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Join the conversation as Kirk Franklin opens up on Sway In The Morning about faith, music, and mental health. This exclusive interview dives into Kirk's reflections on his journey with gospel music, the pressures of being a public figure, and his deep commitment to therapy and personal growth. From discussing societal challenges, survivor's remorse, and his efforts to spotlight new gospel artists, to sharing his thoughts on the intersection of faith and modern culture, Kirk delivers powerful insights. Don't miss this inspiring and candid discussion that goes beyond the music! Subscribe for more exclusive interviews and stay connected with Sway’s Universe for the latest in music, culture, and change. #KirkFranklin #SwayInTheMorning #Faith #MentalHealth #GospelMusic #ExclusiveInterviews
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CHAPTERS:
00:00 - Intro
02:45 - Embracing Black Identity
05:28 - Kirk Franklin's BET Award Win
08:02 - Therapeutic Conversations with Kirk Franklin
10:02 - Addressing Lack of Opportunities
15:25 - Kirk Franklin's Praise and Impact
20:40 - The Role of Therapy
21:00 - Finding Joy in Life
23:10 - Struggles with Perfectionism
24:50 - Approval: Man vs God
29:43 - Current State of Christianity
31:10 - Outro
37:35 - Theological Dogma and Control
Show More Show Less View Video Transcript
0:00
Big round of applause, man. I, you know, I play this man's music in my home when I want to feel great, have the be. It's
0:06
kind of music that motivates me to actually clean up.
0:12
Cleanliness is next to godliness. Next to godliness. And I feel dirty if the house ain't clean when I listening
0:18
to my brother. I don't know how many Grammys it is. Is it 20? Yeah.
0:23
Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Is that Is it more than that? No. Okay. All right. Okay. You said it like
0:28
I, you know, I tried to short change you, right? No, it just, you know, it it it just feels awkward. You know what I'm saying?
0:33
Trying to jump in on, you know, somebody saying stuff about you. It's like, yeah, you don't ever want to sound like that.
0:39
You know, you don't ever want to sound like gross. Yeah. I like that, man. My brother, man.
0:48
We got Kirk Franklin blushing right now, y'all. Look at my brother, man. I'm a black man. I don't blush. I'm a
0:54
I'm a black man. I don't blush. Black men blush, man. Don't put that on us, brother.
1:00
No, man. I got this melanin, man. I got this melanin covering up my blushing, man. Hey, man. What at what stage in your
1:06
life did you say, man? I thank God that I got this melanin,
1:11
that I'm this black man, that I am who I am. At what age did you embrace that?
1:17
Like, ah. Well, you know, man, what is very intimate, first of all, man, it's an honor always being back here with the family, man. Thank y'all for just just
1:23
even opening up the door to us. for joining us. Oh man, I'm very humbled, very just very grateful and honoring your king and I heard you speaking into
1:29
that young man's life. So man, salute to what you're doing, you know. Um is I think that as I became aware is I think
1:36
that there is an age that you're not you're not tapped into a lot of the dichotoies around you. You know
1:44
something's off. You know that there's a challenge. you know that there's a uniqueness about you and the people but but because the
1:50
marginalized communities are your norm, you're not understanding that it is not what is fair.
1:56
And then when you become of age and and when you become enlightened, then you have that illumination that there is a
2:03
distinct call. There's an distinct uh anointing, a a distinct space that
2:09
people of color have on the planet. And then when you also begin to do the the the the the
2:15
academic research to understand why you believe what you believe in and the origin of who the people were that
2:20
believed before you and the architects and Arthurs of those that that that that
2:25
illustrated and and they were part of the the the the narrative of the history
2:31
of who you are and who humans are. and you realize that you are part of that,
2:37
you are part of that space, then it gives you a deeper respect and appreciation uh in celebration of the
2:43
fact that you are black and that you are a black man. There you go. My man Kirk Franklin is
2:48
here. See how he walked into the building, HB. Love it. Come on, man. Uh Kirk, say hi to David
2:54
Weber. That's who who you sitting next to. This man is a celebrate you, kid. Celebrate. Licensed
2:59
mental health therapist. That's Yes. He comes every month on his own. He wants to help the people and he
3:05
just constantly he's like you. He's a giver, you know. And um I want to say congratulations to you. I wanted to play
3:11
a little bit of the u rain on me song with Glorilla.
3:21
You know, last time I saw Kirk, I went to the concert in DC, man. And one day I'mma tell you what that day did
3:28
for me and my daughter. Wow. you know, uh, we didn't really get to go into, but I'm going tell you one
3:33
day when when when time, you know, we have time to sit down and sip on some some high octane water or something.
3:41
Um, some Kool-Aid. Yeah, some Kool-Aid. Uh, but one of the things you said to me, and I don't even
3:47
know if you recall because I know you speak freely. You said, "Man, I'm I'm man, what do you
3:52
It's a packed house. It's sold out." Okay. And Kirk is interested in my opinion of
3:58
what do you think? What do you think of the crowd? But what do you think of the crowd? Am I reaching enough of us? Am I
4:05
Am I tapping it to the corners? Am I tapping in the alleys and the blocks as well as tapping the choirs?
4:11
Facts. I remember you saying this to me. And so when I heard that from you, it gave me just even more layer of respect
4:18
for who you are and what you do. Yeah. Uh for a number of reasons. And so when
4:23
this song with Glorella happened and you told me, man, I just like to reach to
4:28
the people who could reach to the people that need to be reached and you guys won this BET award. I want to say
4:35
congratulations. Yeah. Congratulations to you. Congratulations to Gorilla for being open enough to tap
4:42
into her faith. And you know, a lot of artists stay away from that. They don't want to talk about God. They don't want
4:49
to talk about their faith. And so I want to say thank you for doing that first and foremost because you you became a
4:56
bridge of gen you bended genres, right? Um but then there was also those in the
5:03
gospel genre who um didn't respond so favorably because they felt like it was
5:09
taking light away from some of the stuff that they had done already. Already when I talked to John Keith about it um the
5:16
artist him and Miles Minn are on the rise right now. He thought it was amazing.
5:22
You know, he's a gospel artist. He said, "What are we talking about here?" I think it's amazing. Um, you don't do it
5:29
for applauds, right? Um, does that kind of feedback matter to
5:37
you or what would you say to those who say who are from the genre, "Hey, Kirk, man, what about us? We not getting our
5:43
spotlight." Yeah. Yeah. You know, I get it, you know. Yeah. Yeah. It's I would say very much that I
5:48
totally understand. the the the dichotomy. I can totally understand that
5:54
that that that that in our genre there's not a lot of doors, there's not a lot of opportunities and when it seems like
6:01
that there is this space that you're always having to be put back, you know, is is because a year before that the
6:07
artist Tims won for for a blessed gospel artist. There was a year that I was nominated a few years back and Snoop won
6:13
and these are, you know, and and these people and celebrate them and congratulate them. um is I just know
6:19
that it's very important that when opportunities are there to bring light
6:25
onto the bigger picture, which is the some of the greatest men and women that have ever been part of of storytelling
6:32
and art and and the story of faith are gospel artists. And I wish that there was more opportunities where people can
6:38
be able to see them, hear them, and I can totally understand their frustration when they feel like that the
6:45
opportunities that they have worked hard for, they just don't get the chance. And I totally understand that. And I and and
6:51
I and I weep in that space and and I can understand the frustration. Even if it sometimes may come across where it's
6:58
coming across at me, I still receive it. Yeah. is because I want to do my part to
7:03
make sure that the light is shined back on the community and and and I and I really wish I could do more. Like I've
7:09
tried to do my own festival to try to showcase artists. I had a label once but um that when I was trying to sign
7:15
artists um when I've hosted shows like the like the the Stella Awards, there were things that I requested to be able
7:22
to showcase new artists. Um so I've I've tried I you know I want to try harder.
7:27
There's some things that I want to keep trying to do is because to whom much is given, much is required. And I really
7:33
want to be a a conduit to be able to show the world that gospel music is so
7:40
much bigger than Kirk Franklin. Yeah. That I'm only a small part of this huge
7:45
talented community that needs to be uh um highlighted, needs to be showcased,
7:51
needs to get the credit for being part of a community that the origin of black
7:56
American music started in soul, blues, and gospel. Yeah. Yeah. I love that response too cuz
8:02
Kirk still working. I wonder with David Weber here when I look at you Kirk Franklin, you know, for years you've
8:08
always had to answer questions. Yeah. Yeah.
8:13
You know, they put it all on your back, brother. I I see you do it and you do it so gracefully. Um but it's not an easy
8:21
position. He's human. Yeah. Right. He's a man like any other leader
8:26
or any anybody in history. The whole nine. He's human. Um, as a therapist,
8:33
have you dealt with people who are in positions like a Kirk Franklin who has millions of people that count on him,
8:39
that lean on him, but he also has millions that might be naysayers that come at him. Um, what kind of
8:46
conversations would do you have with a person like Kirk Franklin? Yeah. Who's
8:51
also he's a minister, you know? Well, not only as a therapist, but watching my brother, you know, at University of
8:56
Michigan with the Fab Five, watching that, watching him in the NBA, watching him go to the Hall of Fame, watching the
9:02
people naysayers say bad stuff about him, negative things about him. My personal view, that's their problem.
9:08
You can't get mad at his anointing. If he gets 20 Grammys or he everyone is coming and and giving him his due that
9:14
he's earned and y'all have an issue with that, that's your problem. It ain't his problem. So, I hear the compassion. I
9:21
hear your heart. You way more compassionate to me than me because that's their problem. It ain't your
9:28
problem. You do what you do. God gave you a gift. That gift is producing fruit and and as
9:35
a result of that fruit, you are getting awards. That ain't your fault. That's their fault. meaning meaning it's their fault
9:42
for having an issue with the awards coming to you or the awards going to Snoop or the awards going to this person
9:47
if if we're supposed to worship the Lord in spirit and in truth and so if I'm to worship him in spirit and in truth and
9:53
my and the reason that I'm doing it comes from a good place then if the war comes thank you Lord if the war don't
9:59
come thank you Lord like I'm not doing it for that I have a question for you um first of all that's very kind of you
10:07
have a question what do you do then when the doors and opportunities for such a
10:13
great and and incredibly talented community, they just continue to get
10:18
smaller and smaller smaller. Like I do believe that I do have a role to try to
10:24
be able to hear people's frustrations to be able to be u to to sympathize and
10:29
empathize. Yes. And to really try to do my part to to try to make sure that opportunities can
10:35
come to a community. What do you then say to those people who have good What
10:40
do you say to those people that have good hearts? Yes. But don't always get opportunities that
10:46
are due to them. That's tough and that's hard. But why are we doing it? You're you're in gospel
10:54
music. Why are you doing it? If you're doing it for pats on your back, then
10:59
switch genres. And so you're doing the right thing. And that's what I'm saying. I'm I'm on your
11:05
side. And I think you're being extraordinarily compassionate and understanding and kind, but I'm on I'm
11:11
I'm I'm look I'm seeing this completely different. I'm seeing this as a person who's put in the work, who's trying to
11:16
make opportunities for other people. You're doing everything you can, but that's not your burden. That's like
11:22
buying a house for a grown person and they mad because you only got me a two-bedroom house. H What are you
11:27
talking about? Are y'all mad cuz I got you a twobedroom? My bad. So if y'all
11:33
mad at y'all mad at Kurt Franklin because he's trying to put all these people on and trying to open up as many
11:39
opportunities as he can and and for some is working, for some is not. And you mad at him?
11:44
I'm I'm sorry. I I'm I'm I'm on the other side of that. I just Yeah, I'm on the other side of that.
11:49
I'm just be more concerned about my brother as a human being who has to at some point go home and when he go to the
11:57
bathroom, he's by himself. Well, just know that I have spent I have I've been
12:02
in therapy I'm 55. I've been in therapy consistently since I was 28.
12:07
God damn. That's that's 27 years. Consistently. I mean, I am consistent. I'm in therapy.
12:13
I'm in therapy at least twice a month. That's good. At least I'm talking about at the lowest
12:18
is because um a lot of times we were so built in in in the context of my faith to just pray
12:25
about it. Yeah. that when I got older and realized that I needed a little bit more than
12:30
just pray about it. Um, and that the faith without the works was not really in me the motion that I needed.
12:37
Um, and so, um, and then I have an incredible strong Christian therapist, but you know, strong PhD. So, there's
12:45
there's context there. There's gravity there. There's there's there's there's mind, body, and spirit. It's not just,
12:50
you know, somebody's uncle that's a deacon at the church that open up a new little counseling
12:56
downstairs from 7-Eleven. No, you know, you know, you know, is I really try to put the work in this because I know that
13:02
I've needed a lot of help from my own abandonment and and adoption and childhood trauma and all of that and
13:07
then religious trauma, you know, not not that Christianity is traumatic,
13:13
but there can be religious trauma, you know what I mean? Man-made ideals and dogma and doctrine. And so,
13:19
are you carrying guilt as it relates to the genre of gospel music? It sound like
13:25
you carrying something. I have Well, you know, it's I think in general, just in general, there are
13:31
times I deal with survivors remorse. Okay. Just in general, like I have a half sister who didn't get adopted.
13:38
Like I was adopted by an older woman and even the adoption was traumatic because she didn't really want me and I could
13:44
feel that in the house. She tolerated me. Um but my sister didn't get any of
13:50
that and she lived like DO say from pillar to post. Mhm. Damn. You remember that that
13:56
pillar of the post and you know and she spent many years in prison, many many years on drugs. And so even in her life,
14:02
I I sometimes have survivors remorse. I have survivors remorse on the community that I come from because everybody
14:08
didn't make it. All the homies were killed and locked up. And even sometimes in my community, I can sometimes have a
14:15
little bit of that. But but it does not negate the fact that there are some voices. Yeah.
14:20
And I'm going to keep it a buck. There are some voices that are legitimate. I'm in a genre that does not have a lot of
14:26
opportunities for all of these incredible Listen, let me tell you something. You ask your favorite R&B
14:31
singer, who's their favorite singer? Nine times 10, it's going to be a gospel artist. Going to be a gospel artist. It's going to be a gospel artist. So I
14:38
broke, bro. We can go. Come on, bro. We'll be
14:44
here all day. Donna McCuren, Marvin, you know, come on, bro. Fred Hammond. We can we can be here all day and you going to
14:50
be going ah like Yes, sir. Yes, sir. And and and the
14:56
genre needs to be celebrated. That's why I did Kirk Franklin's Praise. That's why I'm trying to do all the things that I
15:03
can do, but I just want to do everything I can uh because I believe in the
15:08
community. I believe in the younger artists. I think there's some fire younger artists coming up. And I and I I
15:13
want them to know that even if I gotta, you know, kind of step aside or whatever it is I need to do or not going to do it
15:18
harder for you, whatever it is, I won't stop. You're gonna do it. Miles Minnik, John Keith, you hear this, man. I'mma hook y'all up with Kirk if y'all ain't dead
15:24
already, man. Kirk Franklin is here and he got a world tour, right? Coming. Um Well, yeah. Got got world tour. Got
15:31
Dennis Kings. Uhhuh. Have you seen any the clips? I loved it cuz you had um Dval. Dval was
15:37
on it, too. Uh we we had Dval. We had Lou Young. We had DC Young Fly, Country Wayne, and the
15:44
response has been incredible because you got real ones up there. Country Wayne, DC Young Fly on.
15:50
I might get on, you know. Well, like every episode is every episode is new talent. It's new artist.
15:56
Like we're going to drop I'm not new Heather. Yeah, you are new. We got a new one dropping here in a few
16:02
days and it's going to be really special. You're going to love the the artist that we have. Denn Dennis Kings is based is created
16:09
why? by well what what what it was well first of all I was always told that the
16:15
way that I hold court at dinner has always inspired encouragement because I love having dinner
16:21
and just talking and just getting it in and so we we we just thought about creating a concept where that's
16:26
something I could do and so um I wanted to create a space that that people would
16:33
say that men don't tune in but men and women have tuned in to this thing and and and it's been incredible is because
16:39
the women feel like that they're getting to sneak into how men feel, think, and see. And it's engaging. And it ain't
16:46
Christianes like, you know, you know, like I ain't thought like like like we haven't talked. It's just dude.
16:52
Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's y it's everything, you know. It's you know, you
16:58
know, you know, like we pull up and we have conversation. Yeah. Yeah. I love it, man. Kirk Franklin is here,
17:04
man. And uh we celebrating a new single, Do It Again. and what you say. And I'mma let everybody else jump in, but some of
17:11
the lyrics, life being harder than it was before, these tears we cry together.
17:16
This pain it won't last forever. God is working on something for you, you know.
17:22
And that's whenever I face challenges or adversity, I tend to smile.
17:29
I already know it's a test. I've been through so many of them that it's like, "Oh, wow."
17:34
Mhm. This is this is something. There's something for me at the end of that. Wow. I love that you put that in the song. I
17:42
have a hard time convincing people that though. Really? Yeah. That this ain't happening to you,
17:47
it's happening for you. Yeah. Yeah. What What words do you give folks to convince them? Well, well, the first thing I say is I
17:53
understand. All right. Is I think that a lot of times people want you to get into the car. They want to feel like you're not afraid to get in
18:00
the car with them. A lot of times we will give direction by leaning through the window. But sometimes people feel more at peace when
18:07
we say, "Let me show you where it's at. Jump in the car." And I think that we have a culture of humanity now where
18:13
nobody jumps in the car. Everybody's going to text you the the uh directions, but nobody wants to jump in
18:19
the car. And I think that that when it comes to gospel music or people that come from a faith space, we are called
18:25
to jump in people's cars. We are we we are called to take the journey with them. And and and and I think that a lot
18:32
of times even when you just get in the car like you know as a therapist there are a lot of times like like like you
18:38
know the reason why they call psychiatrist shrinks. Why? Oh you don't know why.
18:44
The reason why because you've heard the term shrink shrink. Yeah. I got to go to my shrink. Yeah. The reason why they are called shrinks
18:50
is because their job is to minimize the issue.
18:55
That's what they do. Their job is to shrink. When you come in with something like this, yeah, their job is to shrink it,
19:02
to minimize it, so you don't see it as life ending as big. Because when you go to your therapist, every little thing's like, I'm dying. It's
19:11
just, you know, you're just losing it. Their job is to shrink it. Yeah. And then you're like, I've never thought
19:17
about it like that. So, a lot of times when you get in the car of life with people, sometimes you're just there to listen and just shrink it. And it's
19:24
like, and people look up. is like, "Oh, I arrived at my destination. I didn't die. I didn't freak out." And you're
19:30
like, "Yeah, I'm going to go get you a soda. Hold up. You'll be right back." And you good. That's the job. Because right now,
19:36
everybody from from the white I mean from political issues, financial issues to cultural issues, everybody feels like
19:42
they are dying. Yeah. And we got to shrink these problems. We got to let people know you're okay.
19:47
Breathe. Yeah. Breathe. And the best way to do that I've learned and you you jump in king is
19:54
that also the way to do it is to let them know your wounds too. Yeah.
19:59
Because if people can see that you've been through it and you're okay. The best thing to do is that when you have
20:04
cancer and when you see people that recover from cancer, that gives you encouragement. You want to be around somebody that made it through. But a lot
20:10
of times we're so busy and so prideful, we don't let people know our scars. And when you reveal your scars, it lets
20:16
people know that they don't have to be ashamed of theirs. Kirk Franklin is here. Give this man a round of applause.
20:22
New single is out now. Do it again. Um, Dinner Thieves.
20:27
Excuse me. Dinner of Thieves movie. Die.
20:33
Den of Kings. My bad. Had to be. You would have I think it's so beautiful today because
20:39
I didn't realize seeing these two brothers together how much they actually have in common. I think at first we
20:44
think you hear Kirk Franklin, you think artist, gospel artist, but it's therapy. Yeah, it's always been therapy.
20:50
Always. We know we we see David Weber first. He's a therapist, but I know you're a
20:55
man of God. And I think my question for both of you then is the balance like how do how do
21:02
you balance it all? Because it's a lot. You I'm I'm a woman of God, but I'm an artist. The work radio, television, all
21:09
of these things, sway like I think we're looking for balance. So, when you asked me today, how do you
21:14
feel? I was like, I'm at I feel peaceful today because I'm I've been working on
21:19
balance. Yeah. Just just just the balance. And I want to ask as a woman hearing it from men,
21:25
how do you balance? You go first, king. I've been running my mouth. Yeah. Um I think joy and happiness are different.
21:32
I try to find joy every day in something. That's That's tough, but I try to find it every day. I'm not always
21:39
happy, but I always have some form of joy. Yeah. Some some some form of
21:45
tangible joy, something like, you know, and gratitude, too. Gratitude is huge for people who
21:50
suffer from depression, anxiety, and those types of issues. Automatic negative thoughts. These things that
21:55
come into your head automatically negative about yourself. I'm not this, I'm not that. I wish I were taller,
22:00
bigger, whatever, more degrees, more whatever. I wish I was taller.
22:06
Hey, why you say that with Kirk? I wasn't I wasn't thinking about that. I wasn't thinking about that. I was
22:11
thinking my bad. I was triggered right there, bro. I just triggered me.
22:16
Balance. My bad. Wait. Left the road.
22:21
Hop back. I got to hop back up in the seat. I got to hop back.
22:26
But you know, like in therapy, people talk like, "I wish I was, look at the, you know, the muscles. I wish I was in shape. I wish I lost weight or
22:32
whatever." Whatever it may be. Show them, Kirk. You know what I mean? So, you know, what were you saying? What were you
22:38
saying? Right. Right. So, those are negative thoughts. And so, finding finding joy
22:44
in the midst of your negative thoughts, right? You're not going to have happiness all the time, but finding joy is key. Helps you balance.
22:50
No, that's super dope. It's because happiness has to do with what's happening. Yeah. And that's why joy is something that
22:55
doesn't need the happening to be uh something that's sustained. And I did. And and I and I I totally dig what he
23:01
said. What I learned to do in therapy is I wake up every morning and I try to say to myself, I am not perfect.
23:08
Life is not perfect. And that is okay. And that's okay. And God does not love me any less.
23:15
I try to say that every day because I'm a perfectionist. So I monitor every move I make.
23:22
I judge every move I make. Is that frustrating? Can it be? It can be. Yes. Yes. It can be daunting.
23:29
It can be exhausting. is because one thing about being an artist, you don't ever leave it at home.
23:35
Yeah. You don't ever leave your artist. Think about it. You could be at the stoplight. A song coming to stoplight. You can be
23:40
in the middle. Listen, I was one time in the middle of the bed one night when Take Me to the King came to my head. You know what I mean? I had to get up in my
23:47
little, you know, little little tidy whies and running there, you know. You know, so you know, sorry about the
23:52
visual. Sorry about the visual. I wasn't sure about that, man. Sorry about the visual. Sorry about that. Sorry about it. But that's how it
23:59
keep moving. giving away. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like like like like like like like you never lay it down. So you're always
24:06
carrying Let's let's just be candid is I do think that there is a tension that
24:12
humans live in that we have to understand that there is this there's this yin and yang. There's this dark and
24:19
light that we live in. And that's why we have to accept the imperfections of life. We we have to accept we're always
24:26
trying to fix everything that's always broken. Some things you have to live. This is what I always say to people is
24:32
that like I'm 55 years old and there are some things that I've tried to get over
24:37
that I'm still not over. And so what I've had to do is that I can't wait for some of these cracks to
24:44
heal. I've got to learn how to win wounded.
24:50
That's a clip. Let that a give that a breath. You have to learn how to win wounded. I
24:55
almost said [Â __Â ] but Kirk Well, he must say he hurt my mixtape, but that would be my Oh, that's right.
25:01
My son put out on me. Yeah. Which son? Kion. Which one? Oh. Oh, no. Not both. That better not be
25:06
both of them. Oh, okay. All right. Okay. That was amazing. U learn how to win wounded. All
25:12
right. Let's take it to We got Let's go to New York. Tracy. Yeah. My goodness, Kirk. Love you. You
25:18
are such a gift. Love you too, Queen. Yeah. But when you just mentioned um tension and it makes me think anyone
25:25
who's in the spotlight, there can be a tension between say your public persona
25:30
and your spiritual self, right? Trying to fill in the gaps between maybe um
25:35
like man's approval and God's approval. And there can be harmony in that, but
25:41
oftent times there is divide. And I'm wondering since you just gave us I wrote down like that affirmation for um
25:47
perfectionism, but it made me really curious to ask you, what would you say
25:53
are the parts of yourself that God cherishes that the world probably
25:59
doesn't see? It's that I am I am um
26:08
I am ferocious. I am I am intentional. I
26:14
am fierce in my pursuit of wanting to make him happy.
26:21
Like it is a diligent, deep pursuit. Like when I'm not around people, I'm at
26:27
the park. I'm walking by the river. I'm spending time trying to pray, trying to hear. I'm like like I spend a lot of
26:33
time by myself. I spend a lot of time by myself. And and in that I'm always
26:39
trying to hear, trying to read, trying to pray, trying to have conversation. And I've been like that since I was a
26:44
little boy. Since I was a little boy. Is because I didn't have siblings. I didn't have relatives. I didn't have cousins. Like I lived a very lone life. It was
26:51
just me and the lady that adopted me my whole life. So it was me and an older lady living in a house. All I had was a raggedy piano.
26:57
That's all I had. And so this this this this type of solitude I built like I say
27:03
to people that Jesus had my heart before he had my soul. So before I came before
27:09
I became born again, I was already a fan of Jesus because he was like my childhood playmate,
27:15
you know, you know, like like like you know you know well well yeah and and and a lot of that
27:21
was because of necessity, not because I was so spiritual. It's because you know I needed a playmate as a little kid and
27:27
you know and and Gertu, the lady adopted me, she would always be in church talking about Jesus. So I'm like okay
27:33
well Jesus gonna be my friend you know my friend. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so these are the things I think people
27:38
don't really is because I do so much crazy stuff. Sometimes people see me moving around and jumping and dancing and acting wild. They don't a lot of
27:46
times I think that the sincerity of my heart for the Lord at times can get messed is because you know what I'm
27:51
having to deal with, queen? I'm having to deal with for the first time in our society
27:57
cell phones. Yeah. I'm now having to deal with the fact that I'm always having to be on.
28:03
And there was a big part of my career that I wasn't on. Like in the 90s, I wasn't on. So like when Stomp came out,
28:10
you didn't know if I was crying or, you know, if I was depressed. You didn't know if I was, you know, still having
28:15
problems with with with some type of, you know, saying issue in my life because there was no phone to catch
28:21
Kirk. So now that there are phones, if I'm having fun or laughing at something, now it could be judged. If I'm having fun on
28:27
stage, it's like, "Oh, he twerk." And it was like, "No, I was just having fun with one of my first." I was acting stupid. Like, it wasn't even a good
28:33
twerk. It was It was like, it was a horrible I didn't want to say nothing, but
28:38
It wasn't even a good twerk. It wasn't even an attempt to Yeah. Yeah. It was a teen twerk.
28:45
It was a Kirk. It was It wasn't a twerk. It was a cur.
28:51
It was a curtain. It was It was It was not a It wasn't I was just having
28:58
fun with one of my sisters on stage because we have so much fun off stage, right? You know me. I know
29:04
I'm a fool and funny anywhere I am. People are not used to that. people are used to their spiritual leaders being
29:10
docile and you know very you know you know and so the image you had of me before the cell phone is that you know
29:16
oh he's such a and it's like I'm a kid I'm young and I'm you know still living
29:22
it out man yeah so these are the things that people don't realize is that it is not easy
29:27
growing can you imagine if every person had to grow in their faith with their mic on
29:33
man come on with your mic on your you you trying to growing your faith and every day your
29:39
mic is on. Yeah. Come on, man. Kirk Franklin, man. This man is human. You brought your family with you, right?
29:45
Who you got here with? Oh, no, man. These just my people, man. That's my son over there in the corner. I'm being funny too big.
29:51
No, no, cuz it ain't your son. No, man. These just my people that work with me, man. Yeah.
29:58
All right. All right. I always like to acknowledge the people in the room, man. You know, cuz they got a lot to do with
30:03
the person on the mic, right? And so, um, shout out to Brandon, man. That's my
30:08
boy. That's my hero right there, man. How much you bench pressing now, bro? It look like got a little more swole, dog. Pause. But you know what I
30:16
mean. You know, I can't hear you. What did you say? How much you bench pressing now? My mic is not working well. What? Hold on.
30:22
Kirk, I can see the growth, man. Like, I can see the work, you know. Oh, man. Just glory to God, brother.
30:28
Just I give you the church answer. I give you the church answer. Oh, just glory to God, brother.
30:34
the church in some churches. I think he can 300 300 lb. All right. Uh Mike, you
30:40
want to jump in? That's my guy right there, boy. That's my guy right there. Do you follow him on Instagram?
30:46
No, you got to follow him on Instagram, Kirk. Really? Why? But you would have saw him in San Trope
30:52
last week. That's the homie. You would have saw him in a tribal ceremony celebrating food.
30:59
Did you have like the little uh speedos on? Like did you do like were you down there?
31:04
Were you doing were you down there showing out? Oh, I was definitely dancing on tables but not in speedos.
31:11
All right, man. Go ahead, Mike. Kirk, it's always good to see you, brother. Uh, always makes me smile.
31:18
Always enjoy our conversations. Um, I love the new single. I do it again, but just a point of personal reference.
31:24
Bless me still has me in a choke cold. So, um, with Maverick City, the one that you did, but just FYI. Um the question I
31:30
have for you though is I'm curious and I've been thinking about you in the sense of what is your thoughts on uh the
31:36
state and brand of Christianity. Um in particular as we look at what's happening with the evangelical church um
31:43
engagement with politics um as you look at the membership decreasing in churches
31:49
on Sundays um and if you look at the lack of or possibly in the engagement what civil rights and what the black
31:55
church used uh to be and the role that it had. And so I'm I'm just curious from you like what is the state of
32:00
Christianity right now and the brand of Christianity is it taking a hit? Well, you know that I love those questions and and I I think you know me
32:07
well enough to know that I don't shy away from those questions. I'm very intentional. First thing I want to do is I want to celebrate
32:12
there are some new voices that that that that on horizon that are that are that
32:18
are incredible. Philip Anthony Mitchell, Darius Daniels, um um um oh man, what's
32:24
the guy that just spoke at my church? um Mason uh um there's a guy name Eric Mason there there's there's some great
32:30
voices uh uh Charlie Dates out of Chicago there's some young voices that
32:37
are doing it they are killing it and they are intentional and so I believe
32:43
that uh uh scriptur is true that God will never leave himself without a witness the text says and I think that
32:48
that a lot of the falling off can also be good because it also lets you know
32:54
who the real ones are. It lets you know who the real soldiers are because a lot of times the spectators can kind of get
33:00
in the way of the real voice getting in in the ears and in the hands and the hearts of those that are really want to
33:05
put their lives on the line. And so um I am extremely disappointed with with uh
33:11
with white nationalism that is birthed out of the evangelical community in America is I think that we have to uh
33:17
also address those issues because if not it becomes across it comes across very duplicitous that um the origin and the
33:24
history of western Christianity in America has not been always the most beneficial for people of color. And I
33:29
and I think that we continue we continue to live in that um that tension that
33:35
that that that the that the weapon
33:41
that damaged us is now the redemption that saves us. And so we have to uh be
33:47
honest about that. We have to deconstruct it at times. Um but I still believe that the message I still believe
33:53
in in in the beautifification of the church. Think about it. the a church uh
33:58
in history was is what birthed hospitals. The uh church is what also birthed universities in America. Um uh
34:05
um a a lot of the um the philanthropy that that that came into H.B.CU in those
34:12
communities were coming out of men and women that were that were in the space of um that was in the space of faith. So
34:20
we've we we see the civil rights movement the civil rights movement in America was birthed out of the church.
34:25
So, we've seen the church um do some incredible work while at the same time there has been a lot of uh um challenges
34:35
and spaces that need to be addressed. But I still believe in her message. I
34:40
still believe in her heart and I still believe that the good news is available for anyone that will choose to get
34:47
through all the BS, all the dogma, all the doctrine. We must acknowledge our mistakes. We must address the sins of
34:54
the of of of Western Christianity and to realize one important space. Western
35:00
Christianity and the teachings of Jesus Christ are not synonymous. Yeah. Say that again.
35:06
Western Christianity and the teachings of Jesus Christ. I'm talking about the Middle Eastern Jesus. Not the one that look like the BGS.
35:12
Yeah. Okay. Not that. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Not the one that look like Barry Kim. Not the one that like Barry Kim.
35:19
But but yeah, I'm I'm I'm kind of leave that alone. So yeah, but the teachings of Jesus Christ and Western
35:26
Christianity, they are not synonymous. Mhm. So when when did you realize that uh
35:32
believe that you know realize Jesus Christ wasn't this blond blue-eyed um
35:37
portrait that we tend to see scholarship when when I started to when I started to
35:42
pursue academia when I started to have when I started to bring uh when I started to bring intellect and
35:49
understanding into my Christian faith what started happening about 20 years ago my my Christian faith started to be tested very very much outside of the
35:56
church because a lot of times when you're raised in church. Everything about church is right. Everything you hear, you just lean into even when you
36:01
don't understand. Well, when I started to live more outside of that space and there was um there was a lot of
36:07
historical challenges, there was a lot of uh context challenges that I could
36:12
not answer. It started this journey for me to bring a a a lot of uh uh
36:20
intellectual historical u and archaeological understanding about the u
36:27
historical truth of the historical Jesus that that brought more gravity to my
36:32
faith. Yeah. Is that Europe did not influence Africa. Africa influenced Europe
36:38
and this is three centuries before Constantine. Mhm. And so these are the things that gave me
36:44
gravity to be okay. Well, I can put my hope in this. This is not this is not
36:49
the weaponized version that Western Christianity taught me. But the historical truth is that Augustine, the
36:55
Tertilian, these were uh in Alexander these were men of color. Yes. That the first church was in Alexander
37:03
uh uh Mark's church was in North Africa. That the disciple Mark started his
37:08
church in North Africa. That's not Europe. as Africa. And so these truths, but at the same time, let's not also get
37:14
it twisted. This gospel is for everybody. It's for everybody, right? It's for everybody. Everybody can pull up. We just realize that the way we were
37:21
taught to hate ourselves was the lie. That that that that we were the architects of even the faith that we
37:27
believed. That's why we believe it so much because we were in it. Yeah, man. Kirk Franklin, man, give this
37:32
man a round of applause. Yes. So, um Oh, Mike, my bad. That's okay. Kirk, if I can go back uh
37:38
and follow up with you with that part that you talked about. So, I like where you were going when you said um the the
37:44
the Jesus of that test or time period is different than it's not synonymous with
37:49
western um Christianity. Are you talking about the dogma and how the church has created dogmatic dynamics to uh the
37:57
original teachings of Jesus? Is that what you are are saying? Yes. Yes. Exactly. Even when you look at
38:02
theology and when you looked at even when you look at doctrine, doctrine is nothing but um man's man's systems of
38:10
trying to be able to communicate and articulate um the the uh text that when
38:16
when you look at cannon of scripture and and you look at the early fathers of the faith, they were creating doctrines and
38:22
dogmas. But a lot of these doctrines and dogma also had to do with control. Mhm. They were trying to control the habits
38:29
and the ways and the executions of human behavior, whether it was sexuality, whether it was giving, whether whether it was trying to
38:36
have these monotheistic ideals or or or trying to make monotheistic ideals monolithic.
38:41
And so when you look at all of the origins of controlling humankind, it came from dogma. It came from doctrine.
38:49
where when you look at the teachings of Jesus Christ and when you look at the heart of the matter of the gospels, it
38:55
is about if you're sick and if you're hurting, there's no way that I can be well when my brother's still sick and
39:01
hurting. Yeah. Period. And then and so for you to see,
39:07
let me let me say like this. If every church in America during segregation
39:12
would have said that slavery is a sin, slavery would have never existed in America.
39:18
Yeah. Slavery could have never existed in America if every Bible reading I
39:23
don't know what Bible they were reading I don't know what Bible they were using but if every Bible believing church
39:30
during the 19th 18th century would have would would have collectively said that
39:36
slavery is a sin slavery would have never existed in America because child slavery I'm I'm not
39:43
talking about historically because we know that in Egypt there were there were there were different forms of slavery where you pay your way out. But I'm
39:49
talking about this thing that disrupted and dismantled humans from their family, from their thinking, from their from
39:56
their well-being, from their mental health. Yeah. That if we would have collectively, if Christians collective would have said
40:02
slavery is a sin, it would have never existed in America. Because that's how much power the church
40:09
had in Western America. Kirk Franklin, citizens, uh, this is
40:14
seemed like a convers. I love where this just went. Thank you, Kirk Franklin. I appreciate you, brother.
40:21
Thank you. How much you bench pressing on, bro? Wow. You back to that this jealousy you
40:27
leaning on. Cut up right there. Is I bench press is I bench press the devil.
40:34
He on fire today.
40:39
He walked out. He walked out the room. Oh my god, man. I love my brother. Thank
40:46
you Kirk Franklin for coming by. David Weber out.
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