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We chat to the lovely @jordansorcery and discuss, amongst other things, his passion of the History of Games Workshop and the Old World!
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0:00
hi I'm pachy hello I'm Patrick hi I'm Jeff and today we are joined by our
0:05
guest if you've not seen the other video where we have a quiz it's Jordan sorcery thank you for coming on Jordan thank you
0:10
for doing the quiz as well obviously this is a separate chat we we've had a nice quiz uh I won't tell you one spoilers um but really appreciate a lot
0:18
of effort went into that so a lot of our viewers might not know who you are and if you don't why don't
0:24
you Link's in the description um who is Jordan sorcery because a lot of our viewers we we just go into com
0:30
they like to know a bit about you you know what what is your channel what is the purpose of it so if you could give us a brief sort of overview of the
0:37
Jordan sorcery Channel sure yeah trying to really boil down the Jordan sorcery experience into a couple of lines well
0:45
we' got to whole out to expand on it but that sounds that sounds like a good album The Jan sorer
0:50
experience yeah I've definitely started from a place of like sheer arrogance and huis and now I'm going to have to bring
0:55
it down a little bit but yeah it's so I like to delve into the history of Games
1:02
Workshop games and and lore and the sort of behind the scenes stuff as much as possible yeah cuz I like sort of
1:09
exploring okay how did all these games that we love come to be what they are today yeah you know who created them
1:16
what was the sort of environment they were working in what was the business like when they first started and then how did that evolve and change over time
1:22
cuz so much of it did evolve and change over time to sort of get to where it is now um see you do it well cuz we're just
1:29
lazy we just the people in New just got to tell us how they to do might have a quick reading the book
1:35
beforeand and that's it but that well I mean yeah that's a super interesting part of it though as
1:41
well so I've been lucky enough to get a couple of interviews myself and talked to some of these people who were there at the start and were involved and and
1:48
Through the Years and getting their perspectives on it is so interesting because they don't always line up or
1:55
obviously we all sort of remember things slightly differently or didn't see the whole story and everyone's been so
2:01
generous with their sort of times and their their Recollections but it's piecing it all together you know I'm not
2:07
I'm not a historian but I like to think it's almost that kind of historian approach to trying to sort of say okay
2:14
so it seems like this is what happened and this is why those decisions were made but then this other interview or
2:21
conversation or bit of History sort of gives a slightly different perspective on it so maybe there was something else happening in the background so trying to
2:27
bring all of that together it's not just Games Workshop stuff but that's been a big love of my life from a hobby
2:32
perspective so that's where I tend to focus a lot of my time yeah yeah yeah so
2:38
I stumbled across here a few months back now and I started listening to I oh this
2:43
is interesting I think the first one I I because I I love MIM and I think you were discussing MIM at one point and I
2:49
was like this is interesting but what I really like is there's a lot of law channels out there that talk about internal law and it's very sort of like
2:56
about Space Marines and talking about Space Marines or talking about necam or whatever and whereas the stuff that you
3:03
do is a bit of that but also it's like you said the who was working on the book
3:08
at this time and what happened and I'm always like it's almost like you were there and you're like oh no I just did
3:13
some research I'm just like yeah I know but the way you talk about as if you were their experience it's like a proper documentary of of the years of all the
3:20
different I know you've kept a mainly War a fantasy battle at the moment which is great cuz that's a big love of mine
3:26
he obviously two big 40K fans so what hmer what Warhammer fantasy
3:34
battle I'll introduce you to it later it's a new game coming out next year yeah yeah that's it I've I've heard of
3:40
that one I've heard of that one yeah yeah which is weird cuz it's new like
3:45
it's unreleased how's it all bases aren't
3:50
R so I mean how did that you what what happened just one day you just thought
3:56
you know what I'm going to do this for the internet or was that something you were always interested in before beforehand and you thought I'm going to stop putting this information onto a
4:02
platform yeah I mean it's uh I suppose it's probably not the most interesting
4:08
story really but um I'll see if I can spice it up with with I'll drop some
4:13
lies in there go Michael B but I I was not having a great time at
4:20
work so I was you know just doing my regular job and I was looking for that sort of creative outlet and I'd seen
4:27
over the course of the pandemic and Co obviously loads of new channels and I was watching YouTube a lot more some
4:33
really exciting interesting stuff that was just out there that people were talking about and it kind of filled me
4:38
with this desire to want to do something myself and to sort of put something out there on YouTube and I cannot paint like
4:47
pretty much at all I'm really really bad um and it's just never been the sort of big part of my hobby so I obviously
4:55
loads of channels focus in on that kind of stuff and I enjoy that sort of stuff as well I enjoy watching it but I can't
5:01
contribute that I couldn't add that so I was looking for something that I could add myself and probably besides the
5:07
stories and the sort of narratives of Games Workshop games and and other games as well the big thing that I do is
5:14
collect stuff yeah so I was like well how can I turn the what I do and my version of the hobby into a channel and
5:20
it kind of felt like well if I can sort of then tell the story of the collection so everything that was released over a
5:27
period of time when did it come out who did it you know where would you have found it how did it relate to everything
5:33
else and kind of sort of you know put that into into the piece and there's other channels that do similar stuff and
5:38
and have been a big inspiration to me I mean Arbitron and sniping wh and those guys are doing really really fun stuff so I was like well that's cool maybe I
5:44
can sort of put my spin on that kind of thing and sort of bring it bring it to life and then I started doing the
5:51
Warhammer fantasy sort of making of series and in my head it was just going to be a really quick I'll just run
5:57
through all the additions eight editions and I'll just go bang you know first edition came out and they released this
6:02
expansion second edition came out and they did this and then it sort of started to expand as I researched it and
6:09
that's when it kind of turned into more of a documentary thing I think um and then it kind of grew arms and legs and I
6:15
sort of I I got more and more into can I tell the story of the creation of these
6:21
games and I don't know that I've got there yet but I'm that's the direction I'm trying to go I think you're doing a
6:26
good job because there's a lot of stuff when I've watched back and certainly the early days stuff I I wasn't working for
6:32
workshop at that time so it was really interesting hearing that side of it and then as you get closer to like you know things that are becomeing more my eara
6:38
when I was there I'm be fascinated to to to to see the insights of that as well but like you say you know you get a lot
6:44
of the information from stuff you've read and like white dwarf's are a great resource because youed do lots of
6:49
interviews in white dwarf didn't they so now I think it's great I think you Su
6:54
sorry just getting my tea in there um no it's you kind of it's really interesting
7:01
it's like we try and get the human in the in the room like you and chat them and you're doing something similar with
7:07
some of the greats from Workshop obviously remotely at the moment but there's a few snags that we we've been
7:13
trying to get old of and we not had yet so oh so well jealous of that yeah and I
7:19
start my invitation to interview I say don't go on the painting face no and here is why yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah no
7:26
I mean very lucky to get some that and I think because I am doing it remotely I'm just doing Zoom calls and just having a
7:31
conversation and it's a it's a far more traditionalish interview but I I'm
7:38
trying to not insert myself too much into that conversation so I I want to get their perspective and their
7:43
Recollections of it and sort of give them room to tell their story of it so it's for a very different purpose as
7:50
well I think it's trying to CU I there's I approach it with like a load of questions that I have and sometimes it's
7:56
like oh well I'll just do this one for me yeah yeah I've got I've got some questions cuz I'm curious about it and
8:03
then from that hopefully get to you know why did you do that why why did it develop in that way what was the sort of
8:09
impetus for that decision or or what have you um and some of those conversations I mean all of those conversations really have been super
8:15
interesting and really really good uh for me at least I've enjoyed them and that's also now like a primary source
8:22
that can go into my sort of documentary style videos cuz I can refer back to my
8:28
own conversation and sort of well here's what they said to me when we chatted um so that's been really nice to sort of
8:33
explore that side of things as well yeah it's interesting to say about like the people you talk to they all have different sort of memories of that era
8:40
CU I have the same thing I can be talking about stuff that I remember from like working at workshop and then we had like Tom hibb on here we talking about
8:46
stuff I was like oh yeah we did do that I don't remember that happen all being the case and then it suddenly like gets your your creative mind going in yeah I
8:53
remember oh then that was the reason why we did that or whatever um but yeah I've definitely spoken to a few buddies from workshop and they're like are you sure
8:58
you remembering that bit right I was like I don't know am I remind me what what what what do you remember so it's
9:04
quite interesting that you know people remember certainly if you're in a team and you have that blinkered sort of
9:10
focus on what you do and then someone works on another team and they have a blinkered focus on what they do and your experiences are very different that is
9:16
quite interesting actually yeah CU not I mean it's rare that someone is involved in every part of of the thing and
9:22
luckily you know I was able to talk to MK Wells who was the CEO and he has a sort of top down perspective on a period
9:27
of time for Games Workshop history and that was a great conversation or Alan Meritt who who was sort of you know
9:32
sort of fixer behind the scenes for a huge length of Games Workshop history but even they were not in the room for
9:38
everything making all of the creative decisions and doing all of that sort of stuff so you've got to sort of piece it together with a load of other stuff and
9:44
like you say white dwarf and other other sources like that there's so much information there especially older white
9:50
dwarves when they were just really happy to say we're working on this it's coming out soon and they just like commit
9:56
themselves to loads of stuff that never came out so amazing like our neam
10:03
campaign but yeah cuz it were just like obviously the design studio was this really exciting fee place where
10:08
everything's been created all the time and they were just sticking it straight into white dwarf saying oh these guys are working on this these guys are
10:14
working on that and some of it just disappeared yeah so there's lots of interesting stories there as well about
10:19
like what didn't make it um but some of that you know we spent some time developing this and then it didn't turn
10:26
into a game or a book or a comic or whatever on it own but some of it found its way into some other product and sort
10:32
of became something else is anything that they cuz I've not watched every single episode but is anything that like was mentioned you're like oh I wish that
10:39
was a thing now oh loads yeah yeah loads I mean I'm working at the moment on a video about uh Warhammer comic book that
10:46
was being put together and it's just it sounded really really cool you know they
10:52
got they had editors together writers artists it was really far along the line
10:57
so there's some art out there as well from that just never made it into a proper comic book and this is years
11:03
before we would then see you know Warhammer month like that yeah so a completely different project from that
11:10
and it was then basically canned during the the sort of change over the buyout
11:15
when the management bought Games Workshop and the company really started to change at that point in time so around the early
11:21
90s it went from the Brian anel Citadel Le Games Workshop that that he' done
11:27
since taking over from the uh original guys Steve Jackson Ian Livingston the new version of Games
11:34
Workshop that emerged in 91 it wasn't really interested in doing a lot of that kind of stuff it moved away from books
11:40
it moved away from these sort of comic projects obviously the record label that they were trying all these kind of fun like oh my God bolt thrower yeah it was
11:49
bolt thrower what was the other one there was a coup yeah cuz it was uh realm of chaos was the album right um oh
11:57
now it slipped my mind yeah SS nice them all of we see if it comes back to me later
12:03
on but yeah so they they a dck yeah um so they've been working on
12:08
all of these kind of like really creative outlets for let's just expand what Games Workshop does and expand the
12:14
worlds in all these different ways in some cases because Brian anel was just I'm well into that I'd like to explore
12:19
it I'd love for G as far as to do candles that have been
12:25
fun it'll never happen yeah what's nurgle going to smell like a
12:33
delight well you say this right and then now one of the surely one of the strongest like arms of games workshops
12:39
IP is black Library so they created this book line GW books they did 17 books
12:45
between 89 and 91 which is a huge amount of books to publish in such a short time and then they just decided Well actually
12:51
we're not going to do it we're going to we're going to let box tree do it instead and then that kind of died off and then it was another however many
12:57
years until you got black black library but they were doing stuff that would later become super successful but it
13:03
just wasn't the right time really that's very interesting so that changing business at that point in time it just
13:09
really it's an interesting story I think to try and unravel some of it I remember uh we had used to have like national
13:16
manager meetings all the managers come from wherever staff members look after the stores everything was on fire when
13:22
they weren't there it was great but we we'd all get in a room and they like talk and you have like people from the studios come in and talk about stuff and
13:28
I remember once um CU everyone ask the question every year we used to get customers asking like when's there going to be a 40K
13:34
movie when are we going to do like 40K films or this that and the other I remember a few of them saying we're never going to do that because we don't
13:39
trust people with our IP um and it would never happen it was like a firm sort of like Line in the Sand this is never
13:45
going to happen and then what like 10 years later they've got computer games cuz Sega doing Total War they've got
13:51
like all these like Joy toys and mcfar figures and we playing um space Hulk on
13:58
P one space final Liberation classic games those was Avatar of Kane or something like which is like a real time
14:04
strategy before like um I think it was because of dawn of War you know the trailer for Dawn of War that's what
14:10
kicked people's like creative juices for like oh we need to see a movie of this um I think that's what got people really
14:16
into the idea of like seeing films and stuff they made that movie didn't he it was awful they did yeah well I mean there's a couple of things that
14:21
obviously done on Sho string budgets but they' created like a jean stealer and an orc and like you know space did that one
14:29
where they were they did that one where they had real actors wearing Space Marine armor didn't they yeah I remember watching it at games day a year or two
14:36
after it came out yeah and they they put it on the big screens and we're just like come on watch Inquisitor and you can sort of see it and yeah it is now
14:43
looking back it's all on YouTube so you can go and watch it it's not great but at the time it was like wow
14:50
this is the stuff I'm imagining and now it's moving and talking and intera at the time it's all we had yeah and that
14:56
and even at the time it wasn't like you were like wow this is amazing this is as good as aliens or something but it was
15:01
still something that was quite enjoyable I I felt at least yeah it's interesting
15:06
because the was it the earnings report that came out recently for Workshop they were like oh like we haven't made quite
15:12
as much money as we thought we would because of like licensing and IP had reduced by like 10% or something like
15:19
that so like that is such a profitable part of the business now yeah um which is wild it's interesting how much that's
15:25
changed since no never and it's like no we're sorry guys we haven't made 100
15:32
million quck we we've only made 99 million uh because of Licensing it was
15:38
it was interesting because they did a couple like I say computer games beforehand cuz you had if you remember the fantasy one shadow of the horn dark
15:45
there was a 40K pretty much epic 40K one final Liberation I remember playing chaos gate when I was gate as well that
15:51
was the old XCOM engine they're like come to chaos join us I used to love
15:57
just exploding the cultists with one shot from our Bolter but yeah some of those did all right some didn't do so
16:02
well and I think it was just like a firm like line of the sound like no we're not we're not never doing it again cuz it costes I think people would take some of
16:09
that and then put their own tweaks on it which they didn't like and agree with because you know when you have an IP you're very precious over it so yeah um
16:16
but it's really nice to see that that's like chilled out a bit more yeah I think so I mean and and this is the kind of so
16:22
I'm quite interested as much as I love the worlds of Games Workshop and playing games in these worlds and telling
16:27
stories and reading stories in them I am also for some reason I just I'm interested in like the business of it
16:34
all and it's not because I think there's an interesting relationship between the the
16:39
sort of fantasy elements the the creative stuff and the business side of things as well that I think we sometimes
16:46
don't because obviously we don't see it so we just see what comes out the products that are released and the games
16:51
that come out and we can play and stuff the way that the business evolves and changes informs so much of that creative
16:59
stuff but in ways that we probably wouldn't expect and that's what I think has been the most interesting aspect of
17:05
sort of delving into it yeah yeah yeah what does anything spring to mind as an
17:10
example from like a conversation that you've had yeah well I mean so it's been described to me and I think this is a
17:16
really good I can't take credit for this as a as a metaphor for it but it makes
17:21
perfect sense so one of the designers was talking about how it's like Sudoku so there are restrictions in what
17:29
they can do because there's already some numbers in place so you don't just have free reign to sort of create anything
17:34
and those restrictions might be we can only produce this many models for that kit or it can only be this big or it can
17:41
you know can only use this much plastic because it's going to cost a certain amount or we've got so many pages to print so these kind of like real hard
17:49
business things then inform how the law is created to accommodate the product
17:55
that they then produce yeah oh wow so it's yeah yeah you it might feel like
18:01
there's a an opportunity to just whole cloth create anything you want which I guess in a sense is true and maybe was
18:07
truer at some point but you were always dealing with like what's the cost of lead so how many pieces can we put into
18:14
that kit or it doesn't come out of the mold if youve sculpt it in that particular way so we need to design it in a different way so like the slaughter
18:20
bases is probably a good example where Brian anel was like you can't have someone walking across the line of the
18:27
tab yeah cuz then it made it harder to come out of the mold so that's why you ended up with models that were all sort
18:32
of hunched over and sort of at a different angle so that's a like a mechanical decision uh well a design
18:39
decision made because of a mechanical necessity and I think that's so interesting that kind of stuff yeah yeah
18:45
that CU we sort of look at it and just go wow this you know all of these stories are amazing it's so creative and
18:51
and we get immersed in it and sort of love it but sometimes you can peek behind the curtain and kind of go oh but
18:57
actually there was just a yeah a business decision made that that informed it and for some people I think
19:03
that's probably like well I don't want to to pollute the fantasy with these
19:08
hard business metrics or whatever that's not interesting and yeah absolutely I can understand that for me there's an
19:14
interesting little Second Story that runs alongside the fiction yeah it's
19:20
where it's you just reminded me like taking like certain box sets for instance so like silver Tower Blackstone
19:26
Fortress C City there are set depth size um you take the liio
19:32
imperialis stff that's a bit deeper um and certainly books and box games were like you know measuring the boxes the
19:38
boxes are a certain set size certain height for like a certain cost of UPS um packaging boxes because if they went to
19:44
the next size it cost more so it's like you know trying to minimize cost so what can you fit into this size box set then
19:50
like you know print in how much does it cost realizing if you're going to do a black interior like kill team has a black interior that that's actual Inc so
19:57
you're paying for that so why not do like designs on the inside and make that inside become a piece of scenery as well
20:03
so you know it's all that stuff like that I just find really fascinating yeah yeah exactly and and it's cuz then the
20:09
then you get really creative decisions made to solve for that problem I think mean even down to like Warhammer fourth
20:16
edition so the first sort of big box starter for Warhammer fantasy that was
20:21
amazing you know that that brought me into the hobby I'm sure it brought many many people into the hobby just a fantastic starter set and you know the
20:29
the design there from I think it was from Tom Kirby who was like let's put everything in one box so that people can just buy one thing and start but then
20:37
that obviously there's a load of restrictions and well how how much stuff can we put in so they put like cardboard versions of like a catapult or a gri so
20:45
you get the feel of a bigger Army but without having to put the extra plastic in there and stuff like that but then
20:50
the that sort of story continues to evolve as they go from we'll put everything that you need in there with
20:55
all the cards and all the tokens and stuff to we actually cards become more and more complex because now we're an
21:00
international company so printing the cards again in different languages
21:05
becomes more costly and also some languages are longer like the words are
21:11
longer German requires more letters so printing the cards again means we're going to have to reformat everything and
21:16
maybe we can't use the same language and just translate it we'll need to do something different so there's a move
21:22
away from cards and that's why the magic system for Warhammer fantasy went from card-based in like fourth and fifth into
21:28
a dice based one a sixth edition so that's a huge mechanical change driven by the fact that the company became more
21:35
International yeah and so that that like line is I think is so interesting yeah war cry is a great example of that I got
21:42
it in I knew i' get walk cry in in the first hour i' got it in um only took you 24 minutes yes yeah so if you ever get
21:49
the uh I don't know if you ever played war cry sure um so you you get your fighter cards and the fighter cards are
21:54
just symbology there's just lots of symbols with with numbers on it numbers are Universal um whereas in the box or
22:02
all you're doing is get inside changing the book you're getting a different book a different language book which then
22:07
tells you what those symbols mean so the only thing you're really changing so the cards are the same the only difference is like when you get your ability cards
22:12
it's like a big wad because there's like all the different languages in there from like Japanese to Russian to
22:19
whatever European nation we're currently like what I say we I keep saying we uh
22:24
Supply to but um yes it it is like let's say the challenges um I always find
22:30
really interesting do you know why you get like a big piece of art inside your book in box games was it to stop the book being scratched from spru yeah it's
22:37
really interesting like you know just having that little piece you put down and then your spru go on top of it yeah just like a simple thing like that just
22:42
to protect most just like oh I got a cool piece of art I could put on the wall and then it's always sod's law that
22:48
the best side of the artwork has the barcod on it we talking about this when we opened
22:54
the um when we opened the Templar box didn't we that the the better of the two pieces of art was one of the big barers
22:59
in the middle of it amazing um so obviously Channel's doing really well
23:05
good good job you're on like 12,000 yeah we just went over 12K recently um The
23:10
Mark Wells interview Mark if you have never spoken to him never spoken to him he's a really lovely guy I know that he
23:17
was very obviously going in not I say corporate mind but he was talking about like how he managed the the time and you
23:24
know using some of the speaky wood because that's his field of expertise
23:30
absolutely but yeah I had so many good interactions with Mark it was just nice seeing him just getting the opportunity to chat and talk about his side of the
23:37
stuff because that's the thing I think yeah and yeah obviously he and that's the point is that he's coming from the
23:42
perspective of being a CEO making pure business decisions and this is a company
23:47
that's I mean it it's an unusual company right because it's it's creating widgets
23:53
and and like numbers like any business but those widgets and numbers are actually these like super creative
24:00
products like you know it's a game or Miniatures or stories or whatever so there's this unusual relationship I mean
24:07
I came from like a you might describe it as a a dry corporate world so I I worked
24:12
in a bank and like working on numbers that were just numbers so the product we
24:18
were making was just numbers and you're moving them around all the time games workshops doing that and it's got the
24:23
same kind of structure the same CEO the same HR all that sort of corporate structure but then the product that's coming out
24:29
of the bottom isn't just numbers it's like toys and and worlds fun yeah fun
24:36
basically yeah cuz no one puts a mythology on a on a on a Hoover do they
24:41
just release a new Hoover you don't have to go this Hoover was discovered by a bunch of Rogue Space Marines they had it
24:49
reproduced me Jeff that's what they should do now but you know because this is something
24:54
arban said didn't he which was really interesting and it was first time really thought about it in that way he said
25:00
we're all sitting here talking about how much we love the stories and we love the books and all the rest of it but what we're actually doing is saying how much
25:06
we love marketing of soy soldiers yeah and you know and it it but it isn't it's interesting you think it's it's
25:12
marketing that's just put it it just branches off into you know whole other
25:17
you know avenues that you know go I want to sell soy soldiers but also Pat's got a 4-Hour Drive ahead of him yeah and
25:24
he's being told that Toy Soldiers with lightning Two Soldiers with lightning balam and bat helmets are the coolest
25:31
ones yeah yeah I me I I I uh listen to Eisen horn book three whilst I painted
25:37
the spare room in my in my house you managed to get through the whole lot yeah oh fantastic yeah I think it was
25:43
like 10 hours or something like that how big's the spare room it was like a really dark blue
25:49
we're using a fine detail yeah yeah it's like double double zero um going going
25:55
around the skirting boards um yeah so and I was like you know I don't want to listen to music I can't watch a video
26:01
I'm going to listen to I'm going to listen to Black Library can I just slightly Sidetrack here did did Caris think because you do painting as a hobby
26:08
that means you're an expert at painting walls um did you get cuz I get that at home no no my um my dad uh like he was
26:16
like send me some updates Patrick um that's in my head that's like my dad voice um I can't wait to have kids
26:26
um um so I'll be like right well here's the room now here is and he was like oh
26:31
easier than Toy Soldiers yeah but like a lot more boring absolutely right yeah so then now in my head um I've just got
26:39
eisenhorn being like I was so so close to the line but have I already crossed
26:44
it am I a heretic or am I just a radical um and I always I always think like if I
26:50
listen to Eisen horn books I need to count how many times Dan Abnet writes Body
26:56
Glove he loves body body gloves yeah that was the first time I ever you know
27:02
what you call an all- incompass and suit Body Glove Body Glove that's it fantastic nice one and going from five
27:07
legs yeah going going from like five cane books back to Eisen horn um was
27:14
really fun because I think the can books I'm like oh these are a laugh and and I've got through loads of them like
27:20
really really quickly um cuz I think I did Eisen horn book one and two and I was like I need a bit of a break before
27:26
it's like eisenh horn questioning whether he's a a heretic or not cuz it was all like book two was doing that and
27:33
then I read the synopsis of book three and and you know the back page and it was like has he gone too far and I was
27:40
like well I've just had a book of that so I'm going to have a bit of a break and and Kane is like lol Jurgen smells
27:46
um and I dueled A Space Marine I killed it and and you know this that and the other and then all the detail that's in
27:52
eisenhorn like such especially book 3 is just not Jolly in the slightest at all
27:58
it is great and and it's just so funny going from like oh yeah this orc and it really smelled and then and then eisenh
28:04
horn is like yes I had this meal and he's like I had these vacuum packed meats and then it's never mentioned
28:11
again it's like watching the room um where they just have all these random details and then they never talk about
28:18
them again like when she's like I had the test results back it's definitely cancer okay we're not going to talk
28:23
about that um and I'm getting what's the room I don't even know the room oh you don't know the room it's the room is a sensational movie
28:32
okay um and you absolutely have to watch it it's from a guy called Tommy wio um I
28:38
don't know if that's the correct correct pronunciation um and it's essentially all based in the room okay um and it's
28:46
about a character that works at a bank that's that's like his character develop
28:52
I mean the room is very similar to my experience so yeah um and it's awful
28:58
it's it's it's amazing was it on Netflix or no I don't
29:03
know where you got it you can probably find it on YouTube or something like that but like there's so many like um
29:10
lines and quotes and offshoots of stories that they never come back to okay there's just like a random cutaway
29:17
clip where he goes into a shop and buys some flowers and the lady behind the counter goes like you're my favorite
29:22
customer like it's just never explains why and like it's it's a CO classic he
29:27
like going to see like Rocky Horror like if you go and see it in the cinema like don't go and watch it in the cinema because people take spoons and throw
29:34
them at the screen and and like it's just brilliant okay yeah yeah I mean it's brilliant in the in the sense of
29:41
it's not brilliant so don't go in expecting basically a man with the Tommy
29:46
woo person has a lot of had lot of unexplained money in the real world and
29:53
just decided there a not a vanity project he was just going to make his own film okay that he'd written and it's
29:59
just like just literally and it's no no one really knows where cuz he's got a really bizarre accent no one knows how
30:05
old he is no one knows where he's from no one knows where he got his money from and it's really really odd it's so weird
30:13
that there is a movie about the making about the making of the room it's it's I think it is the
30:21
definitive it's so bad it's good okay it's like watching it's like watching shark NATO like but but I think like
30:29
shark NATO knows what it is and plays into yeah whereas the room doesn't the
30:34
room the room might make the man making the room thinks he's making an Oscar winner yes yeah and and there's like
30:41
like really weird sex scenes in it and and it's anyway Mega srack that's well
30:46
you got you got talking about decorating and Banks and I don't know if anyone else does this right um if you've ever
30:53
decorated because you painted we normally War paper right maybe paint nowadays does anyone else just for fun
30:59
write weird scribblings on the wall yeah I did that when I painted cuz I even did a bank job wrote like like that like the
31:05
darbishire Lloyd's uh like like where all the security cameras were what time it opens
31:11
what time it closes where we think the vault is how many people we need to do the job they just coated it in wallpaper
31:16
so like 20 years so now someone's going to strip that the one I liked was someone the other day he said I don't think I'm planning on selling it but
31:22
I've done this just in case and someone I built a um I built an imperial night
31:28
and before they put the top plate on it they put a note inside of it that that you'd only find under these conditions
31:35
and he wrote on the note please don't take me apart and just use me for Bas for scenery on your base and then put it
31:42
inside they glue the top on she said I'm not planning on selling it but just in case the future something goes
31:48
right she thinks brilliant amazing it's amazing no I I didn't I didn't wallpaper
31:53
cuz I I yeah again my dad in my dad voice don't don't strip wallpaper just
31:59
paint over it okay um so I with the paint before I got the roller out wrote poo poo on the wall and then just we
32:06
just we have to get someone in to decorate because if we don't generally within about the first 3 to four hours
32:13
somebody will be calling a divorce lawyer we just can't work together we can't so we just have to go do you not
32:20
do separate rooms no we just go let's be skint for a month and get it decorated
32:26
to do it yeah like less stress involved definitely I can see why people do it and I've only had to paint three rooms
32:33
two in a bit and you know you're encouraging someone else's job that's why I try not to do DIY is
32:39
when my wife goes you're going to do that I go no I'm going to get toone in CU I'm not stealing another man's job as the Socialist that I
32:46
am says me shave my son's hair
32:51
at decorate that room now cuz I'm not a scab
32:59
to you Jordan I just like the idea that P you're going to be able to sort of refer back to stuff and talk about how
33:05
long it took you to paint your house but it's going to be the unit of measurement will be black Library novels oh oh yeah
33:11
yeah it's about you know 10 black Library novel job that yeah absolutely
33:17
imagine if you became a decorator and then people went how long would you take you to do be stairs I reckon I could get
33:23
a g ghost out of that soorry what I the CMAs is that three episodes or
33:30
four yeah yeah yeah say like every I'm going to have you know like people have
33:36
those moments where you're like oh I remember exactly where I was when I did this and and everything and and I'm
33:41
every time I walk into my spare room I'm just going to go Body Glove just right on the wall get it on
33:48
there get it on there so back to you sorry we Sidetrack we do that it's what
33:53
we're good at it's our it's our Famous Brand uh um so you've done you've got a
33:59
varied amount of content at the moment you got interviews you got you got book club as well haven't you yeah doing a
34:04
book club uh with Stu from miniature Realms St great yeah we met him at warlord when we met you at warlord
34:10
that's right yeah and uh we've just been reading each of those original GW books so those 17 books from like 89 onwards
34:18
as they were released so release release order one a month and then talking about them with the patreon group and then
34:24
talking about them in the in the book club that's on the channel and because I'd never read any of them so I've sort
34:29
of been quite LAX in the fiction side of my Warhammer hobby over the years so
34:35
getting to read it in the sort of context of okay so this was coming out at a time when nothing really existed or
34:40
not as much existed in terms of the sort of firm Warhammer fantasy battle law
34:46
obviously you had the uh first and well Third Edition of fantasy battle first
34:51
edition of fantasy roleplay but it was still really taking shape so reading it it's like okay it's not all set in stone
34:58
at this point people are just making random stuff open exploring parts of the warh world that you're never going to see again and sort of that context has
35:05
made it a really interesting experience I yeah IM I'm trying to sort of tease out you know same with 40K of course
35:11
there's some 40K books in there so we' not got to those yet but like the Ian Watson still famously you know a bit out
35:18
there kind of stories before 40K as a world has sort of Taken shape as what
35:24
we' recognize today so you've got a lot of interesting ideas and you know
35:29
interesting language and and all this sort of stuff in those books that it doesn't really resemble what is out
35:36
there now some of it's made it through but a lot of it's just gone was this in the original like 17 books yeah yeah
35:43
absolutely yeah so that's when it started and then it sort of carried on post GW books and then they've been reprinted some of them and they've
35:49
updated some of them so the Inquisition War Trilogy I think it's called now so like some of that is still around but
35:56
some of it was tweaked and changed and they removed squats from it because squats were gone but now squats are back
36:02
so they' put the squats back in
36:09
V so but like and that's the thing I'm probably sound like I've just like got this super dry version of The Hobby
36:16
where I'm like all about the business side of things but that is a great example of just the creative decision
36:22
has been made to like remove squats because they don't exist anymore so now we've changed the fabric of a
36:28
story to reflect that CU we don't want people to think I can go and buy a squat cuz you can't and now squats have come
36:35
back they've reversed that or you know a little bit before then but so these the sort of story and law and fiction
36:41
changes are happening because of what's being sold and how it's being sold see I think that's sad with the squats because
36:48
when they got rid of them they gave although May albeit mildly a flippant um
36:54
reason didn't they they went their Planet got it yeah a high Fleet ran through it was it bouth y all
37:03
right our quiz earlier what what we're going to do is we're going to release the quiz after
37:09
this ref first to our quiz later but they gave her an excuse so to
37:15
me if they go yeah there was a race called squats and they're gone you know I mean they talk about the old ones the
37:21
old ones have been mentioned but you've never been able to buy them well you haven't been able to buy a model of one pretty much ever in a day so I don't
37:28
mind I think people can go and they're not here anymore I think being able to mention Squat and yeah I think it's fine
37:35
but I think it's because the fact it was never really written in stone in anything to say squats Planet got at
37:43
which I think is b a shame I also thought it was quite an interesting thing to do as well where you get like all these fantasy tropes because you
37:48
know you got tolken based stuff you yeah cool it's doing well we've got like a fantasy system it's all like you know
37:54
based off like as you disc from your Channel role play it's like let's make war games out of role play stuff and get larger
38:01
armies and just make big battles and you just like let's just put those races in space so you know beard biker dwarfs I'm
38:08
all about that and I was a bit sad when they went cuz I I quite like the squats is the the the sty and they're kind of a bit like that again but not quite the
38:15
same St no not not not as they don't lean into the biker any no and I kind of miss that especially like like the big
38:20
Trikes and stuff but I mean I kind of get you know I get why is makes sense
38:25
got it would be nice to see because now Squat and votan aren't the same thing
38:31
and votan are technologically leaning towards looking more advanced in the
38:37
squats well obviously now that they've got the ashwa it would be cool if they did the squats a little bit more
38:43
traditional motorbike with regard because everything gets vehicles of some description doesn't it so I think it'd
38:48
be nice if they sort of lean back into the original through necr sure you can do it with the quads from the orlocks
38:55
and stuff yeah so it seems that like background in sort of the law kind of
39:00
thing is your your focus of a hobby I suppose because you were saying you're not into painting which is fine um which
39:07
I'm going to come to in a minute or two actually um is it because I'm working in retail we used to get people that only
39:14
interested in the art books there's people only interested in playing the games there's only people that were interested in playing there was a guy
39:19
called Charles wi used to come in every weekend every weekday and he would just literally talk to me about Eisen horn
39:25
and uh G ghost and like whatever horror series he books he was not interested in the games he was not interested in painting but he loved the law um it's
39:32
really nice to see that kind of dynamic spread and obviously you're really focused on that kind of side of it as well which is which is great but what
39:39
made you want to do an army how how did that seem is it's not your strength if you like sure yeah yeah so I decided
39:47
earlier this year that I was going to do like a big warmer fantasy Army project and I chose a Marian BG Army and yeah
39:56
I'm not entirely sure why I came to this sort of decision to do it as like a big project but I think because it had been
40:02
a long time since I'd actually put together a proper Army so I've got a TOA Army for 40K I've got a scaven army for
40:09
Fantasy age of Sigma and I've had them for years and I've sort of nibbled around the edges and bought bits and
40:14
Bobs here and there good reference there for scaping as well nibbled around the edges like it
40:19
nice but yeah it been a while since I'd sort of done a brand new Army from scratch and I I was really inspired by a
40:25
couple of things I was coming across just in my sort of research and stuff so one of the early regiments of renown for
40:31
Warhammer fantasy was u b uh gargoyles so this is a sort of pre at very early
40:40
Warhammer history sorcerer in marienburg who has summoned a load of demonic gargoyles and
40:47
they sort of run a mock cause all kinds of problems it takes a week to get rid of them and then the rest of the sort of
40:53
Council of the leaders of Marian Berg decide we got to get rid of this this B Von mlin guy cuz he's ridiculous like
41:00
summoning summoning gargoyles everywhere uh so so they hanged him and got rid of
41:05
him but the Wizards of marienburg then learned how he summoned the Gargoyles
41:10
and then used them to defend the city okay and that's the first ever mention of Marburg in Warhammer law yeah and
41:17
this obviously goes on to become this major part of setting or one of many obviously but a port city big part of
41:24
near the Empire and sort of stuff into the Empire it's not actually of the Empire now but that was just a really
41:30
that moment was just like this is a really cool little story that you know it's only like a paragraph long that
41:37
probably I think it was Rick Priestley had written yeah just because they had a lot of gargoyles and they were like
41:42
what's the story for these guys and he named drops this city uh that had come from Richard halwell who had invented it
41:48
and named it after his uh girlfriend his then girlfriend so it was named after Marian Marian Berg and that just sort of
41:56
inspire spired this like oh well that's cool this just a cool like this something that would go on to become
42:01
this Amor like amazing major part of the setting started from just a one name
42:07
drop a tiny little story so that kind of just got me thinking about marienburg and then I was doing some other stuff and then I did a a sort of making of
42:14
Marburg and looked at how the marienburg city came to be more important in the
42:20
law what supplements were done for Fantasy roleplay and that sort of stuff it just kind of snowballed from there
42:26
really inspired by this city and the law of this city and then I was like oh I guess I'll do an army
42:32
then but I thought it would be a fun project to document me build buying and
42:39
collecting the Army which is probably my strength and then telling a story with
42:46
it so I've sort of been writing this fiction that goes alongside the Army as well giving everyone names and sort of
42:51
coming up with all that sort of stuff and then painting it as well and I was hoping it would make me paint it more
42:58
and make me paint it faster U cuz I'm not in the habit and it's not a natural thing for me to sort
43:04
of get the paints out and do it it's it's worked a little bit it's slow going and I've been making slow progress I've
43:10
been sort of trying to commit myself to sort of setting out my Paints in the in the evening so that the next morning
43:16
I've got to do an hour of painting and I don't have to set everything up and that so so I'm making some progress but it's
43:21
still pretty slow going yeah what made you go for coo arms so well this is
43:26
yeah sorry you can have that back by the way that's yours that your part you don't want to keep it I take it
43:33
it's a good paint but it took about seven coats right your arm is going to take a while I'm just going to put that
43:39
out you k schem i yeah I might not convit so this is because so this is deadly nightshade which is so it's a
43:46
reformulation by Cod arms of like an original or an old Citadel color and I
43:51
just loved this so I painted everything this color when I when it was still around and yeah Dark Elves and scaven
43:58
and Orcs or whatever everybody had deadly nightshade on them somewhere and I was like well
44:04
that if I'm going to go retro let's at least sort of get something that has a meaning for me yeah and I thought well
44:10
this is you know it's reformulation of it it must be good it must be the thing right I think what they've done is they've gone with the same formulation
44:18
from the old I found this really interesting and this is why I think like it would be a good test to try different
44:24
paints cuz that that is definitely class Citadel paint it's by HMG who made the
44:30
original so this will be the actual like you know the direct line between the old dead and so that's great in terms of the
44:37
color cuz I think it's it's a lovely like dark blue sort of almost purple kind of AKA pushi and blue will be the
44:44
fine after seven Co I was like I'm just going to try this killer it's the same onek Wonder uh so if you do struggle
44:52
there are there are alternatives so when I do struggle yeah okay it was it was interesting playing with it and it's
44:57
given me some thoughts about certain videos down the line that I'd like to try but um but it was nice trying but I
45:03
there's nothing to say that coat D's paints are awful it just that that was taking ages to mix and it it coverage
45:08
wasn't what I and I think I got spoiled with newer paints sure new formulation so it was just fascinating I'm taking
45:14
your word sorry fascinating somebody um someone messaged me on Instagram recently were like oh you didn't say
45:20
fascinating at all in the most recent chat are you aware of it now and I was like yeah probably yeah
45:26
even if it's subconsciously yeah yeah oh like back in the day used to be my back
45:31
in the day yeah but yeah no so it's it's interesting watching you do that and the buildup to it and obviously there'll be
45:37
some hopefully some painting at some point but you got stew to talk about colors and came on and helped me sort of
45:43
work cuz I I didn't even know where to start and like how do you build a paint scheme in your head to know what you
45:48
want to cuz I I know for sure cuz I don't have the skill to actually paint
45:53
something realistically so you know all the leather pouches that would be a a
45:58
brown color or the metals or you know like doing things to represent what they're supposed to look like in real
46:04
life if they were real I don't think I can do that so I can't do that so don't worry about it well but there's a sort
46:10
of Illusion of reality to like it looks like it would make sense whereas I quite like and and where I've had I think my
46:17
most success is kind of doing a little bit of an abstraction with the paint so it's it's not like I'm not doing details
46:24
and it's kind of just almost like a monotone or sort of a Duo Chrome or whatever the ter would be of like a
46:30
couple of colors so it kind of has a hopefully a striking look on the table when you've got an entire Army out but
46:36
if you look at an individual model it's a bit probably a bit boring that's Army painting there can I can I just point out I had this whole problem over the
46:43
last week way back uh in April when we went to salute I bought cuz my um my
46:50
cousin-in-law is a massive my cousin-in-law is a massive Master Universe fan and at the shows they were
46:56
doing a limited edition Battle cat and He-Man on a base and he's not riding on
47:02
the cat he's just stood next to it and and I thought to myself I'll paint that
47:07
for grahe for Christmas so I've had since April and obviously no Christmas around the corner I went Panic stations
47:13
thought oh got to do this otherwise it'll just if I don't give him it this Christmas it'll just live in a box and it'll never see the light to day and in
47:20
me brain I went do you know what I'm going to do I'm gonna paint this as perir of the cartoon I won't really
47:26
highlight it I'll just go for the blocks of color cuz if you I even went back and looked at frames of He-Man and you think
47:33
they don't really highlight in cartoon like that they just put the blocks of coloring and I thought I'll do that and
47:39
then you know then when you looked at the miniature you realized you realize you can't because the miniature is too detailed that if
47:46
you tried to just do it in blocks of color it would look like you hadn't actually painted it proper it it was
47:53
weird cuz I just have my brain I'm just going to go go that color skin no highlight that color hair that color
47:59
loin cloth and then when I got the blumber thing out and started painting G he just can't the details and it's sort
48:05
of and someone I I showed it to someone who went looks more aggressive than He-Man
48:10
yeah and I went that's because he looked detailed do you know me because he had more of a grit and and and his muscles
48:16
were looked more humanlike as opposed to just drawn line very into and I thought isn't it weird you you have an idea of
48:23
how you think reality veres this and then they just realize that the model sometimes completely dictates what you
48:29
can and can't get away with I think it's because it's 3D and yes's 2D if I bet you if you paint in those block colors
48:35
right and get like on a monitor yeah put like a bit of a backdrop of a He-man cartoon not not with the characters you
48:41
know sometimes Castle something in the background got cringer battle cat and hean took a photo it looked fine cuz
48:49
it's a two you've now made a 3D thing 2D again yeah it looks like a cartoon but
48:54
really great but because you're looking at as a 3D thing and that's how your body works and your mind works and whatever it looks weird and it was also
49:01
things I'd never really thought about is that the The Battle Cats got one PA like that like it's trying to swipe or
49:07
something and I actually thought I have no idea what color the pads are on the inside of the cats yeah or cuz in the
49:14
cartoon you don't really see it and I was trying to look for a frame and I'm sitting there and I go oh it's just going to have to be some sort of pink
49:20
cuz I thought I don't know you know what I mean and he realized that again that 3D image forces you to paint beyond what
49:27
you want you either what you you know your skill set or what you prepared to do and it it forced me into having to
49:33
paint this more than I wanted the most important question Jeff did you make sure he-man's skin was the correct color of tea no I had to paint him more I
49:41
wanted to I wanted to but the problem being is again I I put that shade in and
49:47
then it went it looks like I've just base coed him you know and then I had to wake him up so he was highlights on the on the
49:55
and and on the abdominal muscles but I was really desperately just wanted to to do that but because you know and that's
50:02
and that's a thing so you're talking about of detail and whether you make something look realistic or don't it's
50:07
it's a really tough one to to figure out yeah I'm not great at it I did some augins recently for necromunda and I
50:14
used the deadly nightshade to do their skin so I I just did a zenial highlight and then I did the deadly nightshade skin and then I wrote Into the sort of
50:21
story for them that they were they worked on the outside of the hive high altitude like sort of low orbit around
50:27
the planet they were just a construction crew and they'd been modified genetically modified so that they could survive in this like atmosphere or lack
50:34
of atmosphere and that's why they've got this really dark sort of blue almost like dark Health kind of looking skin um
50:41
or Dr I guess it would be in D and D stuff so that that's how I like to do is just total abstraction simplest possible
50:49
way of painting and then explain it put it into the story yeah that's good so
50:55
you were um building your army I forget your character's name ponad Trudeau
51:00
ponad Trudeau so it's a good name it is a good name it's struggling so you were showing like there was I really like
51:05
this you was showing all the different units you're looking at building and then you showed some things like I want to make a general but I don't want to do and I was like oh I'd love to Kit bash
51:11
you a general and I did some kit bashing showed you some photos and like you you had this idea of a musketeer I still
51:17
don't know if I've achieved it so we'll find out but I was like I've got two models here there's the test model which I painted so you can be a hero and then
51:23
there's the Musketeer esque but he's on for I don't have him on Horseback so he's he's he's walking with his troops
51:30
I'm afraid I wanted to take some photos if like a white Scar's Captain yes like just just like a white Scar's Captain
51:36
all his men have got horses except this guy so I have pansar trudo and some of
51:42
random guy so they are I went a bit over the top with the feathers I made him feel a bit of a peacock this is my
51:48
wife's jewelry box so but she does need it so you can keep it uh all the bubble wrap in the world um so there is ponar
51:54
Trudeau and and Trad Pudo his second command don't know what you call him oh
52:01
wow but yeah cuz you wanted to do it and you gave me a good brief which is like I've got some images like Musketeers but
52:06
clean shaving uh a bit of a jewelist um God that was hard to do
52:13
that normally see is amazing with Empire you have like really puff ruffled
52:18
clothing yeah and I end up using the C as of Sigma one of the C of Sigma
52:23
figures um to do whereas when I originally did the the one that which will come up on screen
52:29
the original one he had a big Zander sort of Blade I think it might even be a rune Fang that he's got there um but
52:36
there's a really good helmet from the pistoliers or free pistoliers which is like a big sort of hat with like a floppy hat with loads of feathers on it
52:43
uh but ponad I went with some greens in there cuz the problem with Marburg is they have to be blue yellow and red
52:49
that's that's their color scheme and is there any symbology other than a mermaid I could not find any other like
52:55
something that was like Marburg like a certain style or design it was like there's some crowns and some Cross Keys but that seemed to be quite yeah I mean
53:01
the mermaid the sort of the the crest of Maran Burger I think she's carrying like a bag of coins or something cuz it's all
53:07
like Traders as much as I love the project I wasn't
53:13
pain one absolute pair of dandies they are these are amazing these are amazing so much I would not be offended if it's
53:19
not you hero you just use Captain but yeah that was Captain test model the first one and Captain test
53:26
Captain test model that could be his name Captain test model but yeah thank you welcome there's a lid there's a lid
53:32
so yeah it was like a bit of fun for me CU I I watched the video I was like yeah what what would you use as a captain and
53:39
like kit bashing sometimes is just a bit of fun but trying to get the uh yeah I I don't know what to say now this is
53:45
lovely what a Christmas present this is Merry Christmas Merry Christmas P Trudeau I'll forget his name tomorrow I
53:52
kep going is it poniard no that's a dagger yeah I mean so and and cuz what I
53:57
wanted to do for the Army in in my collection was cuz I wanted to sort of tie into the work I've been doing on the channel so I I've been looking for
54:04
Miniatures from all of Citadel history so it has to be a Games Workshop released miniature so Citadel Marauder
54:11
any of that sort of stuff but even if they've sort of redone lines because they used to do Ral PA mines and stuff
54:17
like that in the early days so I wanted the Army on the tabletop to kind of it's
54:22
a bit grandiose but to represent like the entire history of City as well and have sort of a miniature from different
54:27
eras in different units and stuff so even there's some necromunda guys in there as well some 40K stuff I'm trying
54:33
to get in there a of sigar I've got Griff Hound because you and actually you
54:38
found an amazing thing for me I watched one of your streams uh when you were talking about the uh uniforms heraldry
54:45
of the Empire yeah I'd been looking to see if there was any evidence of Griff Hounds in Warhammer fantasy yeah and
54:52
there is there's one in there yeah there's the captain of the company of Honor isn't it it's fantastic I because i' I've got the book and I love that
54:58
that whole series is fantastic I've not clocked it and I so cuz I was trying to again I was sort of explaining I was
55:04
like it's from the Imperial Zoo so it's an exotic animal this Griff Hound cuz I love that I think one of the coolest
55:09
things in h Sigma I just good good boys the annoying thing about that is I because I made that regiment for um the
55:15
eighth edition Empire book um so I made the company of honor and I did the captain I can't remember his name now
55:21
but the only thing you had I can't remember which kit it's off now but there like little Griffin but it's got Wings whereas this thing I don't think
55:28
has wings no um so I kind of put that behind his base to try and like match it in and this any of I've not based them I
55:34
also put them on smaller Bas I didn't know if you want them on larger bases take them off the base and stuff but I thought I won't base them because you
55:39
obviously have your your own style of basin and whatever probably be goblin Green I don't know but but yeah those
55:44
books are really good for like re the heraldry books I just wish they did more wish they done more of those cuz they're
55:50
so good they're really really good s very well yeah and yeah absolutely game
55:55
but yeah there's there's ponad uh we have a selection of questions we CH we always check it out when we have a guest
56:01
on I just ask a question oh yes yeah well I've got to find this anyway what have you not covered yet what is have
56:06
you got an Avenue you haven't gone down yet that you you you're really circling thinking about doing sure yeah well I
56:12
mean and and so I'm also conscious that it probably sounds like I'm just this Mega GW Fanboy I think every decision
56:19
they've ever made is the best one ever and that's not the case I think they've you know made some interesting choices and things of yeah absolutely and if if
56:26
someone does feel that way that's fine as well massive Star Wars fan but there's a big there's big chunks at if you gave me a rubber eraser I could go
56:32
in and sort out so no I don't think nothing's Beyond reproach absolutely
56:38
exactly so I think there's some some stuff I want to explore in that you know like where were decisions or what paths were not taken that I wish maybe had
56:45
been so I think the storm of chaos uh sixth edition Warhammer fantasy battle
56:51
Global event they did basically walks the world to the brink of the end times
56:57
or what would become the end times but it changed the status quo of the Warhammer fantasy world and then in
57:02
seventh edition and then definitely an eighth edition it's just rolled back so they just got rid of it and sort of and then obviously did the end times which
57:09
similar events take place but they do end the world so I want to explore that like path not taken so what would the
57:15
Warhammer fantasy world have been if they'd continue down the storm of chaos route so they did like Warhammer fantasy
57:21
roleplay second edition which was set in that version of the Warhammer world but then the next Edition that's all gone
57:28
and stuff so I want to explore that and then obviously I've not delve too deeply
57:33
into the 41st Millennium really I've talked about space Hulk and I've looked at some of that sort of stuff I think in
57:39
the same way that I've gone through the different additions of Warhammer fantasy and like what were the what were the
57:45
factors that led to the creation of this and how and why I would love to do that for at least some of 40K yeah um that
57:54
feels like like it's going to be a really big job uh you know cuz there's so much change in 40K as well and so
58:01
many additions now as well so I don't think that would cover everything but I I would like to explore you know how do
58:07
we get from rad Trader and the world that was 40K then to you know where we
58:14
are with 10th edition and and all that sort of stuff cuz just the scene when stuff starts to
58:20
sort of get set in stone is an interesting kind of Journey in and of itself you know cuz n none of this stuff
58:27
was early on everything was up for grabs and it was all changing all the time and not everything but lots of stuff would
58:33
change and then at some point it was like no actually this is this is the for
58:38
a lot of it a lot of in 40K at the early days it was it was current world
58:43
political satire wasn't it and then obviously you know as with anything in the current world it it shifts around a
58:49
little bit and then they started to go oh no we'll leave that Al we we'll leave that alone or will take that one bit of
58:56
satire and now that's steady as a as as a building block for stories and it'll
59:01
be yeah so I think yeah I think that's a good shout actually man I think it will I'm hoping it'll be an interesting
59:07
Series yeah if and when but yeah who's the next guest you'd like to get on that you've not had on yet um well I mean
59:14
I've got some some good uh guests lined up so I'm not sure when this is going to go out you don't have to sh well I mean
59:20
so I've spoken to Rick Priestley which is yeah very exciting yeah was really good um and there's there's a few people
59:28
who were involved in the Warhammer fantasy side of things and how that evolved the Warhammer World um I would
59:35
love to speak to some of the artists who helped to sort of Define the the look and feel of early Games Workshop stuff
59:42
as well who's your favorite artist who's your favorite sculptor then so I you are
59:48
obviously unlike me I have like a three or four that I like you because your your knowledge and your interest of goes
59:54
so far back to the80s who yeah I mean I I think cuz I love the scaven so I just
1:00:01
they're they're my like true love in in war as much as as I'm loving marienburg
1:00:07
and the Empire at the moment scaven just these little like creepy stinky scumbag
1:00:13
rat guys they're they're just fun they're just great fun very unique as well to workshops so iconically Workshop
1:00:19
as well so yeah I I think jez Goodwin is probably probably I mean changes of
1:00:25
course you know you look at some new miniature or or you'll come across something be like oh this is my favorite now but generally speaking it probably
1:00:31
is jez Goodwin yeah because he's just done so much amazing stuff he's done a lot is he busy busy man uh cool oh about
1:00:38
you'd like to get him on the channel at some point oh I would love to but yeah know he he obviously all these people were just sitting on waiting to retire
1:00:44
yeah yeah come on need got the painting face and Jordan sorcery I need to retire hurry up imagine that's how it goes I I know
1:00:52
it doesn't I'm joking ali uh got some questions for you sure
1:00:59
uh there's a handful uh so hopefully my phone won't die halfway through it um
1:01:04
Matt render he's sent us some stuff as well he does a lot of U they're over there I'll grab them in a minute to um
1:01:11
Matt render has something called battle try where he gets modern day uh soldiers but puts Stormtrooper or Clone Trooper
1:01:17
helmets on them with all the Tactical rigs so there's a box and there should be a carbo tube it was all on here but it's been all the carbo tubes over there
1:01:23
I'll grab it in a minute too just chck it over I'll have a look in a minute be fine nice nice throw we we we'll end
1:01:29
with that um Matt render thank you Matt uh love his interviews would love to
1:01:34
know how he got into gaming keep up the great work on the channel as well how did you get into gaming well thank you
1:01:40
mat um yeah I mean it's it's I think it was probably Warhammer Quest was the sort of
1:01:48
when I became a real Games Workshop head if you like yeah but like so my my my
1:01:54
older brothers had hero Quest and they had space Crusade and I loved those games I would like to set them they
1:02:01
didn't actually like playing them so I sort of inherited them because they didn't use them at all but no one would
1:02:06
ever play with me I was too young and didn't really understand it so I just like to set up the boards and especially
1:02:13
heroquest cuz you had all of the furniture and stuff so I would just make these little Dungeons and kind of just
1:02:18
play around and and that sort of inspired the love of I think fantasy for
1:02:23
me and that that sort of yeah I was really in love with that kind of game
1:02:29
didn't really understand how to play it until my mom took me into a Games Workshop before Secondary School in the
1:02:36
summer and they were doing a demo game of Warhammer Quest and I just fell in love with it just incredible cuz it was
1:02:43
that game that I would set up on the kitchen floor on my own but now I was playing it with people and telling this
1:02:49
fun story and going through the dungeon I played uh I I was the elf and I fell
1:02:57
down a pit trap and you needed the rope in order to get the dwarf had to use the rope to get you back out but he'd
1:03:02
already used the Rope earlier on so like halfway through the dungeon in this demo game I was just left to languish at the
1:03:08
bottom of the pit and they all went off and completed the dungeon and got all the gold and the loot and I'm just like
1:03:14
help but even despite that it was just like yeah this is great I cannot wait to play again yeah so I would say his quest
1:03:20
is what got me into the Hobby and then fantasy battle from that and eventually I moved over to 40K and sort of got
1:03:27
really into 40K for a time and then I came back over to waram fancy but yeah I
1:03:33
mean that's the Games Workshop side of it I've always played you know since I could board games and then role playing
1:03:38
games and stuff like that as well um because it's just great I love telling stories basically so I don't play very
1:03:44
seriously I'm not very good with the rules when we actually play yeah um so it's more about like the
1:03:51
scenario I was going to say yeah that that sums up my experience yeah yeah one my quest is one of those
1:03:56
games is like the one that got away cuz I the time we' got like things like necam and stuff and affording another
1:04:03
game that we couldn't afford but I really like that one the most but never got around to getting it by the time I was able to buy it well out of
1:04:08
production so one day one day uh Andrew is asking there's two questions uh
1:04:15
firstly love the Jordan sorcery Channel love the Deep dives into more obscure parts of gw's History Two questions what
1:04:20
inspired you to start the channel we know this uh and part two which is what
1:04:25
what my fantasy about a la would you want to see expanded in the old
1:04:31
world yeah it's a good question Andre yeah thank you I think so I I would like to you
1:04:38
know I'm actually excited about the Old World the game because it is going into
1:04:44
a period of history that doesn't really have a lot of like definitive events
1:04:49
Magnus the pi era yeah so it's going to be before uh it's going to before the Great
1:04:54
War against chaos and it's going to take a look at like I think it's that 25 year
1:05:00
period before it so we kind of there's a lot of scope where you've got the three Emperors and the wars of succession that
1:05:07
are happening within the Empire and and there's no major events in the timeline I think that that so they can sort of
1:05:14
play around with it and I think that that's a good way to go so you can insert loads of fun stuff and as long as
1:05:21
the sort of continuity then snap you know you yeah you diver into all of this new law and stuff an invasion by the
1:05:27
tomb Kings or whatever it is and then come back to whatever the status quo was just before yeah I think that's fun so I
1:05:34
think that that that will be quite nice to get some more of that the only thing that just occur to me is there's a lot
1:05:40
of Empire kits that will probably come back um that all have KF on them oh yeah
1:05:45
there'll be I mean there's going to have to be a load of fuing on that kind of sure so which is like K friend but at the time it's Magnus not K friends
1:05:52
Magnus Magnus he's not just called Magnus the PES he's got another full name surely but wonder what they'll do
1:05:58
like regnal name yeah I wonder what they'll do with Rangers like um that are
1:06:03
now completely designed around uh age of Sigma now but will will they just rebase
1:06:10
them like for example what I'm getting at is lizard men yeah yeah it be quite interesting to see what they'll do with them will they just go you just use all
1:06:17
the new range and you just put them on Square bases or will they bring out a a lizard man box that will have old lizard
1:06:24
men in it and it'd be interesting to see how they approach that you think surely you've now got enough founding to just
1:06:29
be able to almost make a lizard man to make a lizard man old Hammer Army out of
1:06:36
age of sigar so' be interesting to see what they do with them races certainly at the time they were designed to rank up whereas now there more like on
1:06:43
circular basis so dramtic exactly interesting my assumption there is that that's like with cities of sigar and
1:06:50
that new Range yeah to make it really age of sigari yeah so then that frees up
1:06:56
the Empire stuff that was in cities to now Empire a bit like a bit like Horus harine 40K is the Marines are kept
1:07:03
distinctly different sizes and the vehicles trying to now make it as much as possible that the vehicles don't
1:07:08
cross over and so on and so forth yeah so maybe but it' be a bit weird if they then went back to Old not there was
1:07:14
anything wrong with them but really old like lizard men and they've got these really beautiful the Lizardman range freeer
1:07:20
sigar even though it's not my bag is really good it's insanely good but I think that's why they've kind of left
1:07:26
them out I mean even the scaven who I think are like quintessentially Warhammer fantasy have been left out of
1:07:33
the old world's sort of setup for now yeah for now but my suspicion for that
1:07:39
and same vampire counts is because they've got new really nice age of Sigma
1:07:44
ranges well not the scaven so much but they are they're inherently age of sigar now so they're kind of like well we'll
1:07:51
keep them over here for now until we redo those ranges and make the sigmari versions yeah be interesting yeah might
1:07:56
maybe in 5 years time or something well I suppose it I suppose to some degree a lot of it is going to be we've just got to wait and see whether Tak off as yeah
1:08:03
yeah it might be a damp squib they say Alex Swanberg Swanberg sounds like a
1:08:09
place in the Empire uh if you ever been put in charge of the rule set for old world what would you have kept from older additions and what would you have
1:08:15
jettisoned probably have one of each jettison one keep one
1:08:22
um that's a that's question I'm quite liking what the the sort of rules that are being dripped fed out for the old
1:08:30
world so far I quite like I think they've been quite a good balance between a sort of six sth Edition with some refinements and changes
1:08:38
um what would I keep and drop uh so I I quite
1:08:46
like rank bonuses I'm yeah I'm a big fan of that so I and this is where so I
1:08:53
quite like eighth edition of Warhammer fantasy there's a lot you know there's plenty of flaws with it and there's
1:08:58
plenty of it's a particular version of the game but I do quite like the big units I think they look impressive and I
1:09:03
think they kind of have a good presence on the table cuz hord wasn't yet to have a facing of 10 didn't you and then as
1:09:10
soon as you have a fa in of 10 and then you go like 70 ranks that becomes a hoorde up to four ranks you still get your rank bies and I I like that and
1:09:17
people like oh it's mechanic to sell more stuff but I was like but it looked cool yeah and it and it to to you know
1:09:23
probably was to sell more stuff but yeah it does have a real presence so I I
1:09:29
quite like the big units and the blocks and that that has a real Warhammer fantasy vibe to me which is probably why
1:09:36
warmer at a smaller scale is is actually a better way of playing Warhammer because you can have the big massive
1:09:42
armies but so I I you know I want to keep that kind of stuff and and make sure that you can still get those
1:09:48
benefits from having M ranks and and you know that sort of that sort of vibe I don't know what I would just
1:09:54
I know I would what would you Jefferson the old annoying like when you used to do like the wheels and stuff like that
1:10:00
they were so tedious I had a a friend in retail and you you'd get the the unit
1:10:05
like this and you'd move it and like no no and I pull it back a bit Yeah and then like no no no no pull it back a bit
1:10:11
I'm like I forgot to just move the bloody unit just move just charge just no no because it depends where I'm going to go and what angle I'm exposing this
1:10:18
like my God this is not snooker if you go back if you go back to Second Edition 40 okay it was like that
1:10:24
moving tanks was really was ridiculous you side side and rear I even like like
1:10:30
well not seventh I suppose seventh still had it to a certain degree um but that was cool you know shooting the flank or
1:10:35
the rear would have different effects on the tank but sitting there for ages like working how your unit's going to move and wheel it was funny that's why I
1:10:43
decided I couldn't I once went round to a friend's house he was saying we're
1:10:48
meant to be playing four player war hammer fantasy battle someone can't make it I was on leave from the the Army do
1:10:54
you want to come around and I went yes went round and hated it and hated it cuz
1:11:00
all of that was not of my bag and then um and then I ended up in uh Games
1:11:06
Workshop shop with my friend cuz he was he was a big collector of both well he was a big collector of Warhammer fantasy
1:11:11
battle and when we were in there they had a demo game for Third Edition 40K
1:11:17
and I was still a seven Soldier and he went and I went what's that and he went because I've all all I've seen is you
1:11:23
know his Empire versus you know whatever he went oh that's the other one that's the Sci-Fi one and I was like why aren't
1:11:30
they on them tree things he went oh you don't move them like that cuz my my mate was an ex7 Soldier as well he went know
1:11:35
he says they move more like we move and I was like can I have a can someone come over and demo this and then immediately
1:11:42
went oh yeah I like that that's my you know I understand that you know I suppose it's a bit of a it's almost like
1:11:47
a naval war game isn't it with like turn in I i' I know what I would what I don't
1:11:54
like and it's CU it's an abstraction but it's when it like a front rank gets killed and then no one else in the unit
1:12:00
can attack because you're like oh everyone died in the in your charge or whatever and it I understand why that
1:12:07
decision has been made but I like what the guys in the second rank are just like standing there in front of them and
1:12:14
they're just like okay I'll wait until next turn before I it's a swirling melee isn't it yeah exactly so I I I prefer
1:12:19
the idea that you know once you're engaged you're all kind of just in in this sort of malange combat but am I
1:12:26
right thinking that especially you got Spears in your second rank you go I think you can with yeah you can can yeah
1:12:32
but even with swords I think you know that they don't stay as the regular blocks once they get into in my head
1:12:39
yeah you know they reform after doing the the m and then they Total War is a great example of how that works isn't it
1:12:45
it's just like it just becomes a mass yeah a mess a Massy mess uh shaer Skies
1:12:51
or Derek I love your uh your history of Warhammer can you please talk about your research and writing process well as
1:12:57
quickly as you can I don't know how that's probably like a chat a video all his own right isn't
1:13:03
it yeah I mean a lot of it is you know I just trying to find out what information
1:13:09
is out there so are there interviews you know have you guys interviewed someone has someone else interviewed there's lots of podcasts out there where where
1:13:15
people who were involved in the games have sort of had chats I mean one of the reasons I wanted
1:13:20
to start interviewing people was because I always found that there was a question missing that I had you know that would would really help me but I try and find
1:13:28
all that sort of stuff I try and reach out to people who are involved and see if they're up for sort of answering some
1:13:33
questions either over email or over a proper sort of Zoom interview and then
1:13:39
going back to all of the original material that's out there so the games the white dwarves the journals whatever
1:13:46
else was coming out and just really trying to see if there's anything there and then obviously Google's great as well there's loads of people who have
1:13:51
done better work work than I am doing for years on blogs and websites and you
1:13:58
know and I try and make sure that I'm calling those people out and using them as a source as well CU I like to think
1:14:05
that the reason they've documented it is because they want you know future historians as it were to be able to find
1:14:11
the same information that they found so I try and sort of bring that in as well um so sometimes feels a bit like
1:14:17
standing on the shoulder of giants you know and the people who have done amazing work so it's like the awesome lies blog has been doing this incredible
1:14:24
like academic level history of Warhammer fantasy roleplay and how that developed over time fantastic read if you're
1:14:32
interested in Warhammer fantasy roleplay and the Warhammer World in general and how it evolved brilliant place to start
1:14:39
so stuff like that really helps as well um but you would be amazed how much
1:14:44
stuff is in like white dwarf yeah early white dwarf yeah just when you were talking about that when we last caught
1:14:50
up it was like oh yeah I suppose because they used to have so many interviews in yeah incredible nice thank you uh
1:14:55
Christopher venty is your relaxed and soothing tone of voice from your videos natural or that a m or is that a mask of
1:15:01
deception and lies that you put on for the public we all know from chaning before it started he's a cockney uh it's
1:15:07
all lies it's all lies course talk in such heavy rhyen slang I couldn't
1:15:13
understand what he says yeah yeah it's just we got so confused didn't we what is this who is this guy uh no it's real
1:15:20
can't confir I hope it's real yeah i' like think it's real using so I been ask where where are you from originally so I
1:15:27
I was born in Chester but I was raised in Manchester ah um and then I spent
1:15:32
some time down south as well so yeah I I I I think cuz I I try and spend a lot of
1:15:39
time on the scripts as well and sort of writing the script to to make it into because I really like it's a story as
1:15:45
much as it's a history and factual it's also a story of what happened so I I hope that that then gives it the sort of
1:15:52
you you know definitely a nicer structure that's nicer to listen to so yeah definitely got a timeline flow I
1:15:59
think yeah hopefully and it you know a little bit of dare I say you know
1:16:04
there's maybe a little bit of poetry in there maybe hopefully in in the just you know trying to choose some nice words
1:16:11
basically better than me I can't do nice words just do simple ones gun witch where the actual H do you find all those
1:16:17
old classic books and Minis and how the Frack do you have nice use of Games Workshop swear words like it how the
1:16:24
fact do you manage to afford them I'm so jealous great bloody vids though oh you could have used a different word than
1:16:29
bloody there goodwitch you could have gone more that who came up with uh Frack first GW or Battlestar
1:16:36
Galactica I don't know did they say frack in the original series what in the original Battle Star
1:16:42
yeah no only only in the remake in the REM tanith and Frack I think was verive
1:16:50
uh swear and rock as if you Judge Dread yeah yes yeah Ro but could FR could just
1:16:57
be General I don't know yeah uh Ray Bell and Jordan s is such a great oh you did
1:17:03
I just talked about yeah where did you get your books from Jordan I mean some so like I say I've been a collector for
1:17:08
a long time so there was a point in time when I sort of swore off the hobby briefly um you know I call it the age of
1:17:15
strife when I was out of the Hobby and I kind of got rid of everything or most stuff um and I really regretted it so
1:17:23
then I started sort of re buying and sort of recollecting stuff over time so it's it's multiple Decades of just
1:17:30
getting stuff and Clinging On to stuff and nowadays obviously there's been this incredible boom in the in the market so
1:17:38
he's kind of almost become like a Speculator market for secondhand GW stuff so some of it's just getting lucky
1:17:44
and finding Bargains here and there some of it is okay actually I'm going to have to pay a bit more for this um but it's
1:17:51
it's an investment as well I think not I want to be so sort of cynical about it
1:17:56
but some of the stuff that gives me joy now might not in the future and because there is that market it's sort of
1:18:02
trading on that as well so yeah but a lot of it is just searching stuff out yeah and getting lucky yeah I feel a bit
1:18:09
sort of silly passing stuff onto like nieces and nephews and going oh I should have kept that book now or I should have
1:18:16
kept that model never mind but the joy that you've given On You' passed on that joy to someone else you make your
1:18:21
choices at the time don't you yeah absolutely certainly there's like an era of books I'm just like they didn't feel
1:18:26
very valuable um and it didn't get a lot of like love a certain era of and I was
1:18:32
just like I'll just pass them to like lizz's friend at school or whatever he's into it and whatever and then now I'm
1:18:38
just like should have kept him but yeah not that bothered uh cool thank you Ray
1:18:43
Bellion Jordan sorcery is such a great Channel there you how do you managed to get so many GW veterans on your channel
1:18:50
uh which would be the hero from any Warhammer quest game you would like to interview the most oh that's a lot of
1:18:56
questions there Ray uh so how how do you get so many GW veterans on your channel
1:19:01
iess I guess you ask yeah I mean it really is so so many of these people are just so generous yeah and and are
1:19:08
willing to come and have a conversation and talk about some stuff I think some people enjoy reliving P glories and sort
1:19:15
of telling those stories so it's it's been a case of just reaching out to people I don't have any special connections really into into the
1:19:21
industry or anything like that I've never wored worked for Games Workshop so I I've just reached out to people and
1:19:27
tried to be polite and just see if they want to come on and chat yeah yeah um
1:19:33
it's done you well yeah and and like I say it's only because people are so nice and have just been willing to do it um
1:19:39
would the Warhammer Quest hero you interview be the elf and why did he fall down that trap it would be the dwarf and it would be why did you not bring to ro
1:19:47
[Laughter] unreal uh offbeat builds do you have any
1:19:52
bucket list Miniatures or games from the deep dark past that you'd love to have but can't justify selling a kidney to
1:19:59
fund yeah I mean loads absolutely loads I mean a lot of it tends to be supplements and stuff that I I missed uh
1:20:06
over the years Terror in the dark was the one supplement they did for advanced hero Quest and that advanced hero Quest
1:20:14
has been in and out of my collection many times over the years I currently do have a copy I've never owned Terror in
1:20:20
the dark it doesn't come with Miniatures or anything it's only his extra templates his extra rules and and
1:20:25
scenario stuff and dungeon tiles I think that is something that at some point I
1:20:31
will want to own but it goes for unreal amounts of money on on eBay these days
1:20:38
and it yeah it has for a long time so I think that's probably one of them I would say um oh good yeah yeah good good
1:20:46
good yeah there a lot of asking the same stuff really we've already covered uh Andrew marrington love Jordan S I know
1:20:52
loves Warhammer Quest so here's a question if you were able to decide the setting for the next Warhammer Quest box
1:20:58
set what would it be wow that's a great question yeah I I do love the Warhammer
1:21:03
Quest and it so I I enjoyed cursed city
1:21:09
as as it was and I I like the setting of ol and khah I think they do some fun stuff there I don't think the game was
1:21:14
perfect it sort of didn't quite work so I quite like the idea of transplanting that back into the old world yeah it
1:21:21
could generally be anywhere could and you could you could put it into prag in Kev you know before it sort of Falls
1:21:28
there history of vampires there so you could do that or you could even put it you know you could go to like um how to
1:21:35
pronounce it muon mu in brettonia before that sort of Falls so there's there's old world settings you could do for that
1:21:41
but I must admit that I really like Blackstone Fortress and I think as a setting it's just a really cool way of
1:21:48
doing quest in 40K yeah because you get to it's a fringes of the world so you
1:21:54
can have you can have zenos and Imperium guys working together and you can do all of these old retro like the UL and and
1:22:02
Imperial robots you can bring all that sort of stuff so I think there's probably a cool 40K setting my friend I
1:22:08
was going to say I I loved all the sort of like almost AI side of the Blackstone for had Not only was the chaos was like
1:22:15
all the weird sort of things that going off yeah it was really cool yeah my friend Rob never played it and it kicks me that
1:22:21
I do for the channel on top of all the other prom to play it's well worth it
1:22:27
it's a great it's a really fun version of quest and you know it uses the 4K Universe really well I think the minis
1:22:34
in it are awesome as they are already some really nice Min in yeah gorgeous stuff yeah really nice but yeah a friend
1:22:40
of mine called Rob who who sort of was like well I I would do it if I was going to do a 40K quest in the webway so like
1:22:47
in the lar webway you could even do the black Library yes yeah and so I I can't
1:22:53
take credit for the idea but I just think that's really cool I think that's a really neat idea so it's all lar stuff
1:23:00
you can it's it's all unknowable because it's still within the the you know in the warp and in the webway so you can
1:23:05
have a chaos incursion in there or something like that and I think there's a lot of cool stories you could tell and
1:23:11
a lot of weird old 40K stuff that's just been lost in there for
1:23:16
Millennia also you could incorporate like certain characters like I'm sure I can't I don't think Eisen horn has but
1:23:21
there's definitely been some like inquisitors that have journeyed to the black library to get like some okay yeah
1:23:27
DEA grimoire or whatever some information because they've got like you know contacts with the Eldor yeah
1:23:32
because it would you think about the cool stuff in Blackstone Fortress with like the the uh spindle drones and then
1:23:39
the massive one that's cool though the The Fortress itself is trying to get at you and that was cool in silver Tower
1:23:45
where the the silver Tower is like doing stuff it's a dungeon that reacts to your presence and I can only imagine that the
1:23:52
AL would have similar weird stuff going on that repels you yeah so I think that
1:23:58
would be fun yeah good disco zinch friend of the show Michael hi uh
1:24:03
Contender for second best koif in the business Jeff will always be number one you very much Beyond GW based creators
1:24:10
and law what other companies creators and or IPS would you be interested in expanding or interviewing algorithm not
1:24:18
withstanding so I I've done a couple of role play games that me a lot to me so I
1:24:23
did dragon Lance fifth age which was a DND attempt to do something very
1:24:29
different so it's basically taking D and D which at the time was Advanced and dragons and doing a card-based system o
1:24:36
instead of dice based yeah that was a super interesting sort of bold effort that didn't work out and then dark
1:24:43
matter which was another RPG that Wizards of the Coast did which was kind of like the X Files if you were just
1:24:50
going to do a sort of contemporary then contemporary X Files game so I think there's more stuff in that kind of space
1:24:56
so there's more DND D stuff I love plcape and that world and looking at
1:25:01
some of the other sort of histories of what TSR were producing that I think
1:25:08
would be quite interesting to explore because also I suppose that's got a similar history to Workshop isn't it and like you know the Divergent paths one
1:25:15
maintain miniature war game one carried on with like the D and D side of things yeah absolutely there's a lot of cross over there cuz obviously there was that
1:25:21
relationship with other Gam Workshop it was you know Games Workshop was built on Dungeons and Dragons because they
1:25:27
imported it had the exclusive license it was taking off massively that allowed
1:25:33
Steve Jackson and Ian Livingston to create the company that they did and then move into their own games and then
1:25:39
obviously Citadel and so on so you've kind of got a really interesting shared history there's like TSR UK where they
1:25:46
started producing stuff over here once the exclusive deal ended and TSR we're going to have to produce our own stuff in the UK then then uh that didn't work
1:25:54
out for them but a load of the people who worked there when it went under
1:25:59
moved across to Games Workshop and started working on Warhammer fantasy roleplay and and really built a lot of
1:26:05
what the fantasy law would be so I think there's a an interesting sort of parallel story of TSR not just in the UK
1:26:13
but like tsr's development and Dungeons and Dragons development alongside Warhammer and how did they diff sort of
1:26:19
evolve in different directions to to where they are now still being the sort of Market leaders in their respective
1:26:25
Fields so yeah probably something in that suppose have you ever I know I've mentioned this before on the channel have you ever watched the documentary
1:26:31
from Amazon that's I think it's called Beyond D and D the art of yes yeah literally if you watch that that reminds
1:26:39
me so much of the studio when I was working at the studio and a few people that worked at the studio it reminded the the times before I got there it's
1:26:45
such a parallel to Workshop especially like things when they talk about oh yeah those we'll get we had some uh
1:26:52
person started archiving The Art and then we found out those the art been thrown out and they had like all these
1:26:58
skips and like it wasn't until the third skip for that a builder came along going oh do you want to keep this stuff um and
1:27:04
obviously three skip FS of art actually because they trying to Archive it all been bined yeah and destroyed and I was
1:27:09
like yeah that sounds familiar the um there's a documentary um about 2000 ad
1:27:16
and um called Future Shock and um they had uh a leak in the building have you
1:27:24
seen this documentary they had a leak in the they had a leak in the building and one of the artists had to go down into
1:27:30
the basement to do something and they' just been using the pages of art to blot up the
1:27:36
water I mean so much of this history is going it's like the BBC in their Doctor Who archives right a lot so much of it
1:27:42
was lost because well who's going to watch get calleded over with or they they reuse all the tapes and whatever it
1:27:49
was I remember there was a fire at um ardman animations like Wallace and grommet all their original stuff's gone
1:27:56
that was that was quite a few years ago but but they're using the art for for
1:28:01
because even artists now when they like do commission work they're all they're so disrespected for what they do because
1:28:07
they oh can you not just do it for free because I'm just helping you out get building your portfolio it's like no values until they've got a piece of art
1:28:14
or there's like box cover for a movie or a computer game they only care about it then when you're actually having to pay for art it's it's not valuable when
1:28:21
people see it it's just like it's just a bit rubbish in it just a bit bit of just coloring in just coloring in it's really
1:28:28
yeah not to plug my own work here but I'm working on like a fantasy battle
1:28:34
scenario so like a just just for fun because I wanted to just you know write something that was kind of like the
1:28:41
campaign set boxes that I used to really like so I commissioned some art for that as well and it's it's a it's a fun thing
1:28:49
to do and to see this real art that's created based on your brief and and it's it's just really really good and I just
1:28:55
think there's so many great artists out there it's kind of and we probably don't have time to get into the AI art
1:29:00
discussion where that goes but like that's a fear for me is that we lose something really special because we go
1:29:08
down that route and I I'm with you I think that Art's yeah really valuable and we should value the artists and
1:29:13
credit them and you know no agreed Andrew Gibson Andrew Gibson what's the best book series for beginners you got
1:29:18
any thoughts um I you know I'm probably not the best person to ask on that one cuz I
1:29:25
I like I say I've not read as much of the Games Workshop fiction as I would
1:29:30
like to have so I'm just now getting into Conrad so that was one of the old fantasy trilogies
1:29:37
um I don't know that I think at the time it was probably not bad I don't think
1:29:43
now you would want to start there uh I mean everyone says Eisen hor is probably the best start for 40K right um so I
1:29:50
don't think I'd argue with with the common consensus on it um but once I've read all of them I will come back and
1:29:57
tell you yes great answer I like that I think the thing that I think Eisen horn does well isn't it doesn't it doesn't
1:30:03
swamp you with races it keeps you know it keeps races to it introduces it over
1:30:09
time doesn't yeah yeah because they they chat to like one lar in book three a
1:30:16
little bit and I think that's about it really is it quite a lot the the main alien that's in the first book doesn't
1:30:23
even have a model range no you know so um you know I think that thing of just
1:30:28
only introducing it as in when you you really need to within Eisen horn I think really worked well for it plus you get a
1:30:35
comprehensive understanding of the most important thing in the 41st Millennium which is body gloves yeah absolutely
1:30:41
yeah and the variety of colors that they come in I put you in good standing for what we're all wearing underneath our
1:30:47
app keeps life from you in this weather and like I think I uh it was was from CH
1:30:53
to Ian um he said he had like aiter in and he has a book club and and that kind of body
1:30:59
then and possibly does what he wears under his clothes own business yeah um
1:31:04
and the and like you said like earlier with the business decisions and this that and the other that eisenhorn was
1:31:10
released to publicize The Inquisitor game game and how that game is dead and
1:31:18
gone yeah and Eisen horn is is touted as like you know the the beginning of like
1:31:24
the big black library and this is how you get into 4K and this book's amazing and it was like it was designed to
1:31:29
promote a game that doesn't exist anymore died died out within what two
1:31:36
three years it wasn't long was it was for now started getting into the the really sad thing was is as it died some
1:31:43
of the nicest minutes were produc that they didn't the one that you'll remember
1:31:48
they made and they they showed it you know talking about as you were saying Jordan about projects that were were
1:31:55
talked about in advance and then never happened is they did um they did the Sniper Assassin vinder
1:32:03
yeah did the vinder Assassin in quiz scale model and showed him to everyone
1:32:08
and then went struggling on getting to mold getting this to cut up in a mold it's just not working it just never
1:32:14
happened yeah but it showed it to everyone as well and been you was like this is what you could have won yeah
1:32:20
abely right yeah there's a few I mean world have got a few of those kind of Miniatures they showed off in open days that just never made it and I think
1:32:26
there's some cool stuff there that would have been nice to see yeah sometimes wonder if it's like you know they don't think it's going to sell or it just
1:32:31
doesn't like you say just doesn't work from a molding point which a shame I I do like how they introduced some of the
1:32:37
characters into 40K now because you've got brother Artemis he was the death
1:32:43
watch guy he was a plastic yeah you got obviously Eisen horn but then they've there was what was
1:32:49
the sister battle Army set which is now like the start collecting set um one of
1:32:54
the AR I think it's that or it might be the Arco flatulant set itself one of you can make as Damian uh 4528 orever I
1:33:02
forget his name someone can correct it in the comments uh and then you got Sergeant Stone which is with the new Inquisitor War there's a whole bunch
1:33:09
that they're just slowly but surely making figures of which I really like I think that's you could probably end up doing Inquisitor using the uh enough
1:33:16
figures that are out there uh Ruby from uh raw want to explode uh she's on the twitch uh the Twitches uh she's got a
1:33:23
question uh she's got multiples one's already been answered uh what piece of really weird law is your
1:33:30
favorite do you have any really weird bits of law that your favorite yeah I'm not sure I do now I mean I've I've told
1:33:37
uh I've told the B gargoyles which is like my favorite bit of lore at the moment um anything weird and
1:33:47
strange I mean sugs does all the weird sort of Iceberg things like what is that
1:33:53
I don't know no I'm stumped now sure I mean the other part of this is can you rearrange Peach's paints for
1:33:59
me while you're there please uh so I went to ARF Lake and Heath on Saturday
1:34:04
and they were they realized that I liked my paints and set colors uh cuz I know whereever is it
1:34:11
saves on time you know a couple of seconds here but across like many projects minutes could add up to hours
1:34:18
uh they just moved them all around absolute bastards the US Air Force are
1:34:23
you know you are what you think I've been doing to that AK you no no no no no
1:34:28
I mean it's a bit mixed up anyway it it's in perfect order yeah sure uh Spen painting uh what aspect of
1:34:37
warmer fantasy battle coming back is Jordan most excited for and also which faction in Warhammer fantasy battle
1:34:43
would make the best cheese it's always a cheese question it's got to be a cheese
1:34:50
question um so the story is the thing I'm most excited about because you know
1:34:55
all of as sad as I was about the end of the Warhammer fantasy Universe we can still play all eight editions that there
1:35:01
were before you just get your friends together and have a game yeah so even if I don't enjoy the rules or this version
1:35:07
of the game they're being a current sort of Warhammer fantasy thing and there's
1:35:12
new stories coming out people are talking about it and getting involved in it and enjoying it that's something I'm
1:35:18
really excited about just the sort of the community and the storytelling aspect so that that's the thing that
1:35:24
sort of really got me quite hyped I guess um so I'm looking forward to that
1:35:30
a lot in terms of the the the yeah I was thinking about this and
1:35:36
because I think that there's I think there should be another chaos God called fromage yeah yeah I think that that's
1:35:42
the real ruinous power certainly in this world thr into the fry as well why sorry well I just I
1:35:50
find I find that cheese is the ruinous power
1:35:55
on our Earth so cuz I I just love it too much so I think it's probably going to be one of the chaos factions and I I
1:36:02
feel like it might be scaven I was going to say if there is a cheese God do you reckon that's why the scaven of all the nor holes and they're trying to find the
1:36:09
God just trying to get to him like come on he's down here somewhere I just can't find him maybe the center of the old
1:36:15
world is cheese yeah or maybe mole and mo mo Le is made of green cheese yeah uh
1:36:22
maybe that's what it is yeah I'm not saying I would want to eat it but I feel like probably do make the best cheese
1:36:28
yeah yeah uh and last question for Max what kind of wizard are you if not what wizard would you
1:36:34
be there you go well yeah I mean I guess a sorcerer of some description um I
1:36:42
quite like I'm not sure why but like the demonologists feel cool I know there's a
1:36:49
lot of you know you can make a deal and lose your soul there yeah and maybe make a few accidents but I think that if I
1:36:55
can do it right I can make the deal and not lose my soul so I've always got the
1:37:00
vibe that you're the kind of guy that Buffy would go to for advice sure but you want to you want I mean that that
1:37:07
does sound cool and happily yeah that would be great you open your grimo and you're just like y I've got it sort what
1:37:12
did you say vampires with three eyes okay give me a minute yeah but like like any good sort of Watcher like Giles you
1:37:19
need to have had a little bit of dark in your p as well cuz you may be straight too close to the dark Powers at some
1:37:25
point but you came back and you came good and then you can use that knowledge help people exactly yeah yeah so that
1:37:32
that sounds right yeah that sounds right former demonologist former demonologist I'm going to there and grab a roll in a
1:37:37
second but I've got a question for you what is your favorite edition of Warhammer oh now you're putting me on
1:37:44
the spot Qui disappear get in trouble on that yeah he just drops the grenade and runs off
1:37:49
yeah yeah hold this so I I like for different reasons I kind of like most of
1:37:55
the additions a lot and at the moment I'm really enjoying the rules for seventh edition but the Army books for
1:38:01
sixth and a lot of the stuff for sixth edition so that kind of like mixture
1:38:07
I've got more time for a lot of the other editions than I think some people have um understandably you know I think
1:38:13
eighth edition isn't that loved but I do quite like it got a lot of affection for
1:38:18
it but I think probably like if I could only have one version of the game in my
1:38:23
life it would have to be the one I started with which was fourth edition so even though it's not necessarily the
1:38:29
best or you know I would want to play all the time now it means the most to me
1:38:34
probably is that one with the bonian and the no that the fifth edition so goblins
1:38:39
and that was always one I started on but yes I probably played a few games the prior yeah yeah the one that the most
1:38:45
literally physically the most dangerous edition of the game because those Spears will just if you touch them they you're
1:38:53
just going to have them all sticking out of your arms your feet your legs that said many of times that they were real un absolutely unreal what I find
1:39:00
interesting about Warhammer fantasy battle in it in its additions compared to 40K is that you don't always just get
1:39:08
brettonian versus somebody like you do with Space Marines it's always Space Marines versus a changing rle of B guys
1:39:15
but it but fantasy wasn't was it you like goblins versus highs or this versus
1:39:20
that you go Empire versus Orcs what was the dwarfs versus um goblins night night
1:39:26
goblins with all their pointy little hats never the same yeah yeah whereas you know it's always Space Marines yeah
1:39:32
and they sort of received wisdom is like well that's part of the problem right and that's why Warhammer didn't sell as
1:39:38
well was because you don't have a poster faction like the Space Marines and now the uh
1:39:44
stormcast and you kind of it feels like oh maybe it's going to be humans and the Empire might be a good one
1:39:51
but Alan Meritt was saying that they didn't really sell that well the Empire despite being one of the best Rangers I think over the years so it's kind of odd
1:39:59
that they didn't find that over all of those additions but maybe because there's just I mean who do you choose in the old fantasy world certainly from
1:40:06
retail Derby and the the few stores I've served in worked in um Orcs Orcs and
1:40:12
green skins always seem to be the most popular that went through the till the most I think sure I can believe that
1:40:17
there's a lot of character to them they're fun aren't they yeah I think like you find play D and D I think like a human fighter is is
1:40:25
probably like like the generic character Choice like you like oh I want to be this high off like there's so much
1:40:32
choice that to be a human is is almost like the boring option like and you can
1:40:38
have like like in the campaigns that we've done like human Fighters some of like really really fun characters but
1:40:44
you're like oh I want to be this massive orc instead yeah that's what I love about like oh move that way too far
1:40:50
that's what I love about um like Warhammer is there something out there for everyone I've always been I love being the human element I I don't want
1:40:56
to be the Space Marine I don't want to be the superum in 40K I want to be like the Guardsman who's a bit Naf yeah and it's the same for like fantasy I always
1:41:03
wanted to be the Empire Trooper who's got like a little halber shaking his hands as like an eight foot like Orcs like but it's not him on his own that
1:41:09
could deal with that it's the rest of his 50 bus with their HS as well um I think yeah for me it's always been the human element um but other people just
1:41:17
like green skins or big Power Armor dudes or chaos or whatever fascinating
1:41:23
got it in twice got it twice so before we move on to the end and all that uh so Matt render mentioned earlier um I
1:41:29
always forget Matt's actual real name he's called Matt render on Instagram because he renders art to Mak sense I
1:41:35
guess he's Illustrated the wrong wolf uh which is a book coming out Christian
1:41:41
Craighead SAS guy uh Obi-Wan nirobi as he's known oh yeah um he oh that guy
1:41:47
that guy yeah so he did a he wasn't allowed to sell his story about doing that so he end up making a children's
1:41:53
story instead and Matt's Illustrated it but he's a fan of the show and he's one of our Pat children's story about taking
1:41:58
a a hotel B yeah so we have a load of uh modern day uh Storm Troopers he's given
1:42:05
us a whole bunch of art this is they got like night vision goggles and Vis goggles so we' got a couple um so I'm
1:42:10
going to scoot through a few of them oh my God we got some Orcs there as well we got some daaka Daka boys uh battle tribe
1:42:17
seems to be the thing where people like you know get their Miniatures or like stickers and stick them on stuff that's very cool as well isn't he oh he likes
1:42:24
his he likes his nvgs there's a few of them wearing them there isn't he Jacker with his M I was going to say it's an
1:42:30
M60 but it's not is it it's like it's M6 very m6s it's a shooter shooter oh
1:42:36
that's that's like Classic front cover that that great amazing that's a
1:42:42
second edition uh almost turns into graffiti up there it's excellent oh and then some clones shooting some clankers
1:42:49
oh fun oh the front one there and the uh the classic cool uh classic cool rifle
1:42:56
position oh they're Ace aren't they they're really cool he is retired now but he used to do a lot of art for uh
1:43:04
New York police department so forensic artist oh wow and we got load of stickers and stuff battle tribe oh it's
1:43:11
extraordinarily kind of it's that like a Mis man like the blue it does look like a Mr Man it is a
1:43:18
Mr man it's Mr gungho I think it's Mr it looks like Mr Bump
1:43:23
butd armor up Mr Bump I love that like sort of um I don't know what's the guy
1:43:29
from Mad Max called Fury Road oh um oh yeah Joe Joe yeah got load
1:43:36
of stickers so I can get some of these on my uh oh brilliant oh so de dealer if you know you're Frank fretta yeah de
1:43:44
dealer kind of vibe oh and then there's the Obi-Wan look at that oh Obi-Wan Nairobi yeah Obi-Wan yes load oh look at
1:43:52
that the biker Scout with nvgs on as well more Orcs some of the I like this
1:43:59
guy what a cool Hall yeah so he just sent a load of stuff through you'll like this next one I've got he's pretty cool
1:44:05
oh that's so like and then what everyone wants on
1:44:11
their car snake snake snake and then we've also got some Miniatures of
1:44:18
um oh my God even more stickers holy smokes good Lord and the Miniatures are from Austin Miniatures um so I'll just
1:44:26
throw them in sorry Jordan loads of cards as well from Austin Miniatures but they are the models of Storm Troopers
1:44:33
stroke clone troopers with night vision uh are my only impression again there we
1:44:40
go sorry B so yeah so thank you very much Matt for sending those oh they got a letter to read uh I'll read this out
1:44:46
uh Matt kleene Matthew kleene rendo is his middle name dear pachy and the painting phase crew absolutely love the
1:44:53
show my Monday painting show I watch and hobby to a complete pleasure to um to
1:44:59
watch uh love all the great guests and content keep up the great work in this package are some cool resin battle tribe
1:45:06
Troopers and an awesome Obi-Wan Nairobi miniature courtesy to my good friend
1:45:11
over at Austin Miniatures also some battle trap stickers and art prints that I did I retired last year from the New
1:45:18
York Police Department as a detective sketch artist so thought you digging a New York Police Department uh patch
1:45:24
enjoy and all the best can't wait for the ne to see what you guys do next uh all the best Matthew render Klein thank
1:45:31
you so much Matthew for sending those through good shout out go check him out on Instagram as Matt render as well because he does lots of Art and well
1:45:37
you've just seen all the art uh it's amazing they're so sweet they're really cool and uh yeah I've got um uh the
1:45:45
wrong Wolf coming through for Charlie to read as well SOC SAS wolves that's what
1:45:50
you need in the world s all day long from what I've not read it yet but I understand it's like a wolf that doesn't
1:45:56
quite understand it's a wolf and just protects sheep uh so just the opposite of I could be wrong but I've not read it
1:46:02
but that's a general gist a wolf that goes into a a shopping center and yeah takes
1:46:08
off it out what do you ever hear about that story so um there was a hotel
1:46:15
complex wasn't there and cuz Christine craer and
1:46:20
obviously I know he wanted to come clean about it cuz so many people were like pretending to be him and getting like free drinks in bars and stuff but I I
1:46:27
saw it happening on the news um and no one knew who he was everyone was like oh
1:46:32
it's this special force is this special forces always wearing pink he's got a pink top and it was like I think it was gray it was just the light and all the
1:46:38
photograph just in a share he just out and about was but for me what it encompasses is not only how good the
1:46:44
special forces are but also you are teaching people what you are trained to do and cuz he at the time he was
1:46:51
teaching is it the Kenyan he was teaching yeah he was over there he was over there in in instructor role for the
1:46:57
for there I think for their equivalent to special for so talk about leading by example cuz he was on like a refreshment
1:47:02
run or getting like some drinks or bits or or whatever and then it happened and he just had all his gear in the back so
1:47:08
he just went in go you lot stay out here I'm going in I was just like BL X so imagine the next day he just like right
1:47:13
did you learn because you imagine like people go oh he says he's the SAS oh yeah sure we'll do the theory and then
1:47:18
next they like right we're listening you definitely know what you're doing I like the idea that he just had his rifle
1:47:24
in the boots of his car yeah well why not if you can but these are great I can't wait to paint these guys up uh CU
1:47:30
I recently painted some stuff for Specta Miniatures um and they were really good fun doing modern so doing some Modern
1:47:35
with Storm Trooper heads I'm all about that uh absolutely yeah so I like the
1:47:40
fact that he's blatantly dressed not for going into to do that it jeans in a jeans in a t-shirt W yeah yeah yeah just
1:47:47
had his uh he just had his his gear in the back of the car just but so one thing that was quite interesting and
1:47:54
terrifying actually um there's an interview with a lady that gets rescued I think she's I think she's American
1:48:00
she's talking to the Embassy at the time because they have like emergency numbers and stuff she's in the hotel room and
1:48:05
it's all kicking off outside and they're like advising don't look out the window because we don't want the terrorists to
1:48:10
know if you know they can see and this that the other and one of the things they tell you to do is take your card out of the read you know you put your
1:48:16
card in to get the electrics on the lights on because they can read that downstairs if who's in their rooms so
1:48:21
they know which rooms are occupied so they can just go to those rooms cuz they know they're occupied so the information
1:48:27
was like take your card out otherwise they'll know you're in there which is just like I would never have thought of
1:48:32
that as a thing such a simple simple mechanic so anyway back on to there he is to look
1:48:40
at him in a minute every but Warhammer yay we love Warhammer uh thank you so
1:48:46
much Jordan for coming on uh and thank you for uh just doing the quiz earlier or the quiz next whichever watching
1:48:55
having me it's been great fun and thank you for for Pon Tre day ponar I'll get some photos before you go so we can
1:49:00
stick them over because we try and get some images been great screen yeah good well good quiz good quiz it was good
1:49:07
forun if you not watch the quiz watch the quiz cuz just watch his stress well watch it cuz you put loads of effort in
1:49:12
you put loads of effort in especially in the middle questions which we ran out of real
1:49:17
quick thank you very much uh and we'll see you on the next show byebye bye bye
1:49:23
bye Bella you're saying bye you're waking up for byes bye off she's off thank you so much
1:49:32
that's good thank you was that all right that was great I mean everyone does that it's normal was like is that all
1:49:38
right that's okay yeah you did fine how can I help you
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