WATCH: John McTernan says those opposing Digital ID cards 'are not Labour voters'

But Tornan, that was a new Keir Starmer, I think

wanting to fight reform. The Tories are nowhere. Yeah, look, I think Keir really named it

The Tories are gone. The real opposition in the country is reform. And you've got to take on reform in your own way

So you can't keep fighting with reform on their turf. So digital ID cards, I think, is an idea whose time has come

It's an idea that always tests well with the public. And it's one that Nigel Farage is going to go, no, don't do that

So it's a good wedge to be, we're for security. We're for making sure that people who are working here are working legally

And Nigel Farage is going on about civil liberties and Big Brother. And I think that's a great place for Labour to be

So there are now two ways, aren't there, to tackle illegal migration at the election. ECHR withdrawal, probably recommended by the Tories and certainly by Reform UK

And Labour, which is ID cards. Those are the two ways to tackle illegal migration

Those are two ways, but there's also a context, which is there was a speaker today who talked about Joe Biden's successful strategy towards the end

which was a safe route for people to apply from other countries

and then absolutely sending back to the countries they came from everybody who then didn't come on a safe route

And that, I think, is the vision behind the France deal, the vision behind the Germany deal

And so you could see an emerging European Union deal, which is no one comes across the channel and gets in

Come across the channel, you get sent back. But if you come here, you get an ID and if you get to stay

I think that sense of we know the boundaries are being securely patrolled

You used the word squeamish. The left has been too squeamish to talk about things that bother people like migration That quite a big word isn it for the left to admit that Look it a big word And he was also admitting in a sense that the Labour Party hadn been in the debate for 14 years during the Tory government the Labour Party were on the edges

not sure under its leadership what it should be saying what it should be doing and I think some things people are squeamish about is state control

the ID cards can be opposed because it's a form of big state control

but it's state control to make us safe and I think one of the key themes of Keir today was

he's been providing security abroad through the increased NATO. Would he worry about the 700,000 people signing a petition against digital ID

and all those on the small state side, the civil liberties group, saying this is outrageous

The thing to do in politics is pick a fight. And if you pick a fight, you will split people

And we're not looking for votes from those people, by and large. We're looking for votes from people

It's a common-sense approach. It will make sense. It will give us more security

So he won't care because they won't vote Labour? Well, he will like there being a fight because people keep talking about it

If people don't oppose it, no one knows there's any news going on. But people keep talking about it

Are you for the digital ID card? Oh, I've not heard about that. And I think it's got the attraction, the deep attraction

and then the access to public services and the efficiency of public services

that you can build on top of it are important too. But those concerns are big state

Big state controlling our data and knowing where we are? I think that's a very minority view in the country to be..

The Big Brother watch people. I was on the radio with one of them this morning. They sound paranoid

If you're a good citizen, a normal citizen, what have you got to fear

Thank you. There we have it. That's John Burton there defending this move on ID cards

And the gloves are really off, it seems, between Sir Keir Starmer and Nigel Farage