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What's going on, Nation
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A.J. Riley here with Eric Vincent for your favorite Detroit Sports Show Beyond the Box
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We have a lot of stuff. You know, NBA trade deadline just happened, just ended
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A lot of, I mean, I woke up this morning inundated with trade news, with trade deadline news
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The biggest news being Kevin Garrette, Kevin Garrette. What? It's okay. Kevin Durant
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There you go. Is no longer a Brooklyn net. Oh, man. He's now a Phoenix son
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Teaming up with Aiton and Booker. DeAidon, Chris Paul, David Booker. Another super team for Kevin Durant
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Another super team. I mean, at a certain point, it's just, I mean, that's what they are, right
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All these, they just all team up together to play to be super teams
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And what's crazy is the Nets got two players back plus. was it five four first round picks four first rounders yeah they got um mckell bridges cam johnson
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and then four first and then t j warren or not t j warren uh yeah no yeah t j warren went to phoenix
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with him yep he's a part of the deal for four first round do people not like draft picks anymore
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carrie just got traded as you said last time for a sixth grader in two thousand twenty nine and kevin garnett guy
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Dread! Dred! Oh my God. It's okay, man. This is how mind-blown I am
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This is how crazy I am. This is how crazy it is. Like, I can't even keep the name straight because these doggone guys are being traded
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for four first-round picks. Nuts. Absolutely insane. This is the biggest reality TV show in sports right now
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It's insane. NBA Trade Deadline is always nuts. And yes, like you saw
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said, waking up to the woe's bob and shams and everybody going nuts
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And we, I mean, we just talked about on the last show. To me, this is something else that I think is kind of ruining the game
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We talked about it's Steph Curry's three ruining the game. The abuse of player empowerment is ruining the NBA
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This is just getting out of hand, especially when they want to go to super teams like this
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Like, it just makes no sense to me. Well, like, okay, there's two sides of this, right
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Okay. And I don't have the full story. So maybe you can enlighten me a little bit
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But this whole like diva thing of I made like Kevin Garnett
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Kevin Durant is a doggone good player considered to be probably one of the best all time
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All time great. But yet he demands essentially to be teamed up with these other superstars
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Yep. But then on the flip side of that coin, you also have a pretty darn good point guard or was at once a pretty darn good point guard
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in John Wall, who is under contract. No, no, no. John Wall, who's under contract and is, like, refusing to play
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Oh, okay, I see what you're saying. You know what I'm saying? So there's, like, two sides of this whole diva-ness
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that is going into the NBA that is, like, the product, right
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Yeah. It's ruining, and, like, for me, I don't like it. Yeah
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I didn't think you would. John Wall's situation is a little different
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just because he's on like a rebuilding team and a veteran. Sure, I get that. Kevin Durant is the worst
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He's the absolute worst. I mean, he starts off with a absolute super team of a young core with him
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Russell Westbrook, James Hardin, that OKC Corps was supposed to still be together right now
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Yeah. And they've all moved to at least three or four different teams since then
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Like, it's nuts. And it's always because it, it, I don't have a problem with players wanting to be traded
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but Kevin Durant helped set up everything in Brooklyn. You and Kyrie wanting to run after what you guys signed off on acquiring Ben Simmons
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bringing in James Hardin, deciding on the coach. Like everything was ran by y'all
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Then when it gets tough and tough, as you just said, was fifth in the east
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Now you want to dip? I don't get it. This is one of my biggest pet peeves in the NBA
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And again, I'm terrible. I like players having the freedom of, you know, the little bit of player empowerment
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When you abuse it with situations that you set up, I can't rock with that
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I'm disappointed to hear this news about it. Now, here's my question, okay? Kevin Durant demand this trade
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Yes. After the Kyrie thing. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't publicized that he asked for it
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but he did ask for a trade before the season started. So maybe he did, maybe he didn't
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So who ruined the Nets? That's, I think, maybe the question. Who ruined the Nets
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And maybe the Nets are fine. Maybe the Nets, addition by subtraction
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get rid of the distraction of the two divas. And as, you know, some other people I know that know the game of basketball well
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say that they can go 10 deep and they'll still make the playoffs
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Maybe. Like, maybe this is addition by subtraction, but, like, you look at it from the outside and it
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you seem to think, did Kyrie blow up the Nets? Kyrie deserves a lot of blame
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KD deserves a lot of blame. But I'm going to be honest with you. I'm going to put it on the front office because the front office had a young core
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They had guys, Karris Levert, Jared Allen, DeAngelo Russell, Joe Harris, who was a sniper
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And you traded basically 75% of that to have Kevin Durant and Kyrie in
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Now, granted, if you have a chance to get a superstar, you do it. I don't blame you of that
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But taking all of your assets and then putting all the power into the hands of your superstars
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that's on the front office. You got to at least set a standard that, hey, we're happy to have you
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but this is still our show. Like, Kevin Durand and Kyrie went to Brooklyn without even meeting with them
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They talked to each other and said, hey, you want to go to Brooklyn? Yeah, let's go do it. Then they reached out to them and it became official
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So they, I blame the front office for letting that power be conceded to them. Okay
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So you're kind of blaming the adults in the room. Yes. I am
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where you have to blame the, like, for the players to feel entitled enough to go
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hey, you want to play together? Let's go pick a team. Let's go play with them and then be able to do that
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At a certain point, somebody's got to stand up and say, no. But you can't let it get to that point anyway
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Like, this is nothing like the NFL. The NBA players have too much power to an extent to argue
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And if this is where it's gotten to, it was never supposed to get to this point
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You can welcome in a superstar, but the Joe side, like, you have to be the one still making the final calls
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You can't be, like, I understand running ideas by your, you know, your star players, but having them co-sign everything
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And Kyrie standing out saying things like, oh, maybe we don't need a coach
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And then you don't even like set him straight for that. Then the vaccine drama happens
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And first you go saying, oh, we don't want him here until he makes a decision he wants to be here full time
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Then you change your mind and bring him back and give the power
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back to him. So I have to give it to the front office. They should have kept their foot like on the imprint of the team the whole way And they just conceded all of it You you don know why I don watch the NBA
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Like, this is why. This is why. It's not interesting to me to watch, you know
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30-year-old divas just be paraded around in a lot of ways and get their way every time
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Can we like just have some type of account of, like, Kevin Durant
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is that right? Kevin Durant, you are considered to be an all-time great player
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He is. With an all-time worst attitude. No question. It's so bad
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It's terrible. It's so bad. And I don't know. We could go on this for hours, but I want to talk about the pistons at the trade deadline because they also made a deal
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And they, you know, you are celebrating because Sadiege Bay is no longer a piston
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your least favorite player maybe in the entire world. I don't know
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You've hated on him a lot. But he's no longer a piston
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He was traded to the Warriors who then flipped him for five second round picks to the Atlanta Hawks
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Kevin Knox also goes to the Warriors. And then he goes to the Blazers
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And then he went to the Blazers? Yeah, they just flipped him. So the Warriors flipped two of our players for draft picks
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Pretty much. And we got James Wiseman back. We got James Wiseman in the process, yes
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All we could have done is traded Sadiq to Atlanta for five second round picks
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I mean, basically, that could have been it. And there was a rumor that they tried to get John Collins, who was, you know, their big time for, but that it happened
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Grade the deal from Troy Weaver. Grade the deal. Because the trade deadline's over now
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Grade the deal. Is this a good deal? Wiseman's a center. They really don't have any bigs
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They struggle in defensive rebounding. did he fill the need at the expense of losing someone he made a lot of moves on draft night
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2020 to acquire i'm going to be nice you don't have to be nice i'm going to be nice
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this is a d minus trade b being mean and overreacting is an f the only reason i'm not giving
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him an f is troy weaver is the ultimate chess player so sometimes like last year when they
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traded jeremy grant for a 2025 pick that ended up being parlaying
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into a trade at the draft where they got Jalen Duren back. It was a creative way to basically trade Jeremy Grant for a lottery pick
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So I'm holding out a sliver of hope that maybe there's an extra move that comes on top of this
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But right now, this is a D-minus. I'm so disappointed in this. I'm happy that Zadik Bay is out of here
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He played himself out of this rotation. He's not a shooter like he used to be anymore
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Not consistently, no. Not at all. Like, he was sub-40% as a rookie from three
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He sacrificed that to become an ISO driving player. And that's not his game
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Not his game. I'm okay with him being gone. But what you got in return is an injury prone big that has no moves
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That is not a good defender. And it could be up for a five year $195 million deal in the next two years
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Or not even two years, a year. So he's not worth any of that
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And the Pistons always have this notion of trying to pick up these like these cast
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off players like Marvin Bagley who like oh we don't want you anymore try to somewhere else
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tried re-avent your career with a different team that's exactly what Wiseman is now
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Bo Bo was almost that when we tried trading for him last year and this is I think the worst of those
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players Wiseman hasn't showed anything and I don't think this is a pick that makes sense for
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this team based on how the roster set up okay so there's a couple of things here you have a
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Terrible defensive team, first of all. We know this. Which, okay, Weisman defensively, not great
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But he is a big body. Yes. Okay. Who can play center where you don't really have a center unless you're considering
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Nerland's Noel, you're like center. I know they're like Jalen Duren's supposed to be that role, but is Jalen Duren really a center
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Is he more of a power forward? No, he's a five. Yeah, he's definitely a center. You think he's more of a five
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Okay. Yeah, he's their center. But they've had Isaiah Stewart in the. middle of that and trying to play out a position
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And so maybe this gets them to the finish line of this season with more losses
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more lottery balls in, I mean, this is a tank move. Yeah
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That's what it feels like. It can't be a winning move. Now, like you said, they do need more like depth in the front court for their center
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Jalen Dern is there starting five, hopefully for the next decade. He's shown that he's going to pan out to be great
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Isaiah Stewart, I'm fine with him being your four, but you need an update. upgrade at that position. He's not an amazing defender. He's not polished offensively. You need
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an upgrade at that position. And Marvin Bagley's always hurt. Like that's, like, that's another
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part of it. Like, their depth is bad. You did need another big man. But him, I just don't like that
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And it was rumored that. But hold on. How much, how much of his game can you really see when he
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plays at Golden State? Now, hear me out. Because if he plays at Golden State, they aren't
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really featuring a center with the amount of sharpshooters that they have
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Right. So is there possibility that this was just a bad situation for James Wiseman
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No. Because if I remember correctly, he was quite highly touted coming out of college
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Yep. Coming out of Memphis, he was. He was him. But I think at this point, and you said it, yes, Golden State is not a place where
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they predicate and put a lot of attention on centers. However, they have Jonathan Cominga, who's a four big body, very athletic
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Basically, they try to play him as, imagine Draybod, but with hyper-athleticism attached to it
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Like, we were hoping to see what we saw from Cominga that maybe some of that would translate for Wiseman
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Wiseman hasn't shown that he can be that pick and roll threat with Steph Curry, that he doesn't really mesh with Jordan Poole
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Like, he doesn't have the good rolling skills with the Draymont where he can lobby to you at the
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him. He hasn't shown that. And maybe, maybe this, it is an example of where he needs just a fresh start somewhere
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But I don't think the pistons are the place that are going to be able to bring that out of it. He's still really good
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He hasn't done a great job of developing. I don't think he's going to be able to do it with Wiseman
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But I mean, Dwayne Casey is also not long for this job
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No, basically what we see it. If, like, if any big move was going to happen, I want to see him not a guy like Wisem being carried
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Are we really? I mean, kids 21 years old. He is. He'll be 22 soon in March
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Yes. Yes. There's still time. Of course. Of course it's time. He's written this off already
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I mean, this is third season in the league. Yeah. And through those three seasons, he played, what, 39 games his first year
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He missed the entire second year. And this year, he's only played 21 games dealing with an ankle injury
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Becoming in and out of the G League. Like he just doesn he hasn showed any of the promise that would warrant a move like trading Sadiq Bay who at one point they thought was going to be one of their core guys But isn I just don see it But clearly No he definitely not So are we overvaluing Sadiek Bay
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Uh, yes. But like, again, I don't think Saddek is a superstar, an all star, but you could have got better than James Wiseman in return for that
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I think. Like, again, there were rumors that James, or that John Collins would have been the deal
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I would have rather see that gamble on him instead of a James Wiseman
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I just don't see it, man. It needs to be more than, oh, he's young and that's potential
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We have a bunch of guys like that. You don't want to be the OKC Thunder
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where you have a bunch of young super developmental guys. And you need some proven talent
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Obviously, you're going to be adding to that in the lottery. This, I don't know
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Victor Winbenyama, hopefully. Hopefully, that's it. Don't get your hopes up. It's not pretty, man
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This has been a brutal, this has been a brutal rebuild the year for the Pistons. 14 wins for the Pistons
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No Cade. Like, it's, oh. So here's an interesting thing, considering Detroit, right
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We've gone through what I would call the Sahara Desert of sports fandom recently
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It's just been dry. There's been nothing to look forward to. Not the Pistons, but the Lions have kind of started to become that oasis in the desert in a lot of ways
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Because there's hope. The wings started out really good. this season. They've kind of faltered since then
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but, you know, they've made a push and they've been exciting. The Tigers were a complete disappointment
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last season, fired Alavila, and now you have the Pistons, who have supplanted the Detroit Tigers
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as the worst organization in Detroit at this point. Yeah, maybe. Okay, I just want to make sure
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that we're aligned with that. Like, if we're power-ranking the Detroit teams right now
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you have the Lions, the wings, the tigers would be third, and the pistons would be fourth
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Yeah, maybe. I would maybe flip the tigers and pistons. Maybe. I would, maybe
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Just because of Kaye Cunningham alone. With Cade and Jaylen Duren, those are guys for the future
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How many solidified guys for the future to the Tigers have that you can put your money on at this point
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For the future. When the pitchers come back from injury, you've got
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Six. They got six, six total players, you would say? Okay. But a lot of prospects that are coming up, too, that are going to be solid
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So, okay, let's talk about that then. Let's talk about the Detroit Tigers
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Pitchers and catchers. And when we go, you know, when we have our show on Monday night
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we're going to talk a little bit more about baseball because that will be the week
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that pitchers and catchers have reported or will be reporting next week
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So now that we're in baseball season, because, you know, Super Bowl will be over this Sunday, and that means baseball season has begun
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because the pistons are irrelevant. The wings will soon be irrelevant. It's now baseball season
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What are your expectations for the Tigers coming up this season? They are extremely low
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Extremely low. I don't have any kind of faith for what the Tigers could do this season
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Um, at this point in rebuilds, I, I, I just want to see watchable
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Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. The rebuild is over according to Chris Illich
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Right. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sam Harris said, or Sam Harris. Scott Harris said that he won't use that term. He'll take calculator. Good. Which he did take this off season
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Mm-hmm. Why are your expectations, though? I just don't think they made enough moves. I don't think they did enough to kind of solidify any kind of hope for what I'm seeing
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like they were horrible last season i mean bias was very disappointing the biggest highlight last
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year was miggy chasing history which was fun it was cool to see him get it what's that got in like
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april so after that it was like nothing exactly yeah that's my point like they got that early
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he did well and i mean for that point on it was kind of just rough like it was quiet at camerica
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park um i mean we saw riley green he was a really big highlight i'm super excited to see what he does
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next season. I mean, outside of the, you know, those few names, I don't really have a whole lot of
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expectation for them. They finish last in the division. You know, if they're struggling and, you know, fighting for scraps again at the end of
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the year, I wouldn't be surprised. I don't have high expectations for this team this year
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Over under win total set at 68.5. Under over. And FYI, to correct you, they did not finish last in the division last season
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They finished second to last in the division last year. Oh, yes. Come on
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Fact check. Yeah, I appreciate that. But if they do that this season, I will not be surprised
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Over under 68, I'll go, I'll go slightly under. God, they had 66 last season
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They had 60, let's not, let me set this up for you for a second
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Please. 66 wins last season, 96 losses, using 17 different starting pitchers
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and getting career worst offensive seasons, from guys like Jonathan Scope, Javi Baez
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Austin Meadows only played 36 games last season. That's true. If Austin Meadows comes back and plays a full season
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Jonathan Scope rebounds, which there's no reason why he can't rebound, and Javier was actually a pretty darn good hitter
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the second half of the season. It got lost because of all the strikeouts
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but he was a really good hitter in the second half of the season
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from the All-Star break on. not to mention Riley Green taking a step forward
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not to mention Spencer Torkelson figuring out what a baseball bat is again
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and using it to hit a baseball, there's no reason why this team can't be over 68 and a half wins
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All of that combined is worth at least 10 more wins in my mind
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This team you're looking at, and I know, I know it was a quiet offseason
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and I know people are highly upset that there wasn't a ton of moves made
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You're looking at a team with this current roster constructed that could win at minimum 70 games
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probably at maximum 76 games. Which were end up where in the division
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Probably third. Okay. All right. And you was, okay, and I guess that would be progress, I guess, unless they're just, you know
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Listen, the division bottoms out. Let me ask you. You're putting a lot of hope. I am
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I am putting a lot of hope. But I'm sitting here because I've been like looking at this stuff, especially when it comes to the tigers
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And I've been sitting here thinking like, what went wrong last year
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Everything. Every freaking thing went wrong last year. From the start. But not even from opening day
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From spring training, it went wrong. Because Riley Green fractured his foot in spring training was out for seven weeks
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If he doesn fracture his foot I don think that Spencer Torkelson starts in the major leagues which then allows him to get some seasoning in AAA and come back up and not be you know the struggle bust that he was at the beginning of the season
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Right. So that started it. Then you trade for Austin Meadows. And you trade for Austin Meadows because Riley Green got hurt
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If Riley Green doesn't get hurt, you probably don't trade for Austin Meadows, which means you have Esok Parades
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who was hitting the ball quite well last season. Okay? Then Austin Meadows gets vertigo
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Who gets vert, right? And then he's dealing with an Achilles injury
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And then got help him. He had mental health issues. So I hope that that stuff got figured out before he comes back this season
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Serious business, yeah. Then Mize goes down. Tommy and John surgery. Then Terrick Scoobo goes down
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Then every other pigeon. And then Eduardo Rodriguez falls off the face of the earth
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Like, legitimately, anything that could have gone wrong for the Detroit Tigers in 2022 went wrong
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And they still won 66 games. Which isn't a lot. It's not a lot
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It's not a lot. But they didn't lose 100 games. They lost 96, which is significant
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It's... Four games are significant? It's a lot different look. When you look in the standings and you see a triple digit in the loss column, then you see a double digit
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there's a big difference there okay so so you have hope that not only are they going to stay healthy
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but these young prospects they have are going to pay it out yes because this season the moves
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that were made this offseason there were not there weren't a ton of them right there's two
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reasons and the two reasons they gave me hope number one they got rid of gregory sodo they got rid of
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Gregory Soto, which was a good move because that netted them three potentially major league bats
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Not great bats, not Miguel Cabreras, because nobody's Miguel Cabrera. But two guys who are extremely athletic and can play, multiple positions, actually
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And then a catcher in Donny Sands, who's only had four games at the major league level
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But defensively is a pretty defensive good catcher. the other pieces that they've got have created what in baseball you need is organizational depth
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specifically in the fielding aspect of things in the position player aspect are any of the names
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that they got this off season huge names no which pissed a lot of people off and I understand that
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but if you were on the job for four months would you commit 11 years and 300 million
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to an aging player. If you were... No, absolutely not. Okay. So you kind of have to look at things
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from the Scott Harris perspective, right? Right. You're not going to go spend your new boss's money immediately
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without seeing what you have first. Of course. 2020 is purely an evaluation year for the Detroit Tigers
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They have the organizational depth that they need. They've created a developmental process
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which is going to make those prospects better. Mm-hmm. And 2024 should all pay off
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Which does not mean that they cannot win 75. Maybe, maybe if everything falls right
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push towards like an 80,500 wins, not 500 wins, but a 500 season
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Yeah, that's selling high. That's a dream scenario. 75 wins you had to be happy with
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And there's no reason they can't get there. Maybe. No. It's not maybe
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You're like all You're like all the Detroit fans That are like
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Oh, I can't believe this group that they signed Just a bunch of failures
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Just collecting everybody's nobody's That's I'm not saying that They I'm this the kind of fan I am
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I'm a prove it guy Before I buy it The way you're buying it
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I need to see it So yes I'm not questioning anything that you said
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They got to stay healthy We want to see the young talent Blossom and show Through this evaluation period
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But you got to show me before I believe that you get to 75 wins
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after just getting through a marginal 60 plus last season and dealing with injuries on top of it
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So can you stay healthy for one? Let's start there. Stay healthy
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Then we'll see if you can play. That's the goal there for first. Look, I'm a numbers guy
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I'm an ytics guy. The ytics tell me that they're going to get the 70s, 75 wins
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I'm telling it. You are an ytics guy. When it comes to baseball, when it comes to basketball
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I'm an old school fundamental guy. Like we talked about on Monday. Right, right, right, right
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But when it comes to baseball, yeah, I think the new metrics are good, and I think that they, you know
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it's not going to be a happy baseball season. Like, none of the metrics are like this team will challenge for a wild card spot
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That's not what I'm saying. No, no. But if they get to 70 wins, I think that's a successful, like, that's the floor
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That's a successful season. I'm good with that. I agree with you
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It sounds kind of similar to the Pistons. They had a lot of injuries to start off
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It's kind of rattled a whole. whole lot between with them with their franchise player going down and I mean honestly since then they don't
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have the injury excuse I think maybe the tigers do pistons in 22 they did but not in 2023 and i'm
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excited that's fair my's and scoble are going to go on the 60 day dl next week when pitchers and
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catchers report which opens up two roster spots and there's some people out there that they could
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still sign you got some guys in mind that you like uh well Andrew chafin who we saw last year
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He's still available. Michael Fulmer is still available. So more arms to add to depth
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Jerks and ProFAR is still out there, switch hitting outfielder, which could make a dent
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So who knows? I think there's a couple moves up the sleeve that are going to come this spring
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and it'll be very interesting because, and I've been writing about this on Detroit Sports Nation
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this week, I've been putting out our spring training position battles, so make sure that you're checking those out
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We talked about left field. We've talked about third base. drop the one for the catching position today
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Make sure you're checking those out because they are out and they'll give you the breakdown of all the players
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There's some exciting prospects that I think could make some noise in spring training
28:53
could make some position battles really, really interesting. In fact, I projected one of those prospects as the starting third basement on opening day
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So we will see how that goes. We'll see how it's shake
29:06
All right, man. Well, we'll be back on Monday. I appreciate, you know, you all tuning in
29:10
make sure that if you're watching on YouTube, that you are subscribed and have clicked that
29:14
bell for notifications, wherever else you're at on social media, make sure that you have liked
29:20
and subscribed to Detroit Sports Nation. He's Eric Vincent. I am A.J. Riley
29:25
This is Beyond the Box, and we will see you guys Monday night for another episode