Kirk Franklin Talks Faith, Music, and Mental Health 🎤 | SWAY’S UNIVERSE

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Big round of applause, man. I, you know, I play this man's music in my home when I want to feel great, have the be. It's
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kind of music that motivates me to actually clean up.
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Cleanliness is next to godliness. Next to godliness. And I feel dirty if the house ain't clean when I listening
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to my brother. I don't know how many Grammys it is. Is it 20? Yeah.
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Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Is that Is it more than that? No. Okay. All right. Okay. You said it like
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I, you know, I tried to short change you, right? No, it just, you know, it it it just feels awkward. You know what I'm saying?
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Trying to jump in on, you know, somebody saying stuff about you. It's like, yeah, you don't ever want to sound like that.
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You know, you don't ever want to sound like gross. Yeah. I like that, man. My brother, man.
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We got Kirk Franklin blushing right now, y'all. Look at my brother, man. I'm a black man. I don't blush. I'm a
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I'm a black man. I don't blush. Black men blush, man. Don't put that on us, brother.
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No, man. I got this melanin, man. I got this melanin covering up my blushing, man. Hey, man. What at what stage in your
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life did you say, man? I thank God that I got this melanin,
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that I'm this black man, that I am who I am. At what age did you embrace that?
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Like, ah. Well, you know, man, what is very intimate, first of all, man, it's an honor always being back here with the family, man. Thank y'all for just just
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even opening up the door to us. for joining us. Oh man, I'm very humbled, very just very grateful and honoring your king and I heard you speaking into
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that young man's life. So man, salute to what you're doing, you know. Um is I think that as I became aware is I think
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that there is an age that you're not you're not tapped into a lot of the dichotoies around you. You know
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something's off. You know that there's a challenge. you know that there's a uniqueness about you and the people but but because the
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marginalized communities are your norm, you're not understanding that it is not what is fair.
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And then when you become of age and and when you become enlightened, then you have that illumination that there is a
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distinct call. There's an distinct uh anointing, a a distinct space that
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people of color have on the planet. And then when you also begin to do the the the the the
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academic research to understand why you believe what you believe in and the origin of who the people were that
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believed before you and the architects and Arthurs of those that that that that
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illustrated and and they were part of the the the the narrative of the history
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of who you are and who humans are. and you realize that you are part of that,
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you are part of that space, then it gives you a deeper respect and appreciation uh in celebration of the
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fact that you are black and that you are a black man. There you go. My man Kirk Franklin is
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here. See how he walked into the building, HB. Love it. Come on, man. Uh Kirk, say hi to David
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Weber. That's who who you sitting next to. This man is a celebrate you, kid. Celebrate. Licensed
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mental health therapist. That's Yes. He comes every month on his own. He wants to help the people and he
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just constantly he's like you. He's a giver, you know. And um I want to say congratulations to you. I wanted to play
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a little bit of the u rain on me song with Glorilla.
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You know, last time I saw Kirk, I went to the concert in DC, man. And one day I'mma tell you what that day did
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for me and my daughter. Wow. you know, uh, we didn't really get to go into, but I'm going tell you one
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day when when when time, you know, we have time to sit down and sip on some some high octane water or something.
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Um, some Kool-Aid. Yeah, some Kool-Aid. Uh, but one of the things you said to me, and I don't even
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know if you recall because I know you speak freely. You said, "Man, I'm I'm man, what do you
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It's a packed house. It's sold out." Okay. And Kirk is interested in my opinion of
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what do you think? What do you think of the crowd? But what do you think of the crowd? Am I reaching enough of us? Am I
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Am I tapping it to the corners? Am I tapping in the alleys and the blocks as well as tapping the choirs?
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Facts. I remember you saying this to me. And so when I heard that from you, it gave me just even more layer of respect
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for who you are and what you do. Yeah. Uh for a number of reasons. And so when
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this song with Glorella happened and you told me, man, I just like to reach to
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the people who could reach to the people that need to be reached and you guys won this BET award. I want to say
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congratulations. Yeah. Congratulations to you. Congratulations to Gorilla for being open enough to tap
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into her faith. And you know, a lot of artists stay away from that. They don't want to talk about God. They don't want
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to talk about their faith. And so I want to say thank you for doing that first and foremost because you you became a
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bridge of gen you bended genres, right? Um but then there was also those in the
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gospel genre who um didn't respond so favorably because they felt like it was
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taking light away from some of the stuff that they had done already. Already when I talked to John Keith about it um the
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artist him and Miles Minn are on the rise right now. He thought it was amazing.
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You know, he's a gospel artist. He said, "What are we talking about here?" I think it's amazing. Um, you don't do it
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for applauds, right? Um, does that kind of feedback matter to
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you or what would you say to those who say who are from the genre, "Hey, Kirk, man, what about us? We not getting our
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spotlight." Yeah. Yeah. You know, I get it, you know. Yeah. Yeah. It's I would say very much that I
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totally understand. the the the dichotomy. I can totally understand that
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that that that that in our genre there's not a lot of doors, there's not a lot of opportunities and when it seems like
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that there is this space that you're always having to be put back, you know, is is because a year before that the
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artist Tims won for for a blessed gospel artist. There was a year that I was nominated a few years back and Snoop won
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and these are, you know, and and these people and celebrate them and congratulate them. um is I just know
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that it's very important that when opportunities are there to bring light
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onto the bigger picture, which is the some of the greatest men and women that have ever been part of of storytelling
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and art and and the story of faith are gospel artists. And I wish that there was more opportunities where people can
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be able to see them, hear them, and I can totally understand their frustration when they feel like that the
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opportunities that they have worked hard for, they just don't get the chance. And I totally understand that. And I and and
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I and I weep in that space and and I can understand the frustration. Even if it sometimes may come across where it's
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coming across at me, I still receive it. Yeah. is because I want to do my part to
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make sure that the light is shined back on the community and and and I and I really wish I could do more. Like I've
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tried to do my own festival to try to showcase artists. I had a label once but um that when I was trying to sign
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artists um when I've hosted shows like the like the the Stella Awards, there were things that I requested to be able
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to showcase new artists. Um so I've I've tried I you know I want to try harder.
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There's some things that I want to keep trying to do is because to whom much is given, much is required. And I really
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want to be a a conduit to be able to show the world that gospel music is so
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much bigger than Kirk Franklin. Yeah. That I'm only a small part of this huge
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talented community that needs to be uh um highlighted, needs to be showcased,
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needs to get the credit for being part of a community that the origin of black
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American music started in soul, blues, and gospel. Yeah. Yeah. I love that response too cuz
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Kirk still working. I wonder with David Weber here when I look at you Kirk Franklin, you know, for years you've
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always had to answer questions. Yeah. Yeah.
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You know, they put it all on your back, brother. I I see you do it and you do it so gracefully. Um but it's not an easy
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position. He's human. Yeah. Right. He's a man like any other leader
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or any anybody in history. The whole nine. He's human. Um, as a therapist,
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have you dealt with people who are in positions like a Kirk Franklin who has millions of people that count on him,
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that lean on him, but he also has millions that might be naysayers that come at him. Um, what kind of
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conversations would do you have with a person like Kirk Franklin? Yeah. Who's
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also he's a minister, you know? Well, not only as a therapist, but watching my brother, you know, at University of
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Michigan with the Fab Five, watching that, watching him in the NBA, watching him go to the Hall of Fame, watching the
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people naysayers say bad stuff about him, negative things about him. My personal view, that's their problem.
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You can't get mad at his anointing. If he gets 20 Grammys or he everyone is coming and and giving him his due that
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he's earned and y'all have an issue with that, that's your problem. It ain't his problem. So, I hear the compassion. I
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hear your heart. You way more compassionate to me than me because that's their problem. It ain't your
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problem. You do what you do. God gave you a gift. That gift is producing fruit and and as
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a result of that fruit, you are getting awards. That ain't your fault. That's their fault. meaning meaning it's their fault
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for having an issue with the awards coming to you or the awards going to Snoop or the awards going to this person
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if if we're supposed to worship the Lord in spirit and in truth and so if I'm to worship him in spirit and in truth and
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my and the reason that I'm doing it comes from a good place then if the war comes thank you Lord if the war don't
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come thank you Lord like I'm not doing it for that I have a question for you um first of all that's very kind of you
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have a question what do you do then when the doors and opportunities for such a
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great and and incredibly talented community, they just continue to get
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smaller and smaller smaller. Like I do believe that I do have a role to try to
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be able to hear people's frustrations to be able to be u to to sympathize and
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empathize. Yes. And to really try to do my part to to try to make sure that opportunities can
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come to a community. What do you then say to those people who have good What
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do you say to those people that have good hearts? Yes. But don't always get opportunities that
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are due to them. That's tough and that's hard. But why are we doing it? You're you're in gospel
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music. Why are you doing it? If you're doing it for pats on your back, then
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switch genres. And so you're doing the right thing. And that's what I'm saying. I'm I'm on your
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side. And I think you're being extraordinarily compassionate and understanding and kind, but I'm on I'm
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I'm I'm look I'm seeing this completely different. I'm seeing this as a person who's put in the work, who's trying to
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make opportunities for other people. You're doing everything you can, but that's not your burden. That's like
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buying a house for a grown person and they mad because you only got me a two-bedroom house. H What are you
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talking about? Are y'all mad cuz I got you a twobedroom? My bad. So if y'all
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mad at y'all mad at Kurt Franklin because he's trying to put all these people on and trying to open up as many
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opportunities as he can and and for some is working, for some is not. And you mad at him?
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I'm I'm sorry. I I'm I'm I'm on the other side of that. I just Yeah, I'm on the other side of that.
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I'm just be more concerned about my brother as a human being who has to at some point go home and when he go to the
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bathroom, he's by himself. Well, just know that I have spent I have I've been
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in therapy I'm 55. I've been in therapy consistently since I was 28.
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God damn. That's that's 27 years. Consistently. I mean, I am consistent. I'm in therapy.
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I'm in therapy at least twice a month. That's good. At least I'm talking about at the lowest
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is because um a lot of times we were so built in in in the context of my faith to just pray
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about it. Yeah. that when I got older and realized that I needed a little bit more than
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just pray about it. Um, and that the faith without the works was not really in me the motion that I needed.
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Um, and so, um, and then I have an incredible strong Christian therapist, but you know, strong PhD. So, there's
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there's context there. There's gravity there. There's there's there's there's mind, body, and spirit. It's not just,
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you know, somebody's uncle that's a deacon at the church that open up a new little counseling
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downstairs from 7-Eleven. No, you know, you know, you know, is I really try to put the work in this because I know that
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I've needed a lot of help from my own abandonment and and adoption and childhood trauma and all of that and
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then religious trauma, you know, not not that Christianity is traumatic,
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but there can be religious trauma, you know what I mean? Man-made ideals and dogma and doctrine. And so,
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are you carrying guilt as it relates to the genre of gospel music? It sound like
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you carrying something. I have Well, you know, it's I think in general, just in general, there are
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times I deal with survivors remorse. Okay. Just in general, like I have a half sister who didn't get adopted.
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Like I was adopted by an older woman and even the adoption was traumatic because she didn't really want me and I could
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feel that in the house. She tolerated me. Um but my sister didn't get any of
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that and she lived like DO say from pillar to post. Mhm. Damn. You remember that that
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pillar of the post and you know and she spent many years in prison, many many years on drugs. And so even in her life,
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I I sometimes have survivors remorse. I have survivors remorse on the community that I come from because everybody
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didn't make it. All the homies were killed and locked up. And even sometimes in my community, I can sometimes have a
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little bit of that. But but it does not negate the fact that there are some voices. Yeah.
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And I'm going to keep it a buck. There are some voices that are legitimate. I'm in a genre that does not have a lot of
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opportunities for all of these incredible Listen, let me tell you something. You ask your favorite R&B
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singer, who's their favorite singer? Nine times 10, it's going to be a gospel artist. Going to be a gospel artist. It's going to be a gospel artist. So I
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broke, bro. We can go. Come on, bro. We'll be
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here all day. Donna McCuren, Marvin, you know, come on, bro. Fred Hammond. We can we can be here all day and you going to
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be going ah like Yes, sir. Yes, sir. And and and the
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genre needs to be celebrated. That's why I did Kirk Franklin's Praise. That's why I'm trying to do all the things that I
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can do, but I just want to do everything I can uh because I believe in the
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community. I believe in the younger artists. I think there's some fire younger artists coming up. And I and I I
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want them to know that even if I gotta, you know, kind of step aside or whatever it is I need to do or not going to do it
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harder for you, whatever it is, I won't stop. You're gonna do it. Miles Minnik, John Keith, you hear this, man. I'mma hook y'all up with Kirk if y'all ain't dead
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already, man. Kirk Franklin is here and he got a world tour, right? Coming. Um Well, yeah. Got got world tour. Got
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Dennis Kings. Uhhuh. Have you seen any the clips? I loved it cuz you had um Dval. Dval was
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on it, too. Uh we we had Dval. We had Lou Young. We had DC Young Fly, Country Wayne, and the
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response has been incredible because you got real ones up there. Country Wayne, DC Young Fly on.
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I might get on, you know. Well, like every episode is every episode is new talent. It's new artist.
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Like we're going to drop I'm not new Heather. Yeah, you are new. We got a new one dropping here in a few
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days and it's going to be really special. You're going to love the the artist that we have. Denn Dennis Kings is based is created
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why? by well what what what it was well first of all I was always told that the
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way that I hold court at dinner has always inspired encouragement because I love having dinner
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and just talking and just getting it in and so we we we just thought about creating a concept where that's
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something I could do and so um I wanted to create a space that that people would
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say that men don't tune in but men and women have tuned in to this thing and and and it's been incredible is because
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the women feel like that they're getting to sneak into how men feel, think, and see. And it's engaging. And it ain't
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Christianes like, you know, you know, like I ain't thought like like like we haven't talked. It's just dude.
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Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's y it's everything, you know. It's you know, you
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know, you know, like we pull up and we have conversation. Yeah. Yeah. I love it, man. Kirk Franklin is here,
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man. And uh we celebrating a new single, Do It Again. and what you say. And I'mma let everybody else jump in, but some of
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the lyrics, life being harder than it was before, these tears we cry together.
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This pain it won't last forever. God is working on something for you, you know.
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And that's whenever I face challenges or adversity, I tend to smile.
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I already know it's a test. I've been through so many of them that it's like, "Oh, wow."
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Mhm. This is this is something. There's something for me at the end of that. Wow. I love that you put that in the song. I
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have a hard time convincing people that though. Really? Yeah. That this ain't happening to you,
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it's happening for you. Yeah. Yeah. What What words do you give folks to convince them? Well, well, the first thing I say is I
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understand. All right. Is I think that a lot of times people want you to get into the car. They want to feel like you're not afraid to get in
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the car with them. A lot of times we will give direction by leaning through the window. But sometimes people feel more at peace when
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we say, "Let me show you where it's at. Jump in the car." And I think that we have a culture of humanity now where
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nobody jumps in the car. Everybody's going to text you the the uh directions, but nobody wants to jump in
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the car. And I think that that when it comes to gospel music or people that come from a faith space, we are called
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to jump in people's cars. We are we we are called to take the journey with them. And and and and I think that a lot
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of times even when you just get in the car like you know as a therapist there are a lot of times like like like you
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know the reason why they call psychiatrist shrinks. Why? Oh you don't know why.
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The reason why because you've heard the term shrink shrink. Yeah. I got to go to my shrink. Yeah. The reason why they are called shrinks
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is because their job is to minimize the issue.
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That's what they do. Their job is to shrink. When you come in with something like this, yeah, their job is to shrink it,
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to minimize it, so you don't see it as life ending as big. Because when you go to your therapist, every little thing's like, I'm dying. It's
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just, you know, you're just losing it. Their job is to shrink it. Yeah. And then you're like, I've never thought
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about it like that. So, a lot of times when you get in the car of life with people, sometimes you're just there to listen and just shrink it. And it's
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like, and people look up. is like, "Oh, I arrived at my destination. I didn't die. I didn't freak out." And you're
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like, "Yeah, I'm going to go get you a soda. Hold up. You'll be right back." And you good. That's the job. Because right now,
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everybody from from the white I mean from political issues, financial issues to cultural issues, everybody feels like
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they are dying. Yeah. And we got to shrink these problems. We got to let people know you're okay.
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Breathe. Yeah. Breathe. And the best way to do that I've learned and you you jump in king is
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that also the way to do it is to let them know your wounds too. Yeah.
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Because if people can see that you've been through it and you're okay. The best thing to do is that when you have
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cancer and when you see people that recover from cancer, that gives you encouragement. You want to be around somebody that made it through. But a lot
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of times we're so busy and so prideful, we don't let people know our scars. And when you reveal your scars, it lets
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people know that they don't have to be ashamed of theirs. Kirk Franklin is here. Give this man a round of applause.
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New single is out now. Do it again. Um, Dinner Thieves.
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Excuse me. Dinner of Thieves movie. Die.
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Den of Kings. My bad. Had to be. You would have I think it's so beautiful today because
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I didn't realize seeing these two brothers together how much they actually have in common. I think at first we
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think you hear Kirk Franklin, you think artist, gospel artist, but it's therapy. Yeah, it's always been therapy.
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Always. We know we we see David Weber first. He's a therapist, but I know you're a
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man of God. And I think my question for both of you then is the balance like how do how do
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you balance it all? Because it's a lot. You I'm I'm a woman of God, but I'm an artist. The work radio, television, all
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of these things, sway like I think we're looking for balance. So, when you asked me today, how do you
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feel? I was like, I'm at I feel peaceful today because I'm I've been working on
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balance. Yeah. Just just just the balance. And I want to ask as a woman hearing it from men,
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how do you balance? You go first, king. I've been running my mouth. Yeah. Um I think joy and happiness are different.
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I try to find joy every day in something. That's That's tough, but I try to find it every day. I'm not always
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happy, but I always have some form of joy. Yeah. Some some some form of
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tangible joy, something like, you know, and gratitude, too. Gratitude is huge for people who
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suffer from depression, anxiety, and those types of issues. Automatic negative thoughts. These things that
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come into your head automatically negative about yourself. I'm not this, I'm not that. I wish I were taller,
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bigger, whatever, more degrees, more whatever. I wish I was taller.
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Hey, why you say that with Kirk? I wasn't I wasn't thinking about that. I wasn't thinking about that. I was
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thinking my bad. I was triggered right there, bro. I just triggered me.
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Balance. My bad. Wait. Left the road.
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Hop back. I got to hop back up in the seat. I got to hop back.
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But you know, like in therapy, people talk like, "I wish I was, look at the, you know, the muscles. I wish I was in shape. I wish I lost weight or
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whatever." Whatever it may be. Show them, Kirk. You know what I mean? So, you know, what were you saying? What were you
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saying? Right. Right. So, those are negative thoughts. And so, finding finding joy
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in the midst of your negative thoughts, right? You're not going to have happiness all the time, but finding joy is key. Helps you balance.
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No, that's super dope. It's because happiness has to do with what's happening. Yeah. And that's why joy is something that
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doesn't need the happening to be uh something that's sustained. And I did. And and I and I I totally dig what he
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said. What I learned to do in therapy is I wake up every morning and I try to say to myself, I am not perfect.
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Life is not perfect. And that is okay. And that's okay. And God does not love me any less.
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I try to say that every day because I'm a perfectionist. So I monitor every move I make.
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I judge every move I make. Is that frustrating? Can it be? It can be. Yes. Yes. It can be daunting.
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It can be exhausting. is because one thing about being an artist, you don't ever leave it at home.
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Yeah. You don't ever leave your artist. Think about it. You could be at the stoplight. A song coming to stoplight. You can be
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in the middle. Listen, I was one time in the middle of the bed one night when Take Me to the King came to my head. You know what I mean? I had to get up in my
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little, you know, little little tidy whies and running there, you know. You know, so you know, sorry about the
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visual. Sorry about the visual. I wasn't sure about that, man. Sorry about the visual. Sorry about that. Sorry about it. But that's how it
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keep moving. giving away. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like like like like like like like you never lay it down. So you're always
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carrying Let's let's just be candid is I do think that there is a tension that
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humans live in that we have to understand that there is this there's this yin and yang. There's this dark and
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light that we live in. And that's why we have to accept the imperfections of life. We we have to accept we're always
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trying to fix everything that's always broken. Some things you have to live. This is what I always say to people is
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that like I'm 55 years old and there are some things that I've tried to get over
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that I'm still not over. And so what I've had to do is that I can't wait for some of these cracks to
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heal. I've got to learn how to win wounded.
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That's a clip. Let that a give that a breath. You have to learn how to win wounded. I
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almost said [ __ ] but Kirk Well, he must say he hurt my mixtape, but that would be my Oh, that's right.
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My son put out on me. Yeah. Which son? Kion. Which one? Oh. Oh, no. Not both. That better not be
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both of them. Oh, okay. All right. Okay. That was amazing. U learn how to win wounded. All
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right. Let's take it to We got Let's go to New York. Tracy. Yeah. My goodness, Kirk. Love you. You
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are such a gift. Love you too, Queen. Yeah. But when you just mentioned um tension and it makes me think anyone
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who's in the spotlight, there can be a tension between say your public persona
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and your spiritual self, right? Trying to fill in the gaps between maybe um
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like man's approval and God's approval. And there can be harmony in that, but
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oftent times there is divide. And I'm wondering since you just gave us I wrote down like that affirmation for um
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perfectionism, but it made me really curious to ask you, what would you say
25:53
are the parts of yourself that God cherishes that the world probably
25:59
doesn't see? It's that I am I am um
26:08
I am ferocious. I am I am intentional. I
26:14
am fierce in my pursuit of wanting to make him happy.
26:21
Like it is a diligent, deep pursuit. Like when I'm not around people, I'm at
26:27
the park. I'm walking by the river. I'm spending time trying to pray, trying to hear. I'm like like I spend a lot of
26:33
time by myself. I spend a lot of time by myself. And and in that I'm always
26:39
trying to hear, trying to read, trying to pray, trying to have conversation. And I've been like that since I was a
26:44
little boy. Since I was a little boy. Is because I didn't have siblings. I didn't have relatives. I didn't have cousins. Like I lived a very lone life. It was
26:51
just me and the lady that adopted me my whole life. So it was me and an older lady living in a house. All I had was a raggedy piano.
26:57
That's all I had. And so this this this this type of solitude I built like I say
27:03
to people that Jesus had my heart before he had my soul. So before I came before
27:09
I became born again, I was already a fan of Jesus because he was like my childhood playmate,
27:15
you know, you know, like like like you know you know well well yeah and and and a lot of that
27:21
was because of necessity, not because I was so spiritual. It's because you know I needed a playmate as a little kid and
27:27
you know and and Gertu, the lady adopted me, she would always be in church talking about Jesus. So I'm like okay
27:33
well Jesus gonna be my friend you know my friend. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so these are the things I think people
27:38
don't really is because I do so much crazy stuff. Sometimes people see me moving around and jumping and dancing and acting wild. They don't a lot of
27:46
times I think that the sincerity of my heart for the Lord at times can get messed is because you know what I'm
27:51
having to deal with, queen? I'm having to deal with for the first time in our society
27:57
cell phones. Yeah. I'm now having to deal with the fact that I'm always having to be on.
28:03
And there was a big part of my career that I wasn't on. Like in the 90s, I wasn't on. So like when Stomp came out,
28:10
you didn't know if I was crying or, you know, if I was depressed. You didn't know if I was, you know, still having
28:15
problems with with with some type of, you know, saying issue in my life because there was no phone to catch
28:21
Kirk. So now that there are phones, if I'm having fun or laughing at something, now it could be judged. If I'm having fun on
28:27
stage, it's like, "Oh, he twerk." And it was like, "No, I was just having fun with one of my first." I was acting stupid. Like, it wasn't even a good
28:33
twerk. It was It was like, it was a horrible I didn't want to say nothing, but
28:38
It wasn't even a good twerk. It wasn't even an attempt to Yeah. Yeah. It was a teen twerk.
28:45
It was a Kirk. It was It wasn't a twerk. It was a cur.
28:51
It was a curtain. It was It was It was not a It wasn't I was just having
28:58
fun with one of my sisters on stage because we have so much fun off stage, right? You know me. I know
29:04
I'm a fool and funny anywhere I am. People are not used to that. people are used to their spiritual leaders being
29:10
docile and you know very you know you know and so the image you had of me before the cell phone is that you know
29:16
oh he's such a and it's like I'm a kid I'm young and I'm you know still living
29:22
it out man yeah so these are the things that people don't realize is that it is not easy
29:27
growing can you imagine if every person had to grow in their faith with their mic on
29:33
man come on with your mic on your you you trying to growing your faith and every day your
29:39
mic is on. Yeah. Come on, man. Kirk Franklin, man. This man is human. You brought your family with you, right?
29:45
Who you got here with? Oh, no, man. These just my people, man. That's my son over there in the corner. I'm being funny too big.
29:51
No, no, cuz it ain't your son. No, man. These just my people that work with me, man. Yeah.
29:58
All right. All right. I always like to acknowledge the people in the room, man. You know, cuz they got a lot to do with
30:03
the person on the mic, right? And so, um, shout out to Brandon, man. That's my
30:08
boy. That's my hero right there, man. How much you bench pressing now, bro? It look like got a little more swole, dog. Pause. But you know what I
30:16
mean. You know, I can't hear you. What did you say? How much you bench pressing now? My mic is not working well. What? Hold on.
30:22
Kirk, I can see the growth, man. Like, I can see the work, you know. Oh, man. Just glory to God, brother.
30:28
Just I give you the church answer. I give you the church answer. Oh, just glory to God, brother.
30:34
the church in some churches. I think he can 300 300 lb. All right. Uh Mike, you
30:40
want to jump in? That's my guy right there, boy. That's my guy right there. Do you follow him on Instagram?
30:46
No, you got to follow him on Instagram, Kirk. Really? Why? But you would have saw him in San Trope
30:52
last week. That's the homie. You would have saw him in a tribal ceremony celebrating food.
30:59
Did you have like the little uh speedos on? Like did you do like were you down there?
31:04
Were you doing were you down there showing out? Oh, I was definitely dancing on tables but not in speedos.
31:11
All right, man. Go ahead, Mike. Kirk, it's always good to see you, brother. Uh, always makes me smile.
31:18
Always enjoy our conversations. Um, I love the new single. I do it again, but just a point of personal reference.
31:24
Bless me still has me in a choke cold. So, um, with Maverick City, the one that you did, but just FYI. Um the question I
31:30
have for you though is I'm curious and I've been thinking about you in the sense of what is your thoughts on uh the
31:36
state and brand of Christianity. Um in particular as we look at what's happening with the evangelical church um
31:43
engagement with politics um as you look at the membership decreasing in churches
31:49
on Sundays um and if you look at the lack of or possibly in the engagement what civil rights and what the black
31:55
church used uh to be and the role that it had. And so I'm I'm just curious from you like what is the state of
32:00
Christianity right now and the brand of Christianity is it taking a hit? Well, you know that I love those questions and and I I think you know me
32:07
well enough to know that I don't shy away from those questions. I'm very intentional. First thing I want to do is I want to celebrate
32:12
there are some new voices that that that that on horizon that are that are that
32:18
are incredible. Philip Anthony Mitchell, Darius Daniels, um um um oh man, what's
32:24
the guy that just spoke at my church? um Mason uh um there's a guy name Eric Mason there there's there's some great
32:30
voices uh uh Charlie Dates out of Chicago there's some young voices that
32:37
are doing it they are killing it and they are intentional and so I believe
32:43
that uh uh scriptur is true that God will never leave himself without a witness the text says and I think that
32:48
that a lot of the falling off can also be good because it also lets you know
32:54
who the real ones are. It lets you know who the real soldiers are because a lot of times the spectators can kind of get
33:00
in the way of the real voice getting in in the ears and in the hands and the hearts of those that are really want to
33:05
put their lives on the line. And so um I am extremely disappointed with with uh
33:11
with white nationalism that is birthed out of the evangelical community in America is I think that we have to uh
33:17
also address those issues because if not it becomes across it comes across very duplicitous that um the origin and the
33:24
history of western Christianity in America has not been always the most beneficial for people of color. And I
33:29
and I think that we continue we continue to live in that um that tension that
33:35
that that that the that the weapon
33:41
that damaged us is now the redemption that saves us. And so we have to uh be
33:47
honest about that. We have to deconstruct it at times. Um but I still believe that the message I still believe
33:53
in in in the beautifification of the church. Think about it. the a church uh
33:58
in history was is what birthed hospitals. The uh church is what also birthed universities in America. Um uh
34:05
um a a lot of the um the philanthropy that that that came into H.B.CU in those
34:12
communities were coming out of men and women that were that were in the space of um that was in the space of faith. So
34:20
we've we we see the civil rights movement the civil rights movement in America was birthed out of the church.
34:25
So, we've seen the church um do some incredible work while at the same time there has been a lot of uh um challenges
34:35
and spaces that need to be addressed. But I still believe in her message. I
34:40
still believe in her heart and I still believe that the good news is available for anyone that will choose to get
34:47
through all the BS, all the dogma, all the doctrine. We must acknowledge our mistakes. We must address the sins of
34:54
the of of of Western Christianity and to realize one important space. Western
35:00
Christianity and the teachings of Jesus Christ are not synonymous. Yeah. Say that again.
35:06
Western Christianity and the teachings of Jesus Christ. I'm talking about the Middle Eastern Jesus. Not the one that look like the BGS.
35:12
Yeah. Okay. Not that. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Not the one that look like Barry Kim. Not the one that like Barry Kim.
35:19
But but yeah, I'm I'm I'm kind of leave that alone. So yeah, but the teachings of Jesus Christ and Western
35:26
Christianity, they are not synonymous. Mhm. So when when did you realize that uh
35:32
believe that you know realize Jesus Christ wasn't this blond blue-eyed um
35:37
portrait that we tend to see scholarship when when I started to when I started to
35:42
pursue academia when I started to have when I started to bring uh when I started to bring intellect and
35:49
understanding into my Christian faith what started happening about 20 years ago my my Christian faith started to be tested very very much outside of the
35:56
church because a lot of times when you're raised in church. Everything about church is right. Everything you hear, you just lean into even when you
36:01
don't understand. Well, when I started to live more outside of that space and there was um there was a lot of
36:07
historical challenges, there was a lot of uh context challenges that I could
36:12
not answer. It started this journey for me to bring a a a lot of uh uh
36:20
intellectual historical u and archaeological understanding about the u
36:27
historical truth of the historical Jesus that that brought more gravity to my
36:32
faith. Yeah. Is that Europe did not influence Africa. Africa influenced Europe
36:38
and this is three centuries before Constantine. Mhm. And so these are the things that gave me
36:44
gravity to be okay. Well, I can put my hope in this. This is not this is not
36:49
the weaponized version that Western Christianity taught me. But the historical truth is that Augustine, the
36:55
Tertilian, these were uh in Alexander these were men of color. Yes. That the first church was in Alexander
37:03
uh uh Mark's church was in North Africa. That the disciple Mark started his
37:08
church in North Africa. That's not Europe. as Africa. And so these truths, but at the same time, let's not also get
37:14
it twisted. This gospel is for everybody. It's for everybody, right? It's for everybody. Everybody can pull up. We just realize that the way we were
37:21
taught to hate ourselves was the lie. That that that that we were the architects of even the faith that we
37:27
believed. That's why we believe it so much because we were in it. Yeah, man. Kirk Franklin, man, give this
37:32
man a round of applause. Yes. So, um Oh, Mike, my bad. That's okay. Kirk, if I can go back uh
37:38
and follow up with you with that part that you talked about. So, I like where you were going when you said um the the
37:44
the Jesus of that test or time period is different than it's not synonymous with
37:49
western um Christianity. Are you talking about the dogma and how the church has created dogmatic dynamics to uh the
37:57
original teachings of Jesus? Is that what you are are saying? Yes. Yes. Exactly. Even when you look at
38:02
theology and when you looked at even when you look at doctrine, doctrine is nothing but um man's man's systems of
38:10
trying to be able to communicate and articulate um the the uh text that when
38:16
when you look at cannon of scripture and and you look at the early fathers of the faith, they were creating doctrines and
38:22
dogmas. But a lot of these doctrines and dogma also had to do with control. Mhm. They were trying to control the habits
38:29
and the ways and the executions of human behavior, whether it was sexuality, whether it was giving, whether whether it was trying to
38:36
have these monotheistic ideals or or or trying to make monotheistic ideals monolithic.
38:41
And so when you look at all of the origins of controlling humankind, it came from dogma. It came from doctrine.
38:49
where when you look at the teachings of Jesus Christ and when you look at the heart of the matter of the gospels, it
38:55
is about if you're sick and if you're hurting, there's no way that I can be well when my brother's still sick and
39:01
hurting. Yeah. Period. And then and so for you to see,
39:07
let me let me say like this. If every church in America during segregation
39:12
would have said that slavery is a sin, slavery would have never existed in America.
39:18
Yeah. Slavery could have never existed in America if every Bible reading I
39:23
don't know what Bible they were reading I don't know what Bible they were using but if every Bible believing church
39:30
during the 19th 18th century would have would would have collectively said that
39:36
slavery is a sin slavery would have never existed in America because child slavery I'm I'm not
39:43
talking about historically because we know that in Egypt there were there were there were different forms of slavery where you pay your way out. But I'm
39:49
talking about this thing that disrupted and dismantled humans from their family, from their thinking, from their from
39:56
their well-being, from their mental health. Yeah. That if we would have collectively, if Christians collective would have said
40:02
slavery is a sin, it would have never existed in America. Because that's how much power the church
40:09
had in Western America. Kirk Franklin, citizens, uh, this is
40:14
seemed like a convers. I love where this just went. Thank you, Kirk Franklin. I appreciate you, brother.
40:21
Thank you. How much you bench pressing on, bro? Wow. You back to that this jealousy you
40:27
leaning on. Cut up right there. Is I bench press is I bench press the devil.
40:34
He on fire today.
40:39
He walked out. He walked out the room. Oh my god, man. I love my brother. Thank
40:46
you Kirk Franklin for coming by. David Weber out.

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