Chopper's Political Podcast episode 96 - Kemi Badenoch - WATCH IN FULL

Coming up on Chopper's political podcast

I've got to ask you, did you have his mobile phone number like everyone else seems to in Washington

I do now. Do you want to rig it now? Welcome back to Chopper's political podcast

where I normally bring you the best guest gossip news and stories

from our studios in the heart of Westminster, GB News. Instead, we're in the splendour here of what was formerly called

St John's Smith Square, a concert venue in the heart of Westminster

My name is Christopher Hope. Apparently, I'm a chaos creator, according to my producer, Rebecca Nunes

Formerly known, she says, as a GB News political editor, I also want to apologise to George for making him edit this on his day off

because I've squeezed in an interview with the leader of the opposition

Kemi Badenok, for this podcast against their plans. I squeezed in and hope they're not cross, but I did it for you listeners at home

you viewers at home, not for them. I know you want to hear more from Kemi Badenok

So later I'll be speaking with my colleague, Bev Turner, about her starring role in the Oval Office this week

in asking questions of the President of the United States, Donald Trump, and also to James Tunbridge

He's a lawyer acting on behalf of half a dozen Chagossians who have relocated to their land in the middle of the Indian Ocean

want to stay there because the UK government wants them to leave and to pass sovereignty of their islands from the UK to Mauritius

More of that later. But first to the Tory leader, Kemi Badenok

She's been leader since November 2024. We're now in 2026. She's seen the fortunes, I think, improve for her party, although some fundamentals haven't improved

It's the first time on this podcast since she ran for leader against Robert Jenrick and others

And here she is now. Kevin Baydott, thank you for joining us today on Chopper's Political Podcast in the Echoing Hall here in what's formerly called St. John Smith Square

Thank you for joining us. First time on the podcast since you're running for Tory leader

Give yourself a score out of 10. Well, I am Tory leader, so I can turn out a text for making it through that very difficult leadership contest

It was definitely contested. What have you learned about yourself? Well, how long have you got

A quarter of an hour, actually, I'm told by Henry over there. What have I learned about myself

That I'm very adaptable, very resilient. And I've also been I've been reminded about myself more

Just how much I love people, how much I love working in a team. I don't like doing things by myself

No. And I like people to be with me and around me. So you'll notice that with a lot of the things that I talk about

I'm talking about my team. It's not just me. It's Mel Stride. It's James Cleverley

It's click. Teen, you know, pretty and so on. You know, great business, shadowed business secretary

Today I've been talking a lot about Nick Timothy. Yeah, yeah. He is great

But it's nice. It's nice to have a gang. Yeah. In a leadership contest, it's just you

But once you are a leader, then you've got to make noise. You've got to make noise. You've got to make wins. You've done some wins on Peter Manesson

The stagion is there from the government. This humble address is resulting in embarrassing documents appearing every several few weeks from this government about that appointment with Manesson to be the UK ambassador to Washington

And you appear to have got better at PMQs. What was the trick there? You've learned to make it less complicated and punch the same bruise over six questions

I was trying to be very serious and going into policy detail

That was last summer, wasn't it, really? Yes, and I think when I first started, because I've been a Secretary of State, I've been in Cabinet

there's a lot of knowledge in my head. I was in government in various departments for five years

and people just didn't understand what I was talking about. So I decided to make it super simple and just absorb the panto element about it

I didn't want to be in a panto, but you saw yesterday with Keir Starmer

I was asking him same question again and again, and he was talking about everything

Three times the same question. I asked him four times. Four times, was it

By the end, last question too. He came back to you with questions, and the speaker stepped in saying..

I'll tell you what was really interesting. It was one of those times, it's happened before, I can't remember exactly which one

where I felt the dynamic had changed, and I was the one in charge

I was the one in charge of the country. There were even some times when I actually just said something

and I had to remind it, like, make sure you ask a question, because I'm so used to answering questions

That's what I want to be doing. I want to be on that other side, answering questions

But I need to fix Conservative Party, make sure people trust us again

so that we can all do that again. We'll come to that. It's about authority, isn't it

I mean, that's our weekly judgment on you as a leader, really. However hard that is, it'd be pretty unfair, probably

But that's how when we see you. And that's why it matters so much. But you seem to have improved on it a lot

when you started out. Why can't you? That's OK. I should be the same with anyone

I'd be rubbish too. Every job you do for the first time, you will get better the more you do it

That's just natural. Now, in October, you pulled out this... Except unless you're Keir Starmer

Okay, okay. We'll lay that on this podcast. Last October, you pulled out your policy platform

ECHR withdrawals, Scrapers Climate Change Act, Scrap Stamp Duty. What is Baydenochism

Is that a thing yet? I think it always has been a thing

You're an engineer. That's part of it. I'm not sure I'd call it Baydenochism, but that's quite a lot. Chemism? Chemistry

Chemistry. Okay, right. My particular strand of conservatism is really about making sure that the people who work hard and actually create value are the ones who get the rewards

You may remember in that leadership contest, I wrote about the bureaucratic middle class, that actually the middle class in our country is changing

It used to be farmers, you know, people, small businessmen make good. And now it's a lot of people sitting in offices waiting for a government to tell them what to do

It's compliance. It's HR. It's not necessarily creating wealth for our country

And that's something that I want to change. And you see it impacting everybody

You know, you get somebody in Whitehall deciding that what you need to do is tax businesses

And then day before yesterday, I'm in a cafe and this woman is saying I had to lay off, you know, more young people

and I'm now doing more shifts because I can't afford them. I'm missing my son's football game

I talked about that in my speech. The people who are out there really working hard

the woman who owns a hair salon, the guy who's running a plumbing business, the person driving the pack

they're taking their own risks. They are bearing the burden and people who are sitting in comfy offices

or worse, working from home, might be enjoying more than they're actually creating

compared to those people. Do any of your team work from home? Occasionally, yes, but I make them work hard

So I don't mind. They're working from home at midnight. I think that's fair. OK, regular surprise Zoom calls. That's how you do it. OK, got it

But on the fundamentals, you are going backwards at the moment. You've lost MPs. You're still behind where you were when you took over in the polls

How do you rectify that? Obviously, Nigel Farage is a challenge to any leader

So we are in a different political landscape than the one that we've all been used to

It not two and anyone paying attention can see that It is multi We got six seven parties It not just reform or even the Greens or the Lig You got S you got applied Rupert Lowe got a thing you know restore

And what this is saying is that the country is fragmenting. We want to bring people together

We know that we made mistakes. I've acknowledged, I've apologized, I've changed the policy

ECHR, for example, you know, lower taxes, abolishing stamp duty business rates, etc

Immigration, you've dealt with that too. Yes, exactly. We've got a very tough borders plan

Chris Philp, fantastic shadow home secretary. But it takes time to come back after you've had a historic defeat

The last oppositions were 18 years, 13 years, 14 years. I'm not in two years yet

It's going to take time, especially from the kind of defeats that we've suffered. And you can do that in one term, one five-year term

One term. Because of this fragmentation, we actually can do it in one term. But I want people to know what it is we're going to do

Not just loads of promises. you know, Nigel Farage will say whatever you want him to say

if you give him 70 quid on his cameo. I'm only going to say what I know we can actually deliver

You don't do cameo, do you? You're pretty harsh on Stella Braveman when she jumped ship

The party questioned her mental health. That was wrong. Do you want to apologise to her? No one said sorry to her

We have apologised. It should never have gone out. I did not see that

It was a junior person who put that out. They've been reprimanded. Did you say sorry to her

Because she told me no one's apologised to her. Yes, I know she keeps saying that. That's not quite true

But yes, well, I'm very sorry that that message was put out should not have happened

I hope that, you know, that this means that we can draw a line for the matter

And I think that would be nice. OK. For many on the right, it is a question of you or Nigel Farage

Do you think he's got the qualities to be leader? You've done it. You've run stuff, right

He hasn't. This is in opposition against everything. And he's asking people to take a risk on him, isn't he

with just a handful of MPs having never done anything yet. But you look at him, can he be Prime Minister

So I think that he thinks it's easy. Keir Starmer thought it was easy

I've seen Prime Ministers up close. Many people think they can do it

Oh, I've been Chancellor, I've been Foreign Secretary, I can be Prime Minister. It's 100 times harder

I think the best training for it is actually leader of the opposition. There's a reason why they call it the toughest job in politics

But, you know, the difference between us and reform is that they say things before working it out

We make sure we have a plan. We are the thoughtful right. We don't just rush out, you know, like Sarah Pochin did and say

oh, there are too many black and brown faces on the TV adverts. We actually say, well, here's what's wrong

You know, as Nick did yesterday, we don't think this is appropriate. This is how we should do these things

These are our principles. We start principles first. I mean, Sarah Pochin, that was a critique on DEI, wasn't it? on..

But it's not... That's what she was trying to say. Yeah, but it wasn't DEI. It's not because of DEI

that you have loads of people on TV adverts. What's happened is

and I do think there's over-representation, what's happened is, well, every company thinks

well, we've got to be inclusive. But when every single company is doing the same thing

then it actually changes. And there's a way... So you see what she meant

can you, in that case? Well, I know, but the thing is... As a black woman too, you may think, well, why are you saying that

No, no, no. The problem is that when you are careless with your language, there are ways

to say these things. She wasn't thinking about people like my kids. I've got, you know, three mixed race children

What would they think if they hear someone saying, oh, there are too many black and brown faces

They think, well, we've got brown faces. What's wrong with us? You have to, when you've got tough messages

you have to think very clearly about how you deliver them. That's what conservatives are about

Understood. You mentioned your children. Nick Timothy did say, didn't he, about the prayers in Trafalgar Square

What about Muslim people who vote Tory? Do they feel a bit excluded by you for supporting what he's saying

Yeah, because Nick is not attacking Islam. He was attacking the way that that event was being run

It was segregated. It was segregated, women pushed to the back. That makes me, as a woman, feel very uncomfortable

But the message I've been putting out, and you might remember I gave a speech earlier this month

on culture and integration, is that we're not doing identity politics anymore

That we are going to bring an end to identity politics in the state

The conservatives have tried this thing of, well, let's try and keep everybody happy. Now what we need to do is enforce British values

That's what we are about. And so it is about making sure that we're talking to people

because of the hard work that they're doing, not having something from

oh, well, here's something for this religious community. Here's something for that religious community

That's how you end up with two-tier justice and so on. What we're saying is that everyone be inclusive

practice your religion. We believe in freedom of religion, but do it in a way that does not cut across British values

If you are doing things, polygamy, you know, excluding women, segregating, etc., in a way that is not in accordance with British fathers, then no

And you look at Churchill being removed on five pound notes, which has really worried and offended Japanese viewers

Is that because we don't really teach Churchill properly in the schools? So people value wild animals or furry animals over something so important as Churchill

It's a really good point. It is yet another thing that is happening because people feel that they're not, it's not their job to push for positive stories about our heroes, about our leaders

But it should actually be the job. You go into other countries. I mean, who are the, on the American banknote

You've got George Washington, for goodness sake. Who wouldn't take him off a dollar

Exactly. And it's, there's a lot of unthinking in this. And what I would actually like to say is the prime minister saying, hang on, I don't want to see this

You know, you leave Churchill there. he's a hero is that he's doing the same thing he's taking his majesty out of um the government

it's now turning from his majesty's government to uk government i don't like that he's changing you

know he's changing so many things uh about our country so many traditions jury trials for example

he's got rid of um the hereditary pairs while putting people like matthew doyle the can you

know a friend of yet another um convicted uh sex offender uh women like ann lim who have bad um

CVs that are not kosher. Labour has a problem with CVs. Look at Rachel Rees, for example

Starmer is changing our country, and I don't like it. He wasn't going to tread lightly on us, wasn't he

when he became leader? No, this is not treading lightly. He's stomping. He's stomping

I'm holding my hand here. A report on, I think, quite a good policy

your government did, the Tory government did, offering free portraits of the king to public bodies

I'm struck by, though, who accepted these free portraits of the king, it cost us millions of pounds

20,000 or so were sent out. Only, extraordinarily, you might think, only 3% of

hospital managers accepted a portrait, it says here, 7.3% of universities. What is the problem here? Why don't

our public bodies appear to want to have the king on their walls? I think that there are many people who

they worry about things they don't need to be worried about. Somebody might be offended

so let's not do that. The fact is we are a constitutional monarchy

You know, I was at the state dinner yesterday as my leader of the opposition

I get invited to the state dinners. The king is the best of our brand

The royal family is the best of our brand. People look at them in awe

I think that they do so much good in this country. I very glad that it is the king and not Keir Starmer who is head of state quite frankly And that something that we should be proud of But we keep being told oh let keep this repressed it might upset some people someone worried about colonialism someone worried about racism or white privilege all of this rubbish needs to stop and

you get people who think well i don't want to have a row so i won't have a portrait on the king

in fact i think i'm going to check the conservative councils make sure every conservative council is

has one of these bit one of these well yeah well because now that you say it you know i'm going to

make sure to check. I think that's a good thing for us to do. I mean, a third of schools are telling not wanting a free picture of the king. It just

seems, what is going on? Why aren't we, as you say, it seems obvious to GB News viewers

It's with every generation. If you don't treasure your values, if you don't enforce limits

if you don't say, no, that's not good enough, then things get watered down. And the Conservative

party which I'm leading is one where I want us to be brave and proud and

stand up for those values. Patriotic maybe. Absolutely. And not be afraid of that term

Absolutely. We should not be afraid of the word patriotism. It's important. This was briefly before you have to go

On Donald Trump, you've taken a different view this week, I find interesting

on Keir Starmer and Donald Trump. You've called them childish spat. It does look a bit childish now

You're a leader of the next Prime Minister. It's my job to criticise Keir Starmer, okay

I want to be able to make sure that, you know, when he's doing something bad, that's my job

I have a political job. When Donald Trump says something I agree with, I will say I agree with it

When he does something which I disagree with, I will say so. It's not about, oh, I like Donald Trump, so you've got to say everything that

agree with everything he says, or I dislike Donald Trump, even when he makes sense, we will criticize

You have to look at what is right for the British national interest. It is not right

I can understand his criticisms of Keir Starmer. Trust me, the man annoys the whole country

but it was going on too long. I think he'd made his point

Right now, I think a war of words should happen behind closed doors

because Iran and Russia are watching and I don't want to see a breakdown

of the Western alliance. It matters so much in real depth and we've seen that

You spoke this week in favour of Shabana Mahmood, you said for PMT. But what she is doing

really what you didn't do, quite conservative policies really. Well, I was never a Home Secretary

I think I might have done it if I was Home Secretary. And two previous Home Sectories about that

You should ask Suella why she didn't do that. The tragedy stopped her, she says

Well, if I was Home Secretary, nobody would have stopped me. They didn't stop me from doing Section 35 and all the things I did

I was able to fight my battles. But the key thing is that immigration has been too high

We have to hold our hands up and say we took our eye off the ball

It was not deliberate. it. Everybody thought someone else was looking after it. Ministers thought civil servants were

managing it. Civil servants were not. We have to take responsibility for that. But what do we do now

We put out a policy on ILR as conservatives. You know, we've got a borders plan. And Siobhan is

actually taking some of that. So I'm not going to complain. I don't mind if Labour steals our

policies. I mind when they do stupid things. And I also know that there is a shadow Labour

Labour leadership contest. They are gunning for Keir Starmer. Angela Rayner has, you know, thrown a shot

fired a shot across the bowels, and she's trying to water these down. So I'm saying

to Starmer, we have numbers, we have votes, we will support you. You'll love that

Well, I have to do my job. Because at the end of the day, our country is

our home. It is not a hotel. It's not a dormitory. The people who come

to this country need to love it. They need to want to be a part of it. It's not

just a place where they can just, you know, work and not be a part of it. What's your vice to kiss on against

Angela Rayner? You've seen off your challenges. I mean, you even met Boris Johnson last week and no one blinked

an eye, it wasn't it? He's always been very supportive. Angela Rayner, is it by advice for Angela

Rayner? Well, as I said at PMQs yesterday, Angela Rayner and I both want to see that weak man opposed

to a strong woman. I'm hoping that it'll be me. And just finally, the one thing I thought was puzzling

this week from your party, you didn't oppose increasing the number of paid ministers

to 120 from 109 in House of Commons. Now, that is interesting

because I think your policy is to cut the size of government if you win power. So why are you allowing Labour to have more 600,000 quid of our money every year

on more paid ministers? Well, because ministers are already there. They're doing the work

That's not how you cut the size of government. You cut the size of government by stopping government from doing stupid things

What I want to see... It's our money, though. Yes, it is. So let's have fewer ministers, fewer civil servants, fewer departments

Well, no, actually. We just voted that the people, that everybody should be paid

Who paid? I think that there are a lot of people now... About 11 aren't paid at the moment, I think

Sorry? About 11 aren't paid, I think. Yes, I think it is quite difficult to get people to go into politics

So I think that they should be paid. I don't think that that's a bad principle. Let's reduce the size of government, yes

but the ones we do have, we should pay them. Okay, just fine. The National Anthem playing at your conference this year

I always play it at our conference. Of course you do. Yeah, always. It became a row out of nowhere last week

Well, yes, well, the person who started the row has now gone to reform, so I think we know why he started that row

Listen, Karen Bedlock, thank you for joining us. You're really busy and the team has to go and take you away

But thank you for joining us today on Chopper's particular podcast. Thank you. Thank you. Hello, I'm Bev Turner

Now, it can feel like the money in our bank accounts at the moment does not keep up with the cost of living

And maybe there's a solution. I'm here today with the CEO of Tally Money, Cameron Parry

Cameron, what is Tally Money? Well, Bev, with telemoney, you get a current account and a debit card

But instead of pounds, you use milligrams of gold as your everyday money

So why gold? Gold traditionally is a great store of value. It has, on average, gone up at over 11% per annum for the last 25 years against the pound

It's tripled in value in the last decade. And in the last two years alone, it's increased by 50% against the pound

Banks' savings products just can't compete with that level of growth. But this isn't just about gold

This is about a currency that you guys have created at Tally Money

Explain it to me as though I'm an idiot. So, look, people need to be able to hold their earnings

and build their savings in a money that retains its value and remains in their legal control and remains theirs to access

away from government control. Great. You had me at not exposed to government control

You should feel safe and happy with your money. You should have peace of mind. The more money you see in your bank balance, and that's the type of thing we're trying to deliver, and give people choice in the type of money they get to use every day

Brilliant. Thank you so much, Cameron. Thank you. I want to ask a bigger question that affects us all

Is the special relationship in peril? Is this personal bromance between the Prime Minister Sirius Dahmer

and the President of the United States, Donald Trump, fizzling out? I'm delighted to be joined by my friend and colleague from GB News, Bev Turner, who, of course, is in Washington

Bev, welcome to the podcast. Oh, thank you, Chris. It's so nice to see you. Honestly, I feel all alone out here

So to see a friendly face is so nice You do feel alone but you made friends there notably friends in Donald J Trump He a big fan of yours I was with you wasn I in that golfing resort in the

west of Scotland last August, last July, last August, I think from memory, when he took a

shine to you. That feels like a lifetime ago, Chris, doesn't it? Yeah, that was. Okay, so that

was my first air force one trip as trump was going over to open his golf course as you say

and you and i found ourselves in that vast ballroom that he had at the golf course and in the middle of

it was the press pack and i thought donald trump had actually orchestrated it very cleverly because

it was very intimidating for anybody walking into that space it was like a little lion's den wasn't

in the middle of this vast amphitheatre. And they had the dignities on one side

They had the president and the prime minister sat together. And then there was actually a rather small number of press that day

because I think, I don't know about you, but I think the British press had sort of underestimated

what that weekend was going to be like from a media point of view. Don't you

Yes, yes, definitely. I mean, he basically constructed what you see in the Oval Office, didn't he

A kind of horseshoe with him at the end with the, well

It felt like he was in charge when, in fact, he's on UK sovereign territory

But it felt like, frankly, Keir Starmer was his guest when normally it's the other way around

He made it into a kind of quasi-oval office situation, hadn't he? He had. And I've subsequently found out, which I didn't know on the day, and I don't think I've even told you this

but apparently the conversations behind the scenes were that Starmer's people said

we're just going to give it like 10 minutes. We're just going to talk to Threaty 10 minutes

And the president said, we're going to take as long as it takes

And then he led them out into the room. He gave the prime minister absolutely no opportunity to wrap that up

And when you and I got the prime minister in our sights, frankly

and the president there to answer the questions, apparently the number 10 press team were desperately trying to wind it up

And there was nothing they could do. So they were sat then and they were in the lion's den and they couldn't escape

And it was brilliant from our point of view, because everything that America is doing well is everything that the UK is doing badly

And that's why those questions that day for you and I were like shooting fish in a barrel

So when I said to the prime minister, you must be very envious of the president's success with stopping illegal migration

with the best will in the world he's made it look easy now what could starma say to that because he

couldn't say no i'm not jealous actually because he'd be offending his host who holds that as his

badge of honor and he couldn't say yes i am jealous because it would have been admitting that

he's getting it wrong in the uk so he ended up you remember he just sort of went um um and it

became a mean it's because he seems so our prime minister seems so impotent again we're talking

midweek this week. Again, hundreds of people have crossed the southern border

into the UK from northern France. And what can the PM do

He says he wants to smash the gangs. The last Prime Minister said he would stop the boats

The last Prime Minister failed in that. He was rightly, I think, punished at the election

at the ballot box. This may well happen again for this Prime Minister

And already we're seeing pushback from the left of the Labour Party, to Angela Rayner over reducing indefinite leave to remain

Shabana Mahmood, I think, is making the right moves, I think, to control the southern border, but it's being attacked now by the left

because they're worried about the Greens. It's complicated. What you have in Donald Trump, though, is someone who sees the problem

and, frankly, fixes it and moves on. And the PM can just, well, do nothing, really, in the same way

And actually, I think that's right, because what you're seeing there is very, very strong leadership. But leadership doesn't work if you don't have the right people

that are underneath you. And I don't believe that this president gets enough credit, actually

for the people that he's hired. Tom Plumlin, who was always the illegal migrations are

under subsequent previous presidents as well, he is phenomenal. Now, Trump has come in and he's

empowered that man to do what he couldn't do under previous administrations because he didn't have

the resources but it wouldn't work if trump wasn't backing his aim as well and he has proven

i think to the world and particularly to the uk if they you have the will and you are prepared

to have the backbone you can do it but the problem is well but of course you're right the problem

here is we're governed by extraterritorial laws the european convention on human rights

which Donald Trump just says, well, he doesn't have that, of course, not being in Europe or even have to sign up to that

So he does his own thing. And that's where reform come in. They're saying, well, we can do what Trump's doing. We can rip up all these international treaties and do our own thing

The risk, I suppose, is can they? Can they? They should be able to, but can they

It's about thinking like a lawyer or thinking like a businessman. dharma is first and foremost a lawyer and he will always be a lawyer so he sees everything

through the prism of the courts yeah president trump couldn't give a fig about the courts

and that's what makes him such a refreshing politician he's transactional he thinks like

a businessman he is a television presenter he thinks about the presentation of these things all

the time and how you sell it to your audience. He is a family man and he thinks about it with the

kind of compassionate, patriarchal determination that fathers have for people that they care about

But I think it's no question, I think, that what the left don't get about Trump is that he isn't yet

you're right, he's a grandfather. He wants to, if we look at this, what he talks about with Ukraine

he sees both sides of a ledger. He sees thousands of Russian young boys being killed

He knows, and we don't report them because Ukraine don't allow us to, but he'll know the numbers of Ukrainians being killed in that war

which looks senseless increasingly, and he wants to end that suffering. I think that's where he comes from

He gets zero credit for that, I think, from his critics. Yeah, and actually, I don't think at the moment he's got the stomach

for a long, drawn-out, protracted Middle Eastern war in which American soldiers will die

I don't know whether he was not informed, perhaps, about the potential longevity of this conflict

but I know he won't like it. He wants the Nobel Peace Prize. He wants to be known as the President of Peace

And if Iran isn't wrapped up fairly quickly, he will start to lose patience with that

Well, just on that, he came in, didn't he, promising no more foreign wars

I mean, that was one of his big things. And now he's involved in a foreign war, although it's a war from the air

We hear reports that the thousands of Marines are being shipped in from, I think it's Japan

somewhere in the Far East anyway, or into the area of the Gulf. How is it playing out

I mean, you were in the Oval Office this week on Tuesday. We'll come to what he said to you in a minute, but you were there

How is it playing out domestically? Because he is now getting involved in a foreign war

a war he said he wouldn't get involved in. There are lots of different polls around this

that will tell you different things, depending on who has conducted the poll. Fox News did a poll that showed about 50-50

of the American population is on board, 50% not. You will see other polls, particularly those of

the very young male MAGA base that will tell you this is incredibly unpopular. They don't believe

that there was ever an imminent threat to the US from Iran. They don't see how it fits with

hashtag America first agenda. And of course, we had the letter this week from Joe Kent

director of counterintelligence saying that he couldn't support this war because there was no

imminent threat from Iran and because Donald Trump had basically been played by Israel to go in and

have this war on the behalf of Israel and all of those young right-wing MAGA commentators even the

podcast base have done it they all threw their hands up and they just went see see this is what

we've been saying. This is an Israeli war in the Middle East. This is Benjamin Netanyahu

And you, Trump, with your Israel lobbyists, have been conned into it. It looks very much like a

smoking gun for that particular narrative. It was mentioned in the Oval Office, Chris, as you say

he dismissed the letter and he doubled down and doubled down. The one thing you can say about

President Trump is that when he's in a corner, he rolls up his sleeves, he flexes his biceps

and he becomes more and more entrenched into his position. But also in Yeovil, he pointed, didn't he

you were there at the famous bust of Churchill, said again that Keir Starmer is no Churchill

He keeps having a go at Keir Starmer on energy policy, on immigration policy, those two areas he goes after

our Prime Minister on. What is going on? At the press conference on Monday here in Number 10

And I asked the prime minister on a scale of one to 10, one being very bad, 10 being very good

How would you rate your relationship with the president of the United States? He just said we had a good conversation on Sunday when they last spoke on Sunday for a quarter of an hour

So he wouldn't go there. But where would you rate that relationship? And why has it got so bad

I know for a fact that those phone calls that they have with number 10 are dreaded and difficult

I know for a fact and I think why has it got so bad these two men are so politically ideologically

so far apart it was almost a miracle that they ever had a relationship in the first place

you've got President Trump libertarian small state arguing for low tax protected borders

no men in women's sports looking for um uh what's he got all of the tax cuts is the one that really

always strikes me law and order um not afraid to take on uh international regimes if necessary

and then you've got keir starmer for whom everything is so opposite to what president

trump wants to do and you might say okay we have a different economic situation we don't have the

financial and economic strength of America. We don't have a huge amount of choice, but I think

there's always choice. And particularly on some of the identity politics, where Starmer is still

embracing the DEI agenda, where he's still celebrating thousands of Muslims praying in

Trafalgar Square because he sees that as an important part of our national identity

You have President Trump ripping up DEI initiatives, taking all the funding out of

them on a government level, poking very hard to define and protect a conserved American

national sense of who it is. They always clearly have been civil because they're adults and they

speak the same language and they are culturally similar and they are polite, both of them

They believe in manners. I do believe that very, very much. When you've seen them together

as we saw them up in Scotland and at the state visit as well. They are courteous, they are convivial, they are polite

And I don't think that will change. I think if Starmer was to fly in tomorrow and go into the Oval Office

Trump would shake his hand. They would appear to the world to be getting along very well

But we know that fundamentally underneath it, they have nothing in common

they would never choose outside of the world of politics to go for dinner together they would

never choose to go and play a round of golf together that is just not who they are they

are not each other's people and unfortunately within the midst of that the UK will not do well

I fully believe we will not do well from America you only have to see how Trump embraced the

Taoiseach Michael Martin on St. Patrick's Day recently and how close that relationship was

You just know that if Michael Martin wanted to pick up the phone to Trump and say, can we talk about something that I want you

to help me fix it, he'd do it. Dharma doesn't have that relationship with this city

In this town, it's all about relationships. And yet I remember when he was saying he was going to drain

the farmer money out of Ireland and repatriate the States. That was about a year ago

That was in the Oval Office too. I mean, I think it seems quite a capricious thing

You can be in or out with Kirsten. I mean, the king, our king is meant to be in Washington or in America

towards the end of next month. And with him, almost certainly, travels the prime minister

So you might see this relationship having a rapprochement between the two men

They are completely different. But he did get a good deal on trade, didn't he

I mean, you know, a few short months ago, it was going quite well

I think the problem has been this legal approach to the UK response on Iran

Yes, it's left, to my mind, the UK in a good place with public opinion here, but we weren't quick enough to move assets into the region when it was clear what was going to happen in January or even late last year

That didn't happen. So we were left trying to scramble to get a response going. Let the French defend Cyprus. We're nowhere around. We've got the ships in dry dock being repaired

It just looked like a chaotic response that we weren't part of that conversation which Donald Trump was having with his own team

and actually i think what's become clear is it's in a nutshell president trump loves the uk he

tolerates keir starmer and his politics let's say it like that i think it's he loves the uk

he likes keir starmer as a man and he tolerates his politics that's that and that is where i think

that relationship sits there. And as you say, the trade deal was

pretty good for the UK but it not because of Starmer having built up a really warm and trusted relationship It is simply because President Trump is sentimental about the UK

As he said, every time I've spoken to him, my mother was Scottish, you know, I know. My mother

was Scottish. And, you know, I have Scottish blood in my... He is so... And he loves his golf courses

He loves our country. It's one of the reasons, I'm sure it's one of the reasons why him and I get along so well

because he loves the accent. He loves the Britishness that I bring into the room. And whilst we have a president who feels like that, we should be making the most of it

because we will probably never have that again. Because if J.D. Mance or Marco Rubio, who I would put my money on, is the next president

they're not going to look at the UK through those rose-tinted glasses. They're not going to be sentimental about our country

This is our last chance to work with a president that cares about us

We don't know who the Democrat candidate will be. We don't know. Democrats might win the next election. But again, we won't have a mother that was born in the UK

If we can't have the most solid relationship with this man, we will never have it again

And yet you've got to ask, how much does it really matter? because the special relationship is this multifaceted relationship

on many, many levels going right down into the deep state. We share security information

We have a common language, common family members. If the top two people have a difficult personal special relationship

I mean, really, really, does that matter long term? I mean, Donald Trump, it seems to me

in quite a rush to do things before the midterms in November because then he loses the majority in the Senate

that will crimp his style. So he's in quite a rush to make things happen

Before I go, I've got to ask you about how nice he was to you

Now, when I was in the Oval Office February last year, pointing a microphone at him, he said

I've got a nice face, always smiling, but it asked me a killer question

which I put into my Twitter bio. And he said, didn't he, this week, that you're a fantastic reporter

Go ahead, please. His stomach isn't made... She's a fantastic reporter, by the way

Go ahead. The Prime Minister isn't making the case to the British public as to why he should be supporting you

Could you do that now and talk to the UK, to GB News viewers, about why it's in their interest that we help you

Well, because we have a tremendous long-term relationship with the UK. I mean, people would say it's the best

I don't want to get into that, but we've had, who's the longest, the oldest, should be the best

always was the best until Kier came along and now and I like him he's a nice man he says everything

beautiful he's a very nice man with a beautiful family everything's perfect but he he doesn't

produce and I think it it's very inexpensive I just said you don't have to send me aircraft

carriers send me a couple of minesweepers we don't need your aircraft carriers but even the aircraft carriers he would only send them after we essentially won I mean he's sending

them when there are no planes left, when the missiles are down to 8 percent. They have like

8 percent of the missiles. The rest, we demolish the missiles. And the factories, largely the

factories are going even as we speak. They just hit another factory. They may have a lot of

they have a lot of missile factories. They have a lot of drone factories. And so he's, you know

wants to send them when we don't need them. But we'd like to have minesweepers, because just in

case. We don't know that there are any mines now, because we wiped out, I think, 24. They actually

have think of this for country they have 24 boats that do nothing but put mines in the water

this doesn't sound like a great country this doesn't sound like a friendly country but we

killed all of those boats they're at the bottom of the sea but we so we don't even know if there

are any mines there but if there are you know we'd like to have a little help in finding them

most probably most importantly believe me i no one was more shocked by that than i was chris

I obviously have spent a bit of time with him on Air Force One

I was there at the state visit and we were there in Scotland together and then I obviously had that lovely interview with him in November

which was hooked onto the BBC and the legal action he's taking against them

and on that particular day, it was Friday it was 3 o'clock in the afternoon

it ended up being 4 o'clock in the afternoon and they said, you've got 20 minutes with it and I thought, no, his helicopter is literally waiting on the lawn

to take him to Mar-a-Lago on a cold Washington day. And I thought, right, I'm going to get three questions

and we're going to be out of here. And I managed to keep him sat down for 45 minutes

and managed to eke out another question and just one more and just one more. And obviously, and he was lovely

And at the end of it, he sort of shook my hand and he said, you're fantastic, great interview. And then yesterday when we were there and he said

and it's the first time I've seen him in a while because Jiban used to get access to that pool group very often

for people who don't understand how these kind of things work. And what that means, what is a pool group to those who aren't in Washington

So the White House is incredibly informal, but also very organised, is the best way I can describe it

And so they will publish who has been chosen to be the media representatives

on any particular day. So GB News is in that mix. But of course, our viewers in the UK don't vote for President Trump

So we are, as international press, never as important as Fox News, CNN, NBC

and Washington Post, all the American outlets are there to portray him to the voters. So when we can

I have always managed to chop my elbows. You know, my mother says, if you don't ask, you don't get

Beverly. I managed to get in there as much and be pushing, build up relationships and build up

friendships in that building, which I've managed to do. And so yesterday with the Irish Taoiseach

being there, they put us into that pool. Do you want to come in? Yes. Straight away, of course I do

because I knew that I would also get eye contact with the president. And so he saw me across the room

And then he asked me, then he came to me for a question. And that was when he said, oh, she's a fantastic reporter, by the way

I was like, oh, OK, what do I say? I was like, thanks

What do you say in that situation? It's almost a bit embarrassing as well with all the other reporters there

You think, oh, I'm sorry. Anyway, and then I asked the question and then he took another question

And then he had one more question at the end and he was like, you. And he came to me again and I was like, that's so great

It was so satisfying and so lovely because we work so hard here, Chris, in DC

We don't have a big team, as you know. Our team is all in London. It's me and Ben Leo and a cameraman, Ben Davidge

That is it. I think we've got somebody coming out. But we are flying solo here and we punch way above our weight

If I can just show you, this is my breakfast here. I won't get time to eat it. I won't get time to eat it because we do work incredibly long hours

But so when you get those moments of satisfaction when the president knows who you are, it's it's worth all the effort

It's worth all the work. And yeah. And so it's yeah, it's very satisfying

And of course, you interviewed him, didn't you? I mean, it's a hard interview to do

If you go in there all guns blazing like maybe some British reporters want you to do you don get better answers and I think you were trying to talk to him in that long interview you did by understanding him as a guy

as a grandfather I think you asked that one question didn't you about him being a grandfather you're trying to draw him out which is a way often as a podcast interview way too you're trying

and draw someone out rather than try and bat the doors down and have a big row and everyone

everyone it looks a bit of a kind of macho contest you're trying to draw him out and understand him

better yeah that will never be my interview style no matter who i am interviewing i never want to do

a gotcha question i will never go into there hoping to get somebody on something they weren't

expecting i don't think the british public want that it's a very old-fashioned style of journalism

you don't do it either chris it's a very establishment style of conversation of journalism

i prefer conversations i think i go in there with some set questions i had in mind thematically but

I was by no means going to stick to them. I didn't look at my paper once that I had on my knee because it's more important to listen to a man like that

No, you've got to listen and then find find the in and find this humanity

Because what a lot of people said to me, actually, which was very complimentary after the interview was that I've never seen him like that

I've never seen him have his guard down like that. And that's not to say that I wouldn't ask him difficult questions

that comes with time. It would have been completely inappropriate in that first interview to be asking about Epstein

A, I don't think our audience on GB News particularly care about Epstein. That's not the job to do that

But then it wasn't the same issue as it is now, basically, was it? It hadn't quite risen up the agenda in the same way

Not quite. It was there, bobbling away on the horizon. It was bobbling away

It was there on the horizon. But again, I don't think our audience

really care in GB News. I don't think, for me, that I'm not that interested in the Epstein scandal

We'll never see anybody done for sex crimes, too much water under the breach, too much time. We're doing a good job in the UK on the financial crimes

That is it. For me, that is as far as I think it's going to go. And also, what was the other thing I got criticised for asking him about

at the time? I can't really remember. They were saying, the critics were saying he didn't push back enough

on the interview. He didn't push back on things he was saying to you. Yeah

And there probably is some, I would hold my hands up and say, yes, I think that is a fair criticism

I would take that. But I would also say that for my first time sitting down with the president, my job is not there to mess it up on behalf of GB News

I am not there to upset him. We haven't got, we hadn't got that trust

And with those sorts of characters, you have to build up absolute trust

I can ask anybody anything. I genuinely, you know me well, I don't mind

I like the difficult conversations. I love the difficult conversations. They're my favourite ones. But not on that day, at that time, with that man

On the long game. Professional. Just fine. I've got to ask you, did you have his mobile phone number

like everyone else seems to in Washington? I do now. Do you want to rig it now

I do not. um but let's just say there's been a lot of horse trading in this town going on about the phone

number i didn't get involved in that but i do now i do have the phone but i don't think it's the kind

of thing you use um thoughtlessly because also there are there are protocols in this town there

are respects that have to be paid to people who have certain jobs and i think that um i think that's

really important and one of the reasons that I am respected here is because I do respect those

those protocols and I respect I think what you're saying is probably that the his press team don't

like you phoning it I can only imagine if Keir Starmer made his number available we just ringing

his number all the time his press team would hate that because they lose all control over it so

yeah I can I can understand you want to play the game you want to get invited into the pool

be in the oval for things and if you start ringing him all the time they won't ask you into the oval

office so you i can understand how that works as a it's a delicate balance it's a delicate balance

in terms of getting that right however he is the boss capital t capital b and if he said he wants

to take a call from people then he'll take a call yeah well ring him ring him soon then if you feel

you can we look forward to seeing the result on gb news bev turner finish your toast great to have

you on Choppers Political Podcast from the States. Sending huge love to you, of course, as a friend

Just take care. Be safe. Keep doing the great work. Thank you for joining

us on Choppers Political Podcast. With me now is James Tunbridge, who is

in quotes, the Attorney General for the putative Chagos Islands government. James Tunbridge, welcome

Thank you very much. You're not really the Attorney General. or you're a lawyer in London helping them, but you..

No, no. I mean, I was appointed in the same way that the Prime Minister would do so here

The reason is simple. The Chagosians have got on the island. How they got there doesn't matter, but they're there

They want to get recognised. We've been working on the recognition of their government for months

Yep. And obviously, with the difficulty of communication, that role allows me to speak on their behalf

to get them recognised, which we are working on. And there's five actual Chagosians there with Holloway

this former Tory MP? there are six Chagossians on the island Adam Holloway is no longer on the island

he was taken away apparently he'd had an accident may have broken his leg or something

and so they took him away oh so he's gone he's there he's not there now yeah so your actual six Chagossians

who are either born on the island or whose parents are born on the island so one of them was born on the island

one of them was in his mother's womb when she was deported gosh

and the other four are descendants and they feel deeply emotional I spoke to Missy Mandarin

earlier this week at a launch of a document is titled this

A New Beginning Resettling the British Indian Ocean Territory. Yes. It is interesting, this document

because it's the first time I've ever seen anything which suggests ways that schools can be set up

roads, boats, how many people could survive on each of the islands

in the archipelago, how to work alongside the Diego Garcia base. It's quite comprehensive

It's a manual setting up a new country. Yes. That's quite a moment, right

It's huge. And it's the thing that we really want to get across because there's been protests for some time to get them recognised

But they really want to go home. They want to create a settlement. They want to be a British overseas territory

They want to be following sort of general British laws. And they want to govern themselves to a degree

just the same way that Faulkner Islands does. You know, having recognition is important

And that goes to the heart of their justification, self-determination. That's why Gibraltar is not Spanish

That's why Falklands are British and Argentinian, because the people living there, overwhelmingly, over 90% of people living there, say in referenda they want to stay British

That's right. You haven't been able to do that in this case. You've got several thousand of Chegossians living near Gatwick Airport around Crawley

Yes. You've tried to poll as many as you can. Yes. And the poll found they want Chegossians to be British but it not a referendum yet It not a legal referendum yet Well it part of how you look at legal I mean I was consulted We made sure that we did it in alignment with expected polling practices

and legal structures. If you were doing it with the government, the way that it was done would be the same way

So there was a reach out to all the Chagosians that we could find. Who are these people

These are first generation? And where do you... So there are several hundred Chagosians still alive

that were born on the islands that were deported, but they're all in their 70s now, generally speaking

That happened by the Labour government in 68. Yes, Harold Wilson decided to remove them in the late 60s

By the 70s, they were gone. Tony Blair then took away what's called their right of abode

which is something that we've been legally fighting ever since. And then Keir Starmer, the Labour prime minister

wants to give the islands away entirely. I do think it's appalling, by the way

I think it's an outrage, really, this is happening. The only thing is, every time we go near a court or parliament

the first thing they say is, we are terribly sorry, it's an outrage. And then they do nothing about correcting the wrong

We're told it's to do with, obviously, the international courts fining against the UK for controlling the islands

We'd be more isolated post-Brexit. The European Union doesn't support us any more than that

That's a problem. Well, let me just pick up on the first one, because that is often..

First of all, it's an advisory opinion, which we are not bound by. And in fact, there's an opt-out between Commonwealth countries

But regardless of all of that, there's a committee at the UN that looks at racial equality issues

And twice last year, they called on the UK Mauritius to stop this deal because the Chagosians are not involved

And that's where I got involved originally. It was asking a court to force the government to consult them

that to me is the heart of the story it's the right to self-determination

it's being ridden roughshod over by this government in the interest of national security

there's concerns about I think radar posts in the area we've got a bit of that from the government

when they're trying to defend it not fully clear what all that means and there you go

it's a very important area militarily yes for the vessels can go there

refuel it's a port It's also a landing strip. Donald Trump wanted to try and bomb Iran from it

The UK government says no, didn't they? And only allowing... Yes, and they consulted Mauritius on that

Yeah, and that's one of the reasons the Americans are so concerned. We haven't given it to Mauritius yet, but we're already consulting Mauritius

And Mauritius has different allies and different objectives. They're very close. Did the UK consult Mauritius on that decision

Yes. And they may have said, we don't give permission. That is alarming for the UK

Well, I think that's the heart of why the Americans have woken up. They realise that actually, and think about what Trump said about Greenland

He said it wasn't enough to lease. You had to have some sovereignty. Well, we're going to lose sovereignty here

And we're going to lose the ability to make that call. It's all about sovereignty

So much of politics is about sovereignty. Brexit was about sovereignty. It was. The way the US is about sovereignty behaving now is about sovereignty

Yes. This is about sovereignty. I think that's what it seems that the left don't understand in politics nowadays

That could be true. And the thing that I've always found strange is why do these people not deserve consultation

You know, they would not do this to other populations. It's not their fault that they were removed from the islands

There's now some on the island. And that, of course, is deeply inconvenient to the British government

How many? So you've got six there now. How many more might be landing? More Chagossians arriving

Is that possible? Not at the moment. One of the things that is really important that this document explains is that we want to see

as a British territory, a British crown within the law. We want to create a community and we don't want to have a constant struggle

We're not looking to be outlaws here. So we don't want anybody else arriving without a permit or unlawfully

We're going to protest. We want the stealth determination. We want to build a settlement

But we don't need any more stunts. We now need to persuade the British government and the crown to let us repopulate

Have you appealed to the king? Yes. Yes. We have not had a response to a letter to Buckingham Palace

When was that sent? Oh, some time ago. I think in January

I mean, look at this document here. It talks about burials, cremate, burial

it was contaminated with groundwater and etc. Health, education, roads and boats, sports and recreation

A lot of thought, including the economy. And the economy, tourism being the one

In the 1960s, although the reason given was the American base, the Americans don't have a problem with the Outer Islands being populated

I think you can't prove it, but the government of the day was perhaps concerned about the

cost of looking after a remote population. It's changed now. On that, it is in the middle of nowhere, the Cheyote Islands

It's definitely remote. It's remote, right? It takes a long time to get there. Yes. Mauritius is 1,000 miles away or more than that

Yeah, about 1,200, I think. Thank you. And Maldives? Maldives is the closest, and that's about 900

Sri Lanka is the largest land mass. I mean, actually, seaplanes from the Maldives have the range now to fly to the outer islands where Misley is

Misley Mandarin being there. Misley Mandarin, exactly. And therefore, you've got supply options

You've got tourist options. It's only one day sail from Diego Garcia if there was an agreement that when the Americans resupply their base

can we have an extra crate of Coca-Cola for the island? Yeah, it's doable, isn't it

It's totally doable. If the will is there. Yes. And I think that actually it's the win-win-win because it removes the arguments with the likes of Mauritius

If the population are there and want to be British, there's no argument about anything

We can get past all this stuff. That trumps all to me. It does. That simple argument trumps all. Totally

And then the Americans can be more relaxed about the base. The Brits remain relevant

And we actually have an opportunity to right that wrong. James Sundbridge, thank you for joining us

Where can our viewers and listeners find this document? It's very interesting. It's the birth of a nation, frankly

It is. It's published by a charity, the Friends of the Overseas Territories

FOTBOT. FOTBOT. It's Friends of the Overseas Territories, British Overseas Territories. Is it on a website somewhere

It is. It's www.fotbot.org. There we go. Well, we'll keep covering this on GV News

following this story. I find it fascinating, and it goes to the heart of so much that matters, I think

in modern-day politics. Thank you very much. Thanks for joining us today. Pleasure. Chopper's Political Podcast, James Tunbridge

James Tunbridge, thank you. And thank you to all our guests this week on Chopper's Political Podcast

Kevin Badenock, James Tunbridge and, of course, Bev Turner. I tweet Christopher Hope on X

Do let me know what you think about this podcast. email me chopper at gbnews.uk if you enjoyed this show please do tell your friends if you really

enjoyed the show leave a five star rating and a review on apple podcast spotify anywhere else you

see the podcast or hear it that helps other people to find the show that's how this algorithm works

thanks to the great team of gb news colleagues behind the podcast mick booker and jeff marsh

back at base camp and of course rebecca noons and george mcmillan the but be worker bees who

We produce this podcast every week without complaint. But most importantly of all, thank you again for being here

listening. Tune in next time. But from me, here in St John's, Smithsburg. Cheerio