Chopper's Political Podcast episode 80 - Power, Lies and Epstein - WATCH IN FULL

Coming up on Chopper's Political Podcast

People who are turning, what, 18 in this parliament will have had seven prime ministers in their short lives

I mean, that is just the most extraordinary sense of discombobulating crisis

Welcome back to Choppers Political Podcast

where I bring you the best guest gossip, news and stories from our studio and our team here at GB News Politics

in the heart of Westminster. My name is Christopher Hope. I am GB News' political editor

This week is one of the most difficult ones Sir Keir Starmer has faced since he became Prime Minister

18 short months ago, I would say it's his hardest week ever. In a press conference just a few hours ago where I was in Hastings

the PM apologised profusely about pointing Peter Manilson as his ambassador to Washington

I counted five sorries and three apologises. I am sorry. Sorry for what was done to you

Sorry that so many people with power failed you. But how have we got here

and is this the beginning of the end of Sir Keir Starmer Prime Minister

I'm joined today by a terrific team, our team here at GB News who cover politics

at least two of them anyway, the Chief Political Correspondent Catherine Forster and our Deputy Political Editor Tom Harwood

Welcome to you both. Thanks for being here. It feels like a moment. It's Avengers Assemble for bringing in the top teams to explain what on earth is going on

I mean, Catherine, to you first. What's happened here? Where are we with Peter Mandelson

I mean, when he was appointed, it was a surprise, wasn't it? Yes, it was a surprise

I think let's just go back to the beginning of this. And a lot of this, let's face it, is to do with Donald Trump

Because when Sue Gray was chief of staff in Downing Street, before Trump was elected, they were looking at who might be the UK ambassador to the US

obviously a hugely important role. And Karen Pierce was there. She was very popular

She was very happy to combine you. Her and her feather boa. Well liked, very well liked

And Sue Gray was thinking, well, maybe we stick with her. She'd have been happy to continue

Maybe somebody like David Miliband. Then Donald Trump was elected. And then they have to have a rethink

And at a similar time, Sue Gray was booted out of that job

And along comes Morgan McSweeney as the prime minister's new chief of staff

Power struggle, wasn't there? There was a power struggle. And Morgan won

Let's see how long he stays in number 10 now. Lots of speculation about him

But they thought, we need someone who's going to be good at dealing with Trump

We know he's very changeable. And Peter Mandelson, a Labour giant, the ultimate schmoozer, the prince of darkness, incredibly well connected

and so Morgan McSweeney who was in very frequent contact with Mandelson

was mentored by him thought that he would be a great pick

and the Prime Minister from what I understand wasn't initially too sure

but so it was announced that it was going to happen you were there I think

in the February when he started in the role Prime Minister made a big job

About a year ago, actually. A big joke talking about, sounded like he was talking about Donald Trump

but to us it's just Peter. And called him Peter, crucially, rather than as fast forward as well

Call him Peter. Purely Mandelson now, brutal. But Tom Harwood, he was broadly welcomed

Of course, he was a former trade commissioner for the European Union

so he used to do it with trade and big areas like that

He also could do it with powerful people like Donald Trump. He felt about right, didn't he, at the appointment

It's hard to overestimate how important Peter Mandelson has been to the Labour Party over the last 40 years

And for the mid-1980s, recreating the Labour Party in his own image

The Labour Party used to have a socialist red flag as its party logo

Peter Mandelson changed that to the logo of the red rose. He created the sort of Neil Kinnock project to try and moderate the image of the Labour Party

became the MP for Hartlepool in 1992. when Blair and Brown got in, he was sort of the third man in that Blairist project

The secret third man. Secret third man. And of course, he was in the cabinet, not once, but twice in that early time

before going off to Brussels and being one of the most senior roles in the European Commission

And then being brought back in by Gordon Brown as business secretary

and, in effect, deputy prime minister towards the tail end of Gordon Brown's premiership

only to then be a huge leading light in the behind-the-scenes Remain campaign

existing in the Labour world at such high degrees, you know, being the Prince of Darkness

as he was often referred to, or perhaps the Dark Lord as he became entering the House of Lords

And then, of course, this appointment that we get to now. Perhaps it's not a surprise that a man that was so entwined

with the very heart of the Labour Party world, in particular one faction of the Labour Party world

was the man to go into Washington. A man with an immaculate contact book

a very, very clever man, and perhaps this is where the blind spot came

for not just the prime minister, but everyone around him too. And he was trusted by people

you know, Johnson Powell, who was the senior figure advising the PM

on foreign affairs and... Another Blair era. Another Blair era. I mean, actually Blair is now back, by the way

and we haven't talked much about that, but he's back in Gaza as almost the quasi-official UK representative

on the Gaza board. So, you know, it is people being assembled from the old days

and it seemed like a good appointment, but we knew, didn't we, about this connection to Jeffrey Epstein

The FT newspaper had done pictures of him. We knew that Epstein called him Petey, a rather familiar term for Lord Anderson

Well, on the 21st of June, 2023, the FT ran an article that exposed

not just that Peter Mendelsohn knew Epstein, because we all knew that, but the depth of the relationship

The fact that Peter Mendelsohn stayed at Epstein's fancy house in New York

after Epstein was convicted for child sex offences. After Jeffrey Epstein was a convicted

paedophile while Jeffrey Epstein was in prison for that issue Peter Mendelsohn stayed at his pad in New York Now that was published in the FT It came about after J Morgan files were revealed The Guardian reported it

The Independent reported it. Earlier today, I interviewed Jim Pickard, the Deputy Judiciary of the FT, who wrote that story and indeed asked the then leader of the opposition, Keir Starmer, a question on Peter Mandelson and his links to Epstein

at which point Starmer sort of obfuscated, batted it away. I think I was there. It was a press conference

It was. And a speech. And it felt a bit... Everyone thought, well, where's that come from? You know, that's obviously..

So it was the first question. And yes, he was challenged about it. So it wasn't new to Keir Starmer, was it, this connection

Exactly. And yet today, what Keir Starmer has tried to do is say

yeah, we knew Peter knew Epstein, but we didn't know the depth of the relationship

I think that's a tricky lie for the Prime Minister to hold. And the detail of that relationship is pretty unpleasant

We're seeing, aren't we, how close they are in these emails released over the past seven days by the Department of Justice, Catherine

Well, yes, of course. It's a huge crisis now. But also, it was a crisis back in September when the first tranche of the Epstein files were released

And at that point, the prime minister had come back from the summer and talked about the next phase

And then lo and behold, they're getting broiled in Angela Rayner's stamp duty

She has to go. Then Peter Mandelson, those cringeworthy photographs, the birthday card, my dressing gown

We love you. Absolutely, incredibly embarrassing, making clear how close that relationship had been

and at that point the government realised he had to go. They booted him out

They'd made a lot of noise about that, ringing him up at 5am and booting him out

He was kicked out unceremoniously and that was the end of it or was it

Well, it wasn't. It was only the beginning. I think what happened last September when he lost his job

was the birthday book, which is Epstein's birthday book, about 2001, 2002

Yes. So what we didn't know then was really the time in office

for Mandelson and how that affected with Epstein. And that's why it's been so damaging. But let's revisit that birthday book for a while

I think it was something like 16 pages of photographs and comments, including one that said yum yum and with a picture of the island

I mean, some really questionable stuff in that book where people were sort of thinking

how on earth did this guy not know what was going on, even though that was before the prosecution of Epstein

That being said, we should return to this 2023 story in the FT

It was in the public domain that Mandelson and Epstein had a close relationship, close enough for Epstein to offer use of his house in New York to Peter Mandelson while he was in prison for child sexual offences

And that was understood by Sir Keir Starmer. So we fast forward to the fallout, the disownment of Peter Mandelson

And what's happened to him is like an old fashioned put him in the stocks and he's lost his title, the right to be in a House of Lords, the right honourable

That's gone. That's the third thing is a police investigation. Hello, I'm Bev Turner. Now, it can feel like the money in our bank accounts at the moment does not keep up with the cost of living

And maybe there's a solution. I'm here today with the CEO of Tally Money, Cameron Parry

Cameron, what is Tally Money? Well, Bev, with telemoney, you get a current account and a debit card

but instead of pounds, you use milligrams of gold as your everyday money

So why gold? Gold traditionally is a great store of value. It has, on average, gone up at over 11% per annum for the last 25 years against the pound

It's tripled in value in the last decade. And in the last two years alone, it's increased by 50% against the pound

Banks' savings products just can't compete with that level of growth. But this isn't just about gold

This is about a currency that you guys have created at Tally Money

Explain it to me as though I'm an idiot. So, look, people need to be able to hold their earnings

and build their savings in a money that retains its value and remains in their legal control and remains theirs to access

away from government control. Great. You had me at not exposed to government control

You should feel safe and happy with your money. You should have peace of mind. The more money you see in your bank balance

and that's the type of thing we're trying to deliver, and give people choice in the type of money they get to use every day

Brilliant. Thank you so much, Cameron. Thank you. I was in a speech this morning with the PM

He was called Mandelson, just like the PM could barely say his name

about spitting it out. I mean, he's absolutely furious about this. And the establishment is doing all it can

to take away all the garb, all the baubles of office. So Peter Manon's not..

Well, the Prime Minister's been on a journey just in the last few days because at the weekend

it was like nothing much to see here. Then it was, actually, we want him out of the House of Lords

but it's all very complicated. Then it was, actually, we're going to legislate to get him out of the House of Lords

and then all hell let loose yesterday when Kemi Bednought, I mean, she played a blinder, didn't she, really, with that humble address

And then Angela Rayner sort of took control. The whole thing has snowballed

And there we have the prime minister this morning. But I have to say, I was sitting waiting for Kemi Bednought's press conference this morning

which was delayed because we were waiting for the prime minister to wrap

I was absolutely astonished at what the Prime Minister was saying this morning, because not only did he row back on the line, the bombshell yesterday that we thought he'd fessed up to knowing that Mandelson and Epstein had continued to be in touch after Epstein came out of jail

He then said he wanted to clarify that and made out, no, it was just that, you know, I knew that they'd known each other

And he'd accepted, he believed the lies that they barely knew. Come on. As Tom was saying, this was all out there. How is this credible

Let's just listen to that key exchange between Kemi Badenock and the question and why what the PM said yes to

Did the official security vetting he received mention Mandelson ongoing relationship with the paedophile Jeffrey Epstein Yes it did As a result various questions were put to him

So that's Kevin Badenot there, Tom. Essentially, she said, what did you know in the vetting process

He said, yes, I knew. And now he's trying to rewind back, it seems, the day after

Well, exactly. The following day, Keir Starmer says that he didn't say enough the previous day

I mean, from his own mouth, a shift in position. What Kier Starmer said in the very first response to the very first question in his press conference was that there was more to say

That in the vetting procedure, there were questions asked of Mandelson. And then he said something that I thought was the most interesting quote of the day

I noted it down. I rewatched this several times to get every word. Because he was trying to say that he was misled

at Prime Minister's questions, he said Peter Mandelson lied to him. The next day, he didn't use the word lie

He used what I would term as incredibly loyally speak. So had Mandelson stayed at Epstein's premises, how close was he

The quote from the Prime Minister is, the answers given were intentionally intended to create the impression

that Mandelson barely knew Epstein. Remind me of something out of Yes, Prime Minister

intentionally intended to create the impression. No longer is there the word lie

or the idea that Mandelson said, no, I never stayed at the House

No, instead intentionally intended to give the impression. I mean, gobbledygook word salad

But clearly, this is a very clever man in the Prime Minister trying to create an impression for himself

that he was misled, but without saying the words that he was. Do you think he couldn't say lie

out to the House of Commons? Because that's where it's protected. I think the documents will reveal, and now the House of Commons has voted to reveal all of the information with regard to the appointment of Peter Mandelson

And it's a lot of information. And it's a lot of information. I think that the Prime Minister knows that Mandelson did not deny staying at Geoffrey Epstein's house

So he couldn't say that today. Instead, he had to use this word salad intentionally intended to create the impression

It's nonsense. And it's the Prime Minister, if I was being mean, trying to mislead the press

But we already know, don't we? All right, there's going to be loads and loads of information that's going to come out

But we already know that there was basically, in the first sort of supposed due diligence

a two-page document. They can test two pages. That had the, including the FT story, including this information

which was in the public domain, that this relationship had continued. And now the prime minister is talking, rowing back from that

and effectively going, nothing to see here. You were there. Could you actually believe what you were here

It was really tense in that room. And I felt he was a guy fighting for his credibility

not quite his political career yet, but certainly his credibility. He said, sorry, he's a victim-centric prime minister

He does adopt the victim position, and that's why he's attacked Prince Andrew

or the former Prince Andrew over I think a lot of our viewers will take issue with that

with the grooming gangs and so on they say that they want to harm violence

against women and girls you've got a very glaring example look at the apology he said there

I'm sorry, sorry of what was done to you the victims of Epstein sorry that so many people with power failed you

sorry of having believed Manilson's lies he used the word lies there and appointed him

and sorry that even now you're before SWAT is a story unto fold

in public once again. He is grovelling over this now, Sir Keir Starmer

He knows the hole that he's in, and yes, lies in the generality there, but when it comes to the specific questions

of whether he's stayed at Epstein's house or some of the other particular charges, that's where you've got the obfuscatory language

But the difficulty here for the Prime Minister is that his entire political brand

his image, and indeed his career, is built upon being Mr. Rules

being Mr. Moral, being the absolute antithesis of the tail end of the last government

being the guy that would be cleaner than clean and whiter than white. And now what you have is him embroiled

in this incredibly murky situation where he's dancing on the head of a pin

trying to justify the positions that he has taken, trying to say that he's a sucker who was taken in

by something that literally everyone knew. And he's lost control, Tom, hasn't he

of what's being released, the scale of what's being released in that motion, forced through by the Tories with 120 MPs

against over 400 for the Labour Party. Extraordinary how an opposition party can kick the government about

They did that because Sir Kittan was lost his backbenches yesterday. They weren't going to vote with him on what they wanted to do

so they had to amend and amend again what they won't release. It's funny, isn't it, how many parallels there are

to the tail end of the Boris Johnson years. I mean, number one, a scandal over an appointed

in the case of Boris Johnson, an appointed minister who was accused of sexual assault in a private members club

and Boris Johnson stuck by him until he didn't. I mean, that was what ended Boris Johnson's premiership

But there's another parallel as well, which is when Boris Johnson went away to India

there was a motion brought before the House of Commons that originally his government was fighting and eventually acquiesced on

which was to start an investigation, a parliamentary standards investigation into Boris Johnson over the so-called party gate

Now, this is what actually forced him out as an MP at the end of things

And I don't think anyone quite at the time understood the gravity of what was being voted for then

Have we had a parallel thing this week with Keir Starmer, not knowing quite the gravity of what was being voted for by the House of Commons

I definitely did, because I was actually not in India. I was in PCH going, why

Poor Colour's House. Poor Colour's House. It was Thursday afternoon. Why have the whips sent everyone home

And they allowed Harriet Harman to be appointed unchallenged to that role of the kind of witch finder in chief, a prosecuting job

What Boris called the kangaroo court. Yes, but the whips walked away. I mean, the government could have voted against that

and brought someone in who they might have thought would be easier. But now they've given control of this whole release of information

although I'm not sure on that, by the way, I haven't been in the lobby, but we think it's going to be the Cabinet Office releasing all of it

and then the security bits by the Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament

So they might be both doing it, but they're working out right now. That was my understanding yesterday because the amendment to the amendment

But they clearly MPs clearly don trust the Cabinet Office and number 10 to not withhold information And that was the breakdown of trust And you talk about losing his backbenchers Well I would argue that he actually lost a lot of his backbenchers a very very long time ago

I mean, really, over the welfare reforms was the first point at which enough of them clubbed together because there's so many of them, you can't bribe them with jobs

Enough of them clubbed together and realised if they don't like something, they can just say no and it doesn't happen

And I remember being in The Hague, it was the NATO summit when it was becoming clear that it was all falling apart on the welfare reforms

And I asked the prime minister then how confident he was of leading them into the next election

because it felt like then his authority was draining away. And I think there is an argument that really, despite this 160 seat majority in theory

the government is pretty ineffectual because there's so much they don't like to do

and they just can't because their MPs will be torn away. So at the beginning of a very difficult period

for the Prime Minister, aren't we, Tom Harwood? Well, the term is brittally

because until George and Maloney you had about a new Prime Minister every year in Italy

and it feels like it goes along with a country that is not doing well economically

that can't get control of the business of government that it's just a perpetual sense of crisis

And that leads governments to become sloppy, to make bad decisions in all sorts of areas

because nothing is going right for them. And whether you look at the migration crisis in this country

or the economic flatlining, nothing is going right for this government. And so it's flailing

I mean, if we had a rosy economy, would the prime minister be so concerned

about having a man in Washington who could do a deal that might save some jobs? I mean, perhaps not

Perhaps he'd be able to take a step back and take a more moralist position on this

But clearly, I think what we have now is a sense of crisis. I mean, people who are turning, what, 18 in this parliament

will have had seven prime ministers in their short lives. I mean, that is just the most extraordinary sense of discombobulating crisis

He can get through this. I mean, there will be a release of WhatsApp, emails from people in and around

Morgan McSweeney, Manilstone. Can he get through it? So is this not the beginning of the end of Keir Starmer

Can this man really take the Labour Party into the next election? I think it now becomes an issue of when, not if

OK, Catherine, but he did say today he believes he was elected to deliver for the British people

He's now seeing that vote in July 24 as a personal mandate. We heard that repeatedly from Boris Johnson, Theresa May, I think, to a lesser degree

But they do get it into their heads. I can't let all these people down. And I think of, in my mind's eye, he'll think of the JLR workers

whenever he'll say, you know. Well, yeah, but I mean, he did get that big landslide

And I think we must give him credit for what he did to the Labour Party following Jeremy Corgan

He'll say that was down to me. And that worst result since 1935

He did detoxify it. He did get it back from the far left

He did make it not scary. But they have come in and they've done a load of things

that were not in their manifesto that they promised not to do

and they are deeply, deeply unpopular. Now, it's not easy for them to get rid of him

but I believe that the only thing that is really going to keep him in indefinitely

is the fact that they haven't got anybody better to put him in his place. There is no point in getting rid of him

unless you've got somebody who's doing it. Give you a bump in the polls

West Streeting is very much tied with Peter Mandelson. Angela Rayne has got £40,000 of unpaid stamp duty

hanging over her. the only person who would give him a bump in the polls

I mean, he might be a terrible PM, who knows, but the only person who on paper would give him a bump

is Andy Burnham, who's all over. They have blocks from Danzig. What good options do they have? Tom

And yet on the streeting point, at least he's a formidable communicator, something that Keir Starmer never had

Starmer became Prime Minister by default by appearing to be some sort of straight-laced guy

who'd at least be sort of competent. And not Jeremy Corbyn. And crucially, not Jeremy Corbyn, or frankly, any Tory

And his whole thing wasn't that he was some sort of grand ideal, a logical statesman or someone who could move a room with his words

No, he was supposed to be Mr. Technocrat. And yet the one issue, competence

I don't think there's a single word that would be real. It does feel sleazy that the attacks on the Tories now can't happen anymore

The COVID VIP lane attacks, they can't work because of this. It has neutered so many of the..

I mean, it's the moment when they're blaming the Tories for stuff. It has to end

Well, it's the whole, they're all the same thing. It just absolutely whacks them now

in the face. I think at the general election, they sold the country a vision that, I mean

like him or loathe him, Tony Blair, for his first term in office, stuck to Tory spending limits

did quite a few things that I think middle England would be comfortable with. I think a lot of people

thought that we were getting a sort of new Labour government in 2024. And instead, the first thing

this government does is raise taxes by £40 billion. The first thing... They've got a black

hold on. Oh, I'm sure they'll take that. But this is the thing

They campaigned as one thing and governed as another and it is their undoing

Listen, I'm due on Martin Dauberny's show moments away so I can't be late for him. He'll go nuts

Just an easy question finally. Is Kirstama in place by Christmas? Christmas, yes. 29, no

Catherine? Christmas, yes. 20, 29, no. We do differ in opinions sometimes, just not on this

And who replaces him if he's not in the next election? Catherine? She's shaking your head

I can't give you an answer. OK. Andy Burnham, he doesn't have a..

That's definitely a long, long answer to him. Catherine Forster, Tom Horwood

Thank you for joining us today on Chopper's Political Podcast. It's been great. I tweet at Christopher Hope on X

What's your Twitter handle, Catherine? Forster underscore K. Thank you, Tom. Tom HFH

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