0:00
Why on earth this dangerous man was able to get his hands on cooking oil and why he was able to have instruments that could make a weapon is beyond belief
0:11
I mean, I don't care what good behaviour he had in prison, quote-unquote, why on earth was he allowed that facility in the first place
0:19
He's in a part of the prison that I read has fewer than 10 people in, people who are considered to be, wait for this, the people who are most influential in terms of extreme ideology
0:31
So we give him cooking tools, do we, and give him cooking oil. He's now attacked three prison officers, two of which are in a very serious condition
0:39
And the third aspect that I want to, I'm very keen to hear your view on, is why on earth, as the Prison Officers Association are calling for, why on earth don't they have stab vests
0:49
I mean, we speak about police having tasers, and I'm all in favour of that, by the way, but they, of course, as a bare minimum, have stab vests. Why is the same not afforded to prison officers? Well, let's speak first with David Shipley, who is a former HMP Wandsworth inmate and journalist and has written a piece in The Spectator today on this very subject. The headline is, how could the HMP Franklin attack happen? Could I ask you that question to start off with, David? Good morning
1:15
Good morning. It's a very important question. I think it would be a mistake to dismiss this as a freak event that couldn't have been avoided. This is the end result of policy choices
1:26
if you look at the whole issue of Islamists and jihadists within our prison system in 2022
1:34
Jonathan Hall Casey produced a really really detailed report on this issue and he described
1:39
a culture where many of these men are part of an Islamist culture that encourages violence towards
1:45
any prison officers any members of the public anyone who isn't part of their group that culture
1:52
is known to exist. And we know, as you've just been saying, that men like Abadi are the most
1:57
dangerous, the most influential. That's why they're separated. It's a choice to give them
2:03
the freedom to have cooking oil and weapons. And remember with Abadi, you said he'd attacked three
2:08
officers. He did that yesterday. In 2020, he attacked an officer at H&P Belmarsh in a brutal
2:13
assault This isn even the first time as a prisoner that he has tried to seriously harm prison officers It a choice to let these men have this freedom and we need to change that
2:25
Yeah, and indeed he had more time added to his sentence, didn't he, after that attack? I mean, Becker's belief that he was in a position where he could do so again
2:31
You write in the article that we should consider this idea of a supermax jail, like they have in the US
2:37
What would that do, in your view? So, in the US, in many states, they have a supermax system
2:42
And in this, prisoners are kept in a single cell. They are not allowed to be able to see outside in a way which would let them know where they are in the jail. They exercise in an inside exercise space. Food is brought to their cells rather than them cooking or preparing it themselves. And they're not allowed really any meaningful association time with other prisoners. And that is a really, really horrible way to be jailed
3:06
But we are talking about a very small number of prisoners, as you said, about 10 at Franklin
3:11
And I think for men who are this dangerous, who we shouldn't ever be releasing, we have to be sensible about it
3:17
Just over a week ago, there were reports that HMP Franklin was full of dangerous jihadists and that they were using a separation centre for various inmates
3:28
The Ministry of Justice said that was completely untrue. Your view on that? Yeah, Matt Dathan did a really brilliant piece of reporting on this, where he broke this story
3:39
And when I did a follow up for The Spectator, the Ministry of Justice were poo-pooing it
3:43
almost saying there's nothing to see here, the governor's told us it's all fine. I doubt anyone from the Ministry of Justice went up to Durham to look at Franklin
3:51
but clearly they do need to now. There's a really lax management culture at the MOJ, and that's another part of the reason these things happen
3:58
And Robert Jenrick says there is a problem with Islamist extremists in UK jails. I take it, and certainly in some jails, you agree with that
4:08
Yeah, it's not just at Franklin. I know a number of men who were prisoners at Belmarsh, which is another jail which holds a lot of Islamists who are particularly dangerous
4:18
And there they saw a culture where young Muslim prisoners who weren't particularly ideological were regularly groomed
4:25
In one case, a man was groomed and very quickly went out and tried to commit a terrorist attack
4:30
So this culture is a real issue. And this shouldn be a shock to anyone in power As I said there a report from 2022 which details all of this So we know what the issues are No one decided to really grapple with it until now Why do prison officers not have stab vests
4:47
It's a good question. I think I'm not convinced stab vests would have protected necessarily from these attacks
4:54
because hot oil being thrown over you and then being stabbed in the neck once you're on the floor
4:59
You know, there's not really a protective effect there. it might be that they're quite difficult and bulky to use in some of the narrow spaces in jails
5:07
I've not heard the Prison Officers Association calling for them, and they're usually quite quick to demand anything which they think will help their members stay safe
5:16
Well, Mark Fairhurst was on LBC yesterday and was calling for just that
5:20
So things may have changed since you've reported on them in the past
5:25
but they are now saying that it should be, particularly when you go into these separation centres
5:30
or parts of the prison where there are inmates like Abadi, that they should have them
5:34
So do you think that will be a live conversation now that the union are calling for that
5:39
I think it will have to be, yes. And I think they're absolutely right in seeking to protect their members
5:44
Thank you very much for your time, David. Much appreciated. Great piece on The Spectator today. How could the HMP Franklin attack happen
5:49
Its author is David Shipley, who's a former HMP Wandsworth inmate and journalist
5:53
Next to Kelvin McKenzie, of course, the former editor of The Sun
5:57
Your reaction to what we heard yesterday, Kelvin, And I take it unsurprised. I'm not surprised
6:04
These people are murderers. They hate our way of life. And actually, they hate us
6:09
And the only way, once you're inside a jail, once you're an Islamist terrorist
6:14
that you can voice and show your anger at the society is to attack prison officers
6:23
And it's only a matter of luck that we're talking today, Henry
6:27
about injuries, serious injuries for two of these officers, and not two or three serious deaths
6:35
That was the object, OK? So we have two issues to face. One was dealt with by your previous speaker
6:41
which is the suggestion of a supermax jail and putting these guys away
6:46
Absolutely, that is an absolute must. Anybody, this guy was convicted of murdering 22 people
6:54
in the Manchester Arena bombing. And by the way another thousand were injured Can you imagine what effect that had across the Manchester community I mean extraordinary And the whole of the UK Here my issue
7:07
Here's my issue. Instead of giving him 55 years as a minimum sentence, which I normally quite like
7:14
and I wouldn't mind it sometimes for shoplifters alone, let alone his men
7:18
Right? Right. Okay. I understand that. Why don't we just bring back, why don't we just have the death penalty, right
7:26
and do two things. It protects our prison officers, right, first of all
7:31
And secondly, it probably protects us if they ever get out on the outside
7:35
I cannot understand our approach. We are so liberal in our country now that literally 22 people can die
7:44
and we don't put the murder away. And secondly, when they try and murder our people, right
7:50
we don't actually say, I tell you what, that is time for us to institute the death penalty
7:56
But Kelvin, should we not just be focusing on making sure the jails work properly and making sure that people are not afforded luxuries like cooking as opposed to resorting to something like the death penalty
8:05
Yes. Look, we say resorting to. I would actually make it a priority rather than make it the end of the line
8:12
There are too many examples of this in our country. So let's just take your first point
8:17
Yes, there was a very serious piece in the Times that addressed by your previous speaker there in which they basically said that these these special units, which used to control the Islamists, now control everybody else
8:33
And the Islamists basically have the run of the jail. And I agree with this former governor, Atchison, who has spoken today, said this is a resignation issue
8:44
This was coming our way. It has now come our way. Can somebody please stand up for the prison officers and also for the 22 people, the families of the 22 people and 1,000 injured in the Manchester Arena bombing
8:58
It was a shocking, shocking, deliberate Islamist act. And actually, all this guy got was he was put in a jail and it gave him an opportunity to kill
9:09
And honestly, this is not going to go away. That man will be a bit of a hero among other people of his kind of thought process in UK jails today
