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Meet the CEO who wants Rihanna to join his board | Boardroom Uncovered
Sep 17, 2025
The chief executive of Ordnance Survey has revealed why he thinks pop icon Rihanna would make the perfect addition to his boardroom. Nick Bolton, who runs the history national mapping agency, told City AM’s Boardroom Uncovered podcast that the singer-turned-entrepreneur embodies the kind of imagination and edge every company needs. Speaking to City AM's UK editor, Jon Robinson, on the latest episode of City AM's Boardroom Uncovered, Bolton said: "Rihanna would be brilliant. Not just as a performer, but as an entrepreneur." Watch or listen to more Boardroom Uncovered episodes here 👇 https://linktr.ee/boardroomuncovered Get more of City AM 👇 🌐 http://www.cityam.com X(formerly Twitter): http://twitter.com/CityAM Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/cityam Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/city_am LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/company/cityam Produced by: Jon Robinson, Joseph Curay Teneda, Matt Kenyon #business #interview #podcast #ceo #entrepreneur #entrepreneurship #tech #technology #finance #financialnews #personalfinance #businessnews #businessgrowth #economics #economy #tax #money #opinion #labourparty #rachelreeves #butlins #uknews #ukeconomy #ukfinance #ukpolitics #ukbusiness #politicalnews #politicsnews #hospitality
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0:00
Hello and welcome to a very special opening of Sporting Recovereds. I've got the boss of Ordinance Survey, Nick
0:05
Bolton, with me. It's great to have you here. Great to be here. We're going to put him through his paces. Now, we're going to see if you
0:11
have Well, you've got what it takes really to stay in the job. We got the job on the line. I think with this one,
0:17
what we're going to do is It's always very difficult when you're out on a walk and you've got your
0:22
ordinance survey map. blown a gale. You've got it out and is trying to get it back to this pristine
0:28
uh condition here. What we're going to do is we're going to see which one of us can unfurl it the quickest and then put
0:34
it back to its original state. Right. And not even there's no wind either. There's no wind. We We should really have got a wind machine in.
0:40
Yeah. All of that sheer drop a sheer drop down. We can imagine that this we're on a cliff.
0:46
Yes. And our job is to unfurl re pick it up without falling down. Absolutely. Okay.
0:51
Are you ready? I am ready. Very good. Let's go. Okay. Well, how
0:58
beautiful is that? I mean, the hard thing is you got all of this beauty. You
1:03
want to look at it. Trying to rip it. That's the thing.
1:10
Okay. Ready? Oh, well, I I've done it already. You put it back. Yeah, I can do it again.
1:18
It's not. Hello and welcome to another edition of City Am's Borroom Uncovered with me, John Robinson. My guest for this episode
1:25
is Nick Bolton, the CEO of Ordinance Survey. With a history dating back to the reign of George III, the
1:32
government-owned company undoubtedly has its own unique place in British history. But how is the business taking on the
1:38
likes of Google and Apple and attempting to maintain its relevance after all these years? Without any further delay,
1:45
let's dive in. Well, Nick, we've proven, well, you've proven really that you're good at unfurling paper maps. Are you
1:52
any good at reading them? Yeah, I'm I think so. Yeah, I think I'm okay. I mean, the thing to remember is
1:58
that uh maps now means so many more things than it used to from, you know, from my child and or from your
2:03
childhood. So, actually, you know, the we're now consuming and producing, you
2:08
know, millions of maps every single day. The maps that, you know, take you from home to uh work. uh that are on your
2:14
phone that lo and behold are all powered by our you know our data. Uh when when you say can you any good at reading maps
2:20
actually the answer is well it kind of depends on which one ones that speak to you and speak to that audience because we can be much more specific about those
2:26
maps than we ever could before. What about the paper ones then? Are you talking about specifically about our excellent products explore and land
2:32
ranger the things you can't put down nor can you fold up some might say? Yeah. No, I'm good at
2:37
doing those things. I think so. Yeah, I love them. I mean you know you that's the world I grew up in. Um and I still
2:44
maintain if you go to other countries and look at their cgraphy. Um it doesn't make my heart sing like uh like a Land
2:50
Ranger Explorer does. And actually, you know, that is something I talk about both inside the business. I talked about well before I was here. You know, maps
2:56
are about truth and beauty. They're about we need the clarity of the data because we've got to know where we're getting to and we need that to be
3:02
accurate. But also, they've got to be intuitively understandable. And actually, that means you're in the the
3:08
visual the art realm. And the art realm means that you're appealing both to heart then as well as head. Another way
3:13
to think about it is that clearly a spreadsheet is full of very strong truth or analysis at least. But you don't put
3:19
spreadsheets on the wall, but you do put maps on your wall. Some people might do. Well, I you know, I've said it a number of times. I've yet to find someone. If
3:25
you're that person, John, tremendous and great. Although maybe I you look into
3:30
your soul a bit more to see how much love is in there. There must be somebody who puts a spreadsheet on the wall. But maps are beautiful, aren't they?
3:36
something to look out and the bits of artwork as as you say um and they've been with us for years and years. I mean the lasso paint cave
3:43
paintings of 20,000 years ago in lots of ways they're maps you know these creatures are there those rocks are
3:49
there don't watch out for that bush over there and you know even even then some of the first town plans that's 2,600
3:56
years ago. So maps have been a a way that we've been connecting as as human beings uh ever since the since the year
4:03
dot. It's essentially a h you know an essential human uh tool. The beauty that we now have within our land ranger and
4:09
our explorer maps are just the very logical you know presentation of where it stands today. And of course then in
4:14
terms of where it's going to go you know those digital maps those modern maps of 15 20 years hence will still have to
4:20
carry those two mantels. the ones of the analysis, the ones of the accuracy, as well as the ones of the beauty and the
4:25
des the visual description of that incredible sets of data. As the boss of one survey, do you have
4:32
Google Maps on your phone? Is that cheating or No, no, absolutely. They're very much I
4:39
mean Google Maps is an amazing uh achievement and I'm very proud that you know for for Great Britain um they they
4:46
you know that the d they effectively front up our data for for Great Britain but that's true for all sorts of apps
4:52
that you use on your phone. If you look at your homepage it's not just Google Maps is there pretty much every app on everybody's home every other app on
4:58
everyone's homepage has got a map in it. be that snap, you know, uh be that weather, uh be that photos, you know, we
5:05
now navigate our digital uh and physical realm through maps. Well, of course we
5:11
would for the same reasons why the lasso caves people were navigating their their physical environment. Now, so I'm super
5:16
proud actually of the place that maps now holds in everybody's life. I mean, when I was growing up, uh you know, this
5:22
was the 70s and broadly is your dad had the map. Yeah. and dad would be driving along in there until we got lost and
5:28
then mom would take the map off him and and try to get him to fix it tend to the steering wheel as he's driving
5:34
but but effectively it was relative few people that touched those map you know there's four kids in my family and it was one kid that actually held the map
5:40
when we went walking in the peak district whereas now actually you know uh how you came to work today I would
5:46
suggest you probably looked at a map before you left uh left the house because you wanted to check was the was the train running on time or was there
5:52
traffic to the station etc. Traffic is key. Yeah. Completely. And so that that means now that whereas before map and mapping was
6:00
held in a relatively small audience, now it's absolutely universal. Google Maps has 2.2 billion 2.2 billion monthly
6:08
users. Yeah. Apple Maps 500 million. You know that that's that's that's not something we should be uh concerned
6:15
about. It's something we should be embracing. The challenge I think we've got more as an industry is how do we make sure that we get um we get more
6:23
maps for more specific purposes. So you know the great thing about Google maps is it's a great POI so point of interest
6:28
data store so you can find out things that are near or you go to a new town which restaurant do I want to go to and then how do I get there? So POI and NAV
6:36
is what it does. But equally there's a lot of the growth challenges that we face as a country if not as a or issues
6:42
that we face as a as a globe um rely on an understanding of the physical
6:48
environment be be that man-made or be that um natural. And so maps have a
6:53
role, you know, to play in that. Where should I build those 200 houses? Where where how should I best manage the water
6:59
course that relates that? What what transportation do I need? Where should I put a Thursday morning older adult uh
7:06
drop-in clinic for early early onset uh dementia for them and their carers in the South Hampshire area? That's a
7:12
geographical geospatial uh question right now. How do you answer that? Well, that person who's trying to organize
7:18
that in South Hampshire, they're probably looking down a list of where are the postcodes of the you know the the people that are presenting with
7:24
that. Whereas actually you should be able to answer that through a map. And so one of I think our core tasks and one
7:31
one of the ways that we can really drive economic growth for the country is really make is democratize the tools of
7:37
those that mapping production. We've got the data that isn't the problem. You know we've got 500 million features 500
7:43
million features that updated 20,000 times a day. So we know Britain better than anybody else. But right now that
7:49
sits on a server and that does not butter any parnips that we've got to put in the hands of the people who've got
7:55
those geospatial questions. So that answering that geospatial question should be as easy as asking it. That's
8:01
that's our task. And Nick, you've been in the job for a couple years now. I have since 2023. I'm wondering whether there was an
8:08
OSbased themed initiation when you joined. Did you
8:13
get driven out to the middle of the countryside home? Now I've done that with my children. That was something we
8:18
did just coming out of lockdown. I said uh I mean this this I can't remember how old they were 16 and 14. and I
8:25
blindfolded them, put them in the car and drove them somewhere and said, "Here's a map." This is well before you get pulled over when you're doing that.
8:31
No. No. Excuse me, sir. Why? Why?
8:36
No. Um, and that was well before I was even think, you know, I hadn't been approached about the ordinance survey job or or or anything, but and listen,
8:43
my maybe my two children are crazy, but you know, they're really, but you know, they they
8:49
loved it and they got back, you know, four or five hours later. So, I did that with my children. They didn't do that to me. the the initiation um uh I mean
8:57
induction let's let's give it a more corporate uh uh term um I'd met a number
9:02
of people so I'd been uh offered a job it had been announced that I was uh moving and actually what was lovely is
9:08
in all of my network was the uh was the inbound saying what congratulations this
9:14
is great the and there was love there you know again because ordinance survey holds a special place in people's hearts
9:20
yeah as well as in in their minds because now they remember their granddad did XY Z or the way that they proposed
9:27
to their partner was on and they got a map and they marked the X on the map and now that's on the wall there, you know,
9:32
there's there's real love there. And in those people who then contacted me, they actually then said, "Oh, we use OS data for this and we use OS data for that."
9:39
And so actually a lot of the stuff uh during that uh summer before I started in the October of 23 was actually going
9:46
to see these people and that was really quite joyous because I think you know there I I reason I thought I was
9:51
reasonably up to date in terms of all things geospatial in terms of what ordinance survey does uh for the country but there I was learning about these new
9:57
applications. I didn't even know that OS had that reach and actually that's that's the enduring uh joy that happens
10:05
almost every day. you know, ordinance surveys data is this invisible fabric that underpins uh the country. Um you'd
10:12
know if it wasn't there certainly. Um but the fact it is there and it's used from everything from national security
10:18
and resilience all the way through to you know decisions about healthcare and education all the way through to where
10:23
should we go Friday night that that I I love that aspect to to uh to to the
10:28
role. I saw it as part of the induction and to be honest I'm being inducted every day since initiated. Well, it's as
10:36
you said, it's been around for ages, you know. I think it was found in 1791. Very good.
10:41
Quick quiz, pop quiz. Yeah. Who was on the British throne in 1791?
10:46
Uh, George by George. Oh, give it a punch. George II.
10:52
George the third. It's a mad one. This is my get your own for Sorry. History, you say?
10:58
History. Yeah, I did history at uni. So, I've got to put a history quiz. Well, it's rooted in the Jacobite rebellion. So we if you go to the James
11:06
II era. So after the Jacobite rebellion there was a chap called William Roy who
11:12
did a survey of the uh the sort of lowlands of uh Scotland. Um and really because effectively uh the English at
11:20
the time wanted to try and control these marauders who were coming down uh from Scotland orally depower any idea of a
11:25
Scottish throne being separate from an English uh throne. By the way, these are the opinions of somebody who did engineering university. I feel have
11:31
completely comfortable if you're going to correct me on any of it. But what they found from that actually was that maps in lots of ways they were they were
11:38
doing it in order to work out where where people might hide. But actually they really became instruments to create a civil order. Yeah. Because actually
11:45
now you know one farmer wanted to know where his land stopped and where the other farmer began. And actually maps
11:51
then have always kind of done that, right? They they provide a degree of order to a society. Um and actually you
11:58
know it was that then that gave rise for throwing William Roy then too uh with the threat of Napoleon while our navies
12:05
were abroad was is the is the big sort of charter how the stable for our charter of how we were established
12:11
whilst our navies were abroad they feared Napoleon would be coming across the uh across the channel. So we better
12:17
have a pretty good map of the south coast of England. So 1791 I found we do to do that. It took us 10 years to make
12:23
the first map. The first map is one of uh Kent. And if you ever get a chance, come down to Southampton and see it
12:28
because it really is absolutely uh a work of beauty. Then did the South Coast and then people realized actually maps
12:34
were more than just about civil protection. They were about a civil society. And so actually they became an
12:40
instrument then for um for a growth of an industrial nation, of a social nation, of an environment.
12:46
And you've been around ever since. You certainly don't want to be the CEO who uh who mucks the whole thing up. Well, I
12:51
don't think anybody wants that, but I mean I think I the one thing that's different about I mean I I came from a
12:57
business that was founded in 1984. Yeah. And I was the second CEO then and I was there for 18 and a half uh years. A
13:04
lovely, you know, a lovely and a great business, but not one that's been around for 200 years. And so there's this idea
13:09
of a centennial organization. In other words, organizations that have been around for 100 years and probably need to be around another hundred years time.
13:16
And that means that that task is slightly different. Mhm. Um it's it's one much more of
13:21
stewardship. Yeah. So in other words, uh if we inherit the the wood, our task is
13:27
to leave in a better condition than we inherited it. It is nothing more than uh that. So I don't think it is there's not
13:34
this idea of devastation, but there is this idea of, you know, good good aroreal husbandry, you know, with with
13:40
that data. And of course, that really then relates back to well, who are the users of that forest? Who are the users
13:46
of the data? We have to attend to that because ultimately that's the that's the reason why the forest exists. The forest
13:52
of data exists in order people can build productive lives from that. I don't want
13:58
to stretch the metaphor but the logging and the paper production or the people walking through it. That that is a fundamentally hard task and actually
14:04
that is what gets me up every day you know that that inner uh drive to make
14:10
sure that we can deliver increase you know to deliver better outcomes for British citizens because we exist. That
14:16
is why I get out of bed. That is why it was such an interesting role. And it would be a company, a service that we would all notice if you weren't
14:24
around anymore. Absolutely. You'd be lost without us. That's the strap line. Well, I just invented that, but yeah,
14:30
that's the new strap line. That's quite good, actually. Yeah. Yeah. Pass it on to the marketing department.
14:35
That's right. When you start seeing it here, we'll put a little because John John asked. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Please, please, please. And I'll I'll take a quid every
14:42
time it's used. Well, okay. Yeah. Was Yeah. was state owned by the the state. I don't think
14:47
you want to be stealing from your fellow citizens in that in that sort of way. Or maybe you do, John.
14:52
No, no, no, no. Do you want to talk a bit about you? We can take the direction and give to the poor, but we'll go Monday Robin
14:59
Hood. Um, you mentioned about being owned by the state. I wanted to ask about this. Great. So, wholly owned by the government, who
15:05
exactly is your boss? Is it Karma? Uh, well, ultimately, I suppose that is
15:10
true. I hadn't thought about it in those terms. So um I report to a board of directors. Um we are what's called a gov
15:16
co. So in other words we we operate and run uh as you'd expect any sort of PLC
15:22
uh to operate and run. You know a board of directors who were interested in making sure the strategies right and the execution of that's right and the right
15:28
the appropriate checks and balances and around governance are there. And actually that's quite similar to my
15:33
previous job because it was a small PLC listed on AIM. Um so that that you would recognize from anybody else who'd ever
15:38
run a a PLC. Um where it then changes is really the
15:44
holder of that share is the department for science innovation and technology. Now they they use another group called
15:51
UKGI to actually administer that share. So they are so on our board is someone from UK UKGI UK government investments
15:59
and they make sure that you know we're doing everything that we want in the interest of that uh shareholder. But
16:04
ultimately it means really that we've got a minister Baroness Jones that that is the representative of that shell and
16:10
Baroness Jones reports into Peter Kyle who's the secretary of state for for DIT and Peter Kr reports I guess into Karma
16:18
but then when also Karma he reports to us doesn't he as the electorate it's a circle really
16:23
I suppose that is right I think that means I'm in charge though of the whole of the of the whole so the PM's not doing your your annual
16:30
review and no no the board is though the board is the is but I think that does point then
16:35
um and DET actually as a department is an excellent department because it does represent this horizontal capability uh
16:41
because science innovation technology relates to DERA as it relates to transport as it relates to uh education.
16:48
Yeah. So that's the benefit that we can we can bring. So there's no special treatment then you can't you know get on the inter into
16:54
into government phones and ring up the treasury ask for a little bit more money or put any pressure on what's going to
16:59
be in the budget. Uh I no special treatment like that if I if Yeah. I don't think so. I don't I I look for the magic phone that I can
17:05
do that, but I don't think that exists. I think, you know, what we what we do have is a long-term funding model that
17:11
means that we can make the right sorts of long-term investments in technology. Technology isn't something you can just invest in a single year and then hope
17:17
that you get some increased budget allocation for year. You need to invest over epochs, you know, 5, 10, 15 uh
17:23
years. We have that in place. And so actually there's an awful lot about what we want to do for the country, what we
17:28
want to do for businesses, what we want to do for government, what we want to do for citizens that actually is completely secured and was within our gift. That
17:34
that again isn't that dissimilar to, you know, your five years fiveyear plan that
17:39
you would roll out to a set of shareholders here in the city about what you want to achieve as a as a PLC. So
17:45
for me, it feels like a logical extension. So Nick, we're going to do some quickfire questions now. Are you ready?
17:51
I am. [Music]
17:56
First one, what was your first job? Uh first job actually was working for my dad. Uh so my dad ran a very small uh
18:04
technology business in Cambridge that made uh photocopers that opened ancient books to 90°. It was one of the first
18:10
applications of CCD uh cameras. So charge couple devices. CCD charge couple devices. So there was in
18:17
the 80s uh there was a big revolution happening in terms of uh image sensors.
18:22
That means you can now deal with imagery uh on a digital basis. And they had had interest from the British Library who
18:28
had got all these ancient books, but rather than taking a book and putting a photocopy and you know breaking the spine while you're there, uh they wanted
18:35
them open just to 90° and have a camera uh scan and he wanted some cheap labor.
18:40
I was going to ask what did he pay you? Cheap labor. It does mean I've got he did he did pay my national insurance. I don't think he
18:46
actually paid me uh at all because if I look back at my national insurance records, it stretches back to 1983.
18:52
Uh as a result, I was 14 years old building these uh things. But the challenge that dad then had with that
18:58
business was that you know the world market for photocopers that open books, ancient books to 90° was eight. Yeah.
19:04
And they were all at the British uh library. But actually for me that that that lit this is quickfire questions
19:10
quickire long form answers. You've lent into the the uh the format definitely. Okay. Well, I was going to
19:16
say, so but what what I did learn really from that and what's always excited me about technology is not the technology
19:21
in its own right, but the application of that technology. So, you know, I would have been delighted if there had been
19:26
the world market for that just 80 dad, please. But rather what I've always tried to do is I'm not I'm less
19:31
interested in science. I'm much more interested in engineering. Yes, you got to understand the science to be able to do that, but it's not the pure thing
19:37
that it's about the difference it brings to people's lives. It's the joy it brings. Second question. Quick fire question.
19:42
Understood. Understood. Double underline on Quake. who inspires you? Um, a whole bunch of people in my life.
19:49
So, you know, whether it's my math teacher, Mr. Plumber, um, uh, or my first real proper boss, Pete Meddings,
19:56
um, Pete was one of those people who just gave you latitude. And in all of these those instances, it's people have
20:02
seen seen past the idiot that was in front of them and saw something more and then
20:08
they backed me uh, on that. And you know I could point back to conversation that well Anthony Simmons Gooding Anthony was
20:13
the uh the boss of Whitbread in the 70s of Sachis in the 80s and there he was
20:19
this chairman of this newly minted CEO of a PLC and he really helped me not
20:25
just believe in myself but also give me checks and balances. So it's those those are the people inspiring. I would also
20:30
say uh the folks at ordinance serve I've given out a lot of 40-year plaques this year. So people who joined in you know
20:37
83 84 who 85 who've effectively given the whole of their working in life to
20:42
ordinance survey. I mean that's an incredible investment rare these days isn't it? And I've been giving out those plaques
20:47
one a week pretty much for the whole of 2025. Now it helped that there was a 40-year gap. The 40 years before that
20:54
was just post war. So there was a lot of investment in maps and mapping at that time. But still those people made that choice. We all have choices about how we
21:00
apply oursel to the task in front of us. and they've made that commitment to our organization to deliver for the country.
21:06
That inspires me. Okay, another quick fire questions. Come on now. I'll try and do it in two words.
21:11
Come on. Um, you're like Roy Sutherland. Well, he's great, too. Um, if you had to appoint a celebrity to
21:18
your boards, who would it be and why? Uh, Rihanna. Why Rihanna? Uh, because
21:24
she is huge successful musically, uh, but even better at business. Fenty, you
21:29
know Fenty, she owns half of that with LVMH. She's made more money out of Fenty than she's ever made out of uh music. Um
21:37
she also has got this great tattoo. Uh is it a map? It's Well, it's a map for life, if I
21:43
could stretch it. Uh never a failure, always a lesson. Yeah. Um and you also
21:48
would mean that we could invite Eminem to come on management team off sites. Yeah. Because they're mates. That just makes sense, doesn't it?
21:54
Obvious logical. Yeah. Big Matt fans. Um what's the best thing about your job? Uh the the people and the task. So the
22:01
people in the sense that uh unlike lots of other businesses you've there's it's
22:06
it's the nexus of of so many different things of the analytical of the aesthetic you know of the beautiful of
22:12
the mapmaking of the law of the account that's really unusual. So actually we do
22:17
this reach out to local secondary schools where we run a careers fair that actually just brings people in because I I think in general when you're a kid you
22:24
don't really know that there are all these really weird and wonderful uh jobs area. We we we do that to and I we can
22:30
put together a careers fair that represents pretty much every possible job that you could ever think of, you know, from um everything from running,
22:37
you know, a sophisticated modern building all the way through to uh drawing on a map a pecked line of a
22:42
certain detail. That that that means then that nexus of the hybrid task, it's
22:48
the people. If you could imagine that you're not doing this job anymore, what would you be doing in an ideal world? Choose.
22:54
Uh I would be still running businesses. I'm really interested in the collective endeavor of the human spirit. Always
22:59
have been. I'm a team sport kind of person. One of the best things in sport is the one two. Yeah. You you pass the
23:06
ball to me. Yeah. I know what you're going to run next. I don't even have to look. I can keep my eyes shut and I'll pass the ball to where you're going to
23:11
be. That intuitive understanding through that common mental model that you get to do on a daily basis in a a business. And
23:18
that's where uh the joy is. In terms of business, I'm a bit of a uh creative um
23:24
uh groupy. I like hanging around with creative people. I'm not I'm okay with creativity, but I've recognized in my
23:29
career that I really like hanging around with creative folk. And so, but if I got the chance to do a turnaround on a much
23:36
loved global luxury brand where we could bring design large to that audience, I'd
23:42
like to have a go at doing that. But in some ways, kind of ordinance survey is that opportunity. Right. And finally, if you were your ultimate
23:48
boss for the day, Karma. Yes. What would you do? Uh what would I do? I would
23:54
that's slightly tricky hard question to answer as a public uh servant but I let me let me answer it uh this way you know
24:00
what I really am a big believer in DC as a I mean it's a relatively new department it's only been around for
24:06
what 9 months before I joined OS so it was February 23 that it was established but science and technology is something
24:12
this country does really well innovation as you know you referenced Rory Southerntherland innovation in advertising is something we do really
24:18
you know really really well honey freshes the parts other beers cannot reach uh all of the stellar art to our
24:24
reassuringly expensive all of that all of that stuff in around innovation we we've got a tremendous science base
24:30
tremendous higher education sector in uh in this country and we've also got a whole bunch of technologists that are
24:35
very practical and incredibly efficient you know the the engineers of Britain are different from the engineers I would
24:42
argue of anywhere else in the world um but in the trying to keep this slightly briefer the the the task of desit uh is
24:49
is crossgovernment right so all I I would say is we can drive I I would say put e continue to put the effort behind
24:55
DST to be this value this value driver of growth for the country that that would be what I would say. I mean, I can
25:01
give you the option to answer a uh budget related question, but I've got a feeling that you're not going to
25:10
Yeah, you can. It's up to you. Offair, you're the interviewer. Are you allowed to ask anything you like? Yeah,
25:15
I want to talk about ordinance survey. Uh off air, we were talking about the paper maps just before we went to go do
25:21
the challenge and you said that's less than 1% of your revenue. I would say that the vast majority of the British
25:26
public would think that that's all you do. Yeah, you turn over about 180 million.
25:32
Yeah. So, what the question is, what do you do? Well, this what the great thing about
25:37
the map is it's this physical embodiment. Yeah. Of an understanding of the built natural environment. That
25:42
built natural environment has been being surveyed for years and years and years all the way back to William Roy that we
25:48
talked about uh earlier in the interview. You know, that that we used to we used to do it all. you know, we
25:54
used to survey it, we used to plot it, we used to refine it, we even used to print it and we stuck it in the
26:00
envelopes, right? So we that we used to do all of that as we're a full value chain enterprise and actually running
26:05
that business in some ways was a bit more straightforward because the answer is does it make a better map? If it
26:10
does, let's do it. If it doesn't, you know, we're good. Yeah. Um whereas now actually the far by you know 99
26:18
something% of our revenues actually comes from the digital production and the digital serving of those data sets.
26:24
So where that pub is, where that road goes, where what's what's that building made up of, how tall it is, how many
26:30
floor is it, what's the angle of the roof, can we put PV cells uh on it, what's the thermal characteristics of
26:35
that building? All of that information. Yeah. all of that sort of hidden data that sits behind uh that environment
26:42
that is that's absolutely what we do and in some ways it's exactly what we used to do. It's just that that used to stay in the notebook of the surveyor whereas
26:49
now what we do is we make that available as a digital data set so that the apps on your phone can readily pull that so
26:55
that the visualizations that ministers are making decision can actually do that from informed modeled information. Yeah,
27:01
we are genuinely a data uh provider. The one of the biggest data providers in in GB,
27:06
maybe one of the oldest data companies in the country. I well we we always talk about we're we're one of the oldest tech businesses
27:12
in Britain. So what's interesting about ordinance survey is we're not very backward-looking, right? So we've got a
27:18
lovely archive, but it's been in a roller shutter lockup door even though it's got some amazing bits of tech in
27:24
there. It's because we're so lean forward. We stick it in a skip once it's become, you know, uh redundant. But if
27:30
you look at the history of ordinance survey, so things like Ramden's Theodelite from 1792,
27:35
Jesse Ramden was this really uh incredible uh instrument maker and uh
27:41
through it uh the founder of survey recognized well we could do a survey a really good trigonometrical survey of
27:47
Britain because that instrument existed and if you then if you then track that all the way through really to
27:53
lithography to aerial photography now to the application of convolutional neural nets to do um object identification from
28:01
from aerial photography which by the way was what we we do I mean lot of people talk about as if AI was invented you know in November
28:08
of uh 22 yeah the big breakthrough in image in computer vision was in 2012
28:15
yeah Jeff Hinton University of Toronto and that was about imageet Alexet and so
28:20
forth that was all about really object recognition so that means ever since then we've been roping it in but we we
28:26
but we don't talk about you know we you know we don't talk about that Because actually the ultimate thing is to express that in a map. Yeah. And the map
28:32
itself is this wonderful article that allows you to answer a geospatial uh question just at a glance.
28:38
Could you make an OS map via AI? Uh there are aspects of the data that we extract. Now that is all generated
28:44
through AI. So things like identifying um automatic feature extraction. So
28:49
saying this feature on the ground, we've trained the net on on representative imagery. who would have now said if that
28:56
thing turns up label that as a uh as a field or as a hedge row or as a whatever. Yeah. So that that's that's
29:02
standard and routine. You you really kind of want to think about uh the then is that a map? Well,
29:08
it kind of is, but it exists as a series of ones and zeros with some commas uh in there. It is a map the computer could
29:15
understand, but then what does a human need to understand uh from that? And then of course that's that trans that's
29:20
translation from the data world, the surveyor's pocketbook. Yeah. Into the
29:26
physical artifact that is the map or the digital artifact that is a map. We've got every right to make sure that we're
29:31
providing that uh bridging there because that's what we've been doing uh for years. There's a thing called the biscuit book uh uh with inordinance
29:38
survey which is effectively once you make these measurements, how do we best communicate that to the consumers of our
29:43
map? It's called the biscuit book because it came in a a buff biscuit colored folder. Yeah, it had these
29:48
little metal pins on it and if you're one of our ctographers as we came up with new things, someone's built a glass
29:54
house. Well, how do we do a glass house on our map? This is how people spoke in 19 Britain 1930.
29:59
Archive footage. Archive footage. Yes. We can we can do a black seed. Yeah.
30:04
Yeah. Um and then you you undid these things because a new thing come you had to put it in there and actually your manager had to sign off. So we've got
30:10
these lovely books effectively and that really that that represent that translation of data into how do I
30:16
express that ctographically that's all gone digital now that's a fantastic opportunity for us as an organization
30:22
and actually more importantly for the whole of the country because now you can have a personalized democratized map
30:27
just for the task that you've got that day. Yeah, that's a good place to leave it. Nick, it's been great to have you on
30:33
board and covered. Thank you so much for coming in. I've really enjoyed the conversation. Thanks.
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