0:00
Webber, the mother of Barnaby Webber, who lost his life, was killed in the Nottingham attacks
0:05
joins me now. Lovely to see you, Mrs Webber. I should also point out that the other victims
0:09
were Grace O'Malley Kumar and Ian Coates. And you, along with their families, have been
0:15
well, frankly, really taking the authorities to task at the Nottingham inquiry. You haven't
0:20
given evidence yet, but you've been giving a very useful running commentary on your social media
0:25
You're up in the stand on Wednesday. Some of the revelations so far, just for objective observers
0:33
have been absolutely horrifying. Let's start with the revelation that Calicane was not sectioned
0:41
because there were concerns that too many black people had been sectioned and it wouldn't look great
0:47
When you first heard that, what was your reaction? It's just disgust, isn't it
0:52
I think why would colour, ethnic minority come into anything like that
0:59
if you're dangerous to yourself? But almost more importantly, if you're dangerous to the public
1:05
then you're dangerous and you're not there to tick a box for somebody
1:11
We've heard the word stigma. The university used that as well. And I think we also, I think, shockingly heard reference to race minority from the Calacane family's barrister on the last day, last week on Friday
1:29
That's a distraction that can't happen about this, because this is about how our police forces, how our hospitals and our services are failing
1:38
Yes. Irrespective of what colour you are. Yes. And what background you are
1:42
That said that to me. Yeah, long, long answer, but it was distasteful and disgusting, really
1:48
Let's speak about the police failings that have been identified so far
1:52
So we learned that a warrant was issued for his arrest. This is after Calicane had attacked an emergency worker There was a history of violence there We heard from the former Chief Constable of Nottingham Kate Maynall
2:06
she's since retired, and I'll get your view on that in just a minute, that the warrant went into an inbox that wasn't regularly monitored
2:14
and that it was a mistake that they hadn't issued an arrest warrant for Calicane
2:20
And she's apologised. Do you accept that apology? Of course not. No. And what I found very irritating, and I've said this publicly
2:31
and it happened again in the opening statements from all of the core participants
2:35
barristers, was unreserved apologies and condolences. And we call that the copy and paste because it's anything but that
2:43
And I don't care because that actually makes it worse, really, than better
2:50
What we just want is the truth and we want the answers and we want the accountability
2:54
We want the miscarriage of justice addressed. And then we need to get that proper fundamental formative change in this country and improvements
3:02
As far as you're concerned, what is the truth that the police and other authorities
3:06
including those that released Calacane into the community, were negligent and in fact criminal
3:15
Yeah, I think our views, I always try to keep things relatively simple because the scale of failure that we've experienced
3:24
that Barney, Grace and Ian and the three survivors have experienced throughout is on such a level
3:31
that it's complex and it's so far reaching. But essentially every single organisation
3:36
every single institution, every single decision maker within any of those failed
3:43
And they failed and they got it wrong. And it wasn't just one mistake that led to this tragedy
3:48
It was repeated failures over years and years. And he was not managed he was not treated he was not dealt with he was not apprehended The university failed the two police forces have failed two hospital trusts have failed Yes And the CPS themselves have failed
4:07
And there's so much we could go into, but I think it's essentially, at every single level, at every single juncture, there's failures
4:15
but there's still a lack of accountability and ownership and honesty. But that's what this inquiry is meant to do
4:21
and I fear that it'll come out with some kind of lessons-must-be-learned response
4:25
which isn't going to be adequate for you or Grace or Ian's families
4:29
No, that's not going to happen. We were told so many times that we would never get an inquiry
4:36
Then we were told, well, it won't be a statutory inquiry, and there's a significant difference between the two
4:41
And here we are. We've got a huge statutory inquiry that I think in its scope
4:48
of all of the institutions and organisations involved is, I can't find one in history larger
4:54
Yes. And that is not reflective of this one-off tragedy. That's reflective of a much deeper problem in our society
5:01
And we have to root out the rot and we have to address it
5:05
It's time to stop finger-pointing and lessons learning and putting dusty reports on shelves
5:11
And actually stop it happening. Again, just some of the other kind of moments of bungling
5:16
that have been identified just for those who haven't been across it. The fact that no drugs tests were carried out
5:22
which might have suggested that Calicane was under the influence of drugs and then knowingly doing what he was doing
5:28
as opposed to this diminished responsibility defence that he gave to manslaughter rather than murder
5:33
The fact that too many junior officers were working on the case for both Leicestershire and Nottinghamshire police
5:40
And then we have this issue around a police officer this week revealing that many of the coppers did think it was murder
5:47
not manslaughter, that he had intent, which is something you've argued from the very beginning
5:51
This is critical because we now have Calacane in a secure hospital rather than a prison I assume you want him to be in a prison Yeah we want It a miscarriage of justice And it as we believe more and more will be revealed
6:07
There was an utter over-reliance on expert doctors, and they are on the stand, I think, a week on Monday
6:16
It was pretty much... Their word was law, and that was taken. And, well, I don't want to go into too much detail
6:21
about our concerns and criticisms, particularly of the CPS barrister. And that will all come out
6:30
One simple example shows how gross all of this failure is. We've insisted as families in our dealings with the IOPC who also are not fit for purpose
6:39
but we've insisted and fought for them to rebuild what's called the niche system
6:43
And the niche system is essentially what the police forces use to record all interactions with people
6:48
And you put a name in and information comes up with regards to any interaction
6:54
It's not just when they've been charged. It's interactions and occurrences. We were looking. So this has been rebuilt
7:00
And this is what I think has caught so many of them out because it is clear when you look at his name, his date of birth
7:08
there's 45 individual occurrences with him from 2020 onwards. And there's no excuse, no matter how junior you are or how busy you are
7:21
if you can't get the basics right and put somebody's name in
7:25
and bother to actually record and look at what's written, and this is where one of the Leicestershire officers
7:33
it so upsets me because she said she's been caught up because it's been recognised that she accessed that niche system twice
7:41
once for 30 seconds and once for 40 seconds, but she said she didn't see the information
7:46
And that's eyes wide shut, isn't it? But that is sort of emblematic of the whole thing
7:50
Yeah. Unfortunately, Emma, we need to leave it there. We wish you the very best on Wednesday. Your bravery is so admirable
7:55
Tune in. We're going to be live, public stream on Wednesday morning. We'll be covering it too on GB News, so thank you very much
