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Ever wondered what happens when you find something on a shipwreck in UK waters? In this exclusive interview with the UK Receiver of Wreck, we uncover the truth about maritime salvage law, reporting requirements, and what you can (and can't) legally keep.
🚨 IMPORTANT: If you dive UK wrecks, this information could save you from serious legal trouble. Share this with your dive buddies.
🔍 WHAT YOU'LL LEARN:
• The legal definition of "wreck" under UK maritime law
• Step-by-step reporting process for shipwreck finds
• Penalties for failing to report discoveries
• How ownership is determined for historical artefacts
• The difference between territorial waters and international salvage law
⚓ Highlights:
0:00 - Introduction
0:44 - Who Is the Receiver of Wreck?
5:30 - How the Receiver of Wreck Works
9:46 - Powers of the Receiver of Wreck
14:00 - What is Wreck?
17:26 - How to report finds
25:06 What happens after a find is reported?
34:00 - Real Life Case Studies!
Show More Show Less View Video Transcript
0:00
Hello again everybody. Uh, welcome to my Deep Wreck Diver YouTube channel again.
0:05
Uh, lots of you on my videos have seen me recovering artifacts from different ships and bringing them up to the
0:11
surface and they've been really important often in identifying shipwrecks. Lots of you have asked me
0:17
questions about whether it's legal to do that in the UK, whether it's ethical. So, I'm really pleased today to have the
0:24
man who can answer all the questions about the legal aspects of artifact
0:29
recovery. This is Steve White who is the receiver of Wreck. It's a UK government
0:34
position. He's going to tell us about the history of his position and his current responsibilities. So, welcome to
0:40
my channel, Steve. Thanks everybody for tuning in to to watch this. I think at um the Dom's
0:46
channel um reaches out to a great number of of divers out there and it was a it's a great opportunity for me to to get to
0:54
broadcast the message uh to everybody in terms of what the role of the receiver of wreck is and and what to do in cases
1:01
where you do remove artifacts or items from from shipwrecks.
1:07
So the role of receiver wreck is quite an unusual one. It's um it it's been
1:13
around for a long time in terms of the law in large relation to wreck and salvage but actually the role started in
1:19
1854 in the merchant shipping act where it was first mentioned but this was basically to do with wrecks that were
1:26
coming on the shore. Um so the government probably losing a bit of revenue at the time decided that they
1:32
would try and put something in place to to basically prevent plundering of these vessels that were sort of wrecking on
1:38
the on the shoreline. So there's tales of sort of church services going on in
1:44
the coast and then the bells ringing out which and then suddenly the pews were emptied as all the villagers ran down to
1:49
the coast which alerted them to the fact that a wreck was there. So that's why
1:55
the role was introduced and back in 1894 when it got kind of got amended
2:01
basically it gave the permission for receiver to actually use um lethal force
2:07
to uh enforce his powers uh and to prevent plundering. Uh so yes we have indemnity
2:14
for violence done by others by the receiver. I've got to ask Steve, do you still have
2:20
these powers? No. I think if you come on to the next slide, it uh it got repealed and in fact
2:26
I came in just a little bit too late uh for this, but you can see from this the
2:31
slide 1926 it got repealed and then we could fire over people's heads um as a
2:36
as a warning. So yeah, we weren't probably in 1926 allowed to kill people. So eventually it wore itself down, but
2:43
um yeah, now we haven't got that sort of power. But that's just another slide which basically shows the 1854 act as
2:52
it's written, but also just an image on the right hand side of of what was happening around the coast of the UK
2:57
with where it was pretty unsafe to to um
3:02
navigate the waters around the coastline. So you were getting uh a lot of wrecks coming up on the rocks. Uh
3:08
obviously things are a little bit better now in terms of safety of navigation. So with the passing of the act in 1854,
3:15
basically it was it was done in order to give
3:20
um owners an opportunity of having their property returned and ensure that any salvage was done legitimately and that
3:26
people would be entitled to a salvage award for actually their honesty in in declaring the items. But it's also
3:34
interesting to know that the receiver wreck is impartial. So we get obviously
3:40
wreck items declared to us uh probably around about 300 to 350 items uh or
3:45
droids reported to us every single year. Um but we have the age of the owners um
3:52
but we are not in anyone's side. So we act impartially between both owner and salva.
3:59
Can I just pick up there on the on the uh the use of the term droid there which is obviously I think one that that mo
4:06
you know lots of people will be unfamiliar with. So just you know if you kind of expand a bit on that Steve
4:12
yeah originated in France I think but it also relates to the droid of admiral which came in around that time. So a
4:18
droid from our purposes is basically a record of that particular dive and what you've taken. So what we ask people to
4:25
do is if they're declaring uh an item, they they when they do declare it, it it
4:30
gets given a unique reference number and that will be called your droid number. It's your case number. But if you do uh
4:37
a wreck on a you dive on say two wrecks in one day, then we would expect two droids. So uh one report for each of
4:46
those wrecks that you dived on. If you're diving over two or three days um
4:51
on the same wreck, then we would expect if it was two days, there'd be two droids, one for the first day and then
4:57
another droid for the second day because it just keeps it separate for us. So, a droid is a is a collection of items. So,
5:04
each droid might have I mean, we've had up to 300 droids on uh on sorry, 300
5:10
items on one droid just because that was all done in particularly one day on an archeological die, for example. So, so
5:18
in terms of items, we probably get about a thousand items declared to us every single year. But in terms of droids or
5:23
cases or individual cases, probably around about 300 to 350. So we are a
5:30
single post. So I am based in Southampton. I have a deputy Andrea Bailey. Um and our primary role is is
5:39
administering the reports of wreck that come in, the droids that come in. Um I
5:44
can devolve some of my powers. So at times I can give the coast guard officers uh the powers of the receiver.
5:51
So I'll just go into a little bit in terms of how we work.
5:57
So the law in relation to reconcile is covered in part nine of the merchant
6:02
shipping act 1995. There's been several amendments. That's the last amendment. Um, the thing with the Merchant Shipping
6:10
Act 1995 is that although it addressed or changed the language behind it, it
6:16
didn't really change the law that much. The Merchant Shipping Act, as I found
6:22
and taken over the role in sort of like late 2023 is it's only around about 15
6:28
pages long, but there it's it's some of it can be open to interpretation. Now I think that over the last few years I've
6:35
sort of determined what the law means but it sometimes it is questioned by salvage. Um but I do have those answers
6:42
hopefully. So the reason why it got amended in 1995 is because it brought in the salvage
6:48
convention of 1989 and that basically reinforced the claims that salvage must be for the safe return
6:54
of the property to the owner and that salvage fee were awarded based on the criteria set in article 13. So yes, it
7:02
incorporates the first page of part nine of the merch shipping act incorporates the salvage convention 1989. Um and this
7:10
is basically to ensure that that salvage do things properly. Uh they do that for a particular purpose or benefit and that
7:17
uh there's a mechanism in place to be rewarded for that. So the recovery of irons from shipwrecks and shoreline uh
7:25
basically has to have a useful result and it has to be done uh in a way that
7:31
safely recovers or saves that property. So this doesn't necessarily which is one
7:36
of the big sort of myths and conceptions uh that we get is that it has to be for the benefit of returning the property to
7:43
the owner. It's not for the benefit of putting something onto your mantle piece or finders keepers. Most of the wrecks
7:50
out there will have an owner and if it's within 12 nautical miles then the wreck item does become property of the crown
7:57
and it's down then to the crown to dispose of that. So one of the things and misconceptions is that I found I get
8:03
to keep it. It's not quite the case. Once you declare it the receiver will look into ownership and if there is no
8:10
owner the chances are you'll probably get that item in l of a salvage award if it's not valuable or historically significant. But you can't just assume
8:17
that because I found it, I get to keep it. In in kind of real layman's terms,
8:23
Steve, the the kind of the the sequence of events is somebody owns some
8:28
property, somebody loses it on the seabed, however that happened, a diver or somebody else finds the item, brings
8:36
it to the surface, tells you about it. You then try and figure out who owns it.
8:41
And if you can find who owns it, then there's a negotiation takes place over
8:47
salvage, i.e. how much the salva can can legitimately claim for it. Um, and if
8:53
you can't find an owner, you decide what happens to it basically. Yes, that's right. So, if there's no
8:58
owner within 12 reverse the crown. So, and I will dispose of the property on behalf of the crown. Um, and I'll come
9:05
on to in later slides in terms of how we factor that in and what what our role is in relation to that. Outside of 12
9:11
Nordic Commands, the crown doesn't get a say in it. Although I can decide on on ownership.
9:18
So the next slide is around our duties and and this is to encourage salvage to take actions towards preservation of
9:24
wrecked vessels and the lives of shipwreck persons, prevent plundering and reuniting property with owner which
9:30
is um the main aspect and obviously dispose of of that property. This is just an interesting slide just to show
9:36
the sort of powers that the receiver has. So we can detain vessels. Um one of the
9:43
interesting ones on there is the right of way across private land. So, in order to recover property and prevent
9:49
plundering, we've got the right away to cross private land, which was something I'm a former police officer. Uh, and,
9:56
uh, you know, some of these powers were applicable to police as well. Um, seize, detain property, search vessels, and
10:04
demand the immediate handover of wreck materials. So, those are all the powers that are covered under part nine of the
10:09
Merchant Shipping Act. I've got to pick this up, Steve. Um cuz people obviously uh you know when they
10:16
heard that a former policeman was becoming the receiver of wreck there was lots of eyebrows lots of eyebrows raised
10:21
out there and you know how how useful do you think that that your background has been in this role? Um
10:29
it's been invaluable to be honest because you've got to
10:34
so there's a process behind everything and also we are public facing service. So so we are dealing with the public on
10:40
a regular basis although it's a a small proportion of the public that that are regular divers um we are still pro
10:47
providing a service which is what I did for 30 years in the police force but it's also about managing that process.
10:53
Now, um I think it's fair to say that the receiver
10:58
of wreck um over the years gone past has has struggled to
11:03
keep on top of the amount of joints that are being declared. Um I think in the last two years we've reduced that number
11:11
down to uh a much more realistic level. We're now in a position where we are able to resolve on ownership within a
11:18
year. um and people are getting items close to them a lot quicker. Um and a
11:24
lot of our backlog now we're going through some of the historical cases that have got some legal challenges to
11:29
them. But certainly my background in the police has enabled me to manage those processes and deal with policy a lot
11:35
better. But also the role it's unique in terms of I have to be a lawyer in terms
11:40
of a legal expert expert. I have to be a chief negotiator. Um I have to know the law backwards. Um,
11:49
so yeah, so I think there's a lot of similarities and and being a former detective sergeant is is really helped
11:55
me in in terms of getting into this role. Fantastic. And but it's a big steep learning curve as
12:01
well because, you know, prior to getting into this role, although I had a fascination like all kids do with shipwrecks and and history and museums,
12:09
um, it's been it's been a very steep learning curve. Yeah. I guess this isn't a kind of area
12:14
of law that most policemen get involved with very much. Um, and I just want to say, Steve, as somebody who has had a
12:20
lot of droids, both kind of current and historic ones, closed really quickly. Um, on behalf of, you know, all of us
12:27
out there who who have had that, I'd just like to say thank you very much because it is, you know, it was a gripe for a very long time the whole uh thing
12:34
where, you know, people would say my droid hasn't been closed in 12 months, etc. So, to to get them done so quickly
12:39
is really nice. And you know I I I think am I still the record holder for droid
12:44
closure? What the fastest one closed? Yes.
12:49
Yeah. I mean that's I mean that's the good thing about some of the pressures we bought in in terms of we've now got a
12:55
big database of who owns what wreck. So quite often if people declare items of wreck, if that wreck is known, we all
13:01
know straight away who the owner is. It could be a private individual. It could be department for transport. So, um, we
13:08
don't have to then start doing that research over and over again. We've got all of our profiles, uh, more or less up
13:13
to speed with with who the owners are, the inquiries we've made to establish that ownership. So, by getting that up
13:19
to speed, it allows us to close joints a lot quicker. And so, yes, you you you had one of those where we knew who the
13:24
owner was. It resolved within the same day. And yes, you got it resolved. I think it was within that day or the second day.
13:30
Yeah. Yeah. It was super super quick. Yes. Um, absolutely incredible. So, thank you very much. Anyway, that was a
13:35
bit of a bit of a digression. So, I get asked this question quite a
13:40
bit and we get a lot of emails coming in about uh things they find on the on the shoreline. Uh what is wreck?
13:48
Um it's anything that comes from a vessel, uh hovercraft, uh an airplane
13:53
that's in the sea. So, it's all wrecked from the sea that's been washed ashore, but it has to have come from a wreck.
13:59
So, we get this question a lot with people finding stuff on the seashore. You know, it could be a sword. Now, a
14:06
lot of our our shoreline is uh receded uh quite a bit with a lot of landfalls
14:13
and there were potential cemeteries, bearing points up on clifftops that have now fallen down onto the shoreline. So,
14:19
it's not definite that it is wreck. It's come from a from a vessel. So, it it may
14:25
well be a landbased find. Um so what we do is we also encourage uh finders to
14:32
report them to the local museum whether it be a a local findation officer. So
14:37
it's recorded both as a landfind and a sea find because we we can't say
14:42
definitely it is wreck but the main thing from this it has to come from a vessel. Um and just to remind people
14:49
that it's it's up to the high tide mark. So even if you're walking along the beach and you find a brooch or something
14:55
along those sort of lines, you you still have to report it legally if you want to keep it eventually.
15:02
So as somebody who dives um quite a long way offshore quite a lot, the the last
15:07
bullet the last bit of this is interesting as well. International waters landed in the UK. So that's I
15:13
guess stuff outside the 12 mile limit but brought into the UK. Yes. Yeah. So, so they still under
15:19
section 236 of the merchant shipping act, they still have to be reported to the receiver of wreck. Um, and then we
15:26
will deal with that as we would do with the rec within 12 nautical miles except for the crown wouldn't get titled to
15:31
that to that that item. So, you're right, most of the technical divers like yourself are diving on wrecks that are
15:37
far out to sea. Um, but yeah, once they're bought into the UK, they have to be declared.
15:42
And do economic exclusive economic zones play any part in this? There's kind of
15:47
like a line, isn't there, between England and France in the middle of the channel and between England or Britain
15:53
and Ireland in the Well, there is, but no is the short answer to
15:59
that. There's nothing within the Motion Shipping Act, which which talks about the EZ. It talks about United Kingdom
16:05
waters, which is determined to be 12 nautical miles. Um, but it also says anything outside of that has to be if
16:11
it's bought into United Kingdom waters has to be declared. So, so no, the EZ isn't mentioned at all, but you could be
16:17
diving in Bermuda. Um, but if you bring that item back into the UK, you then have to declare it. Uh, this is a good a
16:25
slide in terms of what the legal definition of of wreck is. And you'll often hear this talked about in terms of
16:31
flatsom, jetum, derelict, or lagen. They've all got particular meanings. I won't go what all the meaning mean
16:37
meanings are but the main one that we deal with is derelict which is property that has been abandoned without hope of
16:44
recovery by the owner. Um so so most of the wreck items that we get come under derelict and you'll see and I'm sure Dom
16:51
you'll probably recognize the image in the bottom left hand side of there is is an item of wreck. It's it's it's
16:57
something that was on a vessel that went down uh abandoned by its owner. So that
17:02
becomes Derek. I do recognize it. It's it's currently soaking in fresh water in the uh to to
17:08
try and get as much salt out as possible. But yes, I thank you. So again, another question, how do you
17:14
report it? So obviously most divers are aware of this now, but
17:20
we do have a a website and a a portal on the gov.uk website. Similar to applying
17:26
for your your tax renewal on your vehicle really. You you start the process by hitting the green button on
17:32
the right hand side and it takes you to a form to to start filling in and that comes straight onto our database. So um
17:40
we answer and we send an acknowledgement letter within 24 hours unless it's on a Saturday or Sunday be it first thing
17:46
Monday morning but yeah you'll get an acknowledgement letter uh from us within
17:51
24 hours which will uh acknowledge the fact you've reported it and the item that you've reported. One thing I would
17:58
say about um reporting online is they will ask you for a photograph of it. Um
18:03
we're trying to amend the front of that just to basically warn people that the the image has to be less than 5
18:09
megabytes. It's similar to most government websites now in terms of you
18:14
know smart cameras now um can take very detailed photographs and the size of
18:20
which would overload a lot of our systems. So, um, yeah, it's worth noting
18:25
before you start that that you won't be able to finish it until you download that photograph and it just has to be under 5 megabytes. We still occasionally
18:33
accept the paper reports if you go on to the website. Um, you will have the opportunity to download a PDF version of
18:39
it um, and send it by post. But what happens then is you fill it all in, it comes into me, then I've got to
18:45
duplicate exactly what you've done, which takes time. Um, so if you can do
18:50
it online, it saves us a lot of work. Um, and you can always follow that up by an email into us with any additional
18:56
information that you might have or if the f and if you got additional photographs because you can only upload
19:01
one. If you got you can send it by email to us. Um, but we'll always respond to any emails within 24 hours as well. I
19:08
have to say I love the online system, Steve. It's massive improvement my view
19:14
and the fact that you can go in there see all your previous droids and them and just
19:22
I guess it's the way these kind of processes should work uh in the 21st century isn't it so uh absolutely I get asked this question a
19:29
bit as well in terms of why do we require image of of the items
19:35
um a lot of the backlog of our droids were done because we didn't have images and So if someone declared the fact that
19:42
they had uh say for example a ship's bell um we would want to see that bell
19:48
because we would have to contact potential museums that the museum might be interested in acquiring it and they would ask us for a photograph so they
19:55
could assess it. Um you also um like to show an owner
20:00
potentially. So the owner might want to have a look to see if they want the item returned. So we need the the image of
20:06
them valuations. So they will come into play later on. Certainly if there's a salvage fee required for it, we'd
20:14
probably have to get some valuations. And because we're one post in Southampton and I cover the whole of the UK, Scotland, Northern Ireland, and
20:21
Wales, there's a lot of traveling on my part to collect items. So photographs really, really help. And you've got to
20:27
remember when there was uh many receivers dotted around the country, they could be taken into the local
20:34
receivers's office who could have a look at that item and take notes and and and mark things down. But in today's
20:40
technology, we we do require a photograph. It doesn't say it in the Merchant Shipping Act, but in order for
20:46
me to do my job properly and have a look at either selling that item uh to a museum um or just getting some expert
20:53
opinion on that item, I do need a photograph. Um and to be fair, I I would
20:59
say probably 99% of the divers do supply photographs now. Um so that's why we require the images.
21:06
And are you going to talk later on about providing to museums because obviously that's Yeah. Fantastic. that that is a I
21:13
think a thing that lots of people would like to take probably more advantage of than than currently currently happens.
21:20
Yeah. Another question we get posed quite a bit is why do we need the exact location
21:27
um of the recovery? Um there's a few reasons for that. Again, I
21:32
get argued that it doesn't say that I have to do that in the merchant shipping acts, but you've got to remember that the main primary role with the
21:38
introduction of the salvage convention is that the role of the receiver is to
21:44
reunite property with owner and we do rely on mapping quite a bit. We we use different software. We use Rexite EU uh
21:51
as as one of the main things which which lets us know what wrecks are in the vicinity. So 6 milesi south of Fmouth
22:01
doesn't really help us when there's a number of wrecks there. We need to know the exact coordinates. Um and this is to
22:08
verify first of all whether it's inside or outside 12 nautical miles. So tell us the location. We can then know cuz
22:14
they're treated slightly differently. We obviously plot the finds on a map which
22:19
um basically shows us what wrecks are in that particular area. But not only that, but it also shows us what other fines
22:27
have been in that particular area. So you could be diving on a wreck and bring something up from an unknown wreck. But
22:33
actually, we had the bell declared to us a year ago. So we know what that wreck
22:39
is. It just hasn't been acknowledged yet because the finder of the bell didn't want it to go on to Rex EU or to UKO. So
22:46
we get a better idea of what's coming up from what particular area. Um but yeah, I think all locations that
22:54
are provided to us because there's again a lot of protectiveness around wrecks, um people don't want other divers
23:00
knowing where they've dived. None of the information provided in terms of location is ever shared on any freedom
23:06
of information reports or with any other government bodies. Um I've been asked for that location data a number of times
23:13
and successfully been able to refuse that on the basis of that confidential information. um that I need to do my
23:19
job, but I wouldn't get the salva's agreement to provide it if I was to share that that information. So yes,
23:26
locations are provided in confidence, but it just now enables me to find an owner uh to reunite property with owner.
23:34
You probably know this, Steve, but I think it's probably worth just mentioning also chatting about is divebo
23:41
skippers often won't tell the divers where they're diving. Um, so, so I mean
23:47
a good example actually is the uh the the item of mine that I just show that
23:53
you showed earlier on came from wreck called the Kingsbridge. Um, I don't actually know where the King's Bridg is
23:59
and I've obviously had that discussion backwards and forwards with with Andrea because the um hasn't shared that
24:06
information with me. So um it's kind of it can be trick put divers in a tricky
24:12
position that one. Yeah. and and what I'd advise in those circumstances is to provide me with the
24:18
details of the boat skipper um and I'll contact the boat skipper direct to try and find out where he was diving. Um I
24:24
need to do a lot of work and a lot of the outreach I'm doing is around dive clubs going to speak to them as well as
24:30
boat skippers as well and trying to educate them in terms of look I need to know the location because otherwise it's
24:35
preventing me from doing my job and then I potentially can't give something in lure salvage if I can't guarantee where
24:40
that's come from. So, um, yeah, there's still a lot of work to do on that basis,
24:46
but I'm hoping over the next year or two that I'll start spreading the word a bit more and that some of these boat
24:51
skippers will start trusting the receiver in terms of not giving those locations out to anybody. So, this is just a note in terms of what the
24:57
receiver does. So there is a statue year 12 month u or
25:02
the a year and one day law that people refer to a lot of the time which um
25:07
tells us how quickly an owner has to be established. So an owner has got to establish their claim to the rep within
25:14
a year and one day. Now quite often if it's within 12 nautical miles and we don't get that reply we get a lot of
25:20
finders saying well you haven't found anything for a year day you got to give it to me. Well, it's not quite the case
25:25
because it still then belongs to the crown. So, the crown still has to decide on what they're going to do with that
25:31
item. Anything over £5,000 has to reported to
25:36
Lloyds of London. Um, the wreck is usually held by the SA on indemnity to
25:41
the receiver. We haven't got a massive warehouse to take in all articles of
25:47
wreck. We'd be absolutely swamped. So, um, everything's on a case- by case basis, but generally what we'll do is
25:54
we'll ask the finder to keep it safe until they hear back from us. Now, I am aware that we've had droids sometimes
26:00
open for 12, 15 years, which is totally unacceptable. Um, but um, I think we've
26:08
made massive strides to try and ensure that we do dispose of property or or make a
26:13
decision on property much much quicker than that. Um but yeah so there is an expectation that that the finder will
26:20
keep it safe for that particular year. Of course I have got the power to have it delivered uh but that would cost the
26:26
receiver money and and uh in terms of conservation and and keeping that safe. Um and uh we also do a lot of research.
26:35
So we've got access to various databases that will try and find out who owned that vessel or whether that vessel was
26:42
insured by somebody whether the insurance was paid out. But there's also a difference between whether it's a item
26:48
of cargo, a personal possession, or whether that's part of the ship's fixtures and fittings.
26:54
Um, if it's of historic importance, I'll often seek advice from experts, and I've
26:59
found experts in clay pipes, um, and foreign jugs. Um, so yes, so um, we have
27:06
got a wealth of information and people that we would trust from sort of different museums that would give us expert advice on items.
27:12
And the thing is that we will always take the sellers's wishes into consideration. That doesn't probably always seem to every diver that we do
27:19
that. Um many divers want items to go into their local museum, but it also
27:25
depends on what the owner wants with that as well. Good example be with mod where the mod will often want as a first
27:32
port call item to go into the National Museum of the Royal Navy. However, the diver might want it to go into the local museum. So I have to sort of try and um
27:41
be independent in that view and try and negotiate the best I can for both the salva and the closure and outcomes. So
27:49
uh so the year's passed it's been on my desk or in my database for the year and
27:54
then I have to negotiate a potential salvage award or return of the item. Of
27:59
course as you know Dom that can be done a lot sooner than the 12 months. If I can identify an owner within a day then
28:04
I can get that closed very very quickly. But a lot of wreck comes from an uh say
28:10
an unknown wreck uh say uh 26 milesi offshore in which case then if no owners
28:18
come forward within uh a year then it'll probably be awarded to the finder um in
28:23
li of a salvage award. If an owner's um found then what we try
28:29
and do is negotiate. So um we'll obviously look to get valuations done on
28:35
the property. So, if the finder is insisting on having a salvage award for that, we would get that item valued.
28:40
We'll probably do three valuations. If the valuation costs money and hopefully we can we we've got a few sort
28:46
of people that will give us free valuations. We just a start point on what the value of that item is and then
28:51
we can go to the owner and to the finder to try and seek the best solution in terms of what that salvage fee should
28:57
be. Uh the entitlement to a salvage award
29:02
acknowledges the finder's service to the owner. So this is a reward for honesty really and and uh declaring the item for
29:10
the good of returning that to the finder keeping the item safe and in the best condition it can be that the owner can
29:15
have that back. the criteria set out in terms of how much salvage fee you'll get for an item
29:23
is set out in article 30 in the salvage convention um and it talks about there's
29:29
a list of of um different criteria and it could depend on the skill of the
29:35
salva it could depend on the danger and the risk that was posed to the salva so
29:40
there's a number of criteria that come into it so I suppose a way of looking at it is if you walk along the beach and
29:46
you pick something up and you take it home and you declare it. How much skill have you provided and training have you
29:53
got to to do that? What was the risk that was posed to you in doing that? So, for someone jumping onto a burning
30:00
vessel um in really rough seas and rough weather and putting their lives in
30:06
danger, you're looking at, you know, probably 90 to 100% of the award,
30:11
whereas actually walking on the beach and picking something up probably doesn't entitle you to that much. But
30:16
what I can say is that you can never have an award that's more than 100% the value of the item. Even if your costs
30:23
are in terms of diving, higher the boat.
30:28
That doesn't really come into it. It comes down to what the value of that item is. And you can't have an award that is more than the value of that
30:34
item. um and any expenses incurred by the receiver in terms of valuation costs or
30:40
if I have to go and pick it up, the time that I spend doing that that can be recovered from any valuation um figure
30:47
as well. So, we don't really like selling items. The the merchant shing
30:53
says that unclaimed record shall be sold by the receiver. We don't we we we generally give things a little salvage
31:00
unless the item is worth so much money that that really we'll probably then have to sell it.
31:08
Just out of interest, does this happen often? Uh which bit the um you know salvage awards.
31:17
Yes. Um there are times where people do demand a salvage award. I mean, if you
31:22
look at some cases, the the Talava silver hit the news uh 2024, I think the
31:30
judgment was done on that, but that was 2,600 bars of silver worth around about 50 million pounds. Um we have I've
31:38
negotiated fees over um work boats that were recovered from the shoreline worth
31:44
say 5060,000. um and finders declaring uh that they
31:49
want money for the return of that vessel. Um and uh we we do still have
31:56
issues. I mean, I even recently had a port hole that was declared to me that was probably valued at around about
32:02
£300, but the finder thought it was worth a lot more than that. The owner saying they want it back and aren't
32:08
going to be paying more than than £200 for the item. So I do have to sort of
32:13
act as a a mediator really between owner and salv over what that fee should be.
32:19
Tell you what must be a lovely port hole to be worth £300.
32:25
Yeah, very very shiny. But um but yeah, those are the sort of sort of things that I have to sort of act as a
32:31
negotiator for and try and mediate uh and put the people's expectations in terms of what they are likely to get. I
32:38
can't determine what that fee will be. I can't set it. So, I can't say, "Well, okay, the item is worth £50,000. You
32:46
need to pay £30,000 to the finder." I can't do that.
32:51
All I can do is really negotiate and look at what a fair settlement should be that both parties agree to. If there is
32:57
a a real dispute between both of them, the only person that can decide on how much that fee is going to be as a court.
33:06
Um, these are just some of the common fines that we get. Obviously, ship's bells, as as Dom educated me uh about is
33:15
uh you find a ship's bell, you've you've got to drop the skipper's pants and kiss him on the ass,
33:21
I think, is right, isn't it? Yeah, that's I'm not sure it's entirely
33:26
universal, but it's certainly it's certainly certainly Yeah, some skippers
33:32
insist on that. So, uh, but it's it's that's the kind of, you know, other than, I guess, you know, gold and
33:37
diamonds and stuff, that's the thing that all divers of finding is it is it bell. Yeah. Bells, makaker's plates, anything
33:44
that would identify that wreck. And, um, you know, I I appreciate that. That is
33:49
probably the the main thing that that divers are looking for apart from treasure. But the common things we get
33:54
crockery, uh, glassware, spoons, ships, lamps, telegraphs. Um, we get a lot of
34:02
of of those items. They're the sort of most common items that we get declared to us.
34:08
Probably not so many of these though. No, but we still get quite a few. A lot of dredge companies uh submit uh bits of
34:15
aluminum frame uh to us. But one thing that's that most people don't realize, if you're recovering items from
34:22
aircraft, they come under the protection of military remains act or pomra. So they will be protected. You can't be
34:28
given those in L of salvage. Um they will probably have to go to a museum and they are protected. The if you're
34:35
knownly diving on an item that is protected the Navy or sort of the mod
34:40
basically uh are the key stakeholders on that and they can take out prosecutions on people that remove stuff from from
34:46
protected wrecks. But it's just to re remember that that all items from aircraft do come under the protections
34:52
of military mains act. Um this is just some items from say the holes well but
34:57
we've got a number of historic and protected wrecks all around the UK waters and these are the sort of archeological
35:04
stuff that we get back that we try and find homes for in in museums.
35:09
So I mean just talk us through what we've got here Steve. The sort of things that we get from the protected Rex are going to be coins. Um
35:17
we get dinars. We get all sorts of uh different sort of coinage from these wrecks. We get obviously jewelry from
35:24
those wrecks, but some of the things around how the ship is constructed. We get wooden dead eyes um uh and we get a
35:32
sense of how people lived in those historic times and what they were taken on board vessels. So from an historian's
35:38
point of point of view, it's it's it's fantastic value because they just want
35:43
to learn as much as they can around the techniques and ship building around those times and the sort of property
35:48
people were taking with them. So yeah, th those historic wrecks are this is a
35:54
slide on just unusual finds um
36:00
uh to some extent. So for example, you've got um a gas mask. The the item
36:06
in the middle is a funny enough, it's a beer vat um that got washed out to sea. So it got declared to us, but it
36:13
wouldn't necessarily become wrecked because it isn't from a vessel. Um, you've got uh an elephant tusk. Now,
36:20
that gave us sort of some issues around that because the merchant shipping act says that the receiver shall sell items
36:27
of wreck that are unclaimed. It's very very difficult to sell ivory. In fact, I'd be breaking the law if I did. So,
36:33
that gave us a a few issues. Um, museums don't tend to like to take um items of
36:40
ivory because there is some um
36:46
connection with the slave trade um uh which is a quite a sensitive issue for
36:51
some. So I've got to ask I've got to ask Steve what did you do with the tusk then? What happened to it?
36:57
Um I've got it under review by a lawyer at the moment. We we made the decision that because I can't give it in L of
37:05
salvage because if I gave it in L of salvage that would constitute a financial transaction. So at the moment
37:11
I've just said you're the finder of this here's the law in relation to site sites
37:18
it's yours I'm not going to be selling that but I can't use the terminology l
37:24
salvage but I am getting some sort of work done on that to give me some definite answer rather than my own
37:31
interpretation of how I should deal with that. I guess situations like that you just kind of wish they hadn't declared it.
37:39
Yeah. Sometimes sometimes you do, but the thing is is once you've resolved on one item like that, it sets the
37:45
precedent for how you're going to deal with other items. So, yeah, a lot of thought went into how we deal with items
37:51
of ivory. Um, but we've got a process now that and a and a standard letter
37:57
wording that we we will send out if someone recovers ivory. But at the same time, legal advice sometimes takes a
38:03
while to come back. So we'll we'll wait for a number of items or a number of things that we've raised with legal team
38:10
to to come back to me so we've got some sort of definitive answer. But you're absolutely right. It's a fascinating job
38:15
in terms of you come into work and you you get a number of emails and you're thinking I've never dealt with this
38:20
before or this situation. Um so yes it does does make it really really interesting.
38:27
Yeah. onto drones, I think, which is obviously, you know, I guess one of the, you know, drones, you must have had a
38:33
lot more of these in in recent years. Yeah. Well, the funny thing is drones, I suppose, if it's if I'm not sure if that
38:40
one was flown from a ship, but again, it doesn't become wreck or isn't it? You
38:45
know, if it's flown from the land, it probably isn't wreck, but if it's flown from a ship, it could be. Um, so yes,
38:52
everything you get makes you think about, is this wreck material? Isn't it wreck material? You've got a a hot tub
39:00
or jacuzzi on the bottom right hand picture there and that actually came off of a a sort of super cruiser that uh it
39:07
it fell off the back of and so that would be wreck. Presumably that's currently in your back
39:12
garden is it? or uh no no no no no not my back gardening but
39:17
um but yeah it's it's um again a lot of things that we deal with
39:23
well nearly everything we deal with is voluntary salvage whereas if you've got an insurance company and you've lost
39:29
items you quite often you'll pay a contractor to come do the salvage operation for you. So although we
39:35
technically we should be notified of commercial salvage we're not. We mainly deal with with voluntary sal
39:42
and the thing in the middle that if anyone's got any ideas that would be that'd be great. But somebody
39:48
found that on a beach. Um don't know if that came from a wreck or not. Um it
39:55
could have some significance, but we get a lot of items like that declared to us
40:00
that you think we don't know what that is. So, um, and quite often I'll reach
40:05
out to museums, um, or, um, archeological bodies and say, "Look, have you got any ideas?" But, yeah, we
40:11
get a lot of stuff reported to us that we just have no idea about. That's a piece of wood with some kind of
40:18
carvings or markings in it and then some rope wrap around the top. Is is that right? Absolutely. Yeah, that's that's exactly
40:24
what it is. And it's probably only about an entire, I think. So it could be just a sailor wittering away something on a
40:31
ship and made himself a a little sculpture. It could have more significance than that. But yeah, we we
40:37
just don't know. Okay. Wow. Okay. Okay. So this is just coming on to
40:44
the offenses that people commit by not reporting um items of wreck.
40:51
So these are some of the laws that I have to consider um around people's
40:58
activity at sea. So you could be diving on wrecks that are protected under the protection of Rex Act. Um I have to look
41:05
at uh UNESCO for example. And although that's not uh ratified by the UK, a lot
41:12
of government agencies and museums are taking that as their policy. that main
41:17
policy is that nothing that is over a hundred years old shall be um bought, sold or bartered. Um
41:25
so that's something I have to figure in even though it's not law when I do get items that are of significant uh age or
41:33
of uh heritage value. I have to look at well although the law says I shall sell
41:40
it, is it right and proper that we lose items of significant UK heritage to potentially an auction site which could
41:46
be purchased by anybody anywhere in the world or do I look at a museum that might have an interest that may want to
41:52
buy it um so I shall sell it to a museum for example. Um so yeah UNESCO does come
41:59
into part of my thinking. Just picking up on that one then. So obviously 100 years old, lots of First World War
42:06
wrecks around the uh you know British shores. Um
42:11
I've dived lots, loads of other people have. And you know typically you know let's say for instance I find a a bell
42:17
on a First World War wreck. All of a sudden that comes into this category. What's um what's the kind of thinking
42:24
you know how does UNESCO influence that then? Okay. So, UNESCO would influence um if I
42:31
didn't find an owner for something, the law in the reckoning salvage law under
42:36
part 9 of the merch shipping act says the receiver shall sell the item and then split the price uh or the the
42:43
profit from that item between the salva and the treasury in terms of the consolidated fund uh depending on the
42:49
proportion that that we agree on. But because the rec the the salvage convention says you shall sell it that
42:57
conflicts with what UNESCO says as well. So in the example you've given quite
43:03
often the wreck is either owned by the mod or it may have sold it to somebody but quite often there's an owner for it.
43:08
So if it's the mod for example we have to consider whether the mod are going to
43:14
be willing to pay a salvage fee for that particular item or whether you're quite happy to donate that item to a museum.
43:20
Now, the simplest option is the donation to museum because it it basically keeps
43:25
that item safe um for generations if it's an accredited
43:31
museum. Uh and I I use that that term. We would like things to go to museums,
43:36
but accredited is obviously our first choice. I think most diaries may be aware of what happened with the Charlestown Museum um in terms of when
43:45
that folded or they sold that and all the items were sold from there. So put in a museum isn't always safe, but from
43:52
an accredited museum, they can't just dispose of property. It will be there for generations and looked after for
43:58
generations. So yeah, we'll always try and get the item donated by the finder
44:06
that might consider that significant. Um, but UNESCO comes into it in terms of my
44:12
power to sell it. There's nothing that says I can't sell it in terms of the law and the law will always trump policy.
44:19
Um, but I have got a responsibility towards UK heritage. I think that's just sitting in a public body and not wanting
44:26
to see something say so so from the victory sold to I don't know Canada or United States or America uh and being
44:33
kept in the UK. The other things we have to think about are things like fraud act. So, lying on
44:40
the form or failing to complete a form can under fraud. Theft, if you're not declaring it, are you stealing it? Uh,
44:46
potentially yes, if you're looking to keep things for yourself without allowing the receiver to try and find an
44:52
owner. Um, firearms act, people removing live ammunition from uh shipwrecks,
44:58
taking them home, and leaving live ammunition in their home. Um we've had horrendous cases of people taking things
45:04
home and trying to take um the sort of like warhead off of a off a shell if you
45:10
like and and blown themselves up. So we've had instances like that in the past. Um so there are a number of acts
45:18
and sections and law that we refer to that we rely on in terms of if we had to go down to that prosecution route. The
45:25
main offenses that we would be looking at from a receiver of wreck is obviously the failing to report wreck. So section
45:31
236 makes it a duty a lawful duty to anybody that finds w material to declare it. Um failing to declare it, you could
45:40
um get a fine. I think it's up to sort of 2,500 per item.
45:45
Um some people will take wreck material out of the UK um to sell it. Uh but
45:51
again, we've got to prove they are looking to go and sell it. So um we get that
45:56
um failing to deliver items to the receiver of wreck under section 237. So if the receiver makes the decision that
46:02
the item is so available that it should be delivered to the receiver or just because the receiver wants that item um
46:10
because of maybe a lack of cooperation by the finder. If you failed to deliver it to the receiver, you can get up to a
46:16
fine of £2,500 and concealing record defacing identifying marks within that wreck.
46:22
that comes with a fine as well. So there there are a number of um offenses that
46:28
can be committed under the motion shipping act.
46:35
I guess there's the the the big one is probably the one down the bottom. Um which is I know not not part of your
46:41
jurisdiction but No, it's not. And I and I get asked about this a lot. Obviously this is
46:47
something set by the MMO. So, we've got a little bit of a common sense
46:52
approach to this. So, um, and I'm not really offay with with the exact wording
47:00
within the MLO, but if something is so heavy,
47:06
say a a telegraph, a bridge telegraph for example, that it shouldn't it couldn't been lifted to the surface
47:12
without lifting gear, then we have got a duty to report that to the MMO. So, what
47:18
I would say is is that if one or two of you can bring it to the surface without lifting gear,
47:24
then that's absolutely fine by us, but we just have to make sure that if you're
47:30
starting bringing cannons up and landing them on on the on the ship and you haven't got an MMO license, then there
47:36
is going to be repercussions for that. Um, but most of the items, I'll probably say probably 99.5% of the items that get
47:43
declared to us, you know, that they could have easily been bought up onto the the vessel by hand uh without the
47:50
year without the need of any lifting equipment whatsoever.
47:56
Thanks. I I can imagine you get asked that a lot. So, uh, I do, but I'm I'm also a realist. Um, I
48:04
know that for the safety of items, quite often divers will look to use some sort
48:09
of bag or lifting gear or something or something small, even for small items to take to the surface. My sort of like my
48:16
test of that is is whether it could be taken up by one or two people together. Um, so what I would say is that if you
48:23
start putting YouTube videos on of you lifting equipment up onto the ship, then
48:30
you know you've you've got to know what the law is in relation to that and that people will see that video.
48:37
And your last slide, isn't it Steve? It is the is the last slide and and I think this is to do with heritage and I
48:43
touched on it earlier around about donating to museums. So
48:49
we we will always try and get finders if it's of of real significance to history.
48:55
We'll try and get a finder to donate it to the museum. The there's an example on on the slide there which basically shows
49:02
the bell from uh the Caran or Shasser number five which was a a mine uh sort
49:08
of subchaser in in World War II that um and I managed to get a museum in
49:15
Normandy and France to take the items and display the items. Obviously the finder was then invited to the museum to
49:22
see the items on display and um was really really happy with the outcome of that. Um, and I think that's the
49:28
important thing to to remember is that sometimes you'll bring things up from
49:35
Rex that could have some real historical value, some real heritage value. The
49:41
museums nowadays are creaking at the seams. They they haven't got a lot of
49:47
storage facilities uh at the moment. They've also very short of money and aren't going to pay a lot of salvage
49:53
fees for anything. Um, so donation is probably what we'd probably look to try
49:59
and do. We will try and get the museum to work with the finder in terms of putting the item on display. It's not
50:05
always possible. I get asked this question a lot in terms of, well, if I if I hand it over, will it go on display
50:11
or would it just go into a storage cupboard? The chances are that that those items are bought out for
50:17
particular occasions or uh themes um but they will be kept in cupboards. But the
50:22
one thing with accredited museums is that they keep those items forever. And one thing that I've encountered since
50:28
taking onto this role is a number of divers that are probably coming into
50:34
their sort of 70s or 80s now that were diving regularly in the sort of 70s and 80s
50:40
uh 1970s and 1980s that they are going to at some point pass away and they're going to leave a
50:47
garage full of items that aren't going to have any provenence to it that are possibly going to be disposed upon by a
50:54
relative um because they won't know the significance of those items. Um, and so
50:59
we really want to work with finders around keeping those items for the nation for as long as possible. So yes,
51:07
donation is is one of the most satisfying things I have in my job because I know that that item is going to be cared for and looked after for
51:13
generations. I have to say um I really grateful to
51:18
the support you gave me in in two items. The first thing was the bell of the HMCS
51:23
Trentonian that obviously went back to the Canadians. And the second thing was the cup that I found on the um hospital
51:30
ship, the Glenn Art Castle that's gone to the Royal Navy and the Museum in Portsmouth. And and I have to say I was
51:36
very pleased with with both of those. So So thank you for kind of facilitating that, I guess. Um the one thing I just
51:44
want to mention though is you you did talk there about uh people who were diving in the 70s and the 80s and you
51:50
know more recently frankly who have who have got stuff that they've not declared and you're absolutely right you know I'm
51:56
aware of circumstances where people have passed away and their stuff has been
52:01
weighed in or has been thrown in wherever and it's it kind of horrifies
52:09
me as as I'm sure it does you and lots of other It kind of brings me on to the question obviously and I know you get asked this one a lot as well but I got
52:15
to put it out there which is that there was an amnesty um to try and capture a lot of this sort of stuff um and to make
52:22
sure it was properly recorded and everything and you know I guess it's do you think there's any appetite to do
52:28
that again? Uh the short answer is no, there's not. Um it took a lot of work to
52:33
do that because you have to get a number of other agencies to agree that. Um
52:39
one thing I have said is that I'd recognize anybody that reported something late that wants an item to go
52:44
into museum that they can do so without fear of prosecution. I'm not going to prosecute somebody for that. But if
52:49
somebody was to bring up two cannons tomorrow and not declare them for the
52:55
next two or three years, then I'm I'm going to probably look to what I can do around my powers around prosecution. But
53:02
what I I know that in the sort of 70s, 80s, 60s when diving was relatively new
53:07
and it was a little bit of a wild west out there, there wasn't the common knowledge there is now or should be. I
53:13
mean, ignorance was probably a bit more defense without social media and the internet, but now there isn't that
53:19
excuse. So, what I would say to anybody that's got those things, declare them now. There's a record of it made. I'm
53:25
not going to be prosecuting you. Um, and and at least that way we can find a home
53:31
for those items in a museum if a museum wanted them or if the owner wanted them returned. So, so yes, there's no there's
53:38
no amnesty and each case will be taken on its own merits, but generally I will not be looking to prosecute anybody and
53:44
and people can reach out to me by email or um by phone and contact me and and I
53:50
can advise them on on the next steps that they need to take to do that. But but yeah, we've had a number. The bell you can see on the right hand side there
53:55
that was recovered from a diver in 1985. uh he wanted the item to go to a museum
54:01
and I facilitated that for him without any fear of him being prosecuted for that because I felt that he was trying to do the right thing.
54:07
Steve, that has been absolutely fascinating. Thank you very much. Um I know almost certainly this video will be
54:13
watched by a load of British divers. Um but it'll all so I'm sure be watched by loads of people um from abroad as well
54:20
who will kind of scratch their heads at some of the kind of you know interesting British ways of doing things. But um
54:26
it's it's really good of you to take you take the time to do this and to reach out and to kind of explain the law and
54:32
all those kind of things. So uh on behalf of everyone watching it, I just want to say thank you. I just want to thank everybody to for
54:38
watching the video and um and if they've got any questions, then yeah, just contact the receiver w office and we can
54:43
we can deal with any of the questions that that you have, but we're always here to to answer you. Many thanks, Steve. That's really
54:49
appreciated. Hope everyone else enjoyed it as well. And if you'd like to see videos where artifacts are being
54:55
recovered and used to help identify ships, there's a whole load of them on my channel and there's a playlist you
55:00
can click on here. I'm sure it goes without saying that they've all been declared to the receiver of wreck. But
55:06
as always, thank you very much for watching. Hopefully you'll like, subscribe, leave a comment, and of
55:12
course, watch another one. Thank you.