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understand gratings so we take all those
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factors into account I appeal surface of
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the coin to determine whether we should
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conserve it or not you ever get those
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situations where you get this amazing
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coin it's just a real shame you can't do
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anything to help
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absolutely yeah you you can get a nickel
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coin say this beautiful rainbow tone
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that does have a lot of carbon flecks on
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and you know there's no way you can
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remove the carbon flex or if you do
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they'd be little white spots and the
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white spots are just as annoying as the
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black spots so we just want to do it
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great and also one other thing is is
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that we don't always conserve a coin of
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a customer requested as you brought up
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if someone has a beautiful rainbow tone
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more again and a lot of times they'd say
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can you take all the turning off
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sometimes we feel them aesthetically we
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won't do it because we feel that the
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coin is beautiful the way it is so
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copper is a highly reactive metals been
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used for millennia
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is it possible to use coin conservation
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to restore copper to its original color
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actually that's a no in most of times
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when a coin tones you've loosed that
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redness you really can't bring it back
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there are cases where again there could
12:59
be a thick film on there
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so the core may even look mostly brown
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and when we remove the film it could be
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a red Brown that very really can we
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remove the film and get at that original
13:09
red right so that but but it is
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important to read to preserve copper
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because it's so reactive it can develop
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spots and
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and other issues that need to be treated
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right and they caught us since it's so
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reactive you're right if there's any PVC
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whatsoever it will immediately react
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with the coin and again over time it'll
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tone it down great thanks for your
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answers de all you want