Chopper's Political Podcast episode 77 - Matthew Stadlen and Jack Sellers - WATCH IN FULL

Coming up on Choppers Political Podcast

Can I just point out to any viewers who might be concerned for my physical health

I have not been punched in full head. Welcome back to Choppers Political Podcast

where I bring you the best guest gossip, news and stories from our studios at GB News in the heart of Westminster

My name is Christopher Hope and I'm our political editor here. We're one week away from the budget and between briefs, leadership challenges and escaped prisons

it's been a difficult time for this government in the past fortnight

But as we see on Monday this week, the saviour of this Labour government

the Home Secretary, Shibamana Mahmood, although annoyed the Speaker, and lots of things do when things are briefed

she unveiled a massive shake-up of the UK's asylum system. It was a punchy statement where she didn't hold back

And she said this in her own words. Let me tell her, I couldn't care less what any other political party has to say about these matters

I don't care what other politicians are saying on the television. I don't care what other activists are saying either

I care about the fact that I have an important job to do and I can see that there is a problem here that needs to be fixed

If it was possible to pretend there wasn't a problem because there was a one, I wouldn't be saying there is one

There is a genuine problem in this asylum system and we need someone to sort it out, not to pretend it doesn't exist, which I'm afraid is one of the things that fuels the division in the first place

My own constituents, since I have been Home Secretary, have been telling me directly of abuses in the visa system that they can see with the evidence of their own eyes long before any officials in my tool have ever clocked on to those things

It is a moral responsibility when you see something broken to fix it and to make sure that the fact that it's broken is not fueling division in our country

And let me also say to her, it is Green Party politicians who are absolute hypocrites because they talk great language in here and then oppose asylum accommodation in their own constituencies

Now, hours later, I sat down with the Home Secretary, Siobhan Amu

to try and help GBD's viewers and listeners understand how she might be getting a grip on this vitally important issue

arguably electorally defining issue for Labour. I'm pleased to be joined today on Chopper's political podcast

by the political commentator and the former BBC and LBC presenter, Matthew Stadlin, and Jack Sellers

who was closely allied to Rishi Sunak who worked with him when he was trying to stop the boats in number 10

Welcome to you both. Thanks for coming on this podcast. Let's go through that interview there with Shabana Mahmood

I started by asking her this about what she said in the chamber

You said something shocking, I thought, in the House of Commons chamber tonight

You're addressing a question from a white Lib Dem MP. You said, I wish I had the privilege of walking around the country and not seeing the division that the issue of migration and asylum system is creating across this country

Unlike him, you said, unfortunately, I'm the one who's regularly called an F-ing P word and told to go back home

It is I who knows through my personal experience and that of my constituents just how divisive the issue is of asylum in our country

Are you sick of well-meaning white people not addressing the issue of immigration because they can't walk in your shoes

Well, look, the point I was making in the chamber and the argument that I will be making all over the country is

I can see that this issue is dividing people across our country

It is not an issue just of white people rejecting migration or asylum seekers

I see my own constituents deeply worried about the community tensions and a system that is out of control and is unfair

So the concern about migration is something that is shared by British people of every background, of all race, ethnicity in this country

And I think that that should be acknowledged because you have to acknowledge what people are thinking

It's wrong to say people feel that way when it's actually true. They are responding to facts. They can see a broken system because the system is in fact broken

The pace and scale of change that we have seen has put communities under pressure

And I think it is the job of politicians, mainstream politicians, to come up with answers to the problems that the public rightly see are happening in this country

Jack Sellers, were you surprised by the way she used that term, this term effing P word

I mean, that is extraordinary to hear that in the chamber. I know that Richie Sunak used it, didn't he

Yeah. When he was running for the election. And that EQ was shocking. Yeah, no, I remember this fondly, actually, on the election campaign

At the time, there was that sort of Channel 4 expose, which sort of was following reform candidates, I think, around in the southeast somewhere

And they were knocking doors. And, you know, there were lots of sort of racist comments coming from the candidates, I think, themselves and some of the people, some of the voters on the doors

And, you know, they're overheard as reform campaigns, but whether in the day of reform was disputed

Yeah, it was disputed. But even so, that language was used. Yeah, no, the language you, and Rishi was deliberating on whether to do this

You could see he was visibly upset. And the day after the documentary aired, we were in a school

And that makes sense. But the backdrop and the context of that changes it

But Rishi thought about it long and hard, and he thought it was completely unacceptable

And he wanted to show people. He wanted to stand up against this and show people quite what people are saying

that you wanted to have cut through, you know, so that people are actually listening to her, that this is not acceptable in society

And I think Shabana was doing something quite similar in many ways. You know, she was trying to neutralise these arguments against her

of her being, not necessarily being called racist, but, you know, these elements of racist policy and other things

I think she was just trying to neutralise that to say, you know, how can you say that to me, of all people

And Matthew Southern, she told us there, didn't she, that she sees her own constituents deeply worried

about the tensions in communities. it's not a white people rejecting migration or asylum seekers is everyone concerned about it

but to see her as someone of of of Pakistan heritage saying that to um uh someone saying

why are you doing this a green party or lib dem saying that in that language it really made the

point didn't it there's a problem for all of our communities in this country i think what shabana

is trying to do and using that awful language which was shocking to hear it also within the sort of

bastion of our democracy. I think what she's trying to do is to sell these pretty radical

reforms on how we treat refugees. So in other words, how we treat people whose asylum seeking

has been vindicated, people who actually do become a refugee, having been an asylum seeker

These are radical reforms. I think she's selling this as a way to unite the country

and in order to do that she needs to bring both right and left with her and one of the problems

she faces because you say everyone is concerned about this not everyone is concerned about the

number of asylum seekers coming into this because she should be here's her point well it is indeed

but what she's trying to do to bring those on the left or some of those on the left with her

is to say look i'm certainly not a fascist don't use language like that to me if you're thinking

about it I someone who has been called an effing P word And so I am well placed to understand the challenges we face in this country as someone from an ethnic minority background myself

She was worrying about rising tensions wasn't she? I mean was she almost you know concerned about

well-meaning maybe white people who don't think it should be addressed but she's seen the tensions

in her communities Jack Sellers isn't she and saying we have to deal with this? Yeah no absolutely

I think there's people on the left, right, who just, it is a small proportion these days, I would say, who want to completely ignore that this is an issue out there

They don't want to sort of talk about it. And I think that she's sort of getting ahead of herself here, right

She's sort of looking down the line and noticing that there is a faction of her party who are likely going to be very upset about this

You saw the MP for Folkestone, I think, on the weekend coming out against it. And there was many more on the record

Around 20 or so. around 20 or so. This is on the record. This is not even the background of the moment of the

conversation. So she's trying to get ahead of that, trying to demonstrate to these people that no longer can we not talk about this. No longer is this a bogey issue. Let's address it up front

It's not just those within her own party, though. And she struck me from something that she said

reasonably confident that she can carry the parliamentary Labour Party with them

That may turn out not to be right. It's also people to the left of her own party or people

who have abandoned Labour, people who are joining Zach Polanski's Green Party. Zach Polanski

I think with his leadership, is being much more open-armed, isn't he, in his attitude towards

asylum seekers. So there is a real political risk now for Labour, not just to the right

not just to reform, which has been consistently leading the opinion polls, but also to the left

Can she triangulate? Is she the woman, as I say, as someone who is not just from an ethnic minority

background but is from a Pakistani British background and there has been a lot of focus

on British Pakistanis in recent times some of it in in my view openly racist or or bigoted

the grooming gang scandal the way that that is at times been taken advantage yes yes look the

grooming gangs were acts of evil evil sorry as of course is all form are all forms of child abuse

My point is that two things can be true at the same time. You can get the acts of evil of the grooming gangs

which absolutely needs to be called out. But at the same time, clearly there are figures on the extreme right

who wish and have always wished to exploit that reality. Do we get brilliant to mention the race that perpetrated the grooming gangs

I don't think so if race is part of it, and also if race is a barrier to stopping the grooming gangs

What I'm just saying here is that she is perhaps uniquely placed as someone to make this triangulation

someone from a British Pakistani background. OK. I went on an interview to ask Shabana Mahmood about how she felt about some parties and politicians

opposing asylum accommodation and how that would how that really addressed the crisis over over small boats

And here's what she said. You talked about the Green Party being absolutely hypocrites because they talk great language in this chamber

and then they oppose asylum accommodation. You're tired, are you, then, of politicians who fight your controls on migration

and then don't want the results of under-control migration in their areas

Look, I think there are some people in politics today who think you can either ignore the problem

and just assert that it's not there and that somehow it's made up, it's misinformation, fake news

and if you just don't talk about it, it will somehow go away. There are others who will speak the language of inclusion and support for diversity

which I also agree with, but who will then not look to any solutions for the problems that we face

So they will shut down any possible solution and then therefore have, they are hypocrites because they have nothing else to offer

What I am offering is a genuine set of proposals that can fix the broken system that we have

and retain public consent for us having an asylum system at all

That is the way that I think sensible mainstream politicians should approach these issues

because we can see the problems they're causing in our communities and it's our job to fix it

So Jack Shell is there. She's saying it should be a mainstream political issue

It is for the frustrations. I think we, our viewers have felt it to a degree that you're far right if you're worried about migration

And she says it shouldn't be a far right issue. It's an issue of everybody. Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, that's exactly what she's trying to do here now

You know, she does. She and I think there was I can't remember the exact comments afterwards, but she got into the topic of conversation about Tommy Robinson

I can't remember how it came up. I saw it in an interview. But essentially what you were saying was this issue has been hijacked by these people for too long and they're making it into a real, real protest issue on the ground, on the streets, if people are protested

If we don't do something about it, us, the euphoric class, a centrist in the middle, trying to tackle this issue for normal people, then we will see more people out on the streets protesting outside asylum hotels and the like

So I think there are different things going on. Clearly, Labour recognises, as I've already said, there is a political threat from the right

So the politics of it. Can you win an election? Now, she says that nothing is more important, really, than fixing a sort of disunited country

So winning an election is not more important than uniting the country

I mean, she would say that, wouldn't she? Yes. But there are different things going on. One is the politics and trying to grip that

And the other is the reality. And what is the reality? and people have very different views on that

My own view is that we are at an inflection point, almost an existential point in this country

We, in our relatively, and I stress that word relatively because there are plenty of people who are really hard up against it in our country

born in this country, but we are relatively wealthy compared to a lot of other parts of the world

and we are not ravaged by war. And in the form of what is described as this migration or asylum crisis

our way of living is coming hard up against arguably for the first time in this way the

fact that there are lots of people in the world who are much worse off than us and the question is

how do we defend what is ours our relative wealth and also a form of cultural identity

and national identity yeah against the understandable desires of people from not just

war ravaged countries, but very poor countries, who would, and we might want to do the same if

we were in their position, come to our country for a better life. How much of our values are we

prepared to sacrifice in order to stop that happening? So people are saying, people of

critics will say too much, too much to be given away to accommodating people arriving here and

we're losing touch with our British culture. And that may be driving the raise the flag campaign

than parts of this country. Yeah, but I mean, obviously what we were seeing in some of the stats

just to tackle the point is that a lot of these people, there are elements

of people coming from war-torn countries, Afghanistan, Syria at the time, which obviously now

is in a bit of a different place, but also some of the highest stats we were seeing were places like Albania

and other things. And I think what the feeling of people across the country

I'm from Kofili where there was a by-election recently and it's certainly there, people feel it

even though there's not high levels of the situation, with impact in there, which is quite weird, the sort of disparage it

But what people are seeing and feeling is that their standard of life and

everything you said is absolutely right But their standard of life is tough You know energy bills and other things are going through the roof And there obviously dire public finances and battles over health spending and other things which people want to see improved

Then you're also seeing people come across on boats from places like Albania or Vietnam or whatever

And then vast amounts of money being spent on maintaining them and keeping them here. OK, Jack, as I went on to ask her about if she's worried about civil unrest, and she said this

You talk of the pale and scarce of change, destabilising communities. Are you worried about civil unrest unless you can get these changes and make them stick

I mean, I think we've seen some civil unrest already in our countries

I know that, you know, we regularly see protests outside hotels. I think there have been some near misses on attacks on hotels

I think all of that move towards disorder and violence is deplorable and is completely unacceptable

and I would expect all of our people to obey the law of our land

and it will always be enforced. But what I can see happening is division

Anger and resentment can turn to hate. It's a human frailty and I can see this happening in our country

It's my job to stop that drift towards hate, to offer people solutions that can work

that can dissipate the anger and the resentment they're feeling and that can build their public confidence in having an asylum system

and also unlocking what I believe is the true generosity of the British people

because we will always want to help those who are truly in need. Absolutely, absolutely

So there you have it. She's saying anger and resentment can turn to hate. But Matthew Satherin, is the government doing the right thing here

They are obviously tackling the issue of small boats, illegal migration, but isn't the so-called Boris wave, the numbers arriving here

isn't that also part of the issue? And that's not addressed in this policy. And we'll cover the details shortly

So net migration has been coming down very substantially recently. We've seen that in the last year or so

And there is a real risk of a conflation between legal migration

and then asylum and irregular or illegal, however you choose to describe it

I think they're calling it legal now, not irregular. Those two things, Chris, can be conflated and by some deliberately conflated

My view is we obviously cannot take an unlimited number of people

even from war-torn parts of the world. How could we? We can't accommodate that

Unless you think we should live in a world without borders. If you believe in the nation-state, you have to have borders

Brexit was about borders. But it becomes very difficult because there is an inherent contradiction

in what the government policy has been recently, and to some extent still is

The policy is to stop people getting here by boat and through other irregular or illegal means

But once people get here, we can't easily remove them. Remove them

And is that all the problem? We can't remove them at all unless, if you're Nigel Farage

you decide you want to do a deal with the Taliban. And this Labour government..

Oh, hang on. Well, he does. He would need to do a deal with the Taliban to send Afghans who shouldn't be here

and some are perfectly reasonably illiterate, perfectly legitimately here. He wants to be able to send them back to Afghanistan

And if they get tortured or killed, he's been very clear, That's not our problem. So although I accept that we cannot take an unlimited number of people here, how do we not only stop the boats from coming in the first place, but if they do come, how do we remove people if there are too many people here without compromising on core values such as not handing them over to torture

And is the answer, Jack Sellers wrote the Rwanda plan? Oh, you take him to a third country and leave him there

That's what the toy of looking at doing. Yeah, look, the thing about Shubhan Amin Mood's package this week

which is very, very strong, let's be honest. It is very, very strong. But the issue which needs tackling the public's mind

whilst everyone is concerned about high levels, top level, legal migration and other things, just the overall amount

the main emotive sort of priority is boats, right, in front of you

Is this package going to stop boats? I'm not sure because it's not a there's not an immediate deterrent right in front of you

Essentially, this package still says to people, you come here and be here for 20 years. Well, we'll come to the numbers in a second. I then went on to ask about how she will get past

the biggest issue here on the whole plan, which is probably her own backbenchers

Maybe two dozen, roughly two dozen are out there attacking it publicly

So-called lefty lawyers. Here's what you have to say. How do you stop these so-called, in quotes, lefty lawyers, maybe your own backbenchers, 16 of them already attacking your plans, from unpicking what you're trying to do

Well, look, I think politics is about making an argument. That's what I did in the House today

Not everybody will agree, but I think what we did see in the House today was wide support from my colleagues sitting behind me for these proposals

I believe that that wide support is there in the Parliamentary Labour Party. It's there in the Labour Party. And I believe, more importantly, it's there in the country

That is what I think will make sure that these reforms are realised and ultimately will be my job to make sure I can implement these reforms and deliver for the British people

So, Matthew Shatham, the issue for Shabana Mahmood isn't necessarily in front of her because the Tories are supporting her plans, we're told, until there's the detail, although reform won't interestingly yet, it seems

But behind her, where there was lots of critics on the back benches of the Labour Party, why is that? And is that a worry

As I've said, I think Shabana Mahmood is confident that she can get this through

And I suspect, and I think, haven't we heard that the Conservatives would help drive these three parliaments

I don't think there is a government passing legislation based on opposition support. It's not ideal, but it's a weak government

Well, it depends how many Labour MPs would vote against it. And that needs to come out in the wash. We have to wait and see

In other words, they want to have it. Well, they clearly feel they need to have it

So I suspect these reforms will, and I've been talking to the Home Office, there's a lot of detail that needs to be ironed out on this

Just to return very briefly to the Rwanda plan, I was against it in principle because I don't think that a country where a president gets 99% of the vote is going to be a safe country or a sensible country to be sending people to who themselves often are vulnerable

And I also didn't think it would work in practice. And I still maintain I don't think Rwanda would work

That's clearly the government's view, even if you hear some suggestions that perhaps some in government might be regretting dropping the route

Well, America doing it now, aren't they? Jack Sellers, not everyone's against it. Yeah, no, for me, that was the thing

Look, Labour should have, if they were serious about this, Starm would give loads of language about smashing the gangs

He should have run with this and see how far he got. It would have been pretty much a win-win for him

If the policy failed on its own merits and rights and there was legal challenges, he could say, well, look, the Tories problem didn't work

but he could have sort of let it try and if it did work right he's got this instant deterrent i'm

pretty sure off the back of that if if illegal migrants knew that as soon as they arrive on the

shores they would be detained and then taken to rwanda while this while it's all processed i'm

pretty sure deported actually deported yeah i'm pretty sure the numbers would have come down it's

an instant sort of deterrent i think is it possible to win an election a general election

while the boats are still coming in the sorts of numbers they are coming there were clearly

different reasons the conservatives and rishis unit lost the last election and i suspect they

didn't lose it because there was any great love for starmer or labor and they'd been in power for

14 years but i think that one of the reasons they lost was because of the boats and i think it will be difficult for for labor to win outright it be very difficult for them to win outright anyway but it will be particularly difficult for Labour to win outright in the next election if the boats don stop

Rishi Sunak made himself a hostage to Fortune by basically telling us he was going to stop the boats

Shubhana Mahmood has now said in an interview with you, Chris, that we should judge her on her record

Now, that's a perfectly reasonable thing for us to do, and we'd be judging her on her record anyway

but she has now said those words. And that means that if the boats do not stop in any serious way by the next election, that makes it politically extremely difficult for the government

Do I think that if Labour fail, that Farage will ride into power and sort out the boats? No, I don't

He thinks he will. Of course, if he will. Because if I say he will, yeah. Hello, I'm Bev Turner

Now, it can feel like the money in our bank accounts at the moment does not keep up with the cost of living

And maybe there's a solution. I'm here today with the CEO of Tally Money, Cameron Parry

Cameron, what is Tally Money? Well, Bev, with Tally Money, you get a current account and a debit card

but instead of pounds, you use milligrams of gold as your everyday money

So why gold? Gold traditionally is a great store of value. It has, on average, gone up at over 11% per annum for the last 25 years against the pound

It's tripled in value in the last decade. And in the last two years alone, it's increased by 50% against the pound

Banks' savings products just can't compete with that level of growth. But this isn't just about gold

This is about a currency that you guys have created at Tally Money

Explain it to me as though I'm an idiot. So, look, people need to be able to hold their earnings and build their savings in a money that retains its value

and remains in their legal control and remains theirs to access away from government control

Great. You had me at not exposed to government control. You should feel safe and happy with your money. You should have peace of mind. The more money you

see in your bank balance, and that's the type of thing we're trying to deliver, and give people choice in the type of money they get to use every day

Brilliant. Thank you so much, Cameron. Thank you. What one point to you though, Jack Sellers, I was talking to a very, very senior person, number 10

and they were trying to game out what you would do in July last year. And they thought that Ricky Sunak would have called, would have, should have called

or maybe would have called the election on the tarmac, it stands there, next to a plane

and pointed at the plane and saying, vote for me. And that plane takes off on day two of my new elected term as prime minister

full of migrants being sent from here under the Rwanda plan. Why did you go early on the election and not wait to see if your big idea would have worked

Because by not doing it, and I was there in number 10 at the press conference on the Saturday after the Thursday election to hear Keir Starmer axe the plan and with hundreds of millions of our taxpayers' money

I think on the Rwanda point, while it all sounds nice sort of visually. Wait until it worked

There's two things here. One, I announced it before the summer visually Rwanda in the background

I think the public had completely lost trust in us on this at that point

So I don't think necessarily... I regained it had you made it work. So that's a question of then why didn't we wait until after the summer

and see if Randall would have kicked in. But there's a high possibility. This is no news here, but there's a high possibility

that as soon as the legislation was passed, that there would still potentially be legal challenges

and they had to be ironed out. So it wouldn't have worked after all. No, there is that, but that's not the reason. It was the reason for calling the election before the summer

as far as I'm aware, there was a combination of different things. The public needed to make their mind up now on a load of huge issues

immigration being one the economy being another um and and you know we were cornered in many ways

politically just because after the summer there was a very limited time you could do it and you know labor party would be saying oh look they're squatting in number 10 or whatever so

it was the only time we could try and catch people by surprise what we did um but a lot of the awkward

things debating with you and it's it's uh it's a privilege to be debating with you at that you're

at the heart of number 10 it's fascinating to get your insights but one of the issues and we're all watching i imagine prime minister's questions today is that the person asking the questions

as the leader of the Tory party. And really, if you look at the polls, it should be

and I'm not saying that constitutionally we've got it wrong or whatever, but realistically, it should be Nigel Farage

So we've got Nigel Farage with his four MPs sitting in the sort of distant background

and Kemi Badenoch asking the questions. And one of the reasons why reform

have been so consistently and quite significantly ahead in the polls up to this point is clearly to my mind

because of the immigration. But I would say this, and Shabana Mahmood was clear about this

There is absolutely no excuse, ever any excuse, and the law will be enforced to break the law

And I think that the demonstrations outside hotels in this country have been disgraceful

I think they are intimidatory. And I think the way in which asylum seekers and migrants have been tarred with this criminal brush is absolutely disgraceful

And sorry, Chris, just to make the point, because you talked about a plane load of migrants. the language and you're a very decent chap the the language that is being used in our country

is so dehumanizing and i think that that is really threatening to our british values my grandparents

came to this country fleeing hitler they could have ended up in the camps were it not for this

country they would have ended up in the camps and we have to be so careful i think about the

language we use it is not unreasonable to want to grip this issue but how we talk about it and at

least in terms of tone i thought shabana mahoud got the tone right disgraceful then jack so it's a

protest outside the bell hotel happening is that disgraceful i don't i don't i don't think protesting

outside a hotel is disgraceful at all i mean everyone has a right to sort of challenge is

well i can't protest outside your house and you can't protest outside mine if you disagree with

the government policy are putting people up in hotels and i could completely understand

the concern that people should not be put up in hotels in the hearts of communities although if

they're not they're going to be put up in barracks somewhere i imagine do that outside

downing street don't do it outside a hotel where human beings are living these are local outrageous

these are local people who'd have no warning about the hotels being taken over they suddenly find

their hotel has been booked out by the home office and they can't blame the home office chris don't

blame the individuals in that. If you're living somewhere in the West Midlands and the heavens, you can't

get a train to the home office and protest. Why should you have to pay for that train fare

Why not protest outside? Why shouldn't you be able to intimidate vulnerable

people? It's not intimidating. You don't think it'd be intimidating, Chris, if people came

outside your house because they didn't like GB News or come outside my house because

they didn't like my political views and protest. What else can they do? You're saying they can't protest

That makes it even worse. We saw a march of 150,000 people, many of whom

will have been concerned by government policy on asylum, march through London

That is a democratic way of expressing your feelings. To do it outside what is effectively someone's home

I maintain. And Shabana Mahmood, I hope you'd agree with me, is outrageous

It started under the Tory government. And part of the problem we are finding in our post-bac

is the lack of consultation leaves the demonstrations that Matthew's upset about

By not telling people, asking, do you mind if this hotel opens up now

with migrants who want nowhere else to go. We're not asking them. People feel they have to react somehow

And it goes back to the old-fashioned, the most centuries-old way of protesting. That's all they've got left

And it's really down to the government, which you're a part of. Yeah, but look, I do think, by the way

this is only going to get worse. I mean, look, obviously the Labour Party, the government's plans at the moment now

are to move them from asylum hotels into military camps or vacant military camps

This has been tried before, and you're just moving it from one community to another

You know you're moving the problem from one community to another. The local communities in that community who will feel hard done by

and they weren't consulted and the rest. I mean, I think we're talking about

at ends here because the bottom problem is for all these people, like for, I mean

the local communities is that they want this issue fixed full stop. There's going to be no communities happy

with illegal migrants sort of put into those communities and held up in hotels

or whatever for however long. But by the way, you can't protest. I think it makes it

frankly worse. Yeah, no, but protest, there's local protests across the country all the time

for different issues, not just sort of... Not outside people's homes. Sorry, not outside people's homes

This could have been my grandparents. If, God forbid, we ever have to flee this country, it could be us

Listen, I'm going to hold your toes to the fire on this. There are all sorts of issues with the asylum system at the moment

And Shabada Mahmood is trying to deal with those in radical ways

And by the way, there are problems with the ways. We haven't really dealt with some of the subjects there

Yeah, we'll come to that. But just to finish on this point, if you are an Afghan and you have come over by boat

you come to this country, what do you guys think should happen to that person

unless you agree with Nigel Farage that they should be sent straight back to Afghanistan

on an aeroplane because we've done a deal which we would have to do

We can't just send aeroplanes into Afghanistan without consultation with the Taliban

Send them to Afghanistan, where they may be tortured or killed. If you don't do that, where do you house them

Because you can't send them back to France unless the French allow them. Sure. Well, as I was going to say

I mean, the problem is at the moment that you don't know where a lot of these people are coming from. So how can you prove what countries they came from? Where would you house

them then? I actually think migration for our country is good for a load of sectors in a

controlled way, right? And for me, the actual, the influx of illegal migrants through different routes

but primarily obviously on boats, it actually diminishes. It actually diminishes the support

and safety nets we can give to people from war-torn countries who actually need it. In the interview with Shabana Mou, one of the big issues was she wouldn't stick to a number

She wouldn't say we're going to bring the illegal crossings down to a figure which we recognise

I say, would it be 50,000 and so forth? Here's what she said to us

How can we judge your success? 45,000 came here legally in 2022

You had the numbers off by heart. 29,000 in 2023, 36,000 last year, pushing 50,000 maybe this year, maybe not as much as that

What does the success look like? Will those numbers come down next year and going forward? Look, I want to implement these reforms as quickly as possible

I want to reduce the poor factors that are persuading people to get into those. Yeah, we know all that. How do we judge your success? Numbers

Judge me on delivery. Judge me on delivery. I want to get those boat crossings down

I'm not going to say arbitrary numbers. But they will fall next year. I want to see them fall. Of course I do, as we implement these reforms

I would say to your viewers and to people across the country, judge us on the totality of the reforms once they're being implemented

I believe the combination of these reforms and our law enforcement activity can fix this problem and can bring those numbers down

If they don't work, you'll go further. You pull back from ECHR withdrawal, which, of course, is what reform and the Tories are doing. Are there other ideas you could push to

Well, look, I will always, of course, keep under review whether these measures are working as they should. But we've announced the set of proposals today. We've now got to consult and bring forward legislation. That will be the next stage. And then we've got to crack on with delivery as well

Japanese viewers watching this, listening to this will be frustrated. You're not saying numbers will come down. You hope they will. You can't say it

Look, I know it's a low-trust environment, right? I know that people will say that we've heard all of this before

I get that. I know there's a lot of cynicism. It's justified. So I'm not telling your viewers that they are wrong to feel or think as they do

Just judge us on our record. We are bringing forward new reforms. We've already massively increased law enforcement activity

and general enforcement activity in this country. We've seen 1,000 people removed as a result of the raids

that we have been carrying out. We will keep going on that enforcement activity. I will bring these reforms forward, judge us on our record

So there you have it, Matthew Studden and Jack Sellers. We're hearing the word trust from a government that's failed on controlling the borders properly

She won't give us a number. She won't tell us how much she wants small boat crossings to fall to

Do you understand that, Matthew Studden, or is that a missed opportunity? Let's address the issue of trust first. I think trust is pretty low in politicians, isn't it

I don't think that's a sort of particularly controversial thing to say. Let's then deal with the trust in this Labour government

Rachel Reeves said after her budget where she arguably already broke a manifesto pledge with no insurance by raising national insurance contributions for employers She then after the budget said she not coming back isn she for more I was there at a CBA conference And now it is almost certain that she coming back for more Now circumstances of course change But that does not promote trust in politics

If we cross over to the issue of asylum and immigration, at the heart of this

these proposals it seems to me is trying to stop the boats and trying to drive down numbers trying

to streamline and regularize our asylum process is it going to stop the boats my view is i don't

think it will because if you're told that you okay you can't you can't get indefinite relief

to remain after five years or live for it after five years you're gonna have to wait 20 years

that's still a better deal isn't it than hanging around in other parts of the world whether that's

your home country or or northern france and therefore i'm skeptical as to whether this is

going to work i don't think rwanda would have worked and i wouldn't send people to afghanistan

and this government wouldn't send people to afghanistan so i'm afraid and i'm glad i'm not

in government at this point because sunak found it incredibly difficult and starm is finding

incredibly difficult i'm afraid i do not have an obvious solution and that is this is a such a

toxic issue politically at the moment and we could be in a situation where we just see prime minister

of the prime minister falling yes because they cannot resolve it jack sell is this model his

ideas model on the denmark system that would tackle illegal immigration matthew makes a point

if you have to wait 20 years to get right to remain. I mean, 20 years is a generation

I mean, children grow up in 20 years. Is that reasonably fair to, say, a baby arriving here now

will in 20 years be deported? They'll be as British as the baby, a fellow child in their class

The problem I see with this policy in many ways, and it is a big political issue

is that I feel like it doesn't tick any of the boxes which Labour MPs will like. You were talking about Labour MPs at the moment

20 people are out there on the record, for 20-ish on the record talking about this and being against it

But in the background, there is going to be so many of them in negotiations right now with the whips of the party

and with the Home Office talking through the details because they want the government to move on certain things

So I think it's got a long way to go because, just because, you know, for people who, you know

a lot of people will have sympathy with the idea that if you can remember Waterloo Country, Ukraine and others

that you should come here and get a bit of a safe protection because, you know, your country is clearly in dire straits

so this policy goes against those people and removes the protections that they have or pushes it

down the line to 20 years and won't fix and will not fix the boat problem

and if one of the concerns that people have is integration it's going to make it a hell of a lot harder

to integrate in this country if you're being reviewed every two or three years

or whatever it is and then you're not able to apply for this settled status until 20 years

as for the child points very very important point i brought it up on jay cabrish mok show the other

day i've been back in touch with the home office about it since the home office is to me that it

was always possible i think to remove someone who has been brought brought up here for a while

born here not everyone has automatic british citizenship because that but in terms of actually

policy not the change in the law yes the priority now seems to be shifting so that more families

will actually be removed and i hate the idea hate is a strong word that if someone is born in this

country to refugee parents and their parent the parent's home country is still unsafe say for 15

years they are educated next to my son and my daughter for the next 15 years that country then

become safe and the government could then remove that trial, that 15-year-old trial

That's what they say might happen. And of course, 15 years away is a long time away in terms of

politics. The big question, I mean, for me is, will the policy end up being 20 years? Because

the next most severe in Europe is Denmark, and that's eight years. That's a massive difference

So will they end up in that position? I don't know. Also, Shabana Moody wants to tweak the European Convention on Human Rights, Article 8, Right to Family Life, Article 3 as well

She doesn't want to go the silver bullet, which is leaving the ECHR, but isn't there a risk here

By trying to do all this and maybe failing, we'll see if that happens

We all hope she sees it may fail. Wouldn't that make the case for leaving the ECHR

at the next general election? I don't think there is a silver bullet. I think that's what we've come to learn

But the next electoral party is promising a silver bullet because this hasn't worked

Even that, I'm highly sceptical that Farage could implement what he says he wants to implement

let's say that Faraj does take us out of the ECHR, which will take, I imagine, quite a bit of wrangling

and will be time-consuming, and withdraws us from the Refugee Convention. He still then as I said earlier has to do a deal with the Taliban and send aeroplanes to Afghanistan Now that may be possible but I would suggest it going to be tough So Shabana Mahmood is wanting again

here to triangulate. She's trying to find some sort of compromise. On the issue of Article 3

public policy rights or public policy issues don't, I think, come into it, unlike, I think

with Article 8. Maybe, correct me if I'm wrong. She wants international reform at European Council

level. In the short term, especially in terms of this electoral cycle, I suggest that's fantasy

The biggest thing I've got, though, with the Labour government is why wait 16 months to sort

it out? There's a question I put to Subhano and Mood. It's been 16 months to get to this point

We've been through one Home Secretary, Yvette Cooper, now you're in post. Why is the government

sleptwalk into this point now? Why is the urgency, which you definitely are showing

in the House of Commons today and tonight on GB News, why has that been lacking so far

Well, I would disagree with that because, look, since we've been in government, we inherited an almighty mess in the immigration system from the Conservative Party

Decision-making was through the floor. They'd just basically given up on governing altogether. Well, they thought Rwanda was a silver bullet, didn't they

They did, and there are no silver bullets here. It's a range of measures. They think there are. They think there are silver bullets

I think they're wrong. I think they haven't learned the lesson of their time in government either. But we are learning the lessons of their failures

And my predecessor's Home Secretary, Yvette Cooper, she got this system back up and running again

And she started fixing its foundations and now it's on me to keep going with that programme of reform

Matthew Shaddon, there you have it, Shibana Mahmood saying she disagrees with wasted time, but they have wasted in so many ways, away from immigration and other areas too

The first year and a bit of this government has wasted time, haven't they? It was a very good question that you put to her

And if you look at the way that the Donald Trump administration has been seen to have hit the ground running

but now I am the opposite of a Donald Trump fan, you might be surprised to learn

But the people he surrounded himself this time with seem very different to the more conventional

perhaps more establishment, to use that term. Very engaged, aren't they? People that he surrounded himself in his first term

they were sort of almost checks and balances figures. Now the gloves are off. Starmer clearly was not sufficiently ready for government

And should we be surprised by that, Chris? If you think about where he was coming from

he was coming from a position of a Boris Johnson landslide against Jeremy Corbyn of 80 seats

And he turned that party around from that mega defeat in 2019 to a party that then won a much bigger landslide, albeit very shallow, in 2024

So the focus seemed to have been partly on removing Corbynites from the party or removing Corbynites from the party

And making the, so some said, and making Labour electable. but somewhere along the line it seems to have been forgotten that actually it's not just about

winning an election you've actually got to have a plan for government and storm is clearly somebody

wants to make this country better but if you don't have a proper government and arguably if you don't

have a sort of guiding ideology of some form i know then you're going to struggle it it's almost

like it becomes a black hole that sucks everything into it and i read a piece in the ft just before

coming on your podcast which suggested that this was a chronically under scrutinized

incoming government so that starmer hadn't done very well in the first 18 months when the polls

turned in his favor the press didn't catch up and say hang on we need to hold these guys

toes to the fire so look this has been slow be fascinating to see whether it works and i want to

just stress one major point here i think and that is i do have concerns about the real world

implications of these reforms. I understand the political and policy pressures on this government

on asylum. But I do not want innocent and vulnerable people who we live shoulder to

shoulder with in our communities. And you're not going through the safe routes. You want to

expand the safe routes, which is the refugee asylum seekers are not necessarily impoverished

My grandparents were not impoverished when they had to flee Vienna when the Nazis were going to

kick them out so the we are talking about people who've come here under incredibly vulnerable

circumstances a let's not dehumanization although there are some economic migrants of course there

are and we and those people who are economic migrants have no right to be here the difficulty

is trying to sift this and make a system that works and by the way just finally if these reforms

really in the real world hurt people who should not in any way be hurt that's very disappointing

I mean, Jack Schell is just finally, you have stopped the boats. Labour have smashed the gangs

They're not saying she's not stopped the boats anymore because they may not be able to get there. Yeah, and that's the half of them that you talked earlier

about Shibana Mahmood not being able to say how many people she expected this to stop

Half of me, one, thinks that she doesn't want to be hostage to Portia in the same way that we were

Or she quite frankly doesn know yet what sort of impact this is going to be Or what success looks like Or what success looks like But they had a good week They had very good headlines I think Shubhano Amoud would have been very happy with how the sort of Sunday Monday Tuesday coverage went and how it been

received. And it looks like they're being strong and taking on the issue and the opposition parties

have, you know, sort of warmed to it as well. But they've got a long way to go. They've got a

potentially a home office, which a lot of the home office, you know, are quite resilient and

resistant. So they sort of change us. I'm not someone who says, you know, the blobless or

reform the bloc civil service has got lots of excellent people but there's lots of people in

the home office who will completely not agree with this approach there's you know there's

france and other nations and all these nations we're giving money to we're not doing anything

to sort of stop this quite frankly um this could stop if france took people back couldn't it yes

but am i wrong about that and then and we had the eu about to say aren't you but there's a

argument no i wasn't about to say no no seriously if france if this wasn't some form and as an ugly

way of corrupting it but a political punishment beating for this country and it may well be that

it's what it feels like not to me because i don't see human beings like that but it may be

what for how france sees it that punishes for leaving because you thought you're going to be

able to withdraw and all the rest of it actually we're showing you that your borders are wide open

the french if they wanted to presumably and i don't know the detail of the law here but if the

french said you could just simply pick them up and take them back these human beings wouldn't

That is reform of policy. But I've been told by someone from the senior, that's basically invading France

Which is nonsense. That's fantasy. You can't go into French wars and drop them off

because that is invading French wars. And I'm not talking about, and I'm saying if the French wanted to sort it

and if they did sort it, and the law permitted, you wouldn't have camps in northern France

Yes. No, listen, I personally think if you sort migration, Labour, if they can get any just down to management levels

if the economy is growing, they've got a real chance at the next election. So it is high

She came across as just what you said about them having a good week. I mean, Shabana Mahmood comes across well

Yes, and she did. When I met her, I thought she was compelling. I felt she believed it

I thought I didn't feel the same with Yvette Cooper. I think she absolutely gets it

And she uses language which shows she's meeting the challenge, I think, head on

I didn't get that with Yvette Cooper. And so I think she really does understand it. But is that enough

Look, this time next week, this is all going to be ancient history because, you know, they're going to obliterate the economy

and they're going to be back to, you know, talking. Can I just point out to any viewers who might be concerned

for my physical health, I have not been punched in the forehead. I had a little biopsy

And also, may I just say that I host a podcast too? Yes. 20 questions with where I interview people from different parts

of the physical spectrum. I was about to come to that. I'll come on your podcast too in reply to this one

Just very funny, what does success look like this time next year? What is success in this policy

Jack Sellers. I think this time next year, with the context in mind that there is not a general election in theory for another three, four years, assume that next year, if you could say they've halved, if boats have halved, I think that is progress, which they can point to to say, wait until we see what we do next year

Matthew Sadlin. I suspect some of these reforms are going to take considerably longer, or at least a little longer than a year

And my concern is that the boats, and by the way, I want the boats to stop. It's dangerous. People are being taken advantage of by criminal gangs

I don't think the boats are going to see a significant dent because of any of these policies in a year's time

Is that a political problem for Labour? Yes. And if you ask people to judge you on your record, it makes it an even bigger political problem

Well, Matthew Stadlin, thank you for joining us. Of course, you're a former LBC BBC presenter

and now a commentator also on GB News and Jack Sellers, former advisor to Richard Sinan

Jack, thank you both for joining us in a very big week, I think, for this government

that tries to tackle one of the three key issues it needs to sort out before the election on immigration

I tweeted Christopher Hope on X. What are your Twitter handles? At Matthew Stadlin

I wish it were still called Twitter and not X. X at Jack Sellers, 19th Street

DM them all with your thoughts or email me chopper at gbnews.uk

those are some podcasts what's yours called Matthew? 20 questions whether you can find it on Spotify and Apple

I'll be on that very soon Jack? no podcast for me but please do be nice if you do DM me

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