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Groups of masked thugs targeted homes and businesses owned by migrants in Belfast after a Sudanese asylum seeker was charged with attempted murder following a “sickening” knife attack. The incident comes following a stabbing attack by a Sudanese national on Monday night which triggered violent unrest in Belfast. Hadi Alodid, 30, has appeared in court charged with the attack, with the 44-year-old victim, Stephen Ogilvie, said to have lost an eye as a result. As the nation waits for more news, Jonathan Hall KC, the government's anti-terror watchdog, explains why he thinks immigration has become a 'national security threat'. #andrewmarr #belfast #riots #ukpolitics #news #uknews #lbc #immigration
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0:00
Good evening. It is, obviously, a Belfast problem. But it's also not a Belfast problem
0:09
in that protests over migration and recent attacks have also taken place in Glasgow
0:16
Edinburgh, Southampton, Liverpool, Manchester, Crawley, Middlesbrough, London, Birmingham, Epping, Leeds, Norwich and Lincoln and go back into last year and to a major, sometimes
0:32
violent, protests in lots of other places as well as those. In other words, this is a national problem
0:39
It's not limited to one town or city or incident. Jonathan Hall Casey, Britain's independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, says that
0:48
migration is now a national security issue and may be destabilising to the nation
0:54
But hold on, you might very well say, don't let the thuggish behaviour of a small minority of people, however angry they are, stand for the mood of the country
1:04
Fair point. But recent polling shows two-thirds of British people think migration levels are too high
1:11
And just as interesting, although immigration plummeted last year, only 16% of people have even noticed
1:19
Of course, fears about dangerous and violent individuals arriving here won't be stilled by statistics or by details of their entry route
1:28
Being attacked by a knife must feel much the same, whatever the size of the group the attacker comes from
1:34
In the moment, his migration status won't be what you are thinking about
1:39
There's a much more serious screening and detention regime coming, or at least I hope there is
1:44
Today, politicians from all sides were rightly appealing for calm and didn't get much involved in obvious policy arguments, for instance
1:51
about the common travel area and the Irish border. But we will get there, that's for sure
1:57
Well, I mentioned the warnings there from Jonathan Hall, KC, the independent reviewer on terrorism legislation
2:04
and I'm delighted to say that he joins us now. Jonathan, thanks for being on LBC
2:08
Can I start by asking, you say there is a national security aspect to this
2:13
Just tell us what you mean by that. Two things. first of all when you have these absolutely savage slaughters by people who ought not to
2:23
have been in the country um in the sense that they came in illegally or ought to have been in the
2:29
country in the sense that they were perfectly legitimately able to apply for asylum but
2:33
they didn't come in through a visa route that disturbs the national security i mean it's it
2:41
There will be the thugs, and there are thugs, who are doing terrible violence
2:45
But it has an effect a bit like Southport, which it disturbs the peace of the nation
2:51
Secondly, I'm worried about state threats. And I do know that there are Iranian operatives seeking to recruit people
3:01
And people coming, for example, on small boats because of family ties or because they are financially precarious
3:06
can be pressurised or agree, because they're ideologically aligned, to act for the Iranian
3:13
or some other hostile state. So there are two precise ways. And the bigger point
3:18
and this is the thing that I found so interesting, is that from the White House, the White House
3:23
regards immigration into the UK and other European nations as a matter of its national security
3:30
And so the question I've sort of posed myself, and I suspect other people are as well, other reasonable people are saying what's going on is is there a national security dimension I think
3:38
it's possible to say reasonably that there is without going down the complete civilizational
3:43
erasure um you know line which which yeah you raise a very very interesting a very difficult
3:50
question I think in the piece you've written about this which is the case of a sort of traumatized
3:56
angry PTSD ridden individual from a war zone where perhaps there have been multiple uh civil war
4:03
involvement, he's seen terrible things, comes here. Now, he may have the human right to be here. It may
4:10
be as it were ethical to give him asylum And yet that might be the very person who is going to do something terrible on our shores So how do you balance as it were the ethical or moral obligation
4:23
to bring people who have come from war zones with the equal ethical and moral obligation
4:28
to protect your own people? Can't get a straightforward answer, but you've got to start by recognising the issue
4:35
And I think that the problem with the way that immigration has been presented, it's been very
4:39
black and white. And it's perfectly possible, as I think lots of wise people say, to hold two
4:44
different things in tension in your head at the same time. And there are different ways of dealing
4:49
with it. I mean, you could take the view, as we have in relation to some countries as opposed to
4:54
other countries, which is you simply say you make it as difficult for them to come as possible. Now
4:58
that happens already. It's easy to come to the UK if you're from France or the USA
5:02
It's much harder to come if you're from Afghanistan. You know, there's not an easy
5:06
these routes. So you could say you would make it much harder for people to come on small boats by
5:10
whatever means. And that's a matter for politics, not within my sort of pay grade. Or you could say
5:16
in recognition of the fact that people who are more likely to get asylum from somewhere like Sudan
5:20
may well have been traumatised, then you need to wrap mental health and medical help around them
5:26
from the first moment. I suggested right at the beginning, perhaps rather glibly, that we need a
5:32
much better screening system for people who are arriving on these shores to assess what they've
5:37
been through and be slower, in a sense, to let them out into the community. Yeah, I think there's
5:44
something in that. I mean, one of the, and I'm just slightly dodging to the different issue
5:48
which is the people who are in the Syrian camps. I mean, my view is that actually we ought to
5:53
allow some people in the Syrian camps back, despite the fact there will be some risk
5:57
One of the difficulties there is that it's quite hard to find a detention regime that would allow you lawfully to bring people who've been in these difficult areas, put them effectively in some sort of detention or constraint so that you can screen them before they're released into the general public
6:14
But I think there's some reasonableness in that if someone's going to come from one of those locations to at least allow society to get a deeper dive into what their needs might be
6:24
Yeah. And you also raise the question that we need to have a wider debate about this, which involves national security as such. How do you see that evolving? Because at the moment, it's a very polarized debate. You know, there are people who are saying all migration bad, all people of the wrong skin color bad. Other people saying, let's keep the borders open. Let's welcome everybody. How do you get a sensible debate
6:46
I think by a conversation like this at the moment. I mean, I'm very worried that if we don't have a
6:53
you and I and others have a sensible debate about this, the extreme voices are going to say, well, the solutions are all colour-based
6:59
The solutions are all religion-based. The solutions are all whatever-based. And there are those voices out there who are tapping away at this issue
7:05
So I know I'm not giving you an answer, but I think let's start talking about it
7:10
One final thing I wanted to raise with you. You have suggested that the fact that we have all seen that terrible video from the streets of North Belfast and we have seen perhaps more than we wanted to and children have
7:22
And in terms of what you know about how people are radicalised for, you know, non-ideological terror violence, you think this is a really big problem that we have to get on to as well
7:34
It's a really big issue. I have sat across the table with a young serving terrorist who described to me in great detail
7:41
and I was very grateful for them doing this, their radicalisation path. And I cannot overstress
7:46
the danger presented by gore and what they call true crime online. So, I mean, I think I'm probably
7:52
fighting a losing argument on this because someone will say this is a historical record. But I mean
7:56
for what it's worth, I haven't seen it. But I understand enough from having heard it described, and I don't intend to see it. And I don't intend my family to see it if I can stop them
8:03
And we should advise everybody to look away as well. Jonathan Hall Casey, thank you very much indeed for joining the programme tonight. Now, as I said, this was not just about Belfast and yet also it was about Belfast. So let's hear next from a Belfast MP, leader of the SDLP, Claire Hanna, who described to me what local families have experienced in the last 48 hours
8:26
I think it been a terrifying experience for families in I suppose the heat of those areas where there was disorder And we know including videos that are circulating widely of doors being kicked in
8:41
homes being burnt and targeting people on the basis of their ethnicity
8:45
on the basis of the colour of their skin or their accent. And I know of families from parts of Africa, families from India, from Ukraine
8:53
and indeed minority ethnic people, you know, of and from Belfast who've been targeted
8:58
So utterly terrifying for them, children. And people just smashing the doors in and then buying down houses
9:03
A mob, a mob. No other word for it. Going door to door, young men masked up and in number, going door to door
9:13
So utterly, sorry. And children affected as well. Children lifted out of their beds to be taken to safety
9:20
My constituency colleagues, our MLA, Matthew Toolan, our Councillor, Donal Alliance, were supporting five different families
9:27
who were literally out on the street as their apartment building had been burnt
9:31
and had nowhere to go and don't know where they'll sleep tonight as well
9:35
But obviously there are wider effects. Anybody of minority ethnic, but not just that
9:40
now anxious to be on the streets. Belfast, I understand. But as it goes down today
9:45
the buses aren't working, aren't running today. Schools have been closed. Health appointments have been cancelled
9:51
because of people's anxiety for being out on the street. And then those who do look or sound different, I'm sure, are very anxious just to be in their own homes tonight in areas that may be affected by this violence again
10:03
I started off by saying this was both a Belfast issue and a not Belfast issue, by which I mean we have seen similar outbreaks of disorder in Dublin
10:12
We've seen them on the English mainland quite a lot, British mainland
10:17
We've seen them all over. But there is also a specific Belfast aspect to this, isn't there
10:22
That's a fair way of putting it. Of course, these are global trends and we know about online agitators who kind of grift about waiting for these trigger events that they can amplify, they can lean into people's fears and use it to divide people and to incite people
10:39
And we saw that happening with some of the big names, shall we say, of that movement
10:44
But you're also right to say it is a Belfast thing as well
10:48
There are there is obviously there has been a culture of violence, of organised disorder
10:54
And it is fair to say we have seen exactly this pattern before just a year ago
10:58
In fact, exactly this week, last year, there were race based riots and attacks, you know, door to door attacks
11:05
And in the town of Ballymena, there was racial violence. in the summer of 2024 as well
11:12
And I suppose there are structural issues around the influence of paramilitarism
11:17
and some of, I suppose, the demographic issues as well. I was going to ask
11:21
do you think that paramilitary leaders were involved in this violence? Well, look, there's a danger of going down that rabbit hole
11:28
that that's the conversation. I think quite clearly, and in the very integrated shared constituency
11:35
that I represent in South Belfast, there are neighbourhoods that are paramilitary influence where there has been
11:40
organised, systematic racist material and targeting of minority families for a long time and on an organised
11:48
level that individuals don't do. The assessment of the PSNI has been that there's been paramilitary
11:54
involvement. I'm not here to tell you that commanders were telling go this way, go that way
12:00
but they have created a culture of fear a culture of violence
12:04
and sometimes of street justice and a culture of I suppose scapegoating
12:08
and targeting a whole community based on the misdeeds. So they may not be directing them
12:16
but they're very happy for young masked men to be going out to do what they did last night
12:21
Well, yes, and as I say, we've seen this movie before. You know, the pattern around sort of scattered protests
12:26
in lots of different neighbourhoods seems to be a kind of a cut and paste
12:31
of what's known as the flags protest in 2011 that both has the function of, you know, pulling police resources in other directions, but also, I suppose, coming from certain communities
12:45
It is also important to say that I suppose the areas where there more houses for rent had traditionally been working class loyalists for example areas And that where a lot of minorities live
12:56
It's also really important that I'm not here to tell you that there's no racism, there's no hatred in Catholic or nationalist communities at all
13:04
Indeed, we saw both communities, as it were, embracing each other after some of this
13:09
Yeah, I think that is a fairly cynical exercise for the cameras
13:14
I don't think there's that much common cause. But there are, you know, fundamentally a seam in Northern Ireland
13:19
has been people who are unable to accept difference and that manifests in different communities
13:23
So what about the use of the border, the Irish border, as a big issue
13:27
Because we've seen it on the unionist side. A lot of people saying this is the problem. People are coming in, in the words of one newspaper today
13:33
through the back door and that's the trouble. I think that's just highly cynical
13:38
I think ultimately, look, we know the kind of the common travel area
13:43
predates all of this. It predates the Good Friday Agreement and there are just tens of thousands
13:48
of people who move across the island every day and of course, you know
13:52
hundreds of thousands of Irish people in Britain and British people in Ireland and long may
13:56
those bonds continue. Yes, there is moving and over the last five or ten
14:02
years of migration you will hear about different flows and different, I suppose, pathways
14:08
but I think it is being cynically used by those who would A, just want
14:12
to find other ways to deflect and distract and talk about immigration, but also those who would be only too glad to have a hardened border on the island of Ireland
14:21
But it is neither pragmatic, nor is it in any way politically plausible
14:25
It just doesn't reflect the way people live on our island. And as I say, many of the same anxieties, much of the same feeling has been evident south of the border as well
14:34
particularly in and around Dublin. Would it be a good idea at this point for Keir Starmer to go to Northern Ireland
14:39
and start to express his feelings about this and start with some of those communities who've been attacked
14:45
I understand there's always kind of, and thankfully one of the positive things
14:49
of the last couple of years has been much better kind of British-Irish, Dublin-London relationships
14:54
And of course, logical things like data sharing to help, you know, for all sorts of reasons
15:00
I think you're right. You spoke about Dublin and of course, parts of Britain as well where, as I say
15:06
both people's, you know, sense of dislocation and hopelessness and maybe concerns around services and all of that
15:14
but very much accelerated and agitated by, as I say, online negative actors who, I say, are looking around
15:23
for the reasons to incite and divide. So, look, it's a big problem to address
15:31
It's not going to be addressed by any one politician going to any one place. We do need to bring some of these tech companies to heal
15:36
in some way to address the algorithms and the fact that it's only one or two
15:40
swipes to get to very dark, very inciting content as well. Very hard to see any upside in any
15:48
of this, but I wonder if were you pleased by the near unanimous
15:52
reaction of all the main party leaders to this? Everybody has pretty much stood
15:56
side by side and said, this is terribly wrong, this can't go online
16:00
Yes, and there was a joint statement from the leaders of mine and the other
16:06
four of the largest parties in Northern Ireland. That has to be in word indeed, Andrew, as well
16:11
because it's easy to say the words, but also to lean into people's fear
16:15
So that has to be real. You have to not just say, you know
16:21
oh, that was terrible, that violence happens. You have to lead and you have to engage with people
16:26
and you have to explain some of the trade-offs that, you know, there isn't a simple button you can push
16:31
that makes everybody's, you know, anxieties and prejudice go away. And you do also have to probably, what we're not very good at doing in Northern Ireland
16:39
because we can say the words, we can say the words that get people onto the street or we can say the words that absolve us of responsibility
16:44
We haven't been great at doing the business of governing. We're not making progress on things like housing and public services and economic opportunities
16:53
And the politics, the fact that it stops and starts, contributes to that sense of powerlessness that people have as well
16:59
So we need to not just do the big political moments. We need to do the day-to-day governing better too
17:04
And everybody will be watching, Claire Hanna. Thank you very much indeed for coming in
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