From factory floor to frontline: modernizing and sustaining armored systems faster

All right, well, good morning again. I'm Jen Judson, land warfare reporter for Defense News

and I'm joined now by Brigadier General Beth Bain, the Army's Tank Automotive and Armaments Command, or TACOM commander

General, thank you for joining me this morning here at AOSA for a nice fireside chat

It's a pleasure to be able to sit on the stage with you

We just recently had a chance to sit down at Rock Island Arsenal a couple months ago

You recently took the job over the summer, correct? I did. I think you were maybe a couple months in at that point, too

Maybe a couple weeks, I think. Maybe, yeah. I'm losing track of time, as I'm sure we all are

So you were in the midst of visiting all of the depots and arsenals in your purview

to get a grasp of the state of play of the organic industrial base as it relates to your command

And I think you'd been to WaterVleet, maybe a few others at the time

So talk about the mission, that mission. So what you were learning from all of those different spots as it relates to your mission, you know, across the board

What are some of the lessons that you took from those visits? Well, thanks

And first, just thanks to Defense News for letting me be a part of this today and to all of you for coming out early to hear about what we're doing

True champions out here. That's right. That's right. This is a really exciting time

And so, I mean, I guess I would preface anything about my whirlwind tour of our depots and arsenals with just

it's an exciting time to be at Tank and Automotive Command. It's an exciting time to be in our Army

If you had a chance to hear the Secretary's opening remarks yesterday

a definite sense of urgency to adapt and innovate and an openness to thinking differently about how we do that

and really breaking down barriers that have kept us from innovating at the pace of change in the past

And so I'm excited to be sitting, be part of a team in a command that is going to be at the tip of the spear for a lot of that new way of thinking and doing things

So I just open with that. Yeah, I took command on July 27th, took over for Major General Michael Laylor, who's now overdoing great things in Europe

And I got out to visit ultimately by the first week of October

I think we had hit two depots, three arsenals, and our manufacturing center in Lima, Ohio

So all six of TACOM sites that are part of the Army's 23 organic industrial base locations

A lot of travel, but it was fantastic. I learned a lot and definitely felt the energy and spirit of innovation at our depots and arsenals

Our leaders there, down to the artisans doing the work on some of those production lines

clearly see that the work that they're doing is having an immediate effect on the warfighter

So, I mean, TACOM exists to generate and sustain readiness for the ground force

That's what we do. So if you're not familiar with TACOM, all of the Army's ground equipment, from small arms to uniforms to tanks and Bradleys and paladins, 60% of the Army's equipment

If a soldier wears it, shoots it, or drives it, TACOM sustains it

And so our depots and arsenals are a critical component of that sustainment

That coupled with our great integrated logistics support center that sits at Detroit Arsenal

and does supply chain optimization to ensure we've got everything that we need to sustain that huge force

So, yeah, visiting the depots and arsenals was enlightening to see what they're already doing to improve their processes

but also to better understand what holds them back from doing even more

And until you get there and you walk the ground and you go down a particular production line

to fully grasp the challenge of modernization, I couldn't do it from a PowerPoint slide

I had to get out there and see it with my own eyes. But I walked away with a much better understanding

not just of what we're currently doing, but where we're trying to go

and what are some of the obstacles that I need to channel my energy into

and ask for help from higher to knock down so that we can go even faster

Well, you and I got a chance to see a pour in a foundry forge at Rock Island

It was just incredible if you ever get a chance to see something like that. It's pretty amazing

But then you step into another facility that's clean and gleaming white

and full of 3D printers, so it's amazing to see the juxtaposition

as you go from something that's hundreds of years old. If you ever visit the Joint Manufacturing Technology Center

at Rock Island Arsenal, it's been there since the late 19th century

and so in one part is the Army's only active foundry, so in one part you can

go and feel like you're stepping back into the late 19th century and see early manufacturing techniques

And then you can go right across the road to what is our center of excellence for advanced manufacturing

And it's the most cutting-edge advanced manufacturing efforts that are out there

And it's all housed in one facility. So I think in some ways Rock Island is a microcosm for the OIB in general

Absolutely. So the Army leadership has directed a 90-day look at OIB

I think you said 90 days back last time we talked, so time is flying

What did you learn touring the Arsenal's in-depots that you are taking back for recommendations for the 90-day look at the OIB that Army leadership has requested

Are there any priorities that you've identified that should move forward more quickly to enable your command's mission

Yeah. So it's interesting because 90 days is a sprint to do anything substantive

And Army senior leaders came back to my boss, General Mohan, the Army Materiel Commander

about 45 days into that and said, actually, we'd like an interim report in 60 days

So, I mean, it just gives you a sense of the urgency that Army leaders have for modernization and innovation

It was interesting because as the AMC team was doing their visit to, and they went to all 23 OIV locations

as well as the headquarters that oversee them so TACOM AMCOM Joint Munitions Command and CECOM And so that AMCAG team and I were kind of in concentric circles So they were visiting sites while I was also visiting sites I think we came away with a lot of the same

insights. So I'll give you three. One, our method of calculating rates in our OIV locations

makes it very difficult for our depots and arsenals to be competitive with commercial manufacturers

So we've got to relook the way we do rate calculations. We have to figure out a way to bring down our costs

or to not include things in our costs that take us out of being competitive

So I think the final report will certainly have recommendations on rate reform

The second is partnering with commercial industry. So just last week, I had all of our depot and arsenal commanders at Detroit Arsenal, two weeks ago maybe

And we visited the Ford factory where they build F-150s, which was both fascinating and humbling

I mean, we're not going to be Ford, and Ford was pumping 1,300 F-150s a day out of the facility that we were in

and they were doing that with about 150 people, and almost the entire line automated lots of use of robots and automation

But it was also interesting to see what's possible. So for our depot and arsenal commanders to see the degree of automation, the degree of precision, the supply chain work that goes into allowing those lines to run continuously without stoppage, that's where we need to go

And, again, I'm not going to make 1,300 F-150s a day. But we can increase our production and we can leverage the knowledge of commercial partners

who have expertise in that in a way that I don't think we fully have before

So I think you're going to see here in the next few weeks a rollout of acquisition reform

and also a rollout of this 90-day OIB assessment. and I fully expect that part of that will emphasize partnering with commercial companies

who have expertise in manufacturing, who understand how to best leverage AI and data ytics

to project all of the things that you need to keep lines running efficiently and effectively

And instead of us trying to figure all of that out in our silo of excellence

we'll be leveraging and partnering with commercial entities to help us with that

Okay. You had a unique experience of getting to see Ukraine security assistance at the ground level in 2023 for a half a year, I believe

So talk about that experience and what did you learn and how has it motivated you

and how you look at innovation when it comes to armored systems sustaining and protecting them

Yeah, so I had the privilege of serving as a deputy commander in security assistance group Ukraine, SAG-U, in the summer and fall of 2023

And so I was really on the receiving end of what TACOM can deliver in the presidential drawdown and getting equipment to our Ukrainian partners

we used our depots and arsenals in ways that we hadn't in a long time

and so big spikes in volume so we were cranking Bradley fighting vehicles out of Red River

small arms to armored vehicles out of Anniston what was really rewarding I just take a minute to say was

in our travels here over the last couple of months to be able to go to Red River and to Anniston

and to Waterville Elite and to Rock Island and to Sierra and to be able to talk to our artisans who work in those arsenals and depots

and thank them for what they've done and let them know the tangible effect

I had a front row seat, sat daily with Ukrainian partners as we transitioned that equipment to them

and then would see it 48 hours later be standing in our operations center

and hear reports of that equipment being used in the fight. And so to be able to go back and tell the folks who did overtime shifts

and worked weekends to be able to produce all of that on a timeline that was far faster than anybody anticipated they'd be able to do

it was incredibly personally rewarding for me, and I felt grateful to be able to thank them for their work

So what my time in Ukraine and working with SAG, you illuminated to me, is really this talk about the future battlefield and what things are going to look like in the future fight

That is now. It's not the future. It's happening right now. And so being able to be fluent in a battlefield that is sensor saturated, if you can, you know, if you can be seen, you can be targeted and you can be seen everywhere

That that was eye opening. You know, prior to my time, there had really been more of a theoretical

and then what I got to witness there, it was actual. So I think I told you, Jen, I came back from there hair on fire with we've got to adapt

We need to be training our soldiers and our leaders how to be comfortable in a drone environment

UAS, counter-UAS, and electronic warfare. I mean, those were the three things that I thought we are way behind where we need to be

and we don't need to crawl forward. We need to leap forward. I was not surprised at all to see that the Army's three requests

three areas where we were seeking agile funding was those three areas

because it made perfect sense given what I'd just seen. The rate of change in those systems is so fast that a funding system

that doesn't allow you to fluidly move to the next innovation is one that won't serve our nation well

Well, that's a good segue. You know, funding, more flexible funding would help you move faster

But what are some other policy changes that will hopefully, that you're hearing about or that are in the works

that may help the Army move faster in the future when it comes to sustaining and maintaining armored systems

I think one comes to mind is the recent AMC commander They're getting authority to fast track

Qualify parts. Qualify parts. Yeah, yeah. Talk about that a little bit. I'm super excited about that

I'd be thrilled. So I took command on the 22nd of July happened to coincide with the same day that the Secretary of the Army issued an Army directive authorizing the AMC commander to qualify advanced manufactured parts

So rather than follow the traditional parts qualification system, which is multiple layers of approval after testing and research and more testing and more research, this was for advanced manufactured parts, giving him the authority to qualify those

With all caveats, as the gentleman who was up here earlier said, safety and we're not going to put soldiers at risk

and we're not going to put exquisite systems at risk by having flimsy parts put in there

But with all those caveats in place. We then have worked hard over the last couple of months, and just a week before last

General Mohan further delegated that authority to me to be able to qualify low and medium risk parts

So we've built a risk matrix and said, you know, if it's a part that has a low risk of failure

and even if it were to fail, a low risk of catastrophic damage to the system or to the soldier

well, that's a pretty low risk part. And if we also can show that through our testing and qualification that we can produce that in a way that is equal to or even greater sometimes than the OEM manufactured part

we can probably safely qualify that part. And if it's one that we have trouble getting through the regular supply system, manufacture it ourselves and put it for long-term use, not temporary use

And I guess that's the most important distinction to be made. We've been working for the last year on something called BDRF, Battle Damage Repair and Fabrication

which is the production of parts for temporary use while we wait for the OEM manufactured part to arrive

And now we're leaping from BDRF to qualified parts. So when we produce that part and then we catalog it and it's in the supply system

When a unit requisitions, if the part's not available through the regular supply system but it's available here

they'll get that part and they can use that. It's a secondary source of supply rather than just a temporary part

So that's a significant leap forward. We got that authority in July, late July, early August

General Mohan challenged us to qualify 60 parts in 60 days. So that was October 7th was our mark on the wall

And I'm pleased to say that on October 3rd, with four days to spare, we qualified the first 61 parts

So 61 of the parts that had previously been developed under battle damage repair and fabrication, authorized for temporary use

we fully qualified and are now available for permanent use as a secondary source of supply out of Rock Island Arsenal

The vision, though, is much bigger than that. I mean, those are, we're now like the next objective is identifying parts that are readiness drivers

that are potentially more complex but also a bigger impact on readiness

We don't want to additably manufacture just because it's gee whiz, you know, cool

Like, we want to do it to drive readiness effects. And so we're leveraging a number of commercial partners

who have developed methods to identify parts candidates for advanced manufacturing that are, in fact, we've got the materials and we've got the printers and systems

that are able to do that with the readiness driver, like bringing all of that together

So right system, right material, right parts to be able to drive readiness

And so that's our next objective. The next tranche of parts that we qualify will aim to be in that bucket of readiness drivers

Okay. How is TACOM innovating on the sustainment front? Predictive diagnostics are, you know, the buzzwords here, condition-based maintenance, digital twins

Talk about why those things matter and what else you're looking at when it comes to innovation on the sustainment front. Yeah

Just yesterday I met with several of our great industry partners. and talked about where we've got delays in getting critical components

And part of that is that we don't do a great job of forecasting. And so we've got to improve our ability to predict failures

our ability to predict quantities of those critical components. And that's where those sorts of predictive logistics, condition-based maintenance, it's twofold

So one is, you know, how do we do a better job of forecasting

And that is by having either existing sensors on our armored systems

or adding additional sensors to draw that diagnostic data off. That will improve our forecasting

And then when we go to overhaul a, you know, overhaul, we're going to overhaul M88s, tractor recovery vehicles, at Anniston this next year

and I'm excited about that because M88 readiness is a challenge for our Army right now

But diagnosing the major assemblies within that tracked vehicle to determine what fully needs to be overhauled

what was just recently changed out by the unit on one of those major assemblies

so that we're not overhauling, if you will. So the combination of better forecasting and then use of diagnostic tools, I think is going to improve the way that we have finite resources

And so using those effectively is a big part of the agenda

Okay. What are some bottlenecks in current industry when it comes to armored systems production that the organic industrial base is trying to solve

When I was at Rock Island, we talked a little bit about some delays with transparent armor, for instance

That's really not an easy thing to make, and companies struggle to even stay open to produce that, for instance

So if you could elaborate a little on where you're seeing those bottlenecks

Well, I think it's – I won't talk about a specific bottleneck, but just the process

So we have low volume and then inconsistent demand and a fragile underlying supply chain

And so that is the perfect storm to all of a sudden not have a solenoid that you need to keep a line running just as an example So you know what we looking to do is again partner with industry

because clearly we don't have a corner on the market for supply chain optimization

There's a lot of people with great skills that are using terrific data ytics

to improve their supply chain management. But diversify the vendor base. I've talked to several of our significant partners who will have a subcontractor who goes out of business or changes what they're doing

and they are dependent on that one vendor for a component for a larger assembly

And so I think there are some aspects to our contracting approach that could create flexibility for primes to diversify their subcontractor base

And I think the acquisition reform that we're going to see rolled out here in the next few weeks is going to break that open

So we were at an event last night, and I told a couple of folks from a startup that it's a good time to be a startup

Like there is an urgency to disrupt the way that we've done things in the past to create room for those who can come in and quickly be part of solutions to solve readiness challenges

And so where I think we've become somewhat numb to, well, I got a 12-month lead time on that

I don't think that is I don't think any of us think that that's acceptable

but we've come to accept it as the way it has to be

and the environment we're in right now is that it's not acceptable

we don't have to accept it and we're going to disrupt it there is innovation

and capability to do better and we have to figure out what is stopping us from doing that

What policies, what far limits there are, far as in federal opposition regulation, not far as in distance, but right

What are the things that are barriers to entry for small companies that can come in and be disruptive and solve some of our readiness challenges

Okay. How is the Army fostering partnerships in private industry right now when it comes to what you're doing

Well, we are going to partner with some, I mentioned the M88 line at Anniston Army Depot

so we're going to have two or three different commercial partners come into Anniston in the next week or so

and take a look at how we plan to run that line

and then make recommendations on how we could do that more effectively and more efficiently

Just one example in one place, but there is an openness to partnering that I don't think we've seen before

It's not zero sum. This can be a win for everybody. We can get more efficient and effective, and there's a business, you know

there's a value proposition for commercial partners to be a part of that as well

So I think there's a way to design public-private partnerships within our OIB sites

that is a win for both the public and the private. Okay

What are some innovations in production and sustainment that you're seeing come out of, say, the OIB

or elsewhere to solve some of the big problems that you have. I know that when I was at Rock Island and saw the jointless hole printer

subtractive and additive, there was the, I'm going to, I can't remember the name of it, but the machine

all the big aluminum blocks come through, and instead of welding a whole bunch of parts together

it makes one single part, and it's done almost with just a few humans involved in the loop

and can work overnight, things like that. Right. Our depots and arsenals are all engaged in continuous process improvement

And it was amazing to me to see some of that. Rock Island's a great example of where they're finding ways to automate processes and keep a human in the loop

but not necessarily on the line doing the work. And the challenge, though, is modernizing in stride

So, I mean, many of you are probably familiar with the OIB 15-year modernization program

I went to Waterville-Eyed Arsenal. It's probably a good example. That is the Army's large caliber barrel and cannon assembly spot

That's it. That's the one place where we produce that. And so for them to stop production in order to change a process, it's difficult to do that because the demand remains the same

So, you know, how do we keep a line going while also bringing in a new technology to start a new line

Or how do we produce ahead of need? And this would be an example of a policy change that I think could be helpful

So if we could produce a head of need in order to stop a line, to then do a modernization initiative and resume that line

sometimes our acquisition policies prohibit us from producing a head of need

But that's exactly what we need to do in order to not have disruptions as we do modernization projects

So we've got, again, a 15-year plan to modernize the organic industrial base

We're in the second year. Going into the third year of that, a number of those projects are well underway at our OIB locations

And I think the top cover that we're getting from the Department of War and the Department of the Army

to rethink some of the prohibitions that slow our modernization efforts. We'll help keep that program not only on track but potentially accelerate it

Another area that I think you'll see come out in the OIV study is in military construction, MILCON

I mean, MILCON projects are 7 to 10-year time frame, and that's just not going to meet the pace of change

so we have to rethink the way we do military construction projects

Again, visit to the Ford factory, the facility where they're building the F-150 Lightning, the fully electric Ford vehicle

from concept to constructed facility to production was less than two years

that that's beyond our wildest dreams right now for uh for how quickly we we can do something like

that um so the art of the possible right i mean there there are examples out there and i think

the army is open to uh thinking differently about taking full advantage of the the commercial

approach to those sorts of things. Again, the Secretary talked about it very clearly in his

opening remarks yesterday, you know, a Silicon Valley type approach that fosters disruption to

existing systems to make rapid change. Okay. Let's talk on the other side of the coin here

Down at the unit, you know, small unit level and down at the tactical edge, talked a lot about the

OIB, but how are you seeing units approaching maintenance and sustainment for armored systems

in the field? Maybe you learned quite a bit from Ukraine, also remote maintenance, things like that

How are you learning from those experiences? Well, we work very closely with the operational army and, in fact, work to extend the capability

of the organic industrial base out to our operational units. So while we're sitting here right now, we have a team with a mixture of artisans

from Red River and Aniston that are in Europe with a deployed unit

working hand-in-hand with field maintainers on their equipment, particularly focused on their armored fleet

We've seen great effects of that in terms of readiness as we bring the skills of that workforce

and then also do parts exchange with those field level maintainers that's able to bring systems up

There's a real appetite from our field maintainers to fix their own stuff

and to be able to do that in a way that leverages field-level advanced manufacturing capabilities

So that battle damage repair and fabrication process that I've talked about

a component of that is the advanced manufacturing digital repository that AMC maintains

There's over 600 items in the advanced manufacturing digital repository, And so field units with their issued 3D printers that are part of their maintenance set can log into that system if they've got a part

And if the capability of their printer and the materials are there, they can download those drawings and print that part and put it on to keep that system in the fight

Huge appetite for advanced manufacturing in the field. So I think the work that we've got to do at the enterprise level is determine what is the right advanced manufacturing capability at Echelon

We're not going to have exquisite advanced manufacturing in the back of a Humvee

We're going to have field expedience type advanced manufacturing, quick fix, primarily plastics, polymers

But one terrain feature back from that, we could have additional capability

And back in the core area we could have pretty exquisite capability And so that what we and then back in the strategic support area at Rock Island we got incredible capability and that part of a network of industry partners with capability as well

So trying to figure out what is the right capability at Echelon to, again, not to print just for printing sake, but to additively manufacture, advanced manufacture in order to drive readiness

Absolutely. I wanted to dive a little deeper into some technical enablers and how you're thinking about that

I mean, there's a lot of talk about electrification, hybrid, alternative fuels for vehicles

And some are a little farther afield than others. But how are you thinking about that as, say, the Army designs a potential hybrid combat vehicle, for instance

How are you thinking about bringing that into the sustainment side of the house? So, you know, the benefits of a hybrid vehicle, the reduction in demand, every, I mean, again, I'll go back to my experience in supporting the Ukrainians

And so what was very clear to me is that the Russians and the Ukrainians both spent an enormous amount of time watching one another's logistics

and determining where the next advance might be coming from based on movement of fuel trucks or ammunition

And so every fuel truck that we can take off of the battlefield, every delivery of ammunition that we can take off of the battlefield to prevent exposure to attack and then also to prevent indication of where the next thing is going to happen, that's helpful

And so vehicles that consume less fuel because they're hybrid or vehicles that we've got censored to determine consumption rates, failure rates

so we're not sending supplies, repair parts forward when they're not needed, a precision approach to sustainment

So hybrid vehicles are a part of that. Better sensors are a part of that as well

Okay. In terms of materials, weight, protection type of things, you know, what are some things that you're looking at when it comes to, you know, lighter materials or, you know, protection systems for armored vehicles

You know, how are you accounting for all of these kind of new developments when it comes to the armored side of the house

Yeah, so my teammates from PEO Ground Combat Systems would probably be able to talk about that in greater technical detail and take on we sustain what is fielded

But I would just say that in general, I mean, it kind of goes back to, you know, a lighter vehicle requires, you know, a lighter transport of it

And so there's efficiencies to be gained by taking advantage of all of those capabilities

I've spent time, the TACOM headquarters sits at Detroit Arsenal with PEO ground combat systems on one side of us

and PEO combat support and combat service support on the other side

And so the ground combat center of excellence is right there. And we surrounded by a great Michigan defense industry who ready to bring the insights from commercial industry and what they been able to do on the automotive side you know into all three of our headquarters as well Okay In the context of armored platforms what are sort of the toughest failure modes or logistical

pain points that you're working to overcome right now? Our major assemblies in our ground combat systems, transmissions, engines, we struggle

with wiring harnesses. And so we're always trying to figure out what is the reason for failure

Is it we have not done the depot overhauls in accordance with the OEM-recommended timeline

Do we need better training of our field maintainers and operators to make sure that there's not human error contributing to some of those failure rates

And then just accurately forecasting the demand for those critical assemblies so that we're not finding ourselves in a position where we have a spike in demand

and we've got a supply chain that is so fragile that it's not able to react in a timely way to that

So I think those are the major factors of things that we're trying to work through. Okay

Okay. I did want to open up questions from the audience, if anyone has a question

Otherwise, I can keep going. No? Okay. All right. There is a mic if you can walk to the center

Sorry to make you journey over there. Oh, I don't know. You might have to pull up the switch

Oh, it's on. Okay. He's got it. Thanks for that really great talk

What's your biggest challenge right now? I think our biggest challenge is thinking differently, opening the aperture to challenging what we've taken as immovable obstacles and saying they're not immovable

We just have to think differently. And I know that that sounds glib maybe or cliche, but it is true

I mean, Sergeant Major and I sat down with our team just last week and said

what is stopping us from just breaking off a contract that is underperforming

And, you know, when we meet with, you come to a place like this

and there's lots of energy and innovative spirit, when we have an underperforming contract, what is stopping us from breaking that

And maybe it's something in our contracting system. Maybe it's that there's really no other supplier that can do it

But we've got to start thinking in that way. um when we and this is what i've been talking to our depot and arsenal commanders about

you know when there is uh something that you know that you could do to be more efficient to bring

your rates down but there is some policy or regulation that is prohibiting you from doing

that i need you to highlight that what what is the thing that is slowing you down um and then

And kind of last thing in that area is we've challenged our headquarters to be making data-driven decisions

We are still incredibly reliant on Excel spreadsheets and human brainpower And you know those are great things but we got better tools and we just have to discipline ourselves to use those tools

We've got to skill our workforce to be able to utilize those tools

but then also be disciplined and, I think, ruthless. I told our team, by January, I don't want to sit through a meeting

that is showing PowerPoint slides and screenshots of visualization dashboards. I want to go off visualization dashboards and use live data

and portray that data in a way that allows us to make data-informed decisions

So, again, we've got great industry partners who are light years ahead of us in that regard

And so opening our aperture to, that can be us. We don't have to be living in the early 2000s

We can be in 2026, and we just have to discipline ourselves to do that and be committed to it

And we've certainly got the pressure to get there, from the secretary through the chief

I mean, when the chief talks about continuous transformation, it is with urgency and a fervor that I truly believe has trickled down

When I go to our depots and arsenals and I talk to a Tier 2 line supervisor, they are absolutely thinking, how can I do this better

What do I need to do this better? What are the skills that my workforce needs

What are the technological systems that I need to put in place

And so you feel that trickle-down effect of the urgency. Okay, I'm going to ask the final question

Are we out of time already? You've got two minutes left. All right. All right. Just get warmed up

Well, we could keep going if everyone wants to take her. What do you want driven into the design of new vehicles that are currently in design right now

We've got Bradley replacement. We've got a rapid design for a new modernized Abrams, for instance

What are some of the things that you're most excited about that will be a part of these new vehicles that help you do your job

I'm very excited about the pre-censored components so that we're not bolting on sensors to pull data off of systems

that that is embedded in the system. I'm excited about interchangeability. So developing systems that are open architecture and also compatible, backwards compatible to previous models

And then also forward compatible for future systems. So I think those are the two things that are most exciting, what we're seeing with new designs. Okay

Well, that brings us to the end of our discussion. And a big thank you to you, General Bain

and to Umberto Raposo from Carpenter Technology for sharing your perspectives this morning

And, of course, thank you to Carpenter Technology for supporting this important conversation here at AUSA Annual Meeting

And thank you for joining us. Thank you. Appreciate it