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After Mark Carney's win in Canada, and the UK-EU's announcement of a “new strategic partnership” amid Trump's tariff war, caller Ksenia phoned James O'Brien to share her thoughts.
She feels that the UK must "trade with everyone we can trade with" as part of a "long term plan to become as militarily independent from the US as possible".
Ksenia, who is from the Balkans, told James that Bosnia is "on the verge of going to war again...when the Bosnian police attemped to arrest Dodik".
She used this, to challenge the perception that NATO has been "successful" in the region. Ksenia also pointed to Afghanistan to ask: "When you intervene in a country, how can you leave things halfway done?"
"There is a superficiality to western diplomacy", she pondered.
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0:00
Karsenia is in Paris. Karsenia, what would you like to say
0:04
Hello. First of all, I would like to say that no, it's not self-aggrandizing for you to say that you're resounding the alarm or to say anything about yourself because I have been in the UK once in my life for a weekend 30 years ago
0:18
I have never been to the UK. I do not follow UK media
0:23
I ran into one of your videos on YouTube and my mouth dropped
0:28
because I just said, is it possible there is somebody in the media
0:33
who has the guts to say these things and to talk like this
0:38
Well, thank you. You haven't been kicked in the head by a horse, have you, Ksenia
0:43
No, no, no. Thank you very much indeed. Absolutely not. That's very kind. Absolutely not
0:47
I actually had a person from London in my house last week, and I said, you know, I listened to this guy
0:53
I didn't even know if LBC was famous, and we were pining over your intellect
0:57
She obviously knew who you were. Oh, stop it. No, no, no. Nothing hit me in the head
1:02
Maybe when I was little, but, you know. So that's not why you picked up the phone today
1:07
Tell me why you picked up the phone today. I picked up the phone because I'm tormented by the same doubts
1:13
and things which you talked about. And I have been coming to the conclusion, especially after the Pope's funeral, where you could see Trump behave himself
1:25
And, you know, I came to this, maybe it's not much of an epiphany, but I still did, that it's not about Trump
1:32
And we shouldn't be talking about what's going to happen when Trump goes away in four or eight years and when he passes because he declares himself king
1:41
It's everything that surrounds him. And he became much differently when he's not in the room with J.D. Vance, who was put there, you know, for him
1:51
He was pushed on him. And these people, we have a much bigger problem on our hands
1:56
And we can know we cannot ignore that. You know, we talk the other time. Georgia Meloni is a fascist
2:03
We cannot ignore the fact that had she been indicted, Marine Le Pen had the best full number
2:11
And we cannot like the world order has definitely shifted. And it's the right with social media, with, you know, freedom of speech being abused to push the worst kind of
2:25
So I don think we can look at the binary world order anymore where we have the West and the East We have to trade with everyone we can trade with And I believe there has to be a long effort to become militarily independent from the U as much as possible
2:49
Because it's not just Trump. What's going to happen in four or eight or however many years when he goes away
2:56
We had a world order after World War II that depended so heavily on America
3:02
It's gone. Yes, it's gone. And maybe it's good that we get this shove in the behind
3:09
to, you know, get over ourselves. Yes, I mean, it's a little early for silver linings
3:14
but if there are to be any, that would be one. I mean, the geopolitical reality of over-reliance
3:21
I think sometimes we overlook the fact that America both wanted and encouraged and created the environment in which over-reliance
3:28
upon the United States became. Which they are now complaining about. Yes, exactly that. And their
3:33
status on the world stage depends upon the over-reliance and the Pax Americana. So it's a
3:38
typical Trump tactic, really, to use the things that he professes to despise to attack the things
3:44
that give him the power to attack the things he professes to despise. But I don't want to
3:48
overcomplicate it. Let me just nod you back, if I may, because I understand what you're saying
3:52
about the future and that question about how long does Trumpism last after Trump is going to concern
3:58
us for probably the rest of our... It's not Trumpism, James. It's Project 2025. One of the authors..
4:04
But you're separating the two. You're separating the two. Because I think he's their tool. I think
4:10
he's their vessel. I don't think he has the cognitive ability to know what the heck he's doing
4:17
I honestly don't think... And that gives you hope. The man can't string the sentence together
4:21
And that gives you hope. No, it's not because once he goes away, these people will have enough power to meet him
4:27
Yeah, so that's why we have to recalibrate everything, really, in expectation of the future, whether he's in it or not
4:35
Well, in that case, I mean, in that case, why would Starmer or Macron not be more like Carney
4:40
Why would they not call out Trump's position much more robustly than they currently have done
4:47
I don't think they have been attacked. in a robust way in which Canada has been attacked
4:53
So I think that gives them more leeway to be diplomatic. I mean, look at the moment when Macron pushes Trump
5:02
and Zelensky together the way he does it with so much charm
5:06
I mean it gives you wiggle room for more diplomacy because Trump especially when you get him alone away from his syncophancy and you flatter him enough you can do whatever you want with him
5:19
There's a thought. But something that I would like to add, and that's a bit of a more generic outlook
5:28
Look, I come from the Balkans, and I believe that, and it also hits something that you said a couple of days ago about NATO and how it was successful in the Balkans, for instance
5:39
Well, Bosnia is on the verge of going to Oregon. Yes. They almost started firing a few days ago when the Bosnian police attempted to arrest Dodik
5:52
So there is a superficiality to Western diplomacy. I have seen that in Montenegro. I have seen that in Serbia
6:02
You know, whenever the Western media talks about strongmen in Europe, they never mention Buttigieg
6:09
No, that's very true. I mean, we have a bit. I've got a regular caller who advises the government in Montenegro who's helped us out a couple of times on this
6:17
But you're right. I mean, our focus is elsewhere at the moment
6:22
And all diplomacy is temporary. Which is fine, which is fine, but it's very short-sighted
6:28
Afghanistan, too, okay, we knew that the West was going to have to pull out at one point
6:33
but how did you pull out leaving the Taliban? I read the other day there was like a story that they're contemplating a new kind of burqa
6:43
where the woman can only look through. Things have to be brought to the end
6:50
Like when you intervene in a country, you cannot leave things halfway done
6:56
You cannot just go halfway. And that's what keeps on happening. And I believe that a new world order is no longer binary, where we have just west, just east, having each other's back because it's not working anymore
7:11
It's economically unsustainable. and where we have to invest in a diplomacy
7:18
that is more sensitive to what happens on the ground, that truly understands conflicts in which it gets involved
7:28
and carries things to the end. If that makes sense. I don't know
7:33
No, it makes absolutely perfect sense. And we're back to silver lining territory, aren't we
7:39
If by tearing up the old order, Donald Trump creates an environment in which a new and better order can be constructed along the lines that you described then we can look back in 20 years time and breathe a sigh of relief Ksenia
7:54
Well, I think maybe that world order was already gone, but he made it evident
8:01
or maybe he just pushed it over the cliff and he was hanging there for a while
8:07
Do you think Trump is trying to... I don't know whether you like this verb
8:11
but it is a common one in geopolitical conversations. Do you think Trump is trying to balkanize the whole of Europe
8:20
What do you mean by balkanize? I mean, well, no, turn constituent parts against each other
8:28
Yeah, not necessarily into war, but into instability and disunity. I don't know
8:36
Maybe. It's a lot to think about. It's an excellent question. We have right now the Butrich and the Serbs trying to ethno-federalize Montenegro
8:47
Well, Bosnia is already ethno-federalized. So, you know, I just, I'm very scared of this lack of acceptance that we're seeing around the world right now
9:01
People are so scared of migrants, but we forget that all of history was marked by migrations
9:08
And we behave like this is a new phenomena. and now we're all, you know, suddenly threatened by this
9:14
Well, it's partly the thing I alluded to earlier. It's because the people who are determined to talk endlessly
9:19
about migration and migrants are the people who actually encourage the population to either vote or support all of the things
9:25
that have caused the much bigger and wider problems. It's time for the news
9:30
Well, they put them in a situation... I apologize, I'm going to finish immediately. No, I've got to go to the news
9:34
They put them in a situation where they got to run away. Of course. And go to other countries. Well, you mentioned Afghanistan already
9:40
Thank you so much. No, don't go yet. Don't go yet, because you began by saying some very nice things about me
9:45
So I want to read some of the messages that have come in while you were talking. In fact, it's the same message from several different people
9:51
Dave says, give this woman a job. Karen says, give her a show. This lady is a superb contributor, says Neil
9:58
My God, James, it's taken a caller into your station to actually explain what is happening
10:02
She's 100% correct. Oh, my God. I love this caller, says Sheena
10:07
And on it goes. So thank you. Thank you. I would love to have a show, but I would need a visa for the UK because I'm from the Balkans, so it's not easy
10:16
There you go. Real life. Bringing it home at the end to the reality of lived experience. It's 11 o'clock
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